Sharing UR With The Pastor (Taking The Plunge)

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yeah, I have had quite a few  "I'll get back to ya's"    Not holding my breath though    :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Jabcat,

Could be the seed.

You might have presented some good verses he vouldn't debunk at that time.
When at home he started his rebutal but got caught in the UR more and more and feels assamed of it  :laughing7:

[martincisneros]

Yeah, I have had quite a few  "I'll get back to ya's"    Not holding my breath though    :laughing7:

I think that those of us who've previously believed in ET tend to generally forget about how strange UR sounded to us when we first heard of it, if we were fairly comfortable with our previous beliefs.  If we had more fear than faith back then, then for the most part we came into it asking everybody that had believed it for a while "Are you sure???"  But unless we're one of those that has the testimony that we always had a gut instinct that was more in the direction of UR, then when we first saw a book, heard a CD, saw a website, or met someone that talked with us about it, this sounded soooooo strange! 

Makes me wonder how much of intellect is an illusion and how much "logic" is simply a matter of cultural conditioning.  Any ETers reading over my shoulder that can't understand what I'm saying about the subject of eternal torment should think about the deception of Scientology and a stack of other cults whose adherents are SOOOOO sure that it speaks the most to their conscience, makes the most sense, answers the most in their lives, frees them in the most ways, yada, yada...

What's a little unnerving about the whole eternal punishment deception is that when you're at last delivered from that and shown the truth of the Universal Restoration that Jesus Christ is the guaranty of, and then you look back on how sure you were that ET was true!  It still messes with my head sometimes that God doesn't reach out only to those easiest reached by ministers of the reconciliation, and to a few exceptional "trophies of grace" like Saul of Tarsus where God simply [allegedly] proves He could save all, and then trash and burn all of the rest for all of eternity.  That Christ's work will be so thorough still messes with my head sometimes!  I can demonstrate it from over 350 passages of Scripture, but it's still exceedingly, abundantly above and beyond all that I could formerly ask or think.

[WhiteWings]

What's a little unnerving about the whole eternal punishment deception is that when you're at last delivered from that and shown the truth of the Universal Restoration that Jesus Christ is the guaranty of, and then you look back on how sure you were that ET was true! 

How do you know you don't live in a illusion right now?
You were equally shure about ET back then...?

[Paul Hazelwood]

What's a little unnerving about the whole eternal punishment deception is that when you're at last delivered from that and shown the truth of the Universal Restoration that Jesus Christ is the guaranty of, and then you look back on how sure you were that ET was true! 

How do you know you don't live in a illusion right now?
You were equally shure about ET back then...?

For me it is different,  the ET message was something I parroted because I believed and honestly hadn't heard any other message.  I heard a lot about cults, etc etc and studied a bit that way.  I don't think I was as equally sure, it was more that no other belief system I had thought about was anything I wanted to be a part of.

Maybe a lot of it at the time was, better safe than sorry logic.   Thats not to speak for anyone else.

With the realization of the UR perspective, and even though there is disagreement within it.  I am deeply and peacfully confident,  that the basic tenants is what is correct.

Gods love, responsibility, accountability and restoration of all things through grace faith mercy and hope.   I don't even begin to doubt any more where before I had many.

[Nathan]

What's a little unnerving about the whole eternal punishment deception is that when you're at last delivered from that and shown the truth of the Universal Restoration that Jesus Christ is the guaranty of, and then you look back on how sure you were that ET was true! 

How do you know you don't live in a illusion right now?
You were equally shure about ET back then...?

Faith. 

I truly love the tone of this entire thread.  I found Willie's first response to be the most soothing ointment of how differences are presented without rebuke.  It was one of the best reads I've seen for a long while.  wonderfully pleasant and I had no idea it was as old as it is until comments were made about it getting dropped.  But it's still so relevant even now as I am still in a denomination that most definitely is not UR let alone dimensional.  Everything that is said is under the grace of God and that's pretty much where I leave most everything.

It's still hard not to focus on how the church is different from a particular topic because the more we grow into this, the more differences seem to surface.

I kind of wanted to post just a couple things about the original references to Revelation.

For one, I totally agree, it's a book of signs and symbols . . .and I also take this to the next step in reading the entire Bible in this light.  And I believe the "that which was, which is, and is to come" is one of the keys to this symbolism.  Check this out . . .

Revleation 1:19
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This is the premise in which the entire book of Revelation is based on.  To take this as literal is to already forget that it's supposed to be signs and symbols.  It's not about what happened, what's happening, and what's going to happen.  Let the Scripture interpret itself . . .and just eleven verses prior to this, it tells you the answer of what it was John was to write.

Revelation 1:8
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Jesus is that which was, which is, and is to come and John is instructed to write that which was, which is, and is to come . . . which is why verse one starts out like it does . . .this is a revelation of Jesus Christ. . . .who is . .that which was, which is, and which is to come.  It's dimensional.

Hebrews 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday (which was), today, (which is) and forever (which is to come.)

It's the same way I see that we're to read Scripture.  Dimensionally.  1st dimension is the yesterday . .it's the literal, historical recordings of the stories and events.  It literally happened and instructions and wisdom was given to a literal generation of people of "yesterday".  1st dimension.

2nd dimension (today) is to take the moral value of the stories of yesterday and apply them to your spiritual walk today.

3rd dimension . . . 3rd is always the most important over the previous two.  And third is . ."that which is to come" it's the unseen not yet revealed to men . . .it's only by "faith" that it becomes made known.  The third dimension is the spiritual dimension, the one we're called to walk in.

Which ties in with this "one day" reference . . .the "one day" is not a time or day to come, it is the same as yesterday, today, and forever . . .it's Christ.  These things will take place in "one day" in a unified Christ.  He is the day . . .

[Doc]

Yeah, I have had quite a few  "I'll get back to ya's"    Not holding my breath though    :laughing7:

I think that those of us who've previously believed in ET tend to generally forget about how strange UR sounded to us when we first heard of it, if we were fairly comfortable with our previous beliefs.  If we had more fear than faith back then, then for the most part we came into it asking everybody that had believed it for a while "Are you sure???"  But unless we're one of those that has the testimony that we always had a gut instinct that was more in the direction of UR, then when we first saw a book, heard a CD, saw a website, or met someone that talked with us about it, this sounded soooooo strange! 

Makes me wonder how much of intellect is an illusion and how much "logic" is simply a matter of cultural conditioning.  Any ETers reading over my shoulder that can't understand what I'm saying about the subject of eternal torment should think about the deception of Scientology and a stack of other cults whose adherents are SOOOOO sure that it speaks the most to their conscience, makes the most sense, answers the most in their lives, frees them in the most ways, yada, yada...

I've had some of the same thoughts about how much of our knowledge is produced by "brainwashing", for lack of a better term. Everyone is a product of his/ her education to some extent; and I've personally found that you have to go beyond what you've been taught by the "system" if you want to get to the truth.

[jabcat]

My brother in law (Baptist, NOT UR - yet) posted in his Facebook that he was not 'reformed' (an un-biblical term Calvinists use).  It caused quite a stir from his Pastor, his Minister of Music and Education, and 2 friends in the "church".  I've listed their comments below, and my response....

The Pastor, Dr. Greever:  "I am so sorry to read [this]. It is interesting that you put this statement in caps, and put three exclamation marks. I wonder what this means. I am trying to not read too much into this, but as one who has been slandered, lied about, and abused for the biblical teachings that I preach, I have concerns. It is ok to not be reformed if you do not see these teachings in Scripture (which is remarkable for those of us who see these teachings all through the Scripture), but it is wrong to speak evilly against people who teach the Scripture faithfully and in so doing teach the doctrines of the reformed persuasion that are God-centered, God-honoring, Christ-honoring, and gospel-presenting. Please do not fall into that category. That is all I ask." [greevercontemplations.blogspot.com]


Friend:  "Sad to think you fear losing those of us who are reformed as friends, don't you think we know you're not reformed?? We love you anyway, but remember, many are called but few are chosen."

Min. of Ed. and Music:  "I agree with Dr. Greever in asking that you not speak evil against those who teach the doctrines of grace, and I, like Michelle, have known you are not reformed. I trust your declaration is based upon a thorough study of the Scriptures and not the opinions of men."

Friend:  "I get so excited when I read Ephesians 1. Wow, it never stops amazing me! I am so thankful that He chose me! Ron, like all of our above friends I knew you weren't reformed!"

Me, the heretic:  "You've said nothing wrong, my brother. I understand how people see predestination. But many miss the rest of the Good News. That Jesus is the Savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY [set aside for a purpose...not exclusively, but especially] those that are believing (I Tim. 4:10)....and that we ARE predestined before the foundation of the world, with God choosing 'the few' in this lifetime, the rest (95% of His creation!) through His Divine Presence, the cleansing Lake of Fire...at which time EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess (joyfully proclaim) Jesus is Master. God works His great plan of redemption through the Ages, not just within the limited time that we ascribe to Him...Predestination, yes, but in the context of Colossians 1:20, ALL things being reconciled back to the Father...every man in his own order...to the consummation of the Ages, when God will be ALL in ALL!
www.tentmaker.org. "searches out the matter" Prov. 25:2.
God's blessing, your heretical Bro-in-law, [James] :)

Don't these guys make some interesting comments?  Don't speak evil, the one gal so thrilled she's one of the 3-5%, I agree with my pastor, etc.  It might be interesting if Dr. Greever got some (loving, GODLY) feedback at his blogspot.

Anyway, I found this interesting.  Honestly?  It made me mad.  But then again, God reminded me, that's all they can see right now, all they're allowed to see right now, so then it's back to "now settle down Jamesie...you're no better".

God's blessing, James. 

[WhiteWings]

That pastor really has his name going for him  :laughing7:

It might be interesting if Dr. Greever got some (loving, GODLY) feedback at his blogspot.

:teaching:

I've read a few of the articles and don't have a clue what he is talking about...
Does he make some point or does he just talk?

[jabcat]

That pastor really has his name going for him  :laughing7:

Ha!  Yeah, I was pretty "greeved" alright when I read it.  You're right, good point.

[jabcat]

I had an interesting thing happen today before I went to WalMart  :happygrin:.  Long story short, I still attend "church" with my wife for now (thus this thread), as she still feels a need to go.  My son also attends.  The Southern Baptist denomination we've been attending tends to harp too much on hellfire and brimstone, and eternal torment.  Wife and son both considering looking around for another fellowship.

I've been feeling my attention drawn toward the Methodist congegration in town.  Went today to talk with their relatively new pastor.  Though neither one of us came right and absolutely clearly discussed UR, here's some things I said that he received very well, then some things he said that I found very interesting, paraphrased, as I wasn't taping  :icon_joker:;


Me; I'm not looking for someone to believe exactly as I do, but yet a place that doesn't major in hell-fire and brimstone and eternal torture; I'm against institutionalized religion, but I know we still have things in common, part of the church, and fellowship is good;   I believe in the finished work of the cross, and the end of the Lord is full of mercy;  Jesus is drawing us all, each in his own order...I believe God's judgment brings righteousness and is corrective...no negative reactions from him at all.

Him; I tell our people not to judge each other, that God's mercy is going to be a lot different than ours;  I don't rule out punishment, I just believe God's mercy is a lot different than we understand it;

Him:  "people don't realize in Matthew that Jesus is talking about a national judgment".  Me:  "the sheep and the goats?"
Him: "yeah"
Me:  "yeah, I just posted on that last week...people take that to mean individual judgments, 'you're going to heaven, you're going to hell'....
Him:  How do we miss those things?
Me:  Man's traditions and "it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter.  God's revealing when and to whom he chooses".
Him:  Looks at me sort of surpised, and smiles.

I found all this interesting, encouraging, perhaps a little confusing as well, as I think about him in the denomination, he appears to wear a robe of sorts when he preaches, probably many of his parishioners probably believe in eternal torment...looked online and their praise band (perhaps an opportunity for my son to stay involved in music ministry) is named ...gulp...Religious Pride...WHA...? :mshock:

Anyway, thought I'd share and that you might enjoy and find it interesting and stimulate some further thoughts.

[martincisneros]

There's a lot of Methodist and Disciples of Christ Churches like that, where the emphasis is upon the Lordship of Jesus, His power to change lives, the benefits of discipleship, and the call to reach the world -- and that's about it with other matters being left to personal conscience and conviction as long as unity of believers is maintained and the community is reached.  Find me a Spirit-filled version where the music isn't too loud, but is good, and that's animal conscious and veg friendly, that offers Scriptural depth, where the people know why they're there and aren't in cliques and I'll move in a heart beat.

[Doc]

Methodists are kind of all over the map theologically, from what I understand. Some are very liberal, some conservative, some in between. I believe Kalen Fristad, who wrote "destined for salvation" (a UR book) is methodist.

The pastor himself sounds very reasonable. Just be aware that not every congregation is completely "on board" with its pastor.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've never looked it up, but I was told by a Methodist minister one time (who was Spirit filled), that the founder of the Methodist church was Spirit filled. I've heard that about the founders of the Quakers and the Shakers, also. If it's true, seems to me that God's Spirit is capable of getting light in between the cracks of the building on occasion.  :winkgrin:

But, that sounded like an optimistic conversation to me, Jab. Blessings...

[jabcat]

Yeah, I thought so Card...pretty interesting, huh?

Quote Martin - "matters being left to personal conscience and conviction as long as unity of believers is maintained and the community is reached.  Find me a Spirit-filled version...offers Scriptural depth"

Amen, I'll let you know, Martin  :bigGrin:.

Doc, in line with your thoughts, a couple other things he did mention were, he teaches "reaching out as Jesus did, touching the 'untouchables', the 'untouchables' coming to him"...teaches "doing things bigger than ourselves...it's not how much we talk about Jesus, but how we live our lives" etc...Also, that "some Methodists are liberal", in context of "maybe that's not so good, so be aware"  :dontknow:.  ...I intend to follow up with him on that, as I personally would not describe myself as liberal, but more unorthodox...IMO, there can be a big difference, because I still believe we ought to know what "thus sayeth the Lord".  :thumbsup:

[Raggedy Anne]

I have shared UR with a number of Christians who had absolutely NO RESPONSE and never brought it up again and who acted like the topic had never been broached.  Do not be surprised if he never mentions it again.   

Anne

[reFORMer]

I have shared UR with a number of Christians who had absolutely NO RESPONSE and never brought it up again and who acted like the topic had never been broached.  Do not be surprised if he never mentions it again.   

Anne

My experience too!

It reminds me a time when I was downtown at a big department store and feeling lonely, even though I was on a crowded elevator.  I immediately spoke up to that effect.  I said, "I'm here downtown, lonely and feel a strong need for fellowship.  Is there another person here who loves God?"  I waited a little and, since nobody answered me, I went on to say, "Well, I'm sorry to find out nobody else seems to know God.  So...let me explain how.  You just ask Jesus' Spirit to come into you and to lead you to where you can accept Him if need be."  At the time and as we stopped at successive floors and people got off, all of them looked right through me, acting like I wasn't even there.  It was rather disorienting.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ReFORMer: so what you're saying is; THEY had one of those "entertaining angels unawares", moments?   :winkgrin:  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Doc]

Yeah, I thought so Card...pretty interesting, huh?

Quote Martin - "matters being left to personal conscience and conviction as long as unity of believers is maintained and the community is reached.  Find me a Spirit-filled version...offers Scriptural depth"

Amen, I'll let you know, Martin  :bigGrin:.

Doc, in line with your thoughts, a couple other things he did mention were, he teaches "reaching out as Jesus did, touching the 'untouchables', the 'untouchables' coming to him"...teaches "doing things bigger than ourselves...it's not how much we talk about Jesus, but how we live our lives" etc...Also, that "some Methodists are liberal", in context of "maybe that's not so good, so be aware"  :dontknow:.  ...I intend to follow up with him on that, as I personally would not describe myself as liberal, but more unorthodox...IMO, there can be a big difference, because I still believe we ought to know what "thus sayeth the Lord".  :thumbsup:

The only thing I was referring to in terms of liberal vs. conservative is the general approach to theology, without making any judgments on either approach. I would say that errors are made at both extremes, however. I'm certainly more liberal theologically than I used to be, which hopefully puts me somewhere in the middle.

My only point really was that Methodists are somewhat unpredictable in their approach; some are more liberal, others more conservative.

[jabcat]

I understand, and that's how I take it  :thumbsup:.  I believe that's surely true.

[jabcat]

I have shared UR with a number of Christians who had absolutely NO RESPONSE and never brought it up again and who acted like the topic had never been broached.  Do not be surprised if he never mentions it again.   

Anne

At this point in my life Anne, I really shouldn't be surprised at anything  :laughing7:.  So you're right, we'll see.