save yourself

[laren]

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


? 

thou shalt save thyself? 

[arcticmonster2003]

Yeah, its seems there are many catch22's in the scriptures, but I have always found my best blessings come when I acknowlege all things, my faith included are gifts from God, and give God the glory.

[SeekerSA]

We know we cannot save our self but I looked up all my translations and most use the save word.  This is one verse where the meaning can be lost out of context.

1Ti 4:12  Let no one despise your youth, but be an example of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Ti 4:13  Until I come, attend to reading, to exhortation, to teaching.
1Ti 4:14  Do not neglect the gift in you, which was given you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the body of elders.
1Ti 4:15  Meditate on these things; be in these things in order that your improvement may appear to all.
1Ti 4:16  Hold on to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this you shall both save yourself and those who hear you.

To me the save yourself is more like save yourself trouble.

The message renders it like this:

1Ti 4:16  Keep a firm grasp on both your character and your teaching. Don't be diverted. Just keep at it. Both you and those who hear you will experience salvation.

Different but the same.  Remember Timothy is already saved but is obviously very young.  Not being a Greek scholar, let us look at the Greek words.

Save G4982 σώζω sōzō sode'-zo
From a primary word σως sōs (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

This is how I read it

Do not feel disqualified about your age, but keep on setting an example, conduct yourself in word, love, spirit, faith and purity.

Until I come, continue what you have been doing, exhorting and teaching. 

Remember, you have a gift in you, it was prophesied over you and the elders all laid hands on you.

Persevere in word, love, spirit, faith and purity, be them, your growth will be seen by others.

Do not despise yourself nor the doctrine, persevere for in so doing, you preserve yourself and others too.


Blessings

[70sevens]

If someone is saved by Jesus, he is saved.
And in him the Christ as Holy Spirit will reside.
Now he now can do Jesus' work, i.e. the salvation of others.
Saved man can do work of Savior, because of the Christ within.

But his 'savedness' will only be confirmed when he actually saves others.
If he can do so, then his 'savedness' will turn out to be true one.
So the saved man's confirmation of his salvation is contingent upon
salvation of others to whom he preaches.

Timothy was saved, he preached gospel to others.
When the others are saved by Timothy,
his 'savedness' is confirmed as genuine one.
Salvation of others is also his.
So Timothy was saving others and at the same time saving himself.
We can love our neighbors as ourselves only when we are in this life circle.

Jesus came.
Jesus is prototype of the saved man.
But His 'savedness' will only be confirmed, when he actually saves others.
Finally HE did so on the cross, and saved the disciples.
Here HE's 'savedness' and being Savior is confirmed.
Jesus was saving disciples and at the same time saving Himself.

[SeekerSA]

Chung

I understand what you are trying to say, but no man can save another man.  If the Father is not part of the equation, then you waste your time expecting results to confirm your salvation as a good witness.  You can only sow seed.

It is Jesus who saves and Jesus came to save not to be saved.

If you look for a prototype of a saved man it is Saul/Paul not Jesus.  Jesus is the Way, not a model of salvation, Jesus never sinned.

Timothy was saved, he preached gospel to others.
When the others are saved by Timothy,
his 'savedness' is confirmed as genuine one.
Salvation of others is also his.
So Timothy was saving others and at the same time saving himself.
We can love our neighbors as ourselves only when we are in this life circle.

No this is wrong except for the last sentence.  The issue was about his youth and not about saving others to save himself.

I can share truth but only the Holy Spirit can make it alive in others.  This is unfortunately a wrong doctrine taught where we are into works.  We are saved by grace so that no man can boast.  The works we are to do is not about preaching the Good News, that is a commission and is summed up in one word GO!  If you can demonstrate the love of Christ in you to others by meeting their basic needs, then your witness is true.  Bible punching someone who has a thirst or natural hunger will not hear what you have to say, meet the immediate need and then they may listen.  Even then, it takes the work of the Holy Spirit to make those words come alive.  We are merely a messenger, not the MESSAGE.

Your view of salvation still demonstrates your choice had something to do with it.  You are in error.  Salvation for all was completed at the Cross, we who are "saved" now merely have our eyes open to the fact, others to whom the eyes have not been opened yet cannot see it.  They cannot enter into the kingdom now.  Only once the spiritual eyes have been opened, can we see and enter the kingdom.

Blessings

[Craig]

Salvation of the soul from the physical death that we all will recieve, is only found through Jesus Christ. There is no processes or work one can do, that will get them the Spirit of Life. Though, while we who believe live, should we not hold on to sound doctrine, we shall find our lives will lack peace, and we in fact will cause many troubling problems for those around us.

Take an example: Jim Jones Jesus Cult. Was he into sound doctrine? How did his hearers end up?

Not everything talking about salvation is talking about the resurrection of the dead. It also means not to spread death to others through your words and actions.

If someone teaches, "The secret of peace is found in accepting your troubles." Well, instead of changing their circumstances, they accept their troubles and get more and more heapped on them. Is that sound doctrine? No. Sound doctrine is, "Give your troubles to Jesus, rest in Him. The secret of contentment is, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." So if anyone teaches otherwise, to sound doctrine, they are giving a burden to themselves and their hearers that they themselves cannot bear!

If someone teaches, "Let us eat, drink and be merry, for this is a gift of God, for tommorow we die." They become inactive, unhelpful, unhealthy influences on others. This is not sound doctrine. Sound Doctrine is, "Bad company, corrupts good character, I say this to your shame because there are people who are ignorant of God." So if you find yourself in the company of those who do not do anything, because they believe they do not need to walk in to good works God has prepared them before hand to do, they then become a burden to those around them and themselves a burden they themselves cannot bear.

Does this make sense?

[Taffy]

Hi Bro...

theres a Missing key in these verses..many LOOK past it...


1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


1Ti 4:2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


1Ti 4:3  Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


1Ti 4:4  For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:


1Ti 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


1Ti 4:6 ¶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.


1Ti 4:7  But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.


1Ti 4:8  For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.


1Ti 4:9  This [is] a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.


1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


1Ti 4:11  These things command and teach.


1Ti 4:12 ¶ Let no man despise thy youth;( as ONE UNDER LAW) but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1Ti 4:13  Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

the GIFT IS HIM


1Ti 4:14  Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


1Ti 4:15  Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.


1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee

At times PAUL seems to talk in circles..Bur he doesnt..LAW v GRACE AND FAITH bro :icon_flower:

[70sevens]

SeekerSA,

1.  1 Timothy Chapter 4 is about the Salvation
In this chapter, Paul is talking about salvation. He mentioned salvation by Jesus in verse 10. 

[1Ti 4:10]
(and for this 'we labor and strive'), that we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Paul now encouraging Timothy to 'labor and strive' for the salvation of others through verse 11-16.
So it is my view that verse 16 should read as the salvation by the Jesus.   

2. Prototype of Saved Man, Jesus
Jesus never sinned. Right.
That's the nature of saved man, born-again man, and Son of God.
Jesus is so from the birth. But HE has come in sinful nature as us.
HE was baptized in the river, which was not necessary for the sinless man.
But he did so and became our prototype of the saved man.
That baptism signifies the death on the Cross. HE went through the Cross, and resurrected.

HE, the sinless man, voluntarily treated himself as sinners to be and to show
the way to heaven to us.
This is the way how the dead man is alive and saved. 
Now in order for us to live and saved, we have to go through this way,
especially the cross that Jesus established.
Having said that, HE really is the prototype of the saved man.
Paul is not the first man who has gone through the cross, but Jesus is.

3. Man cannot save man?
Man cannot save man. Yes, only Jesus will do that. But that is half true.
When you have Christ within, you can do His work, i.e. salvation.
Jesus has given this authority to forgive sins to His disciples.
You will not disagree that sin-forgiveness is the salvation.

[Joh 20:23]
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Paul also is an example.

[Gal 2:20]
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live,
but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God,
who loved me and gave himself for me.

In the churches, he preached Jesus and many were saved.
Of course, not he, but Christ inside of Paul and God has done it.
But in this material world Paul worked as God's partner in salvation,
so it is OK to say that Paul has saved the people. 
In this sense, the saved man can save man.

Quote--------------------------------------
We are merely a messenger, not the MESSAGE.
----------------------------------------------
According to the scriptures,
message changes the messenger to hold message right, and then, the messenger will be sent.
For disciples' case,
it took 3 years to change the messengers so that they may be able to hold the message.
After that process, message and messenger have become one, and that's the way it should be.

This is what Paul said "You are a letter of Christ".
Contrary to your saying, Paul equates messenger with message.

[2Cor 3:3]
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry,
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God,
not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

As for one's salvation and its confirmation by others,
I am afraid that you do not understand me.

4. Salvation Process
Quote from SeekerSA---------------------------------
Salvation for all was completed at the Cross, we who are "saved" now merely have our eyes open to the fact,
others to whom the eyes have not been opened yet cannot see it. 
They cannot enter into the kingdom now.  Only once the spiritual eyes have been opened,
can we see and enter the kingdom.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation for all was completed at the Cross. Yes, but only half true.
Because that is what God has done for us, but we, myself, have to go through
our own cross with Jesus in order to be saved.
Think about Peter, how was he saved? By meeting Jesus and after following HIM for 3 years,
finally at the cross Peter's salvation was achieved.
This is the salvation process that will apply to all mankind forever.

But you are ignoring this process, and you are saying in this line.
"If one day someone realizes (eye opened) that he is saved on the Cross, then he is saved."
As the scriptures say, Peter met Jesus and followed HIM 3 years and then was saved.
What makes you think that we would be saved by only 'thinking about the Cross'.
God/Jesus is not a magician.
Every single mankind who is to be saved has to go through the cross.
Only after that, he is a new creation.

Jesus said,
[Joh 12:24] I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies,
it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

This refers to Jesus Himself at first place,
but this is not one time event eligible only to Jesus.
That shows the life circle which repeats forever.

So we individually are also a kernel of wheat that should produce many seeds in this world.
If we meet HIM, HE will lead us to our cross, and HE will resurrect from the dead within us.
Thus, we can produce many seeds as Jesus did.
This is the salvation that the scriptures are talking about from Genesis to Revelation.

I presume your thinking about salvation represents Univesalists, as well as Traditionalists.
But that thinking is "to try to reap what you did not sow (Luk 19:21)". 

5. Work of God
You keep on saying that as for the salvation we have no choice and nothing we can do about it.
True enough. We cannot touch the life itself; it's God's work entirely.
Not a single word I am saying is against that.

However, when God says to us as now, it's our share to open ears.
If we do so, we will be led by Jesus and will come out of the grave.
So rather than saying error, wrong, fallacy, etc to what was said,
let us open our ears.

[Mat 13:15]
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Finally, I did not mean to object to your post, but it appeared as such.
Anyway,
happy to take this opportunity to show my view about the salvation, even brief.


God bless.

[Craig]

I can guaruntee, SeekerSA has not missed the procesess, I believe he just didn't mention it.

In any case, not everywhere in scripture where it says saved, is it talking about the Salvation supplied by Christ. There is many things we can be saved if we just lived a wise life. We can save embarassement of being wrong, if we had studied something out before hand. We can save ourselves the trouble of having to work extra hard on an assignment because we left it to the last minute, had we take the time we had to work on it when we were supposed to.

Here is what is happening, some here are still seeing through the eyes of a salvation which was conditional on our faith or works and so every point of salvation or saved mentioned in Scripture was always told that it was talking about the ultimate end result of creation in Christ Jesus. By now we should have repented from such view.

We already know salvation is promised to the world, and that hope is sure. We already know Jesus already died on the cross and raised from the dead, and because the dead are raised, we too shall be raised to life, salvation assured.

So now, we should be reading Scripture from a present life view, what is good and holy, what is wise and prudent? We can now save ourselves a lot of trouble, if we just rest in the Lord. Yet, if we do not have sound doctrine, we will be taught we must work for something, that we must strive for something, and that something has been our salvation, which we should know by now is not what we work or strive towards. Sound doctrine will always save the hearers and ourself, and that salvation is not talking about the salvation of the soul in Jesus Christ, but the health and safety of our life while we live it here in the world.

[SeekerSA]

Chung

Craig answered adequately, so I will only addess this.

The whole bible is about salvation not just Timothy.  I see clearer now where you are coming from but although the messenger should ultimately become the message, we fall short.  I do agree with you that we have to have our ears open to further truth, but that does no add to our salvation.  Salvation is not conditional.

We do not find salvation, salvation finds us.

We are to press in, finish the race of endurance.

Blessings

[Redlettervoice]

.
.

If someone is saved by Jesus, he is saved.
And in him the Christ as Holy Spirit will reside.
Now he now can do Jesus' work, i.e. the salvation of others.
Saved man can do work of Savior, because of the Christ within.
But his 'savedness' will only be confirmed when he actually saves others.
If he can do so, then his 'savedness' will turn out to be true one.
So the saved man's confirmation of his salvation is contingent upon
salvation of others to whom he preaches.
Timothy was saved, he preached gospel to others.
When the others are saved by Timothy,
his 'savedness' is confirmed as genuine one.
Salvation of others is also his.
So Timothy was saving others and at the same time saving himself.
We can love our neighbors as ourselves only when we are in this life circle.
Jesus came.
Jesus is prototype of the saved man.
But His 'savedness' will only be confirmed, when he actually saves others.
Finally HE did so on the cross, and saved the disciples.
Here HE's 'savedness' and being Savior is confirmed.
Jesus was saving disciples and at the same time saving Himself.
.
.

I noticed that you said Jesus is a prototype of the "saved" man, and I will
call the "saved" man the IMAGE of the SECOND Man, even the very Lord from heaven,
according to what is written in 1st Cor 15.

This is an "interesting" thread since we have been told by Jesus Christ that
"nothing" shall be IMPOSSIBLE to "HIM" that believeth! I have about decided that it is HIM
that believeth! ha........He did so for us, ON THE CROSS, and does He not do His "Same" works
thru us? And when? Does the mantle that HE is, fall from "us" to the Elisha's of our lives? Or
for those for whom we have prayed? Or just simply to others?

Not because "we" are ever anything or that any of "our" works counted for nothing, but
because He has so wrought in us His Words and His Words are ALIVE and ever flowing?

Hebrews says they are: 9:14

To me, the "blood" of Jesus Christ flows "eternally" ....and how so? By the Spirit. Wherever,
however, it flows from the throne.........and is ALIVE!


Let us rather call this: Can "we" have"faith" for another?

It is His perogative to "enter" into that "within the veil" to bring LIGHT
where there was darkness. He did so in us, and can He not continue it if he so desires in another?

So, in a sense, is it "us" having "faith" or is it HIM exercising the "faith" He had that day He
established His Word forever settled in the Eternal Heavens and thus declaring it somewhere in
some other dark mind? Only just "allowing" us to watch HIM? And really, just answering our prayers.

I agree with SEEKER but I really do see what YOU, 70sevens , are talking on, too.
I think it is in carefully"wording" things right to be sure we realize and know that HE doth the works.

I call it "raising the dead" or "reproduction" and by that I do not speak of casket death raising, but having "faith" for another...........

Jesus "did" say, YOU shall do greater works. Maybe this is one.
Let's call it having "faith" for another.

The "faith" is NOT of the law. Bible says it's NOT!
We are talking here of the "faith" of the Son of God!

We are coming from "faith" to "FAITH" scripture says,
from "strength" to "STRENGHT" ........so many
scripures bear this out.

Moses was faithful in his house, and then he SAT on the Stone that
began the "change" .......and JOSHUA took over and caused the people
to "inherit" their inheritance! The work of the Lord thru Joshua.
Ezekiel did the same thing.
He saw the "destruction" and then later He "divided" the inheritance.
He did not forever have to be
just "one with a lovely song!" having people sit before him to hear what he had to say, but
never doing it. The Spirit took over! and was doing "HIS" works thru Ezekiel! It may be just ONE person that we are to watch HIM do this in, but He leads us on. Oh what a happy day!

Therefore it is a holy thing.......and NOT of the flesh.

Is this not "why" we preach?
Is this not why we write in hope?
that "someone" will hear us? Hear the Spirit
that is in us, and be "quickened" unto LIFE?

Does not God work "thru" us, and does not He
say "Ye shall be desolate until ye say "Blessed is he that cometh in the NAME of the Lord."?
Is this not what the Apostle Paul was saying?

Has not God strove with "me" to "believe" Just simply
to "believe!" ..........that is why I say, I have decided it is HE that believeth and He that doth the works!

It is a gift to begin with, "given." When Jesus was talking of "for the Father showeth
Him all things that He Himself doth" Jesus was saying, "I can do nothing of MYself! What
I "see" or "understand" the Father doing, I do nothing "but" that! Yes! did not He "seeth" that His Father
was a LIFE giver, and did Jesus not say: "I have received a commandment and I KNOW that it's LIFE
everlasting!?" Thank God, He gave all "judgment" unto the Son! The SON became a LIFEgiver just manifesting
the works of HIS Father! No wonder it was said, "This is my Son, hear ye HIM!"

Methinks we are akin to the Isralites who took an 8 day journey in 40 years! ha
Nevertheless, it was all part of God's plan........and they "came out" with GREAT SUBSTANCE!

There is a "saving of oneself trouble as SEEKER said by so following HIM on that one....." so the SON is to be
honored because the Father wanted HIM honored. And Jesus said, "It is the honor that cometh
from GOD alone! I do not honor Myself!" If Jesus didn't, "i" sure don't. Jesus said, "It is MY Father
that HONORETH "ME!" And "we" are told to seek the HONOR that cometh from God only? are we
not?

And so the Father committed
"all judgement" unto HIM! We are sure glad, for "He" exercised that "judgement... unto LIFE" for us all on the tree when He was crucified.

It 'is" written in Deut., "for none shall appear
alone" I think it is talking about the same thing that you are quoting, "70 sevens"........."for you shall
save yourself and those that hear you."

This is all sorta tricky, and God forbid that we think
that in our flesh dwelleth 'any' good thing that can do these feats, but He can do what He will
thru HIS SON, because it is God's desire
that His Son be glorified by Himself performing those feats thru His Son, and nobody will
know who the SON even "is" but the Father Himself, and no one will know who the Father is.
Remember this: Nothing is Spirit but Spirit! It is either God or it is something "saying" it is
God that is not! Jesus Christ Himself is proveworthy! He can "do" ..........we therefore lean on HIM!
Our faith is NOT in ourselves, but in HIS ability!

God so worked in the Apostle Paul that he spoke of "offering up the gentiles that they may
be acceptable" ..........that sounds to me like the faith of the Son working thru Paul.
Then Paul said, "I will not "dare" speak of those things NOT wrought by me making the
gentiles "obedient." He had offered them up, and his faith had been accepted by God for
them.....Isa. 66 speaks "Ye shall bring your brethren for an offering.......and I will "take"
or "accept" of them to be priests and Levites, etc. I think? all this ties in with what
that verse means that you quoted.......it is part of the mystery of Christ.


It sounds to me
like Paul was saying that the act of "making them obedient" was the work of the Spirit
that had not YET at the time he was speaking there been accomplished? ?

But it is never flesh, but only Spirit that can do these things and in the end, He alone
shall be exhalted.

Some deep WATERS here.......and maybe not as much disagreement as
it first seems.

It should be noted "always" that "i" can do nothing, but "I" can do all things'
"thru" Christ who strengthen's me .........and how Paul said, "It is no longer "i" that lives
but Christ that liveth in me, it is Christ that doth the works of Christ. So one wonders
where the yellow went when they brush their teeth with pepsodent? ha Can't you just
hear Jesus singing, "Gonna wash that man right outta my hair."Sorta being funny a bit here
but when He washes us, as His Body, what is He washing OUT? Is it not the "words" we learned
from eating from the wrong tree? And are we searching for the "fountain" of LIFE within us
that has NO cursing in it? But it is the TREE of LIFE!!!! We are His body, that
He thru the word "washes" til the "man of sin" is gone! One day he will be completely gone
and we "shall" enter where He entered, I wonder if that is not the PLACE where the greater
works shall be accomplished. And I wonder also if these "greater works" are not to be done
behind the veil, so as for sure no one is given the glory but HIM?

Since we are joint heirs with Christ, I see that the same works
that were done by Christ are made possible thru our union with HIM and that it is a revolving
circle of Spirit to Spirit reproduction. I hope that was clear as mud! ha I still say it can cause
offence to speak of things "i" can do and yet it is truth to speak of things "I"= meaning the
Christ= can do........for surely only He can save!

I myself have never met the person on the face
of this earth that can "do" what Jesus can "do" but all of the works of the Spirit are done
by God..........."we" can ask! For it is God that works in you both to "will" and to "do!"

The Bible says He is able to do exceedingly far above all we could "ask" or think.........and
I don't know about you, but I can think of some wonderful things. I done read where He said
"He that has a bountiful eye shall be blessed."

Speaking things like this, reminds me of the "yea and a sword shall pass thru thine own heart too, that
the "hearts" of many may be revealed!" You either thought I was just "exhalting" myself or you "thought"
I was expressing "faith" in the Son of God!

And when these "Spirit"works are done thru us,
they shall  only  be done thru LOVE...and BY HIM!
For it is LOVE that never fails. 

Guess that's why He is measuring the
City! Maybe He is measuring His own work done in us.
I don't know. but....  I am seeking to believe for another, myself.

We say we believe in UR but we have to
start with believing for even that "ONE."
I'm still working on that!~ ha

It is not MY desire to appear before HIM "alone." Isn't this how we learn to enter
into REST? Are we not told to "labour" to enter into REST? That, to me, is to realize that it is "HE" that doth the works
and our labour is only to "believe." Whew! What a labour! ha

Waiting on you, Lord!

PS In reading over the last post by SEEKER here, I thought of something.  You know where it says, "Savation is of the
Jews?"  And where it speaks: For he is NOT a Jew that is one OUTWARDLY but inward, whose circumscsion is
by God" .......sounds like it is saying a bit of what is being touched upon in this thread. One thing I know, our "faith"
is to be IN HIM, and not in ourselves, but sometimes we look at ourselves so hard, we are distracted from seeing HIM
who is IN US!

[CHB]

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee

At times PAUL seems to talk in circles..Bur he doesnt..LAW v GRACE AND FAITH bro :icon_flower:

Yes, This is what it is all about. Very Good Taffy.   :thumbsup:

CHB

[CHB]

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee

At times PAUL seems to talk in circles..Bur he doesnt..LAW v GRACE AND FAITH bro :icon_flower:

Yes, This is what it is all about. Very Good Taffy.   :thumbsup:

CHB

Seeker,

Here is what I posted. I believe Taffy is right though, this verse is about law and grace. Wasn't referring to you Seeker, Taffy was the one who mentioned your name. Now maybe I missed something, I don't know.  :dontknow:

CHB

[SeekerSA]

My bad CHB

I see the post was from RLV and not you Duh!

Sorry, I have removed my post.

Blessings

[CHB]

No problem Seeker.  :bgdance:

CHB

[Redlettervoice]

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both

"save thyself"

, and them that hear thee

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LAREN asked the question about "this" verse above to start out with.........

I think this verse is talking about
"continuing in MY LOVE, continuing in MY Word, " ..........


It is NOT
speaking of "saving oneself" by their "own" works....
......neither speaking as the "devil" tried to put "words" into JOB's mind
when the Lord told him, "if" he, that is Job, could do "this or that" whatever is written there, then He, that is God, would confess that
he, Job could "save himself." Job 40:10-14

Talking two different things.  What the "flesh" can and can't "do"
and what the "SPIRIT can!"


.and then I thought of something! It did connect
in MY Mind since lst
Cor 15 says the Second Man "is" the Lord from heaven,
The Heavenly Image, and we know
that Salvation is of the Lord. And the IMAGE we all shall bear.


Then my comment to SEEKER.........
I remembered that it says "Salvation is of the Jews" and then I remembered
that it says "Who "is" a Jew but he who is one inwardly whose heart is circumcised by God?" I put all that together
and walla........ha
I came up with reproduction ..........like every image brings forth after it's own kind, even the heavenly!

Either God reproduces
HIMSELF in the JOINT HEIRS of Jesus Christ, or else He just "awakens" what already is! In one and then in another! That Spirit
that He has given us is a worker in the heavens! Is He reproducing Himself or is He just awakening us? What do you think?

My words were meant to build "faith" in God, not in any man. Hope that clarifys that.



And then about the time I thought this needed some correcting words for understanding, I clicked this morning and saw Seeker and CHB
again talking and read ONE verse: about the law being given by angels.  I thought maybe CHB was really meaning to say "spoken" by angels
as is written in Hebrews 2.  And you guys have "added" to my understanding ..........isn't the Lord good?  See, I was thinking of "how much
HIGHER is the Word of the SON........higher than "angels" as is written there in Hebrews ONE!  For unto which of the "angels" said He at
any time........? and going on there, it was to the SON that he saith "Thy throne, O God is forever and ever!  A scepter of righteousness is
the sceptre of thy Kingdom............Oh how I love the book of Hebrews!

In reading on there in Hebrews, I even saw the word
"confirmed"
used in that scripture...
and that goes back to what I was hearing  in 70's words..........and what I thought he was
talking about......where is he? he started talking and then just took off. ha

This is blessing me tho, it says there in Hebrews "the word was CONFIRMED unto "us" by
those that "heard HIM!"  So we are talking "angels words" and "ministries" and SON's Words,
so much higher.  See that?


It is a "confirmation" of the SPIRIT's Words, not the flesh words, or the words even of angels.
A confirmation of the Son's Words, who is the express IMAGE of His Person!



1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

How important to "continue on" ...........to be "asking" for LIFE ...........I can't explain what
I am hearing. I hope it is helping by what I am trying to share here.

I hope this has clarified this thread somewhat,  has for me.

Thank you all for "being there."


.

[SeekerSA]

Either God reproduces
HIMSELF in the JOINT HEIRS of Jesus Christ, or else He just "awakens" what already is! In one and then in another! That Spirit
that He has given us is a worker in the heavens! Is He reproducing Himself or is He just awakening us? What do you think?

Hi RLV

I see it much the same way in a deeper level.  I have shared before the reproduction was a delegated authority given to us with the dominion authority.  I believe that each new child is born, he/she receives the breath of life from God.

I was having a discussion of this exact same thing earlier of the 1st Adam and 2nd Adam Christ, I will post what I saw and that the breath of Life (which is Jesus) is given to all, it also symbolises our puny lives as a breath or whisper of smoke in the grand scheme of things, it is a sample, we breathe then on our own till the Breath of Life (Jesus) is revealed (Spirit) and that which is Spirit is eternal.

So by His delegation of perpetual creation, He in fact creates Himself, how else can we claim to be made in the image of God.

Looking symbolically at Adam = Christ, Eve = man taken out of Adam, when we leave our father (God) and mother (Eve) we shall cling to our wife (Jesus) and become one flesh again.

There are just so many hidden pearls we find when we search for them.

Blessings

[70sevens]

I see in reading "Save yourself" in 1Ti4:16 opinions vary :

1. Save Trouble

Some see "Save yourself" as "Save trouble".
But the scripture is always telling us the salvation of Jesus.
So it is prudent to read the scripture verses in that line.
Paul said to Timothy,
"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them"
What for Timothy is requested to take heed and continue,
if not for the salvation by Jesus.
We need to refuse old wives' tales really.

2. Law vs Grace

Some construe Timothy's youth (1Ti 4:12) as one under Law. 

Quote from Taffy --------------------------------------
[1Ti 4:12]  Let no man despise thy youth;( as ONE UNDER LAW)
but be thou an example of the believers,
in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
------------------------------------------------------------

Whilst I understand youth can be construed as one under law,
but it is not that in this case.
Reason being is that :

First,  Timothy was in chagre of leading the church.
This means that he is already saved and born-again.
Unless otherwise Paul would not put Timothy in charge.
So Timothy was not under the law.

Second, Paul mentioned Timothy as his spiritual son.
Paul has begotten Timothy,

[1Ti1:2] To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

It means Timothy is saved and born-again, so he is not under the law.
Therefore, "the youth(1Ti 4:12)" in this case
should be construed as youth physically.

Now, I wonder how "save yourself" could possibly be related to "Law vs Grace"?

3. Confirmation of salvation

Regarding the confirmation of salvation,
I guess RLV is talking about something else.

[Taffy]

First,  Timothy was in chagre of leading the church.
This means that he is already saved and born-again.
Unless otherwise Paul would not put Timothy in charge.
So Timothy was not under the law.

Hi Sevens

Indeed He wasnt....

we read in scripture we MOVE from a Child\slave\babe\to A SON or Heir..moving from Glory to GLORY...from ones Youth to  A SON of Promise

many examples are shown for us...

Timothy was Circumcised by Paul...and considered to be of Young age..both in HIS literal AGE but also as One Now born UNDER tradition....

I see this BOTH ways.....

Blessings
Taffy

[SeekerSA]

Hi Chung

Question:

If you never ever get to witness someone coming to Christ by your sharings, what other confirmation do you have you are saved (in the traditional sense)?

[70sevens]

SeekerSA,


1. Life-giving Spirit

Quote----------------------------------------
"If you never ever get to witness someone coming to Christ by your sharings"
-----------------------------------------------

Now, I have many people around me who opened their spiritual eyes by my sharing.
By them I am confirmed that my salvation is life-giving one, and is of Jesus.
Even if, as you say, nobody here hears my sharing, that is not my problem, not but theirs.
That will not rescind my confirmation of salvation,
because I know already that my sharing is life-giving.
Like Paul's case, if someone who does not hear Paul,
it's not Paul's problem, but his.

The following scripture verses will explain the confirmation of salvation.
Here, the seal means the confirmation that I mentioned.

[1 Cor 9:1-2]
1/ Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?
Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?
2/ Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you!
For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Some have heard Paul's sharing, and they were saved.
They are the result of Paul's work (sharing) in the Lord.
To those people, Paul was apostle.
But some others refused to listen Paul's sharing,
and they could not get the salvation.
To them, Paul was not apostle.

In this world, there are only two types of people,
i.e. Those who belong to Adam (Adam's kind)
and those who belong to Jesus (Jesus' kind).
Adam's kind means sinful 'Me' and Jesus' kind means saved 'Me'.

Paul said :
[1Cor 15:45]
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being";
the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

If I am not saved, then I belong to Adam.  And I am "a living being", as Adam.
If I am saved by Jesus, then I belong to Jesus. And I am "a life-giving spirit", as Jesus.

So if I am saved right, then I should be able to give life to others,
like Jesus and Paul, because I am a life-giving spirit.
If others are raised from the dead by my sharing,
by that result, my salvation is confirmed as real one that is life-giving.

2. What is the salvation of Jesus

Quote--------------------------------------------
"what other confirmation do you have you are saved (in the traditional sense)?"
---------------------------------------------------

Love, Joy, Peace, miracles, etc, could not be the confirmation.
Such things can also be found, even more, from the people under the Law
and under other religions, even in the atheists.

The only confirmation is that by my sharing the dead are raised.
How is that possible?
Through the true salvation of Jesus.
By that, Adam's life in me is ended and Jesus' life has begun.

Now, I am a new creation,
and to my eyes all universe has reconciled to God as is now.
If we are saved, all scriptures will be fulfilled within us.

This is what the scriptures say "the salvation of Jesus".
We should not put salvation after life, or someday which will never come.
Salvation should be now here.


God bless.


p.s.  I editted blue-colored part for the readers' convenience even though a bit late.

[SeekerSA]

Hi Chung

I am glad you have experienced what you shared.  Maybe I can pose this another way.

When you were saved, how did you know it at that instant/period of time? (whatever happened)

Salvation should be now here.

I agree in part from a sentimental perspective yet scripture is clear that every knee shall bow (Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23) plus there are many more indicating the will of God all men be saved (1Tim2:3-5), Jesus died for all men (Joh 12:32), in Adam all die (not some) and in Christ all (not some) are made alive (Rom 5:11-12; 1 Cor:15:22)

You are Korean.  Explain to me how we deal with any of your Korean predecessors 10BC, or later for that matter prior to the Christianity coming to your country or even the Koreans today that have never heard about Jesus?

Romans 1:18-20 (That text talks about those who already knew and by popular belief God reveals Himself in nature, if true then Jesus is unnecessary, and by inference, all should therefor be Pantheists but we know that not to be the case)

Also please show me where we are supposed to in this short life time find God for ourselves and then make a choice.

In this world, there are only two types of people,
i.e. Those who belong to Adam (Adam's kind)
and those who belong to Jesus (Jesus' kind).
Adam's kind means sinful 'Me' and Jesus' kind means saved 'Me'.

Your last sentence indicates we have both natures even after we are saved.

Is Adam (the original) saved?  How do those who belong to Adam find Jesus, lets take a remote village in China, no TV, no radio?

Lastly, if Jesus died for the sins of mankind, are we still judged for any of our sins?

Blessings

[70sevens]

SeekerSA,

1. When do we know that we are saved?

I wish to invite your attention to Peter's case.
When do you think Peter knew that he was saved?

a) When he met Jesus for the first time (Luk 5:5-11).
b) At the Cross.
c) At Pentecost (Act 2:21).

If you understand the above, you will understand me.

2.  All men be saved.

In Christ, all are made alive. How true!!!
What do you think the meaning "in Christ"?  It means "being saved by Christ"
Jesus died for all men (yes, this what God has provided).
So all men, no discrimination whatsoever, can come to HIM and be saved.
If one stays away from Jesus, then he will keep his unsaved status as it is.   

3.  People who do not have chance to hear Jesus, eg. Korean predecessors 10BC

They are the people mentioned in Romans :
I quote from you words.

Quote----------------------------
Romans 1:18-20 (That text talks about those who already knew and by popular belief
God reveals Himself in nature, if true then Jesus is unnecessary, and by inference,
all should therefore be Pantheists but we know that not to be the case)
-------------------------------------

Please do not confuse "the heaven after life (by God)" with "the heaven in this life (by Jesus)".
If you are expecting heaven after life, you don't have to believe in Jesus, only believe in God.
But If you wish to go heaven during this life, then you need to believe in Jesus, no other way.

So let us make it clear that
"salvation of Jesus" is 'the coming of Kingdom of God to 'me' during this life',
and "traditional salvation" is 'the non-going to Hell/ET after life'.
When it comes to salvation, you are mixing these two up.

But the bible always says about "the salvation of Jesus".


4. Life is too short to find God for ourselves?

The disciples were saved within their short life and saved many other people.
Within our life span, we can do that also. That should be our aim of life.

For others who do not know the gospel, God will take care of them.

5. Either Adam or Jesus

Quote------------------------------------
70sevens : Adam's kind means sinful 'Me' and Jesus' kind means saved 'Me'.
SeekerSA: Your last sentence indicates we have both natures even after we are saved.
------------------------------------------

Before I am saved, I belong to Adam. After I am saved, I belong to Jesus.
Either this or that.
If we are saved, there will be no Adam's nature within us, as it is died on the cross.

6. A remote countryman in China, no TV, no radio

You asked "Is Adam (the original) saved?"
That is none of my concern. Adam is 'Me'.
I would spent my time thinking whether myself is saved rather
than thinking about Adam (the original) who supposed lived 6K years ago.

Do not worry about the people in remote village in China,
rather, worry about the people in U.S.A especially those who are here in this forum.
They have abundant messages about Jesus,
and yet they do not know about what is salvation and who is true Jesus.
So it is not matter of availability of gospel , but matter of our acceptability of gospel.
Do you see what the problems are? 

If there is a man in remote China village who are ready to meet Jesus,
then God will send him Savior Jesus by all means. It's God's work really.
We need to worry about ourselves only. 

7. Jesus died on the Cross for us, so we get free-ride?  Sorry, Never!

Quote------------------
Lastly, if Jesus died for the sins of mankind, are we still judged for any of our sins? 
-------------------------

This part, I think I explained it already in the earlier post.
Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind.
But in order for us to be saved from the sin,
we need to go through the cross of our own in unity with Jesus, and resurrected.
After this process we will be saved from the sin.

You will see the elevator has two doors, one inside and the other outside.
Two doors should be opened for the people to go in/out of the elevator.
Jesus has opened the outside door for all men by dying at the Cross.
Now it is up to every individual to open the inside door of his own.
If he opens the door he will be saved. This part is entirely up to each individual.

8.  Universal Salvation

If God wishes to save all men in the fashion you believe, God will achieve it.
It's God's work entirely. You don't have to spend time in preaching that doctrine.
Whatever you say or do'nt say, whatever you do or don't do, mankind will be saved ultimately.

But problem is our everyday life here.
We feel lack and futility.
That's because we are away from the God.
God sent us Jesus to recover relationship with mankind.
Once we recover, then we will have a life-giving spirit within us.
The bible is saying this.


God bless.

[SeekerSA]

Hi Chung

TY for a detailed response.  NO I am living kingdom now, and I really do not "look forward" to the hereafter passionately.  I am assured of that.

I teach what I do so as to see more come into the fullness of His glory now rather than later.

ET teaches a no hope unless, version of the gospel, that is what most reject.  I have discovered the Father's Love and that is primarily what I share.  The purpose of me sharing with others is so maybe through hearing the real truth, they too can witness to others of this as when UR is embraced, there comes a liberty that is not found in the traditional where hell doctrines are espoused.

As for belonging to Adam and belonging to Christ, I understand your perspective but I see we still have the Adamic/flesh nature even after we come to Christ.  Submitting to Adam or submitting to Christ in us, will determine many things in this life.  When we submit to Christ we walk in the Spirit, alternatively we walk in the flesh.  That is what I meant having both natures.  It would be nice if we still did not have to deal with the Adamic nature but alas, that is our lot in life.  He, Adam, must become less so that Christ can become more.

Blessings