Rob Bell's Universal perspectives?

[Nathan]

I've been reading Rob's book and have almost completed it.  I've come across an area where I think many may give pause to if they hadn't already rejected his message up to this particular point.  He refers to the fact that when the children of Israel were in the wilderness and complaining about no water, Moses spoke to the rock and water came out . . .then we don't see the rock again until Hebrews . . . which by the way, threw me a bit because we most definitely see the rock again where Moses struck it rather than talk to it . . .it was the turning point for Moses' ultimate goal. 

At any rate, the next time the rock is mention is in Hebrews where it states the rock is Christ.  The people of Israel didn't even recognize it as such, it was just their provider for the duration of their trek . . it doesn't say that in the Old Testament, but it does say the rock went with them in the New Testament.  But his point was, they didn't know who the rock was.  Christ manifests in so many different forms, on so many different levels to ALL people.  Then he makes the jump . . . he lists several  . .shall we say  . ."questionable" religious sects . . .Muslim, Hinduu . . .and suggests that even though they don't name their God "Jesus", it's still the same God, just as the Israelites didn't identify the rock as God even though it was . . .

My reason for hesitation is because for me, it's not just about proclaiming Jesus as the only way because he's right in that so many people have so many different opinions on who they think Jesus is that proclaiming "Jesus is the only way" really may not be saying what we're thinking it's to be saying.  But for me, the key is the fruit of the belief . . .as far as I know, Jesus is the only one that chooses us and not the other way around.  He doesn't come to us unless we call him first, we come to him because he has already called to us.  Yet no other religion has that.  And . . .most religions are all about personal sacrifice . . .I mean the message within the religion is such a far cry from the nature of who Jesus is . . .I'm not so sure I buy into his thinking on that one.

Even with the rock, living water poured out of it . . .that "is" the nature of Christ.  Even though they rebel against Moses, the water never withheld it's life from them.  That also is the nature of Christ.  Forcing people to face the east on their knees and face and pray to a temple three times a day . . .not so much.

[shawn]

As I understand now, I would agree with you.  This section gave me great pause.  With that said, I will restate what I have said to others about this book.  Don't get too focused on the details and see the big picture of this book.  God loves all people, we are all in this life thing together...if we are followers of Christ then we should try to emulate him.  And this mirroring of Christ produces fruit of love for our neighbors.

I will say though, that I believe Christ can reveal himself to a person in lets say the deep jungles of Africa.  I believe they wouldn't have a name for him, or the name would be different but the spirit would be the same.  But, for me to embrace a teaching that basically says all paths lead to God, well that isn't something that makes sense to me.

[Nathan]

Oh no, I wouldn't throw the book out by any means . . .great message, great tool to stir up the atmosphere to prepare for change to manifest . . .still waiting for that one "final shaking" . . .this could very well lead into "that".

[Nathan]

I've finished the book . . .started it Tuesday I think . . finished it today . . pretty fast read.  But he really says some powerful things, especially towards the end.  I love his take on the prodigal son where he explains the three different opinions of the Father's love . . .one is the prodigal's point of view where he sees himself unworthy to be a son, but okay to be a slave . . .then the brother to the prodigal who felt he was cheated because he was obedient, like a slave, to do everything he was instructed to do.  He felt he "deserved" attention.

then the Father's point of view.  To the son, he killed the fattest calf for and had a celebration for his return INTO-THE-FAMILY.  He never saw him to be anything less than a son.  And to the brother . . .everything that the Father owned, the brother owned as well . . .all he had to do was ask for it . . .

Then he ended the thought with a great question . . who's opinion would "you" rather listen to?

[Miriam]

I liked his take on the prodigal son as well.  :bigGrin:

[shawn]

I liked his take on the prodigal son as well.  :bigGrin:

IMO, that is the best portion of this book.  It has really helped me in that area. 

[redhotmagma]

Whats even better about prodigal son is that it is one of 3 parables.  In all 3 something is lost.  In the first 2 someone searches for the lost (coin, sheep), but in the prodigal there is nobody going after the son.  In that time, it was the duty of the oldest son to go after the lost son, and bring him back even to the point of giving up his life for the younger.  This was part of the deal of getting the double inheritance.  The audience of Jesus would have understood this and those with ears to hear would see that the true older brother was telling the story. 

Christianity says look if you turn back to the Father, He will kill the fatted calf for you, which is true, no matter how far you've slidden into the trough.  But what the true parable is is that the older brother does go looking for the younger, and brings him back to the father, and they enter the Fathers feast together (the written parable ends with the older outside the feast)

[WhiteWings]

Red,
The prodical so returned/repented himself. Not so good. ETs love to see the repenting has to come from the sinner and not actovely converted like the sheep/coin.
But.....
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

Dead people can repent. Does this debunk the idea that repentance has to happen in this life?

[Molly]

Red,
The prodical so returned/repented himself. Not so good. ETs love to see the repenting has to come from the sinner and not actovely converted like the sheep/coin.
But.....
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

Dead people can repent. Does this debunk the idea that repentance has to happen in this life?

Death has less to do with whether or not you are walking and chewing gum, and more to do with whether or not you are a member of God's family.


Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

[redhotmagma]

Red,
The prodical so returned/repented himself. Not so good. ETs love to see the repenting has to come from the sinner and not actovely converted like the sheep/coin.
But.....
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

Dead people can repent. Does this debunk the idea that repentance has to happen in this life?

This can be a great apologetic for UR. 
1. still possible to repent after death
2. lost=appollumi=destruction
3. we aren't required to do it on our own, as the true older brother will come (already has). "what man of you having 99 sheep, and loses one, will not leave the 99 behind and go out into the open country to find the lost sheep, and when he finds it he puts in on his shoulders and rejoices".  This is what the true older brother does. 

The more I think about it, this story could also be referencing after physical death (of course Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever).  In the story that was written, there are 2 brothers.  the older represents the "religious" the ones who are "in" so they think.  The younger is the rebel, the "sinner", the ones in "hell".  The older was supposed to be caring for the sheep but they weren't.  these are the lazy slaves, those thrown out into the outer darkness, the ones who don't have their wedding attire on as seen by the older brother outside the feast at the end of the story.

In the true story that Jesus was telling, there are 2 brothers.  Except Jesus is the older brother.  Or us being the glorified body of Christ.  And the older brother leaves the 99 behind and goes out into the wilderness to find the dead lost brother and bring him home, to stand before the father and then be clothed in royal robes and given sonship.

In both stories theres only 2 brothers.  In the true story we don't see the religious and the lost.  We see the righteous and the lost.  This looks to me like what we see after the great and terrible day of the Lord.

60:1 "Arise! Shine! For your light arrives!
The splendor 1  of the Lord shines on you!
60:2 For, look, darkness covers the earth
and deep darkness covers 2  the nations,
but the Lord shines on you;
his splendor 3  appears over you.
60:3 Nations come to your light,
kings to your bright light.
60:4 Look all around you! 4
They all gather and come to you –
your sons come from far away
and your daughters are escorted by guardians.
60:5 Then you will look and smile, 5
you will be excited and your heart will swell with pride. 6
For the riches of distant lands 7  will belong to you
and the wealth of nations will come to you.

60:11 Your gates will remain open at all times;
they will not be shut during the day or at night,
so that the wealth of nations may be delivered,
with their kings leading the way. 20

The wealth of the nations being the purified silver that has been tormented/tested.
As of right now there are at least 3 brothers on this earth, lost, religious, and righteous.  :2c:

you know being far from home, or defiled from a dead body (or being dead) are the qualifications for participating in the second passover

[WhiteWings]

Red,
The prodical so returned/repented himself. Not so good. ETs love to see the repenting has to come from the sinner and not actovely converted like the sheep/coin.
But.....
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

Dead people can repent. Does this debunk the idea that repentance has to happen in this life?

Death has less to do with whether or not you are walking and chewing gum, and more to do with whether or not you are a member of God's family.

For you perhaps but not for the other 99% of Christians. For them it's impossible to become family after death.