Identification with Christ

[fullarmor2]

    I would like to talk about something I think causes people to be confused about UR and ET sometimes. I think when we talk about UR  or ET  we do so without remembering this truth.    I understand that in order for a person to be saved they have to die.  The "old" person has to die so the "new" person, created by the Spirit of God,  can live.   And the dying  I'm referring to is death to sin, the flesh, the World, the devil,etc....  to ALL evil.  And this process continues our entire life here in the World.  And after physical death,  this spiritual dying process to evil,  will be consummated. Now I believe that it will be consummated very quickly for those who were more faithful in this life. For example, a very spiritual person who dies physically  will require less punishment(or none), less correction, less preparation, and whatever else the Lord does to make a person ready for entering the Kingdom.  As opposed to someone who lacked faith and grew very little spiritually in this life.  That person will have to go through a more lengthy process. But they MUST die. We ALL have to die the death of the cross. Some do it sooner than others is all.  So, in a way, punishment or correction does have a totality about it. People who enter into divine punishment will not come out. A brand new person will come out.   When a person is smitten by God.  Its so the old sin person can be put to death,  so the "new creature in Christ Jesus can live" free! 
      I just think  ET people need to remember the truth about how God wants us to die. Not in a way where we cease to exist! God simply wants us to die with Jesus, to all evil. So we can take our places in his wonderful Kingdom!

[hopeful]

Thanks for sharing, fullarmour2.

This whole concept of "going to heaven"
is another pet doctrine that has been put upon my altar. 
God is in the process of consuming it with His holy fire. 
We'll see what it looks like when He is done.   :icon_queen:

[fullarmor2]

       Well said Hopeful.  And I like that.   
            I just think its neat how the process of "identifying with Christ",  something every person
   must do.  With his death to sin and ALL evil.  His burial.  And the best part,  his awesome triumph in resurrection.   Or rather how an understanding of this process is very helpful to us. And of course it is, because we are talking about  the cross of Christ!     And since we believe ALL will be saved,  and this  is the way they will be saved,  thinking about this can be very helpful to us at understanding God's purpose in judgment.  Its just amazing how the cross of Christ is so central!     
     

[amanda]

We are "saved" already, what has to "die" or be released is our old or conditioned way of seeing and percieving thru the past.  Death is just the releasing of all that is false within us and what will remain is the truth, the eternal, that is the new person.  What is painfull is the holding on, we hold on to "ideas" about ourselves and mistakenly believe these "ideas" are us, its the "idea" that dies but it feels like we ourselves or part of ourselves die.  God doesnt punish us, it just feels like punishment because of our understanding of punishment and how we punish others in this "world".  God "shows" us the truth.

[fullarmor2]

We are "saved" already, what has to "die" or be released is our old or conditioned way of seeing and percieving thru the past.  Death is just the releasing of all that is false within us and what will remain is the truth, the eternal, that is the new person.  What is painfull is the holding on, we hold on to "ideas" about ourselves and mistakenly believe these "ideas" are us, its the "idea" that dies but it feels like we ourselves or part of ourselves die.  God doesnt punish us, it just feels like punishment because of our understanding of punishment and how we punish others in this "world".  God "shows" us the truth.

True, we are saved already. Its a done deal. God is simply waiting on us to respond to what he has already done. No one will come to the Father accept through Christ, as he is the only way. So each person must follow in Jesus' footsteps. By taking up the cross.  And doing what Jesus did, only we don't have to experience the punishment aspect like Jesus did. He did that for us! However, Jesus did not just die physically, he also died on a spiritual level to ALL evil, the World,flesh,sin,ect... .  At some point, the sin that Jesus took upon himself, was eradicated. As soon as the price was paid. Perhaps when Jesus said, "it is finished".  We have to remember that the word die just means to separate from.   Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body.  Spiritual death means separation from God.(people alive physically but who have not come to Jesus yet.)  There is also eternal death.  I think that is separation from God after physical death. 
    Anyone feel free to correct me.  I know that my theology now is a blend of my old fundy beliefs and 
UR teaching. I feel pretty confident though. I know the Holy Spirit is helping me to distinguish between truth and error in my old theology.

[Craig]

I read your post, what does this have to do with going to heaven or not? What I understood is that everyone will die (at least once mortally).

I've had people say to me,  "what about this evil person or that evil person"!?  "You mean to tell me their going to be in Heaven"?  Then I say NO! And neither are you!   That person is going to die the death of the cross like everybody else!  Nobody is going to Heaven!! That is, nobodies "old carnal person".

Be careful, Scripture says that Jesus died on the cross as a propitiation, substitution, sacrifice on our behalf so we do not need to. Because He died, we are already considered dead in Him, now we trust in Him and live for Him who raised from the dead.

You will destroy the hope of those who believe in Christ, by telling them they don't go to heaven. When Jesus and his apostles said we do. The processes for those who believe is different for those who do not believe, but the most definitely do get there.

Jesus said,
John 14:1-3
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

Paul said,
2 Corinthians 5:1-3
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

[Cardinal]

Thanks for sharing, fullarmour2.

This whole concept of "going to heaven"
is another pet doctrine that has been put upon my altar. 
God is in the process of consuming it with His holy fire. 
We'll see what it looks like when He is done.   :icon_queen:

:thumbsup: Isn't the subtility just insidious? God help us to see and hear and obey. Blessings to you.....

[Craig]

Once again, Jesus said, "If it were not so, I would have told you."

I would most rather trust in Jesus.

[fullarmor2]

I read your post, what does this have to do with going to heaven or not? What I understood is that everyone will die (at least once mortally).

             All I'm saying is that every person has to become a "new person in Christ"  as a result of coming to a knowledge of the truth of Christ, and by the operation of the Holy Spirit. Part of this process is death(separation) to the World, the flesh, sin, and the old carnal nature. This is a life long process(this lifetime) which God will complete in all of us.  So the person you were before you came to Christ is not going to Heaven. He is in the process of being transformed from glory to glory into the likeness of Christ.    This is also called the sanctification process. The farther along in this process you are in this lifetime,  the less you will need to go  through this process after you die to be prepared for entering the Kingdom.
       

[fullarmor2]

         

You will destroy the hope of those who believe in Christ, by telling them they don't go to heaven. When Jesus and his apostles said we do. The processes for those who believe is different for those who do not believe, but the most definitely do get there.

      Your right. I got a little over zealous and out of balance with my post. So I made some changes to it.  :Oops:

[Craig]

This is also called the sanctification process. The farther along in this process you are in this lifetime,  the less you will need to go  through this process after you die to be prepared for entering the Kingdom.

I agree. Thanks fullarmor2 :)