Punishment in this life or the next, or both?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am not solid on where I stand with this.

My inquiry in this manner is to try to narrow down things a little bit. 

I want to ask about the difference, if any, between the deaths of the wicked in the old testament and the deaths of wicked people present day.

If there is a tentmaker article or book that is online and I do not have to purchase, please direct me to there as well.

Along with that first inquiry, I would like to study the verses that indicate that punishment awaits us once we are resurrected from the dead.

Please post your knowledge.

[Tony N]

At the start of the Millennium the nations are chastened for the duration of that 1000 year eon. The people of those goat nations who die during that eon will later be resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne and be set right. I am not sure what God is going to do at the GWT. It might be He is going to reveal to them that that they have all been died for. They will all give an account though or a word as to their acts. I think the real sad part is they will miss out on the most glorious eon.

Of course, not all (maybe none?) here who frequent these boards share my view on this.

Believers are disciplined in this life so as not to be condemned with the word (1 Cor.11:32). We do not have an adversative judgment awaiting us in the future.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi TonyN... :hithere:

First, I receive, and thoroughly enjoy the "Savior of ALL newsletter"!  Thanks!  :thumbsup:

A few comments on your post... you are more than welcome to disagree with them if you choose!  :grin:

At the start of the Millennium the nations are chastened for the duration of that 1000 year eon. The people of those goat nations who die during that eon will later be resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne and be set right.

To begin with, the "millennium" is NOT a Biblical term... and it is furthermore a mention within a book of SYMBOLS which further calls a LITERAL "1000 year" period into question...

ALL things are being worked together by, and according TO, the WILL of GOD (Eph 1:11) ...which in the end means, that ALL THINGS are under His control as to HOW, WHEN and WHY they occur within the realm of time...

I am not sure what God is going to do at the GWT. It might be He is going to reveal to them that that they have all been died for. They will all give an account though or a word as to their acts. I think the real sad part is they will miss out on the most glorious eon.

The "EON" that some perceive as a "1000 year millennium" is simply the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS appear (Gen 2:4)...  ALL things are placed upon the only foundation (CHRIST) during this "DAY"... and upon that placement, their individual "JUDGMENTS" of those things/deeds, ...take place (1 Cor 3:11:15)

ALL things/deeds -- that are done IN CHRIST (life), shall abide the FIRE (which is this life)... ALL things/deeds -- that are NOT IN CHRIST (death)... shall perish...

We stand before the Great White Throne, EVERY DAY of our lives bro... NOW is the JUDGMENT of this WORLD [KOSMOS/creation] (John 12:31) 

There is no need of "future" (according to time) activity of JUDGMENT, for it is an ETERNAL act of GOD, which observes and deduces its conclusions as that activity occurs, ...but said JUDGMENT is NOT tied to TIME (past or future)... The JUDGMENT is NOW, not in the past, not in the future, ...NOW...

Of course, not all (maybe none?) here who frequent these boards share my view on this.

We're all learning brother T... and our views in some capacities are complete (learned and true), and in others incomplete (unlearned and veiled, and therefore untrue)...

It is through our diligent and prayerful study, which includes discussion, that GOD works TRUTH into our vision...  :cloud9:

Believers are disciplined in this life so as not to be condemned with the word (1 Cor.11:32). We do not have an adversative judgment awaiting us in the future.

I do not believe ANYONE has "adversative judgment" awaiting them... this would contain an element of FEAR... FEAR (as in apprehension, horror, or fright) is NOT a part of LOVE...  Don't know about you, but I NEVER FEAR those I LOVE and that I KNOW ...LOVE ME!

I KNOW that GOD LOVES me... so what is there to FEAR?  My wife loves me, my daughter loves me, my best friend loves me, maybe even YOU love me, what is there to FEAR from those who LOVE us?   

This is yet another fallacy (IMO) which is NOT GOOD NEWS... GOOD news is that GOD LOVES you and sent JESUS to die for your sin... NOT that He is "gonna get you" for your sin...  :dontknow:

FEAR is a form of TORMENT and has no PART in LOVE... (1 John 4:18)

ALL "torment" found in THIS LIFE, is due to SIN... which JESUS CHRIST (John 1:29) ..."took away"...

That which is "taken away" is no longer present (in ETERNAL terms)...  That we are yet IN TIME (not ETERNITY) and IN this WORLD, ...is the continuation or completion and fulfillment of ALL THINGS, which in part include SUFFERINGS which are being used in COMPLETING us! (Heb 2:10)

I believe regret will occur in ALL of us to the varying degrees that we did not find alignment with HIS WILL, in our lives on earth, and that -- SORROW which occurs as this becomes KNOWN to us, ...is the residue which is WIPED DRY from the eyes of the Children of the Most HIGH... (Rev 21:4)

When CHRIST is revealed in the here and now (this life)... what happens?  :dontknow:   

We TEARFULLY, ...drop to our KNEES, and with UNWORTHY LIPS, ...CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD...  :crywipe:  And GRACE, lifts us to our feet to WITNESS of the LOVE, LIFE and FORGIVENESS it provides... which is the GOSPEL...

Some shall shed MANY TEARS... others FEW... but ALL TEARS shall be replaced by the JOY of YHVH God... for HIS PURPOSE for ALL CHILDREN has been wrought and HIS ETERNAL PURPOSE come to pass in TIME... which fills TIME to overflow back into the ETERNAL from which it emerged... no past, no future... just plain old WONDERFUL, ...NOW...  FOR EVER!  :2thumbs:

P.S.  Sorry for being so long--winded!  :blush:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[fire walker]

Willie

That It is NOW, yes I am
in agreement.   :thumbsup:

Hello Paul,
You are free to question or disagree with what I post here I know your are searching after the truth of this punishment business which can also be considered correction.

I am not able to say just when or why this following verse of scripture revealed a deep message to me that it is NOW, NOW is the day, revelation comes by spirit, now is the all consuming fire, the refiners fire, the burning bush within us:

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you, but rejoice in as much as you are partakers of Christs sufferings; that, when his Glory is revealed you may be glad also with exceeding joy.  1 Peter 4:12-13

Our fiery trial is here now, we are in the refiners fire now, now is the judgement of this world, not in some eternal world of suffering in ever lasting fire and brimstone called hell for all eternity after the great white throne judgement beyond our natural life. Fundamental literalists preach and pound out behind their church pulpits, preaching sermons of hell and eternal tourment which is nothing more than dark doctrines that promote fear.

Fire Walker




 

[Paul Hazelwood]

It is believed most widely that no one besides Jesus  dies while on earth sinless.


1. What verses explain in what manner the change that is needed due to that takes place, since it must take place after death if indeed we die while still sinners whether we believe or not.  Belief and service to our Lord has not made us without sin.

2. Matthew 25:46 The widely used verse for endless punishment that we use to support universal salvation and temporary chastisement based on what is believed to be proper translation.   If correction is now for everyone please show the scripture that explains we have already awoken to it, or when this awakening takes place.

3. In John 18:36 Jesus talks about the kingdom being now, so then,  what is now, this awakening?

[rosered]

  Hey GREAT QUESTION!!  :icon_king:

  Wonder  too , but less than I used to

considering all the scriptures that says there is no law  to be imputed to the  dead ..
and also the dead  1  literal ,2 spiritual and 3in Christ
  I am thinking its a work of God  that covers everyone for all times ?
what do you think about that ?
Thanks all for  answering ...........

[rosered]

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Rom 4:7  [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


  considering the ''context''  of Romans 4 , seems Christs  Blood covers

  the knowing and unknowing ?  sort of like a blind man  being born blind , how can they not be blind unless the Lord  heals them and thats the beauty of God or glory of His ways   


  If the dead know nothing , than how can they be  judged , for nothing ?
and  to the spiritually dead  the  works are judged , not them  and well as the spiritually living  their works are judged as well

  and  for the literal dead , the flesh means nothing to God  right ?

[fire walker]

  and  for the literal dead , the flesh means nothing to God  right ?
[/quote]

Yes that is what I am receiving from the message delivered in: John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing, the words I speak to you (they) are spirit and (they) are life.

Fire Walker

[Tony N]

willieH: Hi TonyN... :hithere:

First, I receive, and thoroughly enjoy the "Savior of ALL newsletter"!  Thanks!  :thumbsup:

A few comments on your post... you are more than welcome to disagree with them if you choose!  :grin:

At the start of the Millennium the nations are chastened for the duration of that 1000 year eon. The people of those goat nations who die during that eon will later be resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne and be set right.

To begin with, the "millennium" is NOT a Biblical term... and it is furthermore a mention within a book of SYMBOLS which further calls a LITERAL "1000 year" period into question...

Hi willieH, and thanks for your kind word on our SAF newsletter.
You are correct that "millennium" in not a biblical term. I just use it because most believers know that it stands for "the thousand year age to come." It is just easier to write "millennium" than "the thousand year age to come." Also, if  "the thousand year age to come" had already come when Christ was on the earth, why was John still looking to the future for its appearance?
Also, if the thousand year age to come (tiring ain't it?)  :laughing7: came with its judgment thereof, how is it that the nations have not been brought before Jesus yet since they have not yet done to Christ's brothers that which they are accused of yet, since Christ's brothers have not yet gone through the great tribulation which is at the latter half of the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks? which culminates in Matthew 25:31-46 of which Christ stated is at the end of this eon (which has not ended yet)?
Also, why did Paul state as much in looking forward to that day as it had not come in his day yet in 2 Thess.2? Yet you say it is here now. If it is here now, then it was here now in Christ's and Paul's and John's day. Yet it was absent. If they all three missed it, could it be due to not having access to Tentmaker's message board to read all the wonderful messages that it (the judging) has been among us since day one?  :dontknow:

Since Christ said: "now is the judgment of this world" in John 12:31, we must ask: in what way was the judgment of this world Christ spoke of since John and Paul wrote of the world being judged as yet future long after Christ died?
A.E. Knoch wrote in the Concordant Commentary on John 12:31 and the judgment of the world:

"31 .'Now is the judging of this world" suggests that God was, at that time, about to judge mankind. But He did not. Judgment still waits. It is the world that was doing the judging. This is confirmed by the same form of the word in "the judging of Gehenna" (Mt.23:33), "the just judging of God" (2Th.1:5). See also Un.14:7, 16:7, 18:10, 19:2. The world would hardly judge Satan, so the Chief here spoken of must be Christ Himself. This title is used again in 14:30 and 16:11, where further evidence is given that our Lord is speaking of Himself. The judging is His exaltation on the cross, for it was a reference to the manner of His death. So it was that the throng understood the term. We should not give one of His titles to Satan. Christ is the world's Chief."


Just some things to think about.
Peace bro!

Tony

[Paul Hazelwood]

Maybe i am not quite understanding some of whats being said.

So, one question, my next question will be based on the answers I get.

1. When anyone dies physically on this earth, whether they be unbelievers or believers,  are they in the grave spiritually "likened to sleep"?


Thank you

[rosered]

  and  for the literal dead , the flesh means nothing to God  right ?

Yes that is what I am receiving from the message delivered in: John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing, the words I speak to you (they) are spirit and (they) are life.

Fire Walker
[/quote]  Amen Firewalker !  ,   


   To die literally would  be  like the  butterfly being  formed  and different [ new creature ]  from the worm that was formed in the cocoon  to me 
  when we leave this world [physical]  with the good and bad  experiences  within us
  here we see Christ died for all



For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

2Cr 5:11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2Cr 5:12 ¶ For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.


2Cr 5:13  For whether we be beside ourselves, [it is] to God: or whether we be sober, [it is] for your cause.


2Cr 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


2Cr 5:15  And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


2Cr 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

2Cr 5:17  Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


2Cr 5:18  And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


2Cr 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

seems its never been about the flesh with God ?  the way I am reading Paul here in 2 Cor 5  but the good and bad in all of us   to be weighed out and judged   all will suffer loss  yet be saved   Paul speaks of another place
   Love is what makes us ALL the differnence to me  and GOD is Love 
   we know God because we love and Have His Breath/ Spirit within us
  everyone has  this  , every living thing 
and Love is a  hard thing to explain 
the world hates God and Jesus Christ because they dont know them !!

yet  GOD loves  His creation in Christ  its  a new thing
  the old is over and destroyed  , I see the same in the literal sense as well and the Spiritual sense    everything gets old worn and used up and washed out /rotten corrupt 
nothing is  Perfect / complete  but God /Christ   to me 
 

[rosered]

Maybe i am not quite understanding some of whats being said.

So, one question, my next question will be based on the answers I get.

1. When anyone dies physically on this earth, whether they be unbelievers or believers,  are they in the grave spiritually "likened to sleep"?


Thank you

thank you great question , some thing  I am thinking about alot as of late 
Paul   the sleep seems to be a now thing  the  way Paul the apostle put it 
calling them sick , spiritually to me   dead works ?   WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST / loving  one another as He Loves us ...

1Cr 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

? 1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.



    seeing this in Daniel I am thinking of the Power of the CROSS OF CHRIST    Now is the worlds princes being judged  individually  to me

  that is why  no one knows the  time when Christ returns  ONLY GOD /FATHER
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth / our flesh literally ]shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.


And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars/ angels / messengers  for ever and ever.

  the contempt is when they are judged after [ Christ Spirit comes to them judgment seat ]

Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities
1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they follow after. Likewise also the good works [of some] are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

   the Light / knowledge of GOD  that cannot be hid  with Christ Spirit   in you

   I hope this is  easy to read  , I hate using my own words to explain , but some how  when I use Scriptures   , it seems my   posts become  hard to read  / understand
  I  hope !   you will be able  to understand 
   thanks just the same 

[Tony N]

Maybe i am not quite understanding some of whats being said.

So, one question, my next question will be based on the answers I get.

1. When anyone dies physically on this earth, whether they be unbelievers or believers,  are they in the grave spiritually "likened to sleep"?


Thank you

By "spiritually" I think you mean "metaphorically." "Are they in the grave metaphorically 'likened to sleep'"?

There is nothing spiritual about real death. The term "sleep of death" is just a metaphor for death. It is like sleep only in that the person awakes to life out of death.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Maybe i am not quite understanding some of whats being said.

So, one question, my next question will be based on the answers I get.

1. When anyone dies physically on this earth, whether they be unbelievers or believers,  are they in the grave spiritually "likened to sleep"?


Thank you

By "spiritually" I think you mean "metaphorically." "Are they in the grave metaphorically 'likened to sleep'"?

There is nothing spiritual about real death. The term "sleep of death" is just a metaphor for death. It is like sleep only in that the person awakes to life out of death.

Let me ask this a different way.


We have a believer and an unbeliever that both die on the same day.  Where is the spirit of the unbeliever and where is the spirit of the believer immediatly after their death on this earth?

[jabcat]

Hi Paul...my little bit on something I'm not sure I understand a whole lot...I believe scripture states the body returns to dust, the dead know nothing, and the spirit returns to God "from whence it came".  What those things exactly look like may be open to interpretation/further revelation. 

There are a lot of things that "muddy the water".  Near death experiences, people seeing their loved ones smiling, coming to get them.  My sister has almost died a couple of times (or at least thought she would).  Just this weekend she talked about it.  The first time she states she had no relationship/personal belief in Jesus, and when she was "leaving", she saw blackness.  After her being given faith for active belief in Jesus, when she was leaving she said she saw "white" and had no fear.  I asked her about the black.  She said "I was going to hell".  I haven't pursued that further with her yet, wanting to explore with her things like, is it possible that wasn't "hell" (and what made her think that besides traditional teaching and then her interpretation within the paradigm), but perhaps heading for a time of discipline, not "being ready" and needing to go through the LoF somehow.  However, as scripture says the dead know nothing, then.....?  I've read that NDE's are based on what we've been taught and therefor what we then expect to see/experience....not sure.  So, my best bet is to go with scripture, body/dust, dead/nothing, spirit/to God......God's blessing, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Thanks for your reply James,  after this reply I will take some time to let others respond as well.

More specific examples maybe.

1. Mr Christian who is a universalist helped people all his life, but at home treated his wife very badly, and upon death he had never repented of that, what of him after death?

2. A murderer never got caught, and died and it was never known to anyone on earth that he was a murderer, he died denying any acceptance that he needed Christ, even though he knew about Christ and heard of that need, what of him after death?

[WhiteWings]

Hi Jabcat,

The dead know nothing. It's written in the Bible so I believe it. But who is dead?
Just some thoughts I hope others can confirm/debunk with verses.
People including your sister seeing white light (and people waiting for them) could mean some people pass on directly to Heaven. It can also mean, as you wrote, it's just a preprogrammed 'dream'.

When your sister saw blackness it can mean 2 things I think.
Her brain functions dying and she was about to be dead in the way atheists see dead. And that's the dead know nothing.
She was really going to a place of correction. That would mean she was 'dead' but aware of things.
Then who is in the 'the dead know nothing' category?

Daniel 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (white), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (black)
If (some) people go directly to the white light how can they awake?
For them there was no death. Just like your sister. She was barely alive but still alive. And at that point she already say white light. So she would just have stepped from one life to another life.

[pneuma]

I believe scripture states the body returns to dust, the dead know nothing, and the spirit returns to God "from whence it came".

Jab not going to go into debate on this but wanted to point out something, the dead knowing nothing and the body returning to dust and the spirit returning to God, all happens upon MANS DEATH.

But what DEATH is this speaking of? A physical or a spiritual DEATH?

Most seem to think these are in reference to mans physical death whereupon his body returns to dust and his spirit returns to God who gave it and while in death they do not know anything.

I don't believe that is a right understanding of those scriptures and here is the reason why.

First the spirit that returns to God upon our death is NOT our spirit it is the Holy Spirit, this is seen in that spirits are seen in prison houses and must await Christ's coming to set them free. 1Pet.3:19

This is seen more fully if we look back to Adam and what happened to him.

Adam was created and then the breath of life(birth of Christ) was breathed into him, then God made a garden in Eden and placed Adam there.

God then told Adam not to eat from the tree of KOGE or the day he ate was the day he would DIE.

Adam ate and the Holy Spirit/anointing returned to God, and his body returned to the dust from whence it came gen.3:23


It is in this state of death, that being without the Holy Spirit that it is said the dead know nothing.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb.9:27

Man is only appointed to DIE ONCE and we see that DEATH here

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Anyway that my  :2c:

[jabcat]

Hi pneuma...certainly worth thinking about some more.  As with most things spiritual, it's not a quick, easy topic, is it?  Denominations have been started over less  :laughing7:.  God's blessing, James.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi TonyN... :hithere:

At the start of the Millennium the nations are chastened for the duration of that 1000 year eon. The people of those goat nations who die during that eon will later be resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne and be set right.

To begin with, the "millennium" is NOT a Biblical term... and it is furthermore a mention within a book of SYMBOLS which further calls a LITERAL "1000 year" period into question...

Hi willieH, and thanks for your kind word on our SAF newsletter.
You are correct that "millennium" in not a biblical term. I just use it because most believers know that it stands for "the thousand year age to come." It is just easier to write "millennium" than "the thousand year age to come." Also, if  "the thousand year age to come" had already come when Christ was on the earth, why was John still looking to the future for its appearance?

The "DAY of YHVH" concerning TIME, has a past and future... for TIME has those elements within it... ALL of TIME (in which ALL generations find themselves) is contained in the DAY of YHVH (Gen 2:4)

John was a MAN and being like ourselves, one bound by TIME, he would in turn speak in terms just as did ALL the other writers of Scripture, from a FINITE view, for no MAN has an INFINITE view... 

As far as him noting it as something "to come" I do not see this... The "1000 years" is noted but nothing is said of it concerning its "appearance" relative to TIME (past or future)...  Where GOD is concerned there is neither... for HE is an ETERNAL entity which concerns Himself in the proximity of NOW... and is WHY He referred to His existence as "I AM"...

TIME stands before the Throne of God in its ENTIRETY, not as it is manifest to those within it... ALL DAYS of "TIME" are noted in the proximity of the Throne of GOD, ...NOW...

Also, if the thousand year age to come (tiring ain't it?)  :laughing7: came with its judgment thereof, how is it that the nations have not been brought before Jesus yet since they have not yet done to Christ's brothers that which they are accused of yet, since Christ's brothers have not yet gone through the great tribulation which is at the latter half of the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks? which culminates in Matthew 25:31-46 of which Christ stated is at the end of this eon (which has not ended yet)?

You are establishing a viewpoint of Prophecy... it is entirely possible that the viewpoint is in error as observed...

Matt 25:32 states THEN shall ALL NATIONS be gathered before Him... WHEN in TIME is this possible Tony?  What of ADAM's generation, or Moses' generation?  They were "nations" which are numbered within "ALL"?  The truth is that ALL NATIONS are gathered BEFORE Him ...NOW... The end from the beginning, bro...  ALL nations appear at different points in TIME, but ALL "time" IS... is NOW... and "NOW" is the "THEN" spoken of in Matt 25:32.

The SON of man comes IN HIS GLORY, when HE is REVEALED in ALL... and IN that REVELATION... that which is NOT ...IN HIM... is perished... but that which IS, ...IN HIM... abides (1 Cor 3:11-15)... this is taking place NOW, in EACH LIFE which is before Him at different TIMES, but ALWAYS, ...NOW...

Please refer to what I just said... TIME unfolds for FINITES on a "day by day" or "past and future" basis, ...for the INFINITE it appears as NOW...

Most have adopted TIME as the measure which GOD deals with, which (IMO) is OFF-BASE...

TIME is a created entity which HAS a BEGINNING (first day) and an END (last day)... ETERNITY is not confined or bound by TIME, nor is TIME even a consideration in its process... ETERNITY is that which "houses" TIME... for its needed and PURPOSED  manifestations... when its manifestations and PURPOSE are fulfilled, TIME is no longer a necessary entity...

In observing the "1000 years"... one must (or might I say, SHOULD) take into consideration that it is PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST...

JESUS CHRIST is NOT a "time bound" entity... He is an ETERNAL entity... and any PART of the REVELATION of Him, is subsequently -- ETERNAL... including the observance of the SYMBOLIC "1000 years" mentioned in the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST.

Also, why did Paul state as much in looking forward to that day as it had not come in his day yet in 2 Thess.2?

Actually 2 Thes 2:2 states the DAY of CHRIST is ...AT HAND...  "At hand" means NOW, bro...

Again, might I remind you that any TIME proximities noted by any of the Apostles are made by FINITE Men which live "day by day" as their lives unfold, but those lives (and ALL lives) are known before ANY of their days are lived IN TIME, as Paul noted of Jacob and Esau (Rom 9:11)

Yet you say it is here now. If it is here now, then it was here now in Christ's and Paul's and John's day. Yet it was absent. If they all three missed it, could it be due to not having access to Tentmaker's message board to read all the wonderful messages that it (the judging) has been among us since day one?  :dontknow:

This attempt at facetiousness is duly noted!  :laughing7:  But it does not change a thing I have said...  None of them (CHRIST, Paul & John) "missed anything" bro, I think it is YOU that have "missed it"...  :dontknow:

GOD never changes Tony... meaning that His DAY, ...or the "Day of YHVH"... ALWAYS IS... it is not, as I previously noted, bound by TIME in order to be manifest... it ...IS... NOW!

Since Christ said: "now is the judgment of this world" in John 12:31, we must ask: in what way was the judgment of this world Christ spoke of since John and Paul wrote of the world being judged as yet future long after Christ died?
A.E. Knoch wrote in the Concordant Commentary on John 12:31 and the judgment of the world:

"31 .'Now is the judging of this world" suggests that God was, at that time, about to judge mankind. But He did not. Judgment still waits. It is the world that was doing the judging. This is confirmed by the same form of the word in "the judging of Gehenna" (Mt.23:33), "the just judging of God" (2Th.1:5). See also Un.14:7, 16:7, 18:10, 19:2. The world would hardly judge Satan, so the Chief here spoken of must be Christ Himself. This title is used again in 14:30 and 16:11, where further evidence is given that our Lord is speaking of Himself. The judging is His exaltation on the cross, for it was a reference to the manner of His death. So it was that the throng understood the term. We should not give one of His titles to Satan. Christ is the world's Chief."

CHRIST was slain from the foundation of the world, Tony... that this event was manifest at a given point on the clock of TIME, is basically IRRELEVANT... the NOW that is spoken of in John 12:31... always IS... and is not subject to TIME... which btw, ...always ISN'T!  :mshock:

Don't mean to sound sarcastic or arrogant bro... but TIME is really a NON existent entity... for all TIME "IS", ...is NOW (which is ETERNAL) as observed by FINITES...

There IS no past, for all the past IS, ...is NOW which has already occurred in and for FINITE observance... There is no FUTURE, for all the future IS, ...is NOW which is YET to occur in and for FINITE observance... essentially, TIME is a binding entity which encases in FINITE TERMS, the PURPOSE of GOD to teach His Children the KNOWLEDGE of, or difference between -- GOOD and EVIL, ...a "classroom" if you will... and when this KNOWLEDGE has been taught to ALL... TIME shall end where it began, a FULFILLED entity ...flowing into ETERNITY... bringing with that "FLOW", all those which gained this KNOWLEDGE and are NOW as is the Father...  He permeating them COMPLETELY... ALL in ALL...  GOD (The "Head") taking a KNOWLEDGE that only HE has, and makes KNOWN that knowledge to the members of HIS BODY...

It's all well and good that A.E. Knoch had a viewpoint... however, his view, is not the end-all of GOD's WORD...  I hold the highest respect for such as EBY, VINSON, SMITH, ROACH, PRINZING, TORANGO, JUKES and others... but THEY do not hold the "corner on" or understand, ALL TRUTH...

Neither do I claim to have this distinction... but in naming A.E. Knoch's notations, you thereby hold them and adopt them to be your own... If he is indeed INCORRECT, then you have gained the very same platform. 

In my answers on TM or any other forum, ...I do not try or endeavor to convince anyone of anything.  Matter of fact, I recommend and note it to you now, that you continue to believe as you do, until GOD changes that belief via your studies and prayer.  If any words I say to you take part in that change, it is not I that have done anything, it is HE which has taken my words and used them concerning you (and/or others)...

I believe what God has shown me, and sincerely follow that trail (as do you!).  If it does not speak to you... no sweat bro  :sweat: :pointlaugh: ...I state a viewpoint which I believe has been revealed to me... If it does or does not speak to others is not my concern.  I am concerned with what GOD thinks of it, not men...  And if it is found TRUE and WORTHY because that "revelation" indeed came from Him... then HE shall use it, as HE SHALL...  :dontknow:

Just some things to think about.
Peace bro!

Tony

And same to you (things to think about, and peace) as well dear brother!  :cloud9:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Tony N]

Maybe i am not quite understanding some of whats being said.

So, one question, my next question will be based on the answers I get.

1. When anyone dies physically on this earth, whether they be unbelievers or believers,  are they in the grave spiritually "likened to sleep"?


Thank you

By "spiritually" I think you mean "metaphorically." "Are they in the grave metaphorically 'likened to sleep'"?

There is nothing spiritual about real death. The term "sleep of death" is just a metaphor for death. It is like sleep only in that the person awakes to life out of death.

Let me ask this a different way.


We have a believer and an unbeliever that both die on the same day.  Where is the spirit of the unbeliever and where is the spirit of the believer immediatly after their death on this earth?

The Bible says that the spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl.12:7). That is saying that the spirit of all mankind go back to God. But does that mean that the spirit goes to "heaven" when a person dies? No. Where is God? God is everywhere. Heaven and earth and the heavens of heavens cannot contain Him. 1Ki 8:27 "But, is it true? --Elohim dwells on the earth! lo, the heavens, and the heavens of the heavens do not contain You, how much less this house which I have builded!" (see Isa.66:1 also).
So since "in Him we are moving and living and are" (Acts 17:28) when we die the very moment our spirit exits our body it is with God for God is everywhere.

[Tony N]

willieH: Hi TonyN... :hithere:

Dear willieH, I hope you don't take this the wrong way but as I was reading what you wrote on "time" etc. I could not help but think you are too deeply steeped in Platonistic ideas.

[Wint O Green]

So since "in Him we are moving and living and are" (Acts 17:28) when we die the very moment our spirit exits our body it is with God for God is everywhere. Tony i totally agree with you on this.  :bigGrin:

[sparrow]

willieH: Hi TonyN... :hithere:

First, I receive, and thoroughly enjoy the "Savior of ALL newsletter"!  Thanks!  :thumbsup:

A few comments on your post... you are more than welcome to disagree with them if you choose!  :grin:

At the start of the Millennium the nations are chastened for the duration of that 1000 year eon. The people of those goat nations who die during that eon will later be resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne and be set right.

To begin with, the "millennium" is NOT a Biblical term... and it is furthermore a mention within a book of SYMBOLS which further calls a LITERAL "1000 year" period into question...

ALL things are being worked together by, and according TO, the WILL of GOD (Eph 1:11) ...which in the end means, that ALL THINGS are under His control as to HOW, WHEN and WHY they occur within the realm of time...

I am not sure what God is going to do at the GWT. It might be He is going to reveal to them that that they have all been died for. They will all give an account though or a word as to their acts. I think the real sad part is they will miss out on the most glorious eon.

The "EON" that some perceive as a "1000 year millennium" is simply the DAY of YHVH in which ALL GENERATIONS appear (Gen 2:4)...  ALL things are placed upon the only foundation (CHRIST) during this "DAY"... and upon that placement, their individual "JUDGMENTS" of those things/deeds, ...take place (1 Cor 3:11:15)

ALL things/deeds -- that are done IN CHRIST (life), shall abide the FIRE (which is this life)... ALL things/deeds -- that are NOT IN CHRIST (death)... shall perish...

We stand before the Great White Throne, EVERY DAY of our lives bro... NOW is the JUDGMENT of this WORLD [KOSMOS/creation] (John 12:31) 

There is no need of "future" (according to time) activity of JUDGMENT, for it is an ETERNAL act of GOD, which observes and deduces its conclusions as that activity occurs, ...but said JUDGMENT is NOT tied to TIME (past or future)... The JUDGMENT is NOW, not in the past, not in the future, ...NOW...

Of course, not all (maybe none?) here who frequent these boards share my view on this.

We're all learning brother T... and our views in some capacities are complete (learned and true), and in others incomplete (unlearned and veiled, and therefore untrue)...

It is through our diligent and prayerful study, which includes discussion, that GOD works TRUTH into our vision...  :cloud9:

Believers are disciplined in this life so as not to be condemned with the word (1 Cor.11:32). We do not have an adversative judgment awaiting us in the future.

I do not believe ANYONE has "adversative judgment" awaiting them... this would contain an element of FEAR... FEAR (as in apprehension, horror, or fright) is NOT a part of LOVE...  Don't know about you, but I NEVER FEAR those I LOVE and that I KNOW ...LOVE ME!

I KNOW that GOD LOVES me... so what is there to FEAR?  My wife loves me, my daughter loves me, my best friend loves me, maybe even YOU love me, what is there to FEAR from those who LOVE us?   

This is yet another fallacy (IMO) which is NOT GOOD NEWS... GOOD news is that GOD LOVES you and sent JESUS to die for your sin... NOT that He is "gonna get you" for your sin...  :dontknow:

FEAR is a form of TORMENT and has no PART in LOVE... (1 John 4:18)

ALL "torment" found in THIS LIFE, is due to SIN... which JESUS CHRIST (John 1:29) ..."took away"...

That which is "taken away" is no longer present (in ETERNAL terms)...  That we are yet IN TIME (not ETERNITY) and IN this WORLD, ...is the continuation or completion and fulfillment of ALL THINGS, which in part include SUFFERINGS which are being used in COMPLETING us! (Heb 2:10)

I believe regret will occur in ALL of us to the varying degrees that we did not find alignment with HIS WILL, in our lives on earth, and that -- SORROW which occurs as this becomes KNOWN to us, ...is the residue which is WIPED DRY from the eyes of the Children of the Most HIGH... (Rev 21:4)

When CHRIST is revealed in the here and now (this life)... what happens?  :dontknow:   

We TEARFULLY, ...drop to our KNEES, and with UNWORTHY LIPS, ...CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD...  :crywipe:  And GRACE, lifts us to our feet to WITNESS of the LOVE, LIFE and FORGIVENESS it provides... which is the GOSPEL...

Some shall shed MANY TEARS... others FEW... but ALL TEARS shall be replaced by the JOY of YHVH God... for HIS PURPOSE for ALL CHILDREN has been wrought and HIS ETERNAL PURPOSE come to pass in TIME... which fills TIME to overflow back into the ETERNAL from which it emerged... no past, no future... just plain old WONDERFUL, ...NOW...  FOR EVER!  :2thumbs:

P.S.  Sorry for being so long--winded!  :blush:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Willie..... :icon_flower:


WOW.

That whole post really spoke to me.
Thank you, brother.
I'm saving that one.
awesome.

[jabcat]

So since "in Him we are moving and living and are" (Acts 17:28) when we die the very moment our spirit exits our body it is with God for God is everywhere. Tony i totally agree with you on this.  :bigGrin:

I believe this as well.  An aspect I wonder about though, are some of our spirits held in some type of darkness for a time of judging and correction, while others are at peace "within" God somehow, and those will participate in the first resurrection to rule and reign?  S/w answering my own Q though, if the spirit "returns to God from whence it came", then there is no darkness in God.  However, it could return to God, then be placed in a "holding cell" by God.  Gee, I don't know, and maybe some of this we won't know for sure until we experience it.  James.