the bible seems to be pretty clear about 'god the father' and 'the coming of the holy spirit' and, it would seem, the divinity of jesus, why are universalists so opposed to the idea of the trinity?
i also understand there is a secondary problem, that of jesus being ALL man and ALL god (?)
doesnt the bible say 'with god, all things are possible'? why would this be such a point of contention then?
Hi BW
Some adhere to the triangle and others not. As you may have guessed by now I am not a triangle fellow.
This was debated ad infinitum here but is a topic no longer allowed here by request of the owner.
On FLF there is a study - Shema Yisrael (http://fatherslove.freeforums.org/shema-yisrael-t64.html) you may be interested in reading.
Blessings
Hi blackwings,
its not the case that universalists usually reject the 'Trinity'. In fact, the so-called church-faters who developed the doctrine (the term itself was only hammered out in the 4. century, but the concept has been present from the beginning of the early church.) believed all in Universal Salvation:Trinitarian Universalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarian_Universalism)
Personaly I dislike the term 'Trinity' and prefer the term Family or Community. I think that's far more scriptural. Also I think it is more about the knowledge of Father's Heart than about correctly dividing the Deity. But I had some God-encounters in the last few months that led me to a deeper study on this subject, which has absolutley convinced me of the triune nature of God.
UR was for me never about a doctrine but about Father's Love and my experience of it has led me to the place where I had to embrace the idea of Perichoresis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perichoresis). Sadly many people reject the idea of the 'Trinity' without actually really knowin what it means.
There have alway been different definitions of it from the early days on- especially between the western and the eastern branch of the early church. The reason for it was that the westerners saw it- influneced by their roman culture- more as hierachical, while the easterners were more mystic in their approach.The early church went down a dangerous path when they placed explanations of Father, Son and Holy Spirit above experiences with Him.
This website has some good information on why the early christians insisted on the Eternal Nature and Unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit (http://www.perichoresis.org/) and how they had to fight greek philosophy, roman law and jewish prudency to stick to their conviction of God's Nature.
Whatever you study always depend on the Holy Spirit, He is your Teacher and He will lead you into all truth.
I'm personally VERY VERY Trinitarian, but a Catholic and a Calvinist might still find me heretical on that regard because I don't buy into the "co-equal" classical definition because of Jesus saying that the Father was greater than Him. But at the same time, I don't take that as a bungee cord and jump off the bridge on the other side into Arianism. I do believe He's the Son of God. And Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was just like Himself, but that the Holy Spirit would bring glory to Jesus Christ. The Doctrine of the Trinity was originally first formulated by Origen. One or two earlier Church Fathers make isolated statements that some would take as the idea starting to grow, but many theologians agree that Origen was the first major expositor of that. Origen's apparently the father of both orthodoxy and of heresy -- at least supposedly :Sparkletooth:
I have to pick on Floyd for just a second over a typo. Were the Church-faters responsible for the modern obesity epidemic? Darn those religionists won't leave anything alone, in the way that God intended it! :laugh2:
There are a group here that believe in Universalism but not in the Trinity, however this in no way reflects on all who believe in the salvation of "All." This is a person issue within each individual, and is not taught here as a doctrine! It's importatant to respect the wishes of the powers that be, as the topic has nothing to do with Universalism! So let's respect the owners. So at this time I will lock the topic
For those wanting more information, there's a topic in the Member's Lounge regarding why at this link http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2732.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2732.0)