No Rapture

[ed]

I was reading another thread where is was said that a "minister knew that there was no rapture, but kept it to himself because that was no way to fill churches."

Where does Paul's 1 Cor 15:51-54 fit in with the book of Revelation or is there no time table relation?
1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I

[sheila]

the seventh trumpet,last trump......God's temple[heavenly body] is opened unto us..to enter

into the incorruptible abode forever. Note that the two wittnesses killed of the beast..have

lain dead n3 1/2 days...a breath of life entered them...a voice saing come up here..and the went

up in a cloud....[these are those who preceded those that remained in death..and the shall be with

Him when we see Him coming on the clouds of heaven..at the last trump..when those who remain

are caught up.

  Paul...knew someone 'caught up" whether in the body or out he knew not....and so,too..when this

occurs.

   Stephen..one who preceded in death..saw heaven opened for him,also..as he lay down his life

and at his testimony they beheld his face as an angel.

   Father does what He will...Jesus said, if I wish him to remain alive until I return..what is that to

you? 

   Enoch did not see death,for the Lord took him,Elijah ascended in a whirlwind. It is in the

jurisdiction of God to do as He pleases,and within His power.

  Jesus spoke also of such things..that some would not see death, that some would die and live..

...the scriptures testify in agreement..as to..what God did in Elijah's and Enoch's case..and also

God's power to preserve a remnant alive in the end.

  Regardlss,we must follow Him and walk out our coarse in accordance to His will.

[ed]

Thanks sheila,

I'm trying to dismantle a doctrine that I was taught as a child.  The rapture happens, takes all us Christians into the clouds, and leaves the the world to it's tribulation.

Seems like a mixing of Paul and the book of Revelation to me?

[micah7:9]

How long are people gonna keep the Enoch and Elijah thing going? Heb. 11:13,39. Then we have Jo. 3:13 Why is it that believers in the truth, find it a need to exploit that truth with man's imagination?
Eph 6:14  Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about in truth, and having put on the breastplate of the righteousness,

[WhiteWings]

Daniel 7:25 "He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time."

[sheila]

   men who are born again from above..do the originate from heaven or eaaarth?

  the spirit and power of Elijah..that must come again..does it originated from heaven

or earth?   did Enoch walk with God in the spirit or the flesh?

  you are confusing the natural man from below,with the spiritual man from above.

  was Enoch born under law or a law unto himself.

   the spirit returns unto God who gave it..that which is born of spirit is spirit.

  if He tells ou of earthly things and ou do not beleive..how will you beleive when

he tells you of heavenly things.

  man..though held in honour..who does not understand..is like the beast that perish

   the sentence above is the natural,corrupt man...........the born again man is taught of

God..and the Holy spirit teacheth him and leads him into all that pertaineth to the

son of man that is born from above..and ascendeth into heaven..for that is where he

originates from

[ed]

So what do you all believe about this rapture thing?

[micah7:9]

   men who are born again from above..do the originate from heaven or eaaarth?

  the spirit and power of Elijah..that must come again..does it originated from heaven

or earth?   did Enoch walk with God in the spirit or the flesh?

  you are confusing the natural man from below,with the spiritual man from above.

  was Enoch born under law or a law unto himself.

   the spirit returns unto God who gave it..that which is born of spirit is spirit.

  if He tells ou of earthly things and ou do not beleive..how will you beleive when

he tells you of heavenly things.

  man..though held in honour..who does not understand..is like the beast that perish

   the sentence above is the natural,corrupt man...........the born again man is taught of

God..and the Holy spirit teacheth him and leads him into all that pertaineth to the

son of man that is born from above..and ascendeth into heaven..for that is where he

originates from

"the born again man is taught of

God..and the Holy spirit teacheth him and leads him into all that pertaineth to the

son of man that is born from above..and ascendeth into heaven..for that is where he

originates from"

And there you have the only man who who born from above(born again) Jesus the Christ.

".... the spirit and power of Elijah..that must come again..does it originated from heaven

or earth?   did Enoch walk with God in the spirit or the flesh?..."

Spirit comes from above. Enoch walked with and then he died.
Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[micah7:9]

So what do you all believe about this rapture thing?

I gave up the "rapture thing" as proposed and offered in christianity some time ago. Some 35 years ago when I first heard about it in a Free will Baptist church, I searched for a year, looking for the word "rapture" in the Bible, but alas, then it was explained, and I believed it and preached/witnessed Hell Fire and Brimstone to the captured-raptured pews. Talk about a fear doctrine!
I also spent a very long time searching for the verse that was offered to me and christianity, "God helps those who help themselves." Another disappointment.

Will there be a caught-up/snatched up? I believe so. :dsunny:

[sheila]

those that remain alive[of His spirit]at His coming shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

  the mortal bodies shall put on incorruptible  All that died previously will be with Him at that time

   God has said...'my spirit will not alwas striveth with man..in that he is but flesh[meaning those

who have not been born again from above as yet]

   when He speaks..the end of all flesh is before me...He speaaks of the consummation/harvest

  when He speaks..'if those days had not been cut short[3 1/2]no flesh would survive....that

surviving flesh is of the remnant that remain alive and are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

    there is a time  where the natural/flesh man is no more..and the new creature spirit man

is all there is...it is a time of Zion's full number..that only He knows...............

   to the carnal unregenerated natural man...He comes as a theif in the night..and he looses

his natural carnal life[seperated from his sin with the sword of His mouth..and divided] so that

the spirit man may live

to the spirit born man..who is all but happy to lose the body undergoing this death  that waits

for Him..he is changed in the twinkling of an eye

  to the carnal man,Christ is the odour of death..to the spiritual man..He is the odour of life!

   life in the sinful flesh is a death unto the spirit.....life in the spirit is a death unto sinful flesh....

  thus the enmity between the two seeds

  to those that look to Him..a long awaited deliverance from the body undergoing this death...

  but those that are carnal will be terrified..for they will perceive it as death coming..not

realizing that the beginning of the spiritual etrnal has come.

  my  :2c:

    Micah; did they walk b faith? do we live by faith? are we perfected in flesh or spirit? each in his order?

   

[dajomaco]

I believe the mortal man has a registration of time and a measuring of time.
The mind of a mortal man has a self-regulating clock.
The mortal mind clock is common to all mankind.
Past, present, future.

When immortality swallows mortality.
There is a new clock the immortal see the beginning and the end at the same time.
The rapture does not exist in immortality.

[micah7:9]

Job 14:5  Seeing his days are determined, The number of his months is with thee, And thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6  Look away from him, that he may rest, Till he shall accomplish, as a hireling, his day.
Job 14:7  For there is hope of a tree, If it be cut down, that it will sprout again, And that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8  Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, And the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9  Yet through the scent of water it will bud, And put forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10  But man dieth, and is laid low: Yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11  As the waters fail from the sea, And the river wasteth and drieth up;
Job 14:12  So man lieth down and riseth not: Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, Nor be roused out of their sleep.
Job 14:13  Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14  If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my warfare would I wait, Till my release should come.
Job 14:15  Thou wouldest call, and I would answer thee: Thou wouldest have a desire to the work of thy hands.

[sheila]

behold..the BRANCH! of the stump of Jesse

[micah7:9]

I BEHOLD sister, I BEHOLD! :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

"I am not sure if Ray Smith's views are welcome on this forum..."
Should there be truth in any view, I believe they would be welcome on any forum. And why not?

Know this, the "rapture theory/teaching" is probably the biggest money maker besides the one man monetary gain of Hal Lindsey. We must give credit to Scofield and other despensationalists, who got in the theology money market with "study" bibles. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

So what do you all believe about this rapture thing?

It has very little, if any, support in Greek.
It doesn't fit in the marriage custom context of the 10 virgins.
It contradicts Acts 28:11-14.

Yes, people are 'raptured' but they are going in the direction that's opposite of the rapture teachings.

[WhiteWings]

Quoting that verse again.
Daniel 7:25 "He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time."


"He will speak against the Most High
--> Sounds like satan setting up his empire in Revelation.

and oppress his saints
--> How can raptured saints be oppressed?

and try to change the set times and the laws.
--> Abolish laws and festivals (=set times)

The saints will be handed over to him for a time,
--> Satan surely won't rule the show in heaven, where Christ is supposed to have raptured people too.

times and half a time."
--> 3.5 years of Revelation

Note: All of the elect are saints but not all saints are part of the elect.

[eaglesway]

I really dont want to giv what could be construed as a doctrine on this. Just offering my thoughts.

The words parousia,(coming Mat 24:27), epiphania (appearing 2 tim 1:10), apocalupsis (revelation, manifestation, unveiling 1 Cor 1:7), and phaino(flash, shine appear) are all words used in relation to what pop Christianity has dubbed, "the rapture"- a word that never appears in the scriptures. Parousia is the word that pop theologians claim means rapture, but it is routinely translated "coming" and its root meaning is "presence"..... so it is NOT "going" in my opinion.

All these aspects are what the revelation, the unveiling, the apocalypse, the universal inner epiphany of the manifestation of Jesus and the sons of God is. It has already begun(dawn). The same words were used of Jesus' birth(a light to the nations). The same words are used of various stages of this mystery that is opening up through God's plan of the ages, which is "Christ in you the hope of glory", and, "the gathering together of all things into one in Christ (the anakephalaiosasthai Eph 1:10).

The sad thing to me is that as people debate the details they usualy miss the essense of the unveiling, which is partaking of the divine nature "when He appears, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is".

The whole gospel is about transformation (the individual, the kingdom of priests/sons, the whole creation) into the "newness" of Christ- "Behold I make all things new."

Somehow the word apocalypse became attached to the judgment of the world when it should be attached to the "epiphanea of the musterion(mystery) of Messiah"- which is the redemption(purchased by His blood), reconcialtion(effected by His blood), and restoration of all(effected by the water of the word/logos and the spirit).

I believe in the second advent as a spiritual event of unfathomable magnitude that will have a consummation in history, but it is much like the opening of a rose.


In Abraham we were in the shoot just rising from the seed.....Under the law we were in the thorn, branching out with the promise of good things to come....Now we are in the bud, just opening and glory beginning to be revealed.....then we will be in the full bloom that will never fade or fall, the beginning of the ministry of the manifested sons of God is a ministry of reconciliation and restoration for the whole cosmos.

"For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting peoples sins against them, and He has entrusted us with the word of reconciliation"(2 Cor 5:19)...."The creation was not subjected to futlity by its own will but rather by the One who subjected it with the sure forward view that the creation itself will be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God and WE KNOW  INDEED that the whole creation groans and travails all as one until now.......and we ourselves also, having the first-fruit of the Spirit groan inwardly as we await for our placement(adoption) as sons, even the redemption(reclamation) of our bodies...(Romans 8:20-23 paraphrased and abbreviated by me)

I personally do believe in a historical consummation of these prophecies- but only as a moment where the streams of epiphanea, apocalypse, musterion and phaino(bright shining) all converge in a great moment of victory and universal unveiling FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTINUING thruto the goal of all transformative revelation....

God as ALL IN ALL.

I don't think it is a rapture as the word is defined in modern teaching- some quick escape from judgment.

Rather I think it is the fulfillment of the hope of the angels proclamation at Jesus birth- a light of revelation for all, God's good will towards men unveiled, and a forceful cessation(by force ofthe power of the spirit in truth and love) of the dominion of unregenerated man.

"Change your point of view(repent, circumsize your heart/see and understand and embrace) and return(to God) for the blotting out of your sins so that times(kairos/seasons) of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that  He might send the One appointed for you, Messiah Yashua whom the heavens must receive until the times(chronon-appointed periods/eras) of the restoration of all things of which God has spoken from the mouth of all His prophets from ages past(aionios/olam). Acts 3:17-21-amplifications by me)

Parousia means, purely, "presence"- not "catching away". Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord have come to us and we are being transformed(for all those He foreknew He predestined t be conformed to the image of His son). The glorious freedom of the children/sons of God is the unfetterred love of Jesus Christ :o). His "presence"/coming/parousia will be the result of an "unveiling"/apocalypse of the musterion/mystery/secret of the "ggospel glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus"(2 Cor 3,4) and it will cause an "epiphanea"/inner illumination that will spread through out the entire creation until there is no more futility/decay because all things are being made new. If anyman be in Christ Jesus he is a NEW CREATION in the (inward) image of Jesus.

Ok, I got carried away- take it with a grain of salt ;o)

[WhiteWings]

The sad thing to me is that as people debate the details they usualy miss the essense of the unveiling, which is partaking of the divine nature

The unveiling is after the 'rapture'. Many see that 'rapture' as something that happens secretly. It was just the opposite. Likewise the unveiling was done with lots of public.

"when He appears, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is".

Not correct. Christ isn't unveiled. His bride is.

When the bride was outdoors during her betrothal period she always was wearing a  veil. She was hidden. Just as the elect are hidden in the body/church. Just as Eve was hidden in Adam. God, even cut 'the veil'.

Finally, it has a strong impression that most Christians always see being veiled as negative. That's simply wrong. Yes, it can be used negatively as being blinded from the truth etc. But a bride was veiled because it showed society "I'm set apart for my groom. I'm only his."  :friendstu:

:2c:

[eaglesway]

the statement you referred to as not correct is a verse from 1 john. also from isaiah.... "upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples"..... their are many applications, but yes, certainly, along with Christ, the bride is unveiled. There are many unveilings- not all of them refer to the bridal aspect ::o)

[sheila]

 the 'secret person of the heart" the inner man renewed day b day" the new spiritual creature

  will find..when the see Him face to face[His face revealed] the shall also be just like Him[revealed]

   there is a death shroud[old body of death] that is removed.

[WhiteWings]

the statement you referred to as not correct is a verse from 1 john. also from isaiah.... "upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples"..... their are many applications, but yes, certainly, along with Christ, the bride is unveiled. There are many unveilings- not all of them refer to the bridal aspect ::o)

1 John 3:1-3 is very much about wedding. Maybe one day you will see the greater context of things. I'm no longer gonna argue or even try to prove my views. I've learned it's a waste of time to type all that stuff that is never truly read and/or understood or swept aside with a verse that proves my ramblings weren't read. I'm just gonna stick to my deal with God and post my views and leave it at that.
:grave:

[micah7:9]

I find this quite refreshing, " I'm just gonna stick to my deal with God and post my views and leave it at that." (WW) :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Well of course, why should you argue or prove, this is merely a discussion. However, it sounds more like you brook no opening of a particular narrow context, which you hav set. I agree that 1 John 3:1-3 is very much about the wedding. The wedding figures prominently in any discussion of the revelation of Jesus.

However, if you had really read my post, you would have seen that I was talking about the meanings in the Greek of 4 particular words, one of which, apocalypsus, means unveiling, as well as revelation- as I said in the post.

There is nothing incorrect about that nor does it run contrary to the unveiling of the Bride.

But Christ, as well, is being unveiled in us and to us everyday, and will be even more so on the Day of Days.

I am certainly not saying anything to reduce the importance of the unveiling of the Bride- but it is clearly not the only unveiling.

I might add that my post was not in anyway a repsonse to your "ramblings" it was just some observations for the balance in relation to the original question in the thread- that is what I was speaking to.

By all means tho WW stick to your deal with God, as we all must.