new to UR, need help with a passage

[arm82]

I'm new to UR (after 40 years in Calvinism) and I can't express my joy or my thanks to God for revealing it to me.  I'm reading everything I can get my hands on.  Lots of questions but I'll start with one (they're all probably quite simple to those of  you who have studied UR for a while).  I'll paste verses to make it easier.  I usually use Rotherham's (now that sites like this have opened my eyes to subjectivity in many translations) but don't have it on the computer.

2 Corinthians 5:19-20
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [a]He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Verse 19 sates that God through Christ has reconciled the world to Himself, but then Paul in the very next verse seems to imply that some response or "work" is necessary on our part as he begs us to do the reconciling. 

Romans 5:18
New King James Version (NKJV)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Romans 5:18 makes it clear that as the sin of Adam came to us without our consent, so the gift of life in Christ simply "comes" to us with no action on our part.  Why then does Paul beg us to do the reconciling if God has already seen it done?

Thanks in advance, Jeff

[redhotmagma]

God is already reconciled, He is done with the war.  The word evangelion is a military term.  When a war was going on away from home, the people back home would not know what was happening.  When the war was over, heralds would come back and declare that the war was over, the powers were reconciled.  Some people may not choose to believe that, and continue as if the war is still going on.  They were not reconciled in their minds, though in all other aspects the war was over.

Thus "Behold I bring you good news (evangelion) of great joy for all the people", the war is over (it was never actually taking place, but we believed it was, thats just the separation of this realm speaking, the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world)

[WhiteWings]

First of all :welcome: Jeff!



True salvation is fact. But the road to it different for everyone.

I assume you had/have very loving parents that never even have tought to kill you.
Does that mean it's fine to insult them on daily basis?
No, it is wrong. Even if they forgive you daily.
Plus because your parents never indended to kill you, it doesn't mean your father won't kick you in the butt with his large boots after you insulted your mother.
Similarly it's not good to insult God even if you know He will forgive.
God has very big boots and will not be mocked :-)

Another thing is http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/is-this-god's-plan/
Which harvest will you be?
Barley: First resurrection First fruit overcomer that rules together with Christ in His Milllenium Kingdom.
Wheat: Second resurrection wheat/sheep that misses those 1000 years.
Grape: Second resurrection grape/goat that gets cast in LoF (Lake of Fire) to wash out your nasty habits the hard way.

Compilation of good UR articles and a list of other UR sites.

[shawn]

I'm fairly sure many of us will disagree on the implications of this passage.  I am of the camp that does believe we must accept by faith in order to experience relationship with Christ.  I don't see it as saved and unsaved.  I see it more as some know they have been saved and accept the gift of grace and others do not.  I believe there are many Christians who believe in Christ, yet are still struggling with accepting reconciliation by grace.  Many are still trying to earn their way into the Kingdom, be good enough so they are worthy of the free gift.

So, in my mind there are three groups
1) Those who believe in Jesus Christ, accept the free gift of salvation, understand they have been reconciled to Him, and live their lives as a response to this free gift and the love of Christ.  This is Kingdom living.  Sanctification is a natural result of relationship.  Living by love for ourselves and our neighbor is also a natural response to seeking Christ, instead of trying to clean ourselves up.

2) Those who believe in Christ, yet still believe they must clean themselves up to be acceptable.  They try to sanctify themselves by "holy living", abuse themselves when they fail...and they will...run to the alter ask for forgiveness...then lather, rinse, repeat.  They can not and will not accept the fact that it's ALL grace.  It is merely another form of self centered behavior cloaked in the form living for Christ.  It's all about them, and it's not about Christ.  This person is trying to serve God and self...and you can't serve both.  IMO, this is Gehenna living...weeping, gnashing of teeth, anxiety, depression, distorted views of our God, unwarranted fears etc.  It's probably the worst place to live...as it is a form of riding the fence.  You can see the Kingdom, yet you just don't know how to enter.

3) Don't believe or don't care to believe.  At least here, you have not made a choice to cloak self centered living with religiosity.  You are your own God.  You don't know you have been reconciled, and don't live in reconciliation.  These individuals are also living in Gehenna.

But, the good news is that the story doesn't end here.  Our loving heavenly Father won't stop looking for the lost sheep, not in this age, or in the ages to come.  And the Bible gives us a picture of what this looks like when every knee is bowing and every tongue is confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.

[ded2daworld]

Doesn't reconciliation imply that we realize and acknowledge that we are sinners and can't pay for our own sin...
Recognition that Jesus has paid our penalty...
A change in our heart as we repent and as the spirit of God indwells us...?

To me, being reconciled to or with God is being saved in this life before mortal death.
As always, I could be wrong.

[WhiteWings]

As always you could be right.

And I think you are: http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/

[jabcat]

Hi arm.  Welcome.  Here's how I understand;

Peter said "confess, believe, you will be saved".  Jesus said we must be born again (spiritually rebirthed).  God has reconciled Himself to us.  Now He is calling the elect, giving them faith to believe on Him unto salvation.  In the next age the rest will be called and raised - each in own order [turn].  Every knee will [eventually] bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.  That must be by [more literal, "in"] the Holy Spirit.  Paul said not everyone as of yet is "of the faith" - they must have their turn, in their order. 

As far as "getting there";  God has reconciled to mankind through His Son.  He also says that we must 1) believe and 2) have faith to believe.  I believe He provides that, and that it is HIS faith He gives us, that saves us.  Here's something to consider though;  for me personally, I felt the Lord's conviction long before I finally surrendered and asked Him to save me.  I resisted many times.  One day He set the circumstances just right, to where I could no longer refuse Him.  Such a feeling of dread and fear came over me finally, that I knew my only option (and probably all I could do at that point) was turn to Him [reconciling myself to Him].  Paul said people cannot do that, cannot believe on the Lord unto salvation, unless they are told.   "But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?  Romans 10:14

So I believe God has reconciled Himself to us, but still is drawing each to Him to be saved in their own order, so in accord with His will, it's not literally completed on both sides yet.  On the other hand, when God says something will be done, IMO, it's going to happen.  :)

[jabcat]

 I like this powerful quote from J. Preston Eby -

"Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

[Molly]

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.  James 4:8

Be-ye-reconciled-to-God

"be reconciled"

G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.

"reconcile"
Restore friendly relations between: "she wanted to be reconciled with her father".
Cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.

[reFORMer]

There's an inconceivable amount of money in this world and God has deposited very much in your account.  Go spend some!

That's how I hear what's being said here.  The work God has done in Christ is sure, an occurrence, permanently established in history.  God is at peace with the entire world, not imputing their trespasses against us.  We should discover what differences this makes.  We should reciprocate by being at peace with God.

For me the hard part about the opening post's Scripture is to be like God and in fellowship with Him means we also must not hold anyone's sins against them.  Even a glimpse of ourselves or the world like this reveals a very different world.  What motivates God for the things He does then, since it isn't dealing with sin?  What are our motives if we treat nobody according to their sins?

[WhiteWings]

There's an inconceivable amount of money in this world and God has deposited very much in your account.  Go spend some!

Isn't it more like: Kneel before Jesus and recieve the key of your vault which has been filled by God before creation.
?

[reFORMer]

Well whitewings, you do say some of the sweetest things...

[shawn]

There's an inconceivable amount of money in this world and God has deposited very much in your account.  Go spend some!

That's how I hear what's being said here.  The work God has done in Christ is sure, an occurrence, permanently established in history.  God is at peace with the entire world, not imputing their trespasses against them.  We should discover what differences this makes.  We should reciprocate by being at peace with God.

For me the hard part about the opening post's Scripture is to be like God and in fellowship with Him means we also must not hold anyone's sins against them.  Even a glimpse of ourselves or the world like this reveals a very different world.  What motivates God for the things He does then, since it isn't dealing with sin?  What are our motives if we treat nobody according to their sins?

Amen.

[jabcat]

What motivates God for the things He does then, since it isn't dealing with sin?  What are our motives if we treat nobody according to their sins?

Hi James.  I've been thinking about your post.  It's raised a few questions to me.

I wonder if the view we sometimes take of "God not counting sins against us", to mean that God no longer is concerned about sin, doesn't notice it, doesn't deal with it, or hold man responsible for it, is taking the interpretation of that scripture too far.  Personally, I don't think it means all that.  I think it has to do more narrowly somehow with His action of conciliation, i.e., giving His Son for us instead of saying "no, they're sinners, let'em rot".

I think of you posting in the past about the sin of [active] homosexuality, for instance, and how it's wrong, a serious issue, etc.  (And I agree with you).  I also think of Paul turning the one over to Satan because of his sin.  Many other examples.  Paul even said there's a point where a believer is doing certain things, they should be avoided, not even have a meal with them.  Seems in those cases sin wasn't ignored.

So, I guess a few questions, with qualifications.  I agree, we shouldn't literally "hold people's sins against them" per se, as in being harsh with them, unkind, etc...we should love them, accept them as people (we all sin), treat them with respect, try to help each other, etc., etc.....  But could you clarify what you mean by the quoted line above?  There may just be a fine distinction I'm not getting and you can help me see it the way you're describing, or we may actually be very close to agreement - you know, semantics, communication in black and white vs. face-to-face, etc.   Thanks, James.

*arm82, as with most threads on the forum, you're getting more than you bargained for  :laugh:

[shawn]

I believe when our eyes are properly focused...and that be on Christ...behaviors fall in line.  But, if we are trying to be holy enough so we can pull our own weight, then we will continue to struggle.  I worry less about homosexuality's sinfulness than I do loving the homosexual.  I rarely worry about sin anymore.  What I do concern myself with is living in gratitude, grace and looking for and serving needs in others.  When I'm doing these things the sin just seems to be less of an issue.  I struggle less with the flesh. 

Again, with everything it's about our focus.  Where are our eyes?  On us?  On Christ?

[redhotmagma]

I believe when our eyes are properly focused...and that be on Christ...behaviors fall in line.  But, if we are trying to be holy enough so we can pull our own weight, then we will continue to struggle.  I worry less about homosexuality's sinfulness than I do loving the homosexual.  I rarely worry about sin anymore.  What I do concern myself with is living in gratitude, grace and looking for and serving needs in others.  When I'm doing these things the sin just seems to be less of an issue.  I struggle less with the flesh. 

Again, with everything it's about our focus.  Where are our eyes?  On us?  On Christ?

:thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

What motivates God for the things He does then, since it isn't dealing with sin?  What are our motives if we treat nobody according to their sins?

Hi James.  I've been thinking about your post.  It's raised a few questions to me.

I wonder if the view we sometimes take of "God not counting sins against us", to mean that God no longer is concerned about sin, doesn't notice it, doesn't deal with it, or hold man responsible for it, is taking the interpretation of that scripture too far.  Personally, I don't think it means all that.  I think it has to do more narrowly somehow with His action of conciliation, i.e., giving His Son for us instead of saying "no, they're sinners, let'em rot".

I think of you posting in the past about the sin of [active] homosexuality, for instance, and how it's wrong, a serious issue, etc.  (And I agree with you).  I also think of Paul turning the one over to Satan because of his sin.  Many other examples.  Paul even said there's a point where a believer is doing certain things, they should be avoided, not even have a meal with them.  Seems in those cases sin wasn't ignored.

So, I guess a few questions, with qualifications.  I agree, we shouldn't literally "hold people's sins against them" per se, as in being harsh with them, unkind, etc...we should love them, accept them as people (we all sin), treat them with respect, try to help each other, etc., etc.....  But could you clarify what you mean by the quoted line above?  There may just be a fine distinction I'm not getting and you can help me see it the way you're describing, or we may actually be very close to agreement - you know, semantics, communication in black and white vs. face-to-face, etc.   Thanks, James.

*arm82, as with most threads on the forum, you're getting more than you bargained for  :laugh:

Here follows mutually exclusive, paradoxical truths:

NOBODY IS GETTING BY WITH ANYTHING.  (Really, do you know of anything that's slipped by God?  Do you think he misses some things, that He forgets some people?)

EVERYBODY IS GETTING BY WITH EVERYTHING.  (Obviously everything being done is actually happening.  Whatever consequences may or may not ensue, everybody is doing whatever it is they do, right or wrong.)

I believe every new believer should learn this following verse, not only for what it says, but what it illustrates.  You must sometimes believe in two statements that contradict one another.  Both are true, but each makes the other untrue.  "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22²²)  God determined and pointed out ahead of time that Jesus would be taken and slain by the hands of wicked men.  Still, Judas is held as personally responsible.

We have this "Mystical Consciousness" required of us again here.  On the one hand, "...that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them," a condition I expect to conform to according to my own inner man as I walk in fellowship with God.  Yet, on the other hand Jesus says, "If any man forsakes not all that he has, he cannot be my disciple."  If we do not from the heart freely forgive anyone who has sinned against us, then neither will our Father in heaven forgive us.  We are to refuse fellowship with persons calling themselves brothers that persist living in specific kinds of sin, like fornicators, idolaters, drunkards, homosexuals, extortioners, and the like.  Here one path is the opposite of the other, yet we are to hold them both as true.

For now, this is how I deal with theseand other contradictions.  It doesn't quite seem double minded, first this, then that is true, undecided which to believe.  I hold both as one in the truth at the same time (and my eyes aren't even crossed.)

[jabcat]

:) I agree, it takes both things – in fact, all of it, doesn't it?  Attempting to reconile the whole, as best we're able.  I thought your statement may not be intended as all-inclusive of your total view on the subject, thanks for clarifying and "filling in the blanks".  :thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

I know sometimes no imputation of sin is the totality of my consciousness because God is not dwelling on sin in His mind.  He's free and has no obligation to have wrong, bad, sick and dying things on His mind.  The same is true of us.  We don't even have to follow this up with a balancing word to commend ourselves to others' carnal minds.

[reFORMer]

You're the jabcat; but, my previous post sounds like I might be stabbin' at you.  I wasn't.  I think you can say what I say there as your own confession.  I generally don't think much about whether the person I'm conversing with on tentmaker is carnal, or spiritual, or whatever.  That is, if they don't get all uppity and offended.  Sometimes I marvel at the Holy Spirit's operation within me of discerning of spirits or word of knowledge.  At other times I seem afloat on a sea of ignorance.  It's probably a lot due to this typing rather than face to face encounter.

[jabcat]

You're the jabcat; but, my previous post sounds like I might be stabbin' at you.  I wasn't.  I think you can say what I say there as your own confession.  I generally don't think much about whether the person I'm conversing with on tentmaker is carnal, or spiritual, or whatever.  That is, if they don't get all uppity and offended.  Sometimes I marvel at the Holy Spirit's operation within me of discerning of spirits or word of knowledge.  At other times I seem afloat on a sea of ignorance.  It's probably a lot due to this typing rather than face to face encounter.

At first I was like "uh-oh, I guess the shoe fits.  Size 10."  :laughing7:.  Then I thought it through a bit, and thought you meant it as a more "generalized" statement.  But I do appreciate the olive branch.   :Peace2:

[dajomaco]

I believe when our eyes are properly focused...and that be on Christ...behaviors fall in line.  But, if we are trying to be holy enough so we can pull our own weight, then we will continue to struggle.  I worry less about homosexuality's sinfulness than I do loving the homosexual.  I rarely worry about sin anymore.  What I do concern myself with is living in gratitude, grace and looking for and serving needs in others.  When I'm doing these things the sin just seems to be less of an issue.  I struggle less with the flesh. 

Again, with everything it's about our focus.  Where are our eyes?  On us?  On Christ?

I agree Shawn.
For me it's like chain link fence or something similar.
If you look through it and watch what's going on,
on the other side you forget the fence is there.
But if you look at the fence
you know some how you are separate from the other side.
It's hard to explain and people can pour meaning into words.
But because of Jesus and his sacrifice I have very little to do with sin.     

[shawn]

I believe when our eyes are properly focused...and that be on Christ...behaviors fall in line.  But, if we are trying to be holy enough so we can pull our own weight, then we will continue to struggle.  I worry less about homosexuality's sinfulness than I do loving the homosexual.  I rarely worry about sin anymore.  What I do concern myself with is living in gratitude, grace and looking for and serving needs in others.  When I'm doing these things the sin just seems to be less of an issue.  I struggle less with the flesh. 

Again, with everything it's about our focus.  Where are our eyes?  On us?  On Christ?

I agree Shawn.
For me it's like chain link fence or something similar.
If you look through it and watch what's going on,
on the other side you forget the fence is there.
But if you look at the fence
you know some how you are separate from the other side.
It's hard to explain and people can pour meaning into words.
But because of Jesus and his sacrifice I have very little to do with sin.     

I like that analogy.  I am convinced it really is about focus.  Is our focus on the Law?  Is our focus on love?  Is our focus on us?  Is our focus on Christ?  Instead of wringing my hands over my imperfections, and beating myself upon my failures...today I focus my eyes on Him.  I try to live in wonder and amazement...seeing God in all things (the hug of my daughters, a leaf on a tree, the wind against my face).  I set my heart upon gratitude, and living in that gratitude.  I don't deserve the life I have been given.  I am dripping with God's grace, and I want to live in that.  As soon as I start trying to earn that...I grow ill.

What I know is this...is that I didn't see any real growth when I tried to white knuckle temptation.  It didn't work.  I had no peace, no joy, and no real sense of purpose.  When I gave all that up, threw my hands up in dispair...and said, "LORD I CANT"!  It was like He said, "I know child, but I can"  So, like Peter I walk the rocky waters of this life with my focus on Christ.  If I look at me,or the storm for too long I sink.  When my focus is on Him, the flesh just grows lesser and lesser.  I see growth, I see change...and I see me growing into holiness even as I have already been made holy.

This is my understanding for today.  This is how I understand my walk.  If someone else sees some truth in that, let them be fed.

[lomarah]

Shawn I basically just went through the same thing. I can't - but He can. Amen. :)

[shawn]

Shawn I basically just went through the same thing. I can't - but He can. Amen. :)

Amen.