Justification, repentance, salvation?

[Farlsborough]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

[rosered]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

  Hello Farlsborough ,


I guess its 1  for me  and 2   depending on  how you ''perceive ''
  The best way I could describe it
  is   the whole world is   in heated controversy        and disagreement

I believe its the focus   of many     Christian or not

Personally I  believe it   is   ''inner peace ''    what   God means to you   and the relationship   and friendship   union   between  the sons of God through Jesus Christ   and inheriting the ''all things ''' 

  Only God can make your heart right with Him    its all about growing in truth and grace     , this does not end when your mortal life ends , its just the beginning of the new and living way in my opinion
He is the one who never leaves you or forsakes you
I believe  many have it turned around  in thinking its all up to them   how saved they are  , acknowledging God and being Thankful is what He wants and continued connection with Him  without end

Peter in the scriptures is a prime  EXAMPLE   of failure and proof , that its not up to us , but thru the fiery trails of faith   we learn Righteousness  of Jesus Christ in them

  when Simon  Peter   was given the gift of faith , it come from the Father   and what did Peter do ?''Confess Christ  is the SON OF GOD '''

Than we find Simon Peter his  names meaning    '', a hearing, little stone''   [hear what the Spirit is saying and the  lively stone  being built by GODS SPIRIT&  TRUTH]

  Peter had a false confidence    in Himself   , yes ,'spiritual pride '' , pride is the curse of many and this is where the  trials of faith come in  , testing our faith and humbling us to KNOW  THE TRUTH   and that is salvation is all in Gods power     

it made Peter a  liar  , when  He  denied Christ 3 times  before  unbelievers and threats  of his  own  self preservation

giving the  liars , fearful and  unbelieving     merit in the Scriptures !

What else did Simon Peter do    , the cut off the ear  of the soldier    with a sword , , metaphorical  for   using the Word of God to  cut off the  soldiers chance  of faith and saving grace  in Jesus Christ by violence    murderer

  Rev 21   ;8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

  and there is more   as we see Simon Peters    mortal   flesh being just that flesh and blood  that does not inherit  Gods Kingdom of   peace and joy and the Holy Spirit    , proving that   the flesh is an enmity against the Spirit   

and when Peter went back into   Judaism  and back into Law   and refusing to eat with the gentiles    because they were unclean  in his eyes  and falling  stumbling  in Christ Jesus and  from grace    being idolatry   
and when He   forbid Jesus Christ to go to the cross  because He was  wanting Jesus to stay with him  , Jesus called him satan an adversary     and not being mindful of the things of God but those that be of men       self serving  motives ,  the wisdom of the world   and   the very pride of life   

and   the main point I want to make here is Jesus Christ Himself told Peter   when you are converted and turned around     , that means walking in the Spirit and life  , that narrow path  that leads to Life   ,  feed my lambs and sheep    and  strengthen  the brethren

and so we have Peters  epistles    and some of the best witness  in the WORD OF GOD        to help us when we  read the Word of God

  and we all have to die     , its appointed unto man to die once and than the judgment

I believe Peter died to self and  began to live for Jesus Christ    and was judged  and he judged what was right in his own eyes   , but Jesus healed  him and made  him   whole    and being   new  in the sense of being a different Peter before the Lord Jesus began dealing with him

More Spiritual  and Christ like    , this image     serving others   and  less   mortal   and beastly  and carnal  in nature as self serving     

This  may not answer your question
  But I know if you are  really  seeking God and   sincere   HE WILL NOT FAIL you   at all
  you can really be blessed when you are asking Him for all your needs  and questions and  answers

[Seth]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

The term "justified" means "righteous," translated from the same word. What I believe does incorporate both #1 and #2, along with James 2:24.

Since Christ came to save man from SIN, repentance, justification and salvation are all different sides of the same coin. If one repents from sin he TURNS AWAY from it, and therefore is saved from it, and therefore is righteous (justified) because he walks anew. There is much confusion about what works have to do with that.

There is a difference between "good works" and "works of the Law." I believe that the Holy Spirit causes man to do good works, and those works save man from sin in this sense: if man chooses to love his brother rather than do evil to his brother, he is saved from doing the evil because he does the good instead. James 2 explains this very thoroughly. In economics it's called "opportunity cost" where you do one thing at the expense of another. In terms of salvation, James explained when doing works of love, it naturally comes at the cost of doing works of evil.

This is, again, by cause of the Holy Spirit within him, which is why it is not of ourselves but a gift from God.  This is why works of the Law do not save, because the letter is external, and the Spirit is internal, and works of the Law do not earn the Holy Spirit. I believe that Christ purchased inevitable salvation and justification for each man, and in their order, each will receive the Holy Spirit and be saved from sins and transgressions under which they formerly walked.

Paul kinda nutshells it in this passage:

Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace (ie made righteous by the Spirit), we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Notice what Paul says we were saved from: disobedience. How? By the renewal of the Spirit, not by works of the Law, for we did not purchase the Spirit by works. But once we received the Spirit it saved us from disobedience, and that is what works have to do with salvation. The result of receiving the Spirit is a new walk in love. That is the example James gives in James 2 when he talks about loving a brother through works, not sending him away hungry, and saying "be filled."

Being justified by grace is to be made righteous, "by the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit." Once we are given the Spirit, the washing and rebirth changes our walk. After all, Paul explains in Titus 2:11-12 that grace "chastens us to abandon ungodliness in this present age." If it does that, then the Spirit saves us from sin through that internal washing, and we are made righteous by that grace.

[Tom]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

I believe "justification" is through the faith of Christ; "repentance" is simply a change of mind; and "salvation" is promised to all mankind. I believe all mankind will be saved from death, which is the ration of sin, at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all. I believe some of us were chosen to be believers before the disruption of the world and to be saved from death when Christ meets us in the air. I believe unbelievers will be saved from death, which in their case will be "the second death-the lake of fire," when death is abolished.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

"For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus" (Galatians 2:16)

"He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight" (Ephesians 1:4)

"For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

[jabcat]

Lots of good info so far, with of course, some variations of viewpoint here and there :)

For me it's redeemed and justified by His death and resurrection - the gift to believers who have been given faith to believe on His name.

[jabcat]

As far as the #s in the OP - I'd lean toward 2, although I certainly do believe Jesus died for all.  It's just that not all will experience His Life until every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed Jesus.

[joeteekay]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

[/size]

I recognize that you posted a new topic today about the role of believers, but I have been considering your previous post which I quote above. Here are some of my thoughts, and I am sure others will have comments and I suspect debate what I post here, and I look forward to that.   

Salvation is a process.  How does it begin?  God has a plan.  That plan consists of three main events - Christ, the first of the first fruits,  then those who are His at His return and finally the rest of mankind in the white throne judgment.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

And the salvation of an individual in this eon is a step by step process.  So how does it begin?

Although the concept of predestination is a controversial one, it is mentioned in scripture.  Strong's G4309, defines predestination:  "to determine beforehand, to predetermine, pre-ordain".  So, did God determine beforehand who would be the Elect, those written in the book of Life?  These two verses in Ephesians would indicate this is the case.

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

If so, when did God decide this?  It may well have started eons ago, before the foundations of the cosmos.

Eph_1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Rev_13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God knows the end from the beginning.  He has a plan for all of humanity and works that plan precisely and perfectly.  So, if God knew before the foundations of the cosmos, who would be the Elect,  how are they, the chosen generation, the royal priesthood recruited?  Many are called (recruited) but few are chosen.  Just a few chosen to be Saints, the Elect.  To be in the first resurrection.

So no one should conclude that if you are called, then you are also chosen.  Yes many are called but out of the many only a few are chosen.  Why aren't the called and chosen the same?  Is God fair in calling many to Christ, but only choosing a few of the many who are called?

Rom_8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

From Rom. 8:30 we see how this occurs.  In order for a person to be chosen and justified, that person must of course first be called.  Many are called. Paul explained this in Philippians.

Php_1:18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Php 1:15  Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
Php 1:16  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
Php 1:17  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Php 1:18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Paul rejoiced in Christ being preached, even if He was preached by others for untoward reasons.  It is a good thing that Christ is preached, even by TV evangelists, because it is a process by which people can recognize their need for a Saviour.  If they believe in Christ and that it is only through Him that salvation is attainable, it provides an incentive for them to live moral lives and to live peacefully in society.  Thus the majority of Christians are the ones who are the "called".

There is only one way to enter through the narrow gate and become one of the Elect.  But it is not by man's will.  Only by and through God can someone become one of the chosen - the Elect.  People responding to an altar call at an hyped up evangelical campaign is often just an emotional response in an electrifying atmosphere.  Not a true conversion process in almost all cases IMO.

No one can truly come to Christ by self will or desire.  Nor by a preacher's strong and moving sermons.  It only comes from God the Father.

Rom_9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As for the ones chosen, they become the Elect of God.  They are the ones who receive grace from God.  The Elect have been shown the mercy of God and have the faith of Christ in them.

Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph. 2:8 is a very oft quoted verse and it has so much meaning.  "Not of yourselves". Again it is all of God.  The word grace is over simplified in Christian circles IMO, to the point that it has almost become trite.  Grace (G5485) is God's loving favour towards us. That is what grace is.  But is so much more because it accomplishes things in the Elect ( good works for example).  There is so much to understand about grace.

And of course grace and justification are related.

Rom_3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

One simple definition of justification is being made right with God.

I will stop here because this is getting too long and there is so much more to this big topic.

Col_3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Php 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

:Peace2:

[rosered]

  Hi Joe
    the elect of God were always  chosen to    endure  ''all things  '' against all odds     and  the world   was   unworthy of them all

  they held /hold  special honor and strength  by Gods Spirit & might  and  guidance  , but were despised of all men who loved the darkness more than the Light , because their works are evil

[bushy]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us

2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

No. 1 explains it better for me. No. 2 leaves it up to us to do something about our need instead of understanding that it has been done for us. Faith is simply believing the truth of what was done for us and that belief will result in our being healed and made whole. It makes a huge difference when we stop looking to ourselves or others and whether we have done the right things and jumped through all the hoops and just start seeing what Jesus did for us. And what he did for us he did for everyone else too.


Acts 16:29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

All this jailer needed was to know what the truth is and be convinced of its truth and of course then he would believe. I think he knew what the truth was because of the earthquake and the jail falling down and thought he needed to do something to be saved just like we automatically are programed to think. Repenting is just changing our mind which is the same as believing the truth instead of a lie.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Faith is what makes the difference but it doesn't change the truth. It's confusing to me to be concerned about faith and whether or not I or anyone else has enough faith to be saved. Much easier for me to know what Jesus did for me he did for all and that he is the author and finisher of our faith. I can relax knowing that truth.

[Seth]

No. 1 explains it better for me. No. 2 leaves it up to us to do something about our need instead of understanding that it has been done for us. Faith is simply believing the truth of what was done for us and that belief will result in our being healed and made whole.

Doesn't faith result in being healed because the Holy Spirit is given to those who have faith? There are many scriptures in the NT that suggest to me that faith alone is not what heals us, but the Spirit given to believers who are told, not only to have the Spirit, but also to walk by the Spirit and thus be healed from the damaging corruption of their former walk.

[rosered]

  This example is about healing   Seth when someone by faith intervened    that was not anything but a believer that Jesus heals




5 When Jesus entered the city of Capernaum, an ·army officer [L centurion] came to him, ·begging [pleading] for help. 6 The officer said, "Lord, my servant is at home in bed. He ·can't move his body [is paralyzed] and ·is in much pain [suffering terribly]."

7 Jesus said to the officer, "·I will go and heal him. [or Shall I go and heal him?]"

8 The officer answered, "Lord [or Sir], I ·am not worthy [do not deserve] for you to come into my house.


You only need to ·command it [L say the word], and my servant will be healed. 9 [L For] I, too, am a man ·under the authority of others [L under authority], and I have soldiers under my command. I tell one soldier, 'Go,' and he goes. I tell another soldier, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my ·servant [slave], 'Do this,' and my ·servant [slave] does it."

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. He said to those who were following him, "I tell you the truth, ·this is the greatest faith I have found [L I haven't found such faith], ·even in Israel [or in all Israel]. 11 Many people will come from the east and from the west and will ·sit and eat [L recline; C the posture for a banquet or dinner party] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [C the messianic banquet, a metaphor for God's restoration of creation; Is. 25:6–8].

12 But ·those people who should be in [the heirs of; or the subjects of; L the sons of] the kingdom will be thrown ·outside into the darkness [into the outer darkness], where ·people will cry and grind their teeth with pain [L there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth; C metaphors for agony and torment]."

13 Then Jesus said to the ·officer [L centurion], "Go home. ·Your servant will be healed just as you believed he would [L Let it be done for you just as you have believed]." And his servant was healed that ·same hour [exact time].

  the works were done  by the Lord in faith   believing He would do it    and HE DID!!!

[Seth]

Yes, belief led to the healing, but it was a healing of the body. Christ worked that miracle by the Spirit, and I believe what the Bible teaches is that post-Pentecost, there is an internal healing that the gift of the Spirit brings, which shows me that faith alone is not what causes the healing of either a body or a mind. The Spirit works the healing as a result of faith, being a free gift to those who believe.

[bushy]

I'm pretty sure I agree with all that. But isn't faith simply believing the truth? And if that results in receiving the Holy Spirit and being healed-over time as in the rest of my life- I don't see that I have to be concerned about whether I have enough faith or have received the Spirit or not. These are things that I had struggled with for years. Now I have no problem believing because everyone is included in what Jesus did. As far as walking by the spirit, that takes practice and as we learn that, we will stop fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

[Seth]

"But isn't faith simply believing the truth?"

The Hebrew understanding of "faith" is from "enumah" which means more than simply believing the truth, but being "faithful." Faithfulness is about fidelity and obedience, which is why I believe James associated Abraham's obedient works with his faith as being inseparable concepts from eachother.

[rosered]

Yes, belief led to the healing, but it was a healing of the body. Christ worked that miracle by the Spirit, and I believe what the Bible teaches is that post-Pentecost, there is an internal healing that the gift of the Spirit brings, which shows me that faith alone is not what causes the healing of either a body or a mind. The Spirit works the healing as a result of faith, being a free gift to those who believe.

  Yes , your right about that  Seth  !!    faith comes by hearing what the SPIRIT IS SAYING  :winkgrin:

[micah7:9]

My faith is in the faith of Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
Gal 3:22 But the scripture locks up all together under sin, that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing."
:2c: :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Amen

[bushy]

"But isn't faith simply believing the truth?"

The Hebrew understanding of "faith" is from "enumah" which means more than simply believing the truth, but being "faithful." Faithfulness is about fidelity and obedience, which is why I believe James associated Abraham's obedient works with his faith as being inseparable concepts from eachother.

Oh no, maybe I'm not faithful enough or obedient enough. Or what if I don't hold firm until the end. I'm tired of worrying about details like these and I don't believe you're trying to lay any of these kinds of things on anyone. I think there are multitudes of people confused because they think it is up to them to figure all this out and all they need is to find peace and rest.

Of course I also know this forum is for solving all the problems and understanding all the mysteries in the world.  :rolllol:

[Seth]

My faith is in the faith of Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
Gal 2:16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
Gal 3:22 But the scripture locks up all together under sin, that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing."
:2c: :HeartThrob:

I agree, because he gave you his faith. Then he gave you the Spirit to bring you to life in Him.

[micah7:9]

I see it as it is HIS FAITH that makes my faith sure. His Faith says All will be saved, His Faith that assures me that when I go in error, HIS FAITH will restore in me that I have faith. I can rest in that.

[Seth]

"But isn't faith simply believing the truth?"

The Hebrew understanding of "faith" is from "enumah" which means more than simply believing the truth, but being "faithful." Faithfulness is about fidelity and obedience, which is why I believe James associated Abraham's obedient works with his faith as being inseparable concepts from eachother.

Oh no, maybe I'm not faithful enough or obedient enough. Or what if I don't hold firm until the end. I'm tired of worrying about details like these and I don't believe you're trying to lay any of these kinds of things on anyone. I think there are multitudes of people confused because they think it is up to them to figure all this out and all they need is to find peace and rest.

Of course I also know this forum is for solving all the problems and understanding all the mysteries in the world.  :rolllol:

According to John sin is lawlessness. The only commandments we have been given are to believe in Jesus and love our neighbors. To me, that is how I define what I believe constitutes sin. Murder is a sin because it is lawless against "love your neighbor." The Holy Spirit's role in that is to conform us like clay into the image of Christ.  So, I don't believe the commandment to love ought to be heavy. In fact, Christ says, my yoke is light. Should the commandment to love your neighbor be seen as grievous?

[Seth]

I see it as it is HIS FAITH that makes my faith sure. His Faith says All will be saved, His Faith that assures me that when I go in error, HIS FAITH will restore in me that I have faith. I can rest in that.

I agree. And I would just suggest that his faith works together with his Spirit within believers to conform them to his image.

[rosered]

He is faithful as promised !!!


HE  cannot deny Himself   2 Tim 2 11 This ·teaching is true [saying/word is trustworthy; 1 Tim. 1:15; 3:1; 4:9; Titus 3:8; C what follows may be an early Christian hymn]:

If we died with him, we will also live with him.
12 If we ·accept suffering [endure; persevere], we will also ·rule [reign] with him.

If we ·say we don't know [deny; disown; renounce] him, he will ·say he doesn't know [deny; disown; renounce] us.

13 If we are not faithful, he will still be faithful,
    because he ·must be true to who he is [L cannot deny/disown himself].

[micah7:9]

I see it as it is HIS FAITH that makes my faith sure. His Faith says All will be saved, His Faith that assures me that when I go in error, HIS FAITH will restore in me that I have faith. I can rest in that.

I agree. And I would just suggest that his faith works together with his Spirit within believers to conform them to his image.

Don't see how there can be one without the other.

[Seth]

Well, the demons believe in Christ, but they tremble. I believe in such a thing as "false bretheren."

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.