2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 Who are the ones who will suffer eternal ruin?

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey Everyone,

2 Thessalonians 1: 8-9 "in a fire of flame, giving (fig, inflicting) vengeance on the ones not knowing God and to the ones not obeying the Gospel ( Good News) of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength."

God dealing out vengeance or retribution to the ones not obeying the Gospel who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His strength. Pretty direct and crystal clear. First, this eternal destruction is forever, thus it is not reversible. Second, destruction means ruin and does not involve annihilation, but rather a new state of conscious being which is significantly worse than the first. This is described as the absence of God's presence and glory (Mt 8:12 ;22:13;25:30 ; Lk 16:24-26).

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

[claypot]

Hey Everyone,

2 Thessalonians 1: 8-9 "in a fire of flame, giving (fig, inflicting) vengeance on the ones not knowing God and to the ones not obeying the Gospel ( Good News) of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength."

God dealing out vengeance or retribution to the ones not obeying the Gospel who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His strength. Pretty direct and crystal clear. First, this eternal destruction is forever, thus it is not reversible. Second, destruction means ruin and does not involve annihilation, but rather a new state of conscious being which is significantly worse than the first. This is described as the absence of God's presence and glory (Mt 8:12 ;22:13;25:30 ; Lk 16:24-26).

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {his...: Gr. the angels of his power}  8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {taking: or, yielding}  9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.2thes1.7....

Again, more for those who may read than for you, Chosen, I will respond. Thanks for the opportunity my friend.

Personally, after much consultation with God and His Son, I see these words as most promising to all people.

The Lord Jesus I see as the Divine within all people. Jesus, who enlightens every man who comes into the world.

  [That] was the true Light, which lighteth  every   man  that cometh into the  world .jn1.9

When this Divine within a person is revealed by God *(Gal 1.15) or sent by God then all that is within a person that doesn't know God will come under attack and be everlastingly destroyed. Then all that is of God within each person will glorify the Christ forever.

*Gal1.15   But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,  16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

When God feels like it He reveals Jesus in a person.

Do you see any of this Chosen? It may take spiritual eyes to see and not natural eyes.

4  But the  natural  man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.1cor2.14

cp

[FineLinen]

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

37: say hello to Dr. Marvin Vincent.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2210.msg65070

[willieH]

willieH: CoG37  :icon_king:

You think this to be an unanswerable point?  Don't make me laugh...  :laughing7: -- okay, I admit it, ...you did!  :laugh:

Do you even KNOW what is ETERNALLY "ruined" CoG37?  And IN WHOM it is "ruined"?  (Oh yeah, ...like most Spiritual illiterates, you ignore questions, dontcha?)

You read Scripture with tainted and obscured eyes... charging into this beautiful place called TENTMAKER, as a BULL in a CHINA SHOP with your less than Spiritual observations...  :thumbdown:

Hey Everyone,

2 Thessalonians 1: 8-9 "in a fire of flame, giving (fig, inflicting) vengeance on the ones not knowing God and to the ones not obeying the Gospel ( Good News) of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin, from the face ( fig, presence) of the Lord and from the glory of His strength."

God dealing out vengeance or retribution to the ones not obeying the Gospel who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His strength. Pretty direct and crystal clear.

Disobeying CHRIST, you post your FEAR and VENGENCE... in a DISGUISE which you call "the GOSPEL"...

Ignoring not only the INSTRUCTIONS of CHRIST (see Matt 5), but WILLFULLY IGNORING the MEANING of the WORD GOSPEL, which you claim to be preaching, with such AWFUL statements as: 

"God dealing out vengeance or retribution to the ones not obeying the Gospel who will suffer divine justice, eternal ruin from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His strength"

Preaching that our beautiful Father GOD YHVH, who IS LOVE, ...IS a BULLY of COSMIC proportions, UNREASONABLE and UNMERCIFUL, which "glorifies" Himself by dealing out VENGENCE, ETERNAL RUIN, RETRIBUTION... and amidst your FOLLY, you entitle this as  "GOOD NEWS"  :mshock:  You are to be pitied... :pitited: ...and prayed for...  :Pray:

What a SAD SACK vision of the "GOOD NEWS" is presented by YOU -- CoG37!  Focusing in on, and delivering to the WORLD, ...VENGENCE from God and FALSELY presenting it as "GOOD NEWS"...  :Yeahright:

JESUS Said (part of the TRUE "GOOD NEWS"):

Matt 5:38 -- ye have heard that it hath been said, an EYE for an EYE and a TOOTH for a TOOTH -- which is the MUD, ...YOU... are still stuck in brother CoG37

Matt 5:43 -- ye have heard that it hath been said, thou shalt LOVE thy neighbor, and HATE thine ENEMY -- which is your brand of GOSPEL disguised as "good news"

Matt 5:44 -- But I SAY UNTO YOU -- LOVE your enemies, BLESS them that CURSE YOU, ...do GOOD to them that HATE you, and PRAY for them which DESPITEFULLY USE you, and PERSECUTE you...

Matt 5:45 -- that you may be CHILDREN of your FATHER which is in Heaven...

Matt 5:46 -- for if you LOVE which love YOU, what reward have ye?  Do not even PUBLICANS do the same?

Matt 5:48  be YE ...THEREFORE... PERFECT, as your Father which is in Heaven is PERFECT

How is HE (our Father) PERFECT CoG37?  Do you even have a clue?  :dontknow:

Matthew 5, depicts HOW HE treats His "ENEMIES"... and when YOU DO this, you are emulating HIM... NOT by preaching FIRE & BRIMSTONE, and UNMERCIFUL VENGENCE!  ...THAT, is HARDLY the GOSPEL! 

The GOSPEL is about FORGIVENESS of those which are UNFORGIVEABLE!  (like I said earlier, do you even have a Bible?  Or are you just getting your [less than spiritual] stuff from a doctrinal statement)

THIS is the GOSPEL CoG37!  And if such is disobeyed by those who are called to preach it, they shall suffer accordingly... Better get yourself ready...  :sigh: 

Btw... Do you know WHEN this takes place CoG37?  Do you draw off the "left behind" series for your theological vision here?  :laughing7:  Is it your picture that this takes place IN THE "END"?  Any ATHIEST can draw that CARNAL conclusion... is it yours?

This, as is all SCRIPTURE is written in SPIRITUAL language... which CARNAL vision cannot see...

FIRST... if we are not obeying "GOOD NEWS"... then we must be bringing OTHER than GOOD NEWS - eh? (which is OBVIOUSLY what YOU are bringing with your VENGENCE and RETRIBUTION!)   

For the LORD told us to PREACH the GOSPEL to every creature -- Mark 16:15 --  The problem is that GOOD NEWS is not being presented to others from such as yourself CoG37... who proposes FEAR and VENGENCE (which is NOT a part of LOVE), in place of the "GOOD NEWS" as noted by CHRIST in Matt 5...

SECOND... We are ALWAYS in the presence of the FACE of the Lord, irregardless of our inability to observe that face...

You observe as a blind man which can't see the colors on the canvas... yet notes he has a "crystal clear" vision of this verse... :pitiful:

First, this eternal destruction is forever, thus it is not reversible.

Do you KNOW what FOREVER is, CoG37?  It is not just "from NOW -- on!  "ETERNAL" means whatever is attached to this word -- (1) ALWAYS IS -- (2) ALWAYS WAS -- (3) ALWAYS WILL BE! --  Without BEGINNING OR END... not just limited to "from now on" 

Second, destruction means ruin and does not involve annihilation, but rather a new state of conscious being which is significantly worse than the first.

Oh, what PEACHY and LOVELY -- "GOOD NEWS"!  :thumbdown: 

:omg: This is what YOU THINK is the "GOSPEL"? GOOD NEWS?  A "state" WORSE than the FIRST?  :wacko2:

This is described as the absence of God's presence and glory (Mt 8:12 ;22:13;25:30 ; Lk 16:24-26).

You talk about CONTEXT, then jump around like a jackrabbit... bringing your "GOOD" BAD NEWS to this board...

Matt 8:12 -- is speaking about the JEWS, who were the NATURAL CHILDREN, and to this day they WAIL at the wall... amidst a DARKNESS that is OUTSIDE CHRIST... (outer)

Matt 22:13 -- More of the same

Matt 25:30 -- The same

Luke 16:24-26 -- Please... this parable is about FAITH not about your BAD NEWS...

You need to get a Bible, and study for yourself, instead of taking another's words as your beliefs... this is a pile of garbage...

CHRIST was sent ONLY to the LOST SHEEP of ISRAEL... He spoke to the JEWS... and the GOSPEL was sent to them FIRST... then LATER, was made available to the Gentiles...

The JEWS were purposely BLINDED by YHVH... do a little study bro... its all in there... and it is GOOD NEWS not bad... Rom 11:25

GOD's WORD promises that ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED -- Rom 11:26 -- how can this be when MOST of ISRAEL went to their individual deathbeds (and are STILL doing so), without KNOWING or CONFESSING CHRIST?

Oh yeah... you avoid questions dontcha?  This question HAS an answer and that answer IS SCRIPTURAL... But the REAL and most PERTINENT question here is:  Does "Chosen of God37" really wish to KNOW the TRUTH?

...willieH  :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

37: say hello to Dr. Marvin Vincent.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2210.msg65070

:cloud9: Good one, FL...... :thumbsup: Good post also Willie.......Blessings.....

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey Willie,

Just the messenger Willie. That is what 2Thess 1:8-9 says bro.

BTW, All of Israel does not get saved, only a remnant of Israel God elects for salvation. Read Romans 9:1-8;27 and Romans 11:1-10

[Beloved Servant]

Weymouth:

Romans 2:29 But the true Jew is one inwardly, and true circumcision is heart-circumcision--not literal, but spiritual; and such people receive praise not from men, but from God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Religion has simply train wrecked an image of God.
In the context of correction this verse is botched beyond recognition by any translation I have seen.

G2673  katargeo  kat-arg-eh'-o

from G2596 and G691;

to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease,
cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without)
effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away,
make void.


God is a consuming fire


Who could not be delivered by the brightness of his coming?   The objection to the wicked being delivered has nothing to do with sound interpretion or biblical properness or anything of the sort.

The objection come straight from a carnal mind denying every promise God makes to mankind.

[martincisneros]

Hey Willie,

Just the messenger Willie. That is what 2Thess 1:8-9 says bro.

BTW, All of Israel does not get saved, only a remnant of Israel God elects for salvation. Read Romans 9:1-8;27 and Romans 11:1-10

No, all of Israel shall be saved means all of Israel -- you're presupposing the potter is useless with the clay and that the clay's left to fend for itself.  And horrible translation in 2Thessalonians 1, if we're talking the piece of garbage KJV that'll rot in Hell "forever and ever."  Wasn't even a good translation in 1611 -- nor have any of the tens of thousands of revisions of the KJV been any good.  Hugh Broughton, when asked in 1611 to endorse the KJV, said, and I quote: "I would rather be rent to pieces by wild horses than have had my part in the urging of such a wretched version of the Bible on the poor people."  Anybody can look at a Young's or Strong's concordance and see the thousands (over 20,000 in fact) of inconsistencies of the King James Version.  For instance, they translated 14 different Greek words with the same English word "depart."  They took the same Greek word, aion, and translated it with six different English words—some with opposite meanings.  The KJV contains a bona fide contradiction (compare Rev. 11:15 with 1 Cor. 15:25).  Actually several, but I'll stop at that one.

A.T. Robertson and A.B. Bruce agree that 'kolasis aionion' of the KJV has a literal meaning of 'age-lasting correction.

G. Campbell Morgan has said: "Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our eternal..."

Dr. F.W. Farrar says: "It may be worthwhile, however, to point out once more to less educated readers that aion, aionios, and their Hebrew equivalents in all combinations are repeatedly used of things which have come to an end. Even Augustine admits (what, indeed, no one can deny), that in Scripture aion and aionios must in many instances mean 'having an end,' and St. Gregory of Nyssa, who at least knew Greek, uses aionios as the epithet for 'an interval.'"

The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) definesaión thus: "The life of man, the time of life." At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics, and in the Bible.

Theodoret (A. D. 300-400) "Aión is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man."

John of Damascus (A. D. 750,) says, "1, The life of every man is called aión.  . . .  3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aión. 4, The life after the resurrection is called 'the aión to come.' "

  But in the sixteenth century Phavorinus was compelled to notice an addition, which subsequently to the time of the famous Council of 544 had been grafted on the word. He says: "Aión, time, also life, also habit, or way of life. Aión is also the eternal and endlessAS IT SEEMS TO THE THEOLOGIAN." Theologians had succeeded in using the word in the sense of endless, and Phavorinus was forced to recognize their usage of it and his phraseology shows conclusively enough that he attributed to theologians the authorship of that use of the word. Alluding to this definition, Rev. Ezra S. Goodwin, one of the ripest scholars and profoundest critics, says, "Here I strongly suspect is the true secret brought to light of the origin of the sense of eternity in aión. The theologian first thought he perceived it, or else he placed it there. The theologian keeps it there, now. And the theologian will probably retain it there longer than any one else. Hence it is that those lexicographers who assign eternity as one of the meanings of aión uniformly appeal for proofs to either theological, Hebrew, or Rabbinical Greek, or some species of Greek subsequent to the age of the Seventy, if not subsequent to the age of the Apostles, so far a I can ascertain."

  The second definition by Phavorinus is extracted literally from the "Etymologicon Magnum" of the ninth or tenth century. This gives us the usage from the fourth to the sixteenth century, and shows us that, if the word meant endless at the time of Christ, it must have changed from limited duration in the classics, to unlimited duration, and then back again, at the dates above specified!

  From the sixteenth century onward, the word has been defined as used to denote all lengths of duration from brief to endless. We record here such definitions as we have found.

Rost: (German definitions) " Aión, duration, epoch, long time, eternity, memory of man, life-time, life, age of man. Aiónios, continual, always enduring, long continued, eternal."

Hedericus: "An age, eternity, an age a if always being; time of man's life in the memory of men, (wicked men, New Testament,) the spinal marrow. Aiónios, eternal, everlasting, continual."

Schleusner: "Any space of time whether longer or shorter, past, present or future, to be determined by the persons or things spoken of, and the scope of the subjects; the life or age of man. Aiónios, a definite and long period of time, that is, a long enduring, but still definite period of time."

Passow: " Aiónios, long continued, eternal, everlasting, in the classics.

Grove: "Eternity; and age, life, duration, continuance of time; a revolution of ages, a dispensation of Providence, this world or life; the world or life to come. Aiónios, eternal, immortal, perpetual, former, past, ancient."

Donnegan: "Time; space of time; life time and life; the ordinary period of man's life; the age of man; man's estate; a long period of time; eternity; the spinal marrow. Aiónios, of long duration, lasting, eternal, permanent."

Ewing: "Duration, finite or infinite; a period of duration, past or future; an age; duration of the world; ages of the world; human life in this world, or the next; our manner of life in the world; and age of divine dispensation, the ages, generally reckoned three, that before law, that under the law, and that under the Messiah. Aiónios, (from preceding,) ages of the world, periods of the dispensatins since the world began."

Schrevelius: "An age, a long period of time; indefinite duration, time, whether longer or shorter, past, prensent or future; also, in the New Testament, the wicked men of the age, life, the life of man. Aiónios, of long duration, lasting, sometimes everlasting, sometimes lasting through life as æturnus in Latin."

Dr. Taylor, who wrote the Hebrew Bible three times with his own hand, says of Olam, (Greek Aión) it signifies a duration which is concealed, as being of an unknown or great length. "It signifies eternity, not from the proper force of the word, but when the sense of the place or the nature of the subject require it, as God and his attributes."

Pickering: Almost identical with Schrevelius in his definitions.

Hinks: "A period of time; and age, an after time, eternity.Aiónios, lasting, eternal, of old, since the beginning."

Lutz: "An age, time, eternity. Aiónios, durable, eternal."

Macknight: (Scotch Presbyterian.) "These words being ambiguous, are always to be understood according to the nature and circumstances to which they are applied." He thinks the words sustain endless punishment, but adds: "At the same time I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms, forever, eternal and everlasting, in other passages of Scripture, shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense, when applied to punishment, put no forced interpretation upon them.

Wright: "Time, age, life-time, period, revolution of ages, dispensation of Providence, present world, or life, world to come, eternity. Aiónios, eternal, ancient."

Robinson: "Life, also an age, that is an indefinite long period of time, perpetuity, ever, forever, eternity, forever, without end, to the remotest time, forever and ever, of old, from everlasting, the world, present or future, this world and the next, present world, men of this world, world itself, advent of Messiah. Aiónios, perpetual, everlasting, eternal, chiefly spoken of future time, ancient."

Jones: "An everlasting age, eternal, forever, a period of time, age, life, the present world, or life; the Jewish dispensation; a good demon, angel as supposed to exist forever . . . Aiónios, everlasting, ancient."

Schweighauser and Valpyv substantially agree.

Maclaine, in his Mosheim: Aión or æon among the ancients, was used to signify the age of man, or the duration of human life."

Cruden: "The words eternal, everlasting, forever, are sometimes taken for a long time, and are not always to be understood strictly, for example, 'Thou shalt be our guide form this time forth, even forever,' that is, during our whole life."

Alex. Campbell: "ITS RADICAL IDEA IS INDEFINITE DURATION."

Whitby: "Nothing is more common and familiar in Scripture than to render a thorough and irreparable vastation, whose effects and signs should be still remaining, by the word aiónios, which we render eternal."Hammond, Benson, and Gilpin, in notes on Jude 7, say the same. Liddell and Scott also give to aión, in the poets the sense of life and lifetime, as also an age or generation.

Pearce (in Matt. vii:33) says: "The Greek word aión, seems to signify age here, as it often does in the New Testament, and according to its most proper signification." Clarke, Wakefield, Boothroyd, Simpson, Lindsey, Mardon, Acton, agree. So do Locke, Hammond, Le Clerc, Beausobre, Lenfant, Dodridge, Paulus, Kenrick and Olshausen.

T. Southwood Smith: "Sometimes it signifies the term of human life; at other times an age, or dispensation of Providence. Its most common signification is that of age or dispensation."

Scarlett: "That aiónion, does not mean endless or eternal, may appear from considering that no adjective can have a greater force than the noun from which it is derived. If aión means age (which none either will or can deny) then aiónion must mean age-lasting, or duration through the age or ages to which the thing spoken or relates."

  Even Professor Stuart is obliged to say: "The most common and appropriate meaning of aión in the New Testament, and the one which corresponds with the Hebrew word olam, and which therefore deserves the first rank in regard to order, I put down first: an indefinite period of time; time without limitation; ever, forever, time without end, eternity, all in relation to future time. The different shades by which the word is rendered, depend on the object with which aiónios is associated, or to which it has relation, rather than to any difference in the real meaning of the word."

[martincisneros]

Whether or not you're arguing for annihilationism, this passage from 2Thessalonians 1 is dealt with extensively in this article on our website because of the erroneous rendering "eternal destruction":

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[Molly]

Hey Willie,

Just the messenger Willie. That is what 2Thess 1:8-9 says bro.

BTW, All of Israel does not get saved, only a remnant of Israel God elects for salvation. Read Romans 9:1-8;27 and Romans 11:1-10

The Lord always saves a remnant from the generations, even in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 1:9
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.



It's a farming concept, really.  Out of each of his crops each year, the farmer saves a remnant [the seed] to plant for the next year's crops.

In this way, it is the remnant that will reproduce itself into bountiful crop the next year.

This is the holy seed producing the new crop, or in cooking terms, the little bit of leavening which makes the lump [mass of humanity] holy.


Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.


"lump"

G5445
φύραμα
phurama
foo'-ram-ah
From a prolonged form of φύρω phurō (to mix a liquid with a solid; perhaps akin to G5453 through the idea of swelling in bulk), mean to knead; a mass of dough: - lump.

[FineLinen]

Hey Willie,

BTW, All of Israel does not get saved, only a remnant of Israel God elects for salvation. Read Romans 9:1-8;27 and Romans 11:1-10

37: Not only will all Israel be saved, the all that has come out of God, ends in God! That would be "the all", the ta pavnte. Our God is the Source of ta pavnte, the Sustaining Force of everything, and the Goal of everything: the whole enchilada!

Romans 11

HERE

[FineLinen]

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the...

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36=

ta pavnte/ ta panta, "in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming."

It is not in the limited sense of "nearly all", "pavnte" minus "ta

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix "re" means back again, again, anew--and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

[eaglesway]

The words "eternal fire" (aionios pur) in 2 Thess. are the same as the words used in Jude of the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sodom and Gomorrah were punished with "eternal fire" (aionios pur), the same usage as in 2 Thess 1:8,9. Are they still burning now? Obviously not- no more than those judged by water in the days of Noah are still drowning.

The translation of 2 thessalonians could (and should) be:
aionios- age-during; olethros- punishment; apo- away from;  prosopon ho he to kurios- the Lord's presence

In Jude, aionios is an adjective describing the fire as other worldly fire from God. The meaning is not predominantly endless time without end; there are over 170 uses of the word aionios in the bible and at least 70 usages signify a period of time with a termination. Here are a few.

Aaron and his sons "shall have the priesthood by a perpetual(aionios) statute" (Exodus 29:9). "Their anointing shall qualify them for a perpetual (aionios) priesthood throughout their generations" (Exodus 40:15).  Throughout their generations signifies that the period described by aionios is attached to the object of the adjective; that being the generations of Aarons sons.


Caleb's inheritance --- "Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance to you and to your children forever(aionios)" (Joshua 14:9). Obviously not eternal as in endless without end. History and the word of God show that Caleb's children lost their inheritance for thousands of years.


A "forever" servant --- "You shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever(aionios). And you shall do likewise to your maidservant" (Deuteronomy 15:17). Obviously, the word "forever" in this passage is limited to the length of the servant's life. If the man or woman lived only ten more years, then "forever" was ten years in duration. This verse in no way suggests (as some have contended) that such a person would be the servant of another throughout endless ages, both in the temporal realm and in the eternal. "Forever" endured for only so long as the servant lived; thus, "forever" was limited ... there would be a point of termination.



The punishments of God will be measured (with the measure you mete so shall it be meted unto you; you shall not get out till you have payed the last penny), and terrible(there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth)- but they will not be endless. "He that knew his masters will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes(not endlessly-quantified in measure to the offence), He that did not know his masters will and did it not, will be beaten with few stripes(not forever- quantified according to the nature of the offence).

[333]

in God! the all that has come out of God, ends

Amen Finelinen!!

IN the begining God created ....

Jesus said "I am the begining"