Tentmaker Forum

I've told them I don't believe in some sort of eternal punishment for those who missed the boat either.  Further more, I've come to have doubts about free-will as the be all and end all of every argument central to Christianity.  Basically, I've managed to alienate every Christian friend I've had in the past I don't know how long.  The only person who still talks to me as an equal is the little old (really old) Jehovah's Witness fellow who comes to the library to yell at his friend for being stupid.

Two objections are usually thrown at me.  The first one is MAN HAS FREE-WILL, AND GOD WON'T OVERRIDE THAT.  The second one is usually based on anger.  It can be summed up in three word:  "IT AIN'T FAIR".  I have to say, I empathize.  Jesus's parable about the workers in Matthew 20  is great if you are the ones who come in at the end ... not so great if you have been there all day.

The thing is, in a very human way, it really isn't fair.  How do you guys deal with that?

Ask em how they mustered up their faith to accept Jesus into their heart. It will probably just make them mad because ultimately it comes down to superiority for a lot of people. They made the right choice so they get the reward. What did Paul say about boasting?

 :thumbsup:RHM

Hi, I believe that we do have free will and UR is consistent with this.
On the second, this past two weeks have been sick.  A few times have been of mindset of not fair.  Two friends of ours, moms, are facing serious cancer battles.  Iffy and not good.  A family that have befriended, who skype, due to thier ability to mushfake a workable p.c. and fact that one friend makes about 300 usd monthly, are able to communicate with me.  Each week they see their breatheran literally getting smashed upside head until death, with two by fours. Fairness from our standpoint? I have did some pretty horrific things and if Sermon on The Mount does not put all to rest for Pharisee minded, do not know what will. 
Think we all have those moments, with suffering and passing of loved one, with sick child, with our society in West of being materialistic, etc..  Think can just be passing thing as one acknowledges it.  By our definition of fairness, Christ being beaten and nailed to cross is not fair, me being born, in face of others who sure as heck seem to have meant better to the world than me is not fair... I am glad our faith in God is not one surrounded by relavitism.  Praise God for sure.  Think tell people that is issue of egotism, we are not the Creator God.  In face of just above snippets and all that each of us has experienced, what ego, just like mine the last couple of weeks, to think that we judge such a thing as fairness at level of God.  In short VB, I tell those folks for that what I do is go to the Sermon and/or to mirror to understand such a thing better.  In my experience, this connection for folks seems best felt viscerally and not so much cognitively.
Peace.
Rich

RE;NO FLESH BOAST........This horn had eyes....LIKE THE EYES OF A MAN.......AND A MOUTH THAT

SPOKE BOASTFULLY.........As I looked......

     Dan ch 4  Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the Royal Residence,by MY mighty power......

     v 23  You,O'King saw a messenger..a holy one coming down from heaven saying.Cut down the tree

   and destroy it,but leave the stump,bound with iron and bronze,in the grass of the field,while it's roots remain

  in the ground.................let him live like the wild animals..until 7 times pass by for him..

.....and those who walk in pride...he is able to humble.

Where in the Bible did man receive a free will? I mean just how did it come about? Is it just the idea the logical human being came to as to the reason the woman took of the fruit? I mean is there any verse of scripture that stipulates that man started out with or was given a free will? The same thinking stimulates the idea that man was given a soul or that man has a soul. Is there any scripture or verse that gives witness to such a thing? These same people believe, no they are taught that they chose to follow Jesus, accept Him as their personal Savior. Many are called....but few are chosen...that may not be fair, but it is a truth. Listen and then HEAR. :dsunny:

Quote from: redhotmagma on February 11, 2013, 04:17:27 AM
Ask em how they mustered up their faith to accept Jesus into their heart. It will probably just make them mad because ultimately it comes down to superiority for a lot of people. They made the right choice so they get the reward. What did Paul say about boasting?

In a few places he said that he boasted to people about others.  The one which says what I think you might be getting at is:  Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (Rom 3:27)  KJV

Quote from: Rich on February 11, 2013, 04:53:26 AM
Hi, I believe that we do have free will and UR is consistent with this.
On the second, this past two weeks have been sick.  A few times have been of mindset of not fair.  Two friends of ours, moms, are facing serious cancer battles.  Iffy and not good.  A family that have befriended, who skype, due to thier ability to mushfake a workable p.c. and fact that one friend makes about 300 usd monthly, are able to communicate with me.  Each week they see their breatheran literally getting smashed upside head until death, with two by fours. Fairness from our standpoint? I have did some pretty horrific things and if Sermon on The Mount does not put all to rest for Pharisee minded, do not know what will. 
Think we all have those moments, with suffering and passing of loved one, with sick child, with our society in West of being materialistic, etc..  Think can just be passing thing as one acknowledges it.  By our definition of fairness, Christ being beaten and nailed to cross is not fair, me being born, in face of others who sure as heck seem to have meant better to the world than me is not fair... I am glad our faith in God is not one surrounded by relavitism.  Praise God for sure.  Think tell people that is issue of egotism, we are not the Creator God.  In face of just above snippets and all that each of us has experienced, what ego, just like mine the last couple of weeks, to think that we judge such a thing as fairness at level of God.  In short VB, I tell those folks for that what I do is go to the Sermon and/or to mirror to understand such a thing better.  In my experience, this connection for folks seems best felt viscerally and not so much cognitively.
Peace.
Rich

I tend to agree Rich.  "It's not fair" isn't based on logic, or even the notion of fairness.  It seems to be based on the POV that it isn't fair to me.  Not unlike what I think rhm was getting at.  It's just, there's so much anger when they think they are somehow being treated unfairly.  One lady told me that as a Christian, she had a responsibility to put herself first and take of herself.  She had (sorry, these are her words) 'Christian Rights'

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 11, 2013, 05:22:21 AM
Where in the Bible did man receive a free will? I mean just how did it come about? Is it just the idea the logical human being came to as to the reason the woman took of the fruit? I mean is there any verse of scripture that stipulates that man started out with or was given a free will? The same thinking stimulates the idea that man was given a soul or that man has a soul. Is there any scripture or verse that gives witness to such a thing? These same people believe, no they are taught that they chose to follow Jesus, accept Him as their personal Savior. Many are called....but few are chosen...that may not be fair, but it is a truth. Listen and then HEAR. :dsunny:

I've heard this said:  God said let us make in our own image, God has free will, therefore man has free will (not my argument, just what I was told to me).

I subscribe to Irresistible Grace, and if that is true, then Free Will cannot be true.  My Baptist friends believe in both, it seems, and have probably never imagined any contradiction.  That's buffet theology for you.

What I mean is ...

Eve was told, 'you shall become like God'.  Do you think that needing to have an influence on the outcome of things is desiring some kind of god-like ability.  We need to feel as if we have a hand in the future, and as such we have a certain amount of control.  Intuitively we know that if anyone is in control of the future they would be god, or god-like.  We therefore want to be like God, in that, we want to have (at least some sort of) control over a universe which at first glance looks awfully random.

We think we have free will, but it is an illusion.  Only God sees the end from the beginning.  He has pulled the wool over our eyes while He shears us, and with the wool, makes our spotless robes of righteousness.  If we had free will, we could cheat this destiny, but we can't.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 11, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
We think we have free will, but it is an illusion.

I am begining to think that too.  Then why did they make three of those movies?  You'ld think Free-Will one when the whale escapes would have been enough.

Quote from: VineBranch on February 11, 2013, 09:02:39 PM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 11, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
We think we have free will, but it is an illusion.

I am begining to think that too.  Then why did they make three of those movies?  You'ld think Free-Will one when the whale escapes would have been enough.

Willie didn't have free will either, as he was following the script.

Maybe ... just maybe ... there is an argument to be made that hell (the eternal torment one) and the notion of complete free-will go hand in hand.  They support each other.

Once one of them is seen to be overstated, and abandoned, perhaps ... just perhaps ... the other one logically needs to be as well.

My reasoning is this, both are based on the centrality of humanity, which IMO is the real issue being abandoned.  Once we see it isn't all about us, those things which were previously part of the philosophy that it is all about us, simply fall away.  Free-Will is the thing which leads us to hell because we decide to not follow God.  Hell is the place at which we arrive because we decide not to follow God.  If the whole notion of God being totally in charge is truly believed, then those things which would separate us from that understanding are null and void.  As long as we 'need' to be in control, belief in UR is a struggle.  Once we see that there is no way we are in control, but a merciful, loving, understanding God is, UR becomes a blessing.

 :iagree:YES

(The topic on "fair vs. just" ought to be brought back to mind.)

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So, because He's just (or, fair,) God's no respecter of persons.  What about Elisha, with the double anointing, contracting the illness he dies with compared with Elijah's taken up in a whirlwind, apparently to not see death as it was with Enoch?  Unfinished business seems a right answer.  The end of the Adamic life is not the end of the story.  There's more sorting out to be done beyond the grave.  We anticipate a resurrection for everybody.  This means we can't accept as true the popular belief in a false deadline, that it's supposed to be all over when you die.  Death determines our eternal destiny is a common deception.  If we who believe are subject to the same law it would be very bad for us.  Most of us would be stuck at a low level indeed, and with no possibility of progress.

Consider how our union with the death of Christ opens for us the gate of immortality.

____________________________________________

We would suppose some people out of all the billions, even by accident, would've gone the right way.  That's assuming freewill is how we function.  Scripture says what happens under the operation of man's will:

Romans 3^10-13, CLV...
10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just" -- not even one.
11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God.
12 "All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"

Why is this not believed by the people who promote freewill?  This testimony settles any idea there can be any salvation by reason of certain among Mankind choosing the right way.  Hear how it continues:

Romans 3^14-18, CLV...
14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.
15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood.
16 "Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways,
17 And the way of peace they do not know."
18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

The writer goes on to say how everyone's mouth is shut, how God's verdict is just.  Eventually we are brought to the fact, "The wages of sin is death..." as the judgement enforced upon Mankind.  Why keep asking people to choose which is clearly stated in scripture as only bringing death?  Even under the Law by which "no flesh is justified" and which "perfects nothing," under the Law which many turn to for justifying their faith in freewill, the word to "Choose this day Whom you will serve," is conditioned by the fact God's own spirit-quickening word to them was an enabling command to, "Choose life."  Yet, it proved not to work salvation for anyone if we are to believe the testimony of God.

Free will or totally programmed by God it makes no difference. There are so many verses that simply tell it clearly that in the end ALL WILL BE RECONCILED.

It is only religionists arguing about free-will or total programming by God.

Who cares?

There are those like Rich and I who believe in elements of free will and those who don't. Above and beyond this petty argument we ALL believe that ALL will be saved. :o) That is the MAJOR AGREEMENT.

I believe the beauty of God's love will eventually win every will into harmony with Him. You(hypothetical you) believe God has pre ordained every act and thought so that every one will eventually be in harmony with Him. Yea, ok- lets argue about how it happens rather than focus on the beauty of what eventually happens- :doh:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 12, 2013, 04:15:00 AM
:iagree:YES

:iagree:YES!

Quote from: VineBranch on February 12, 2013, 02:22:08 AM
Maybe ... just maybe ... there is an argument to be made that hell (the eternal torment one) and the notion of complete free-will go hand in hand.  They support each other.

Once one of them is seen to be overstated, and abandoned, perhaps ... just perhaps ... the other one logically needs to be as well.

My reasoning is this, both are based on the centrality of humanity, which IMO is the real issue being abandoned.  Once we see it isn't all about us, those things which were previously part of the philosophy that it is all about us, simply fall away.  Free-Will is the thing which leads us to hell because we decide to not follow God.  Hell is the place at which we arrive because we decide not to follow God.  If the whole notion of God being totally in charge is truly believed, then those things which would separate us from that understanding are null and void.  As long as we 'need' to be in control, belief in UR is a struggle.  Once we see that there is no way we are in control, but a merciful, loving, understanding God is, UR becomes a blessing.

:iagree:

I submit myself completely, I let go Lord! :dsunny:

Is that you surrendering, or is that God making you surrender, or is that you and God becoming one? :o)

Quote from: eaglesway on February 12, 2013, 08:41:09 AM
I believe the beauty of God's love will eventually win every will into harmony with Him. You(hypothetical you) believe God has pre ordained every act and thought so that every one will eventually be in harmony with Him. Yea, ok- lets argue about how it happens rather than focus on the beauty of what eventually happens- :doh:

Because somewhere along the line someone will ask me to explain that hope which is inside me, and I would like to tell them why I believe on the beauty of what eventually happens.

I see that but, many of us don't discuss so much as we present(me included :o) opinions as if they were facts.

Thats why I think we should be able to present UR from either the Armenian or the Calvinist view. The idea that you are going to convince a fundamentalist that man has no will is HIGHLY UNLIKELY- and IMO it is an inferior reason for persuading men of the salvation of all. The superior reason- as I see it, is THE OVERWHELMING BEAUTY AND GLORY OF GOD DISPLAYED IN HIS SON ON THE CROSS.....and the fact that the salvation of all is stated clearly in many verses.

In other words,(IMO) disassembling the case for free will is not the key to unveiling UR.

Why did Paul say I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified?

Because he knew that the core power of Christ was expressed in the words, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".
And, "Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing"!

He knew that the secret of the reconciliation of all was the preaching of the cross of Christ, foolishness to Gentiles and a stumbling block to Jews, but the power of God unto salvation in all who believe.

For everyone who is told, you will have no choice, someday you will worship Jesus, I would say, someday you will see the glorious love of God and the beauty of Jesus Christ, and when you do, you will fall into His embrace and He will fill you with the water of life. But in the end, I say, who cares? All will be one in God through Messiah Jesus and God will be ALL IN ALL.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2013, 07:12:39 AM
I see that but, many of us don't discuss so much as we present(me included :o) opinions as if they were facts.

Thats why I think we should be able to present UR from either the Armenian or the Calvinist view. The idea that you are going to convince a fundamentalist that man has no will is HIGHLY UNLIKELY- and IMO it is an inferior reason for persuading men of the salvation of all. The superior reason- as I see it, is THE OVERWHELMING BEAUTY AND GLORY OF GOD DISPLAYED IN HIS SON ON THE CROSS.....and the fact that the salvation of all is stated clearly in many verses.

In other words,(IMO) disassembling the case for free will is not the key to unveiling UR.

Why did Paul say I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified?

Because he knew that the core power of Christ was expressed in the words, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".
And, "Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing"!

He knew that the secret of the reconciliation of all was the preaching of the cross of Christ, foolishness to Gentiles and a stumbling block to Jews, but the power of God unto salvation in all who believe.

For everyone who is told, you will have no choice, someday you will worship Jesus, I would say, someday you will see the glorious love of God and the beauty of Jesus Christ, and when you do, you will fall into His embrace and He will fill you with the water of life. But in the end, I say, who cares? All will be one in God through Messiah Jesus and God will be ALL IN ALL.

You're probably right.  But my latest coffee encounters haven't been about the big picture.  They have been about answering questions like:  "Hey Vine, you have more peace than you did before Christmas, what happened?"  "I see my Father's love a little more clearly now, He isn't going to let anyone go:  neat huh?"  "What do you mean?"

But you're probably right.  I've never been good at presenting the gospel, I just talk about my dad, and the different ways He shows me He loves me.

Big difference in choice and free will.

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 13, 2013, 03:22:10 PM
Big difference in choice and free will.

Big, maybe, but to the issue of UR it may be a red herring.

Exactly

That is your choice.

It was late and I meant to come back (after my previous post on this topic) and point out how the other side of the argument, the extreme Sovereignty of God idea is also defunct, but I forgot.  Well, I'm back now.

The simplicity of it is how unbelievable it is (when you contemplate it) to make God create man and the lake of fire knowing ahead of time what would happen.  Such a God is willfully evil.  To make it worse, to unfairly save some shows He could save all.  The dead-end argument between man's free will vs. Divine Sovereignty is not our only option.  The good aspects on both sides fit into the ultimate salvation of all.

Fair doesn't matter where love is concerned.  That's the human part of you speaking.

It's like the prodigal son.  He runs off, has all the fun with the girls (or boys) spends all the money, drinks all the budwieser, then comes home and the dad says "its cool son", hugs him, gives him a new car and the other (human (not spiritual?)) brother freaks out and starts saying "Its not fair! Its not!  He did this, he did that!"

But love doesnt see it that way, to the 'father' both sons are equal, regardless of what they did.  The main thing is both are home and both come to their senses...except perhaps the other jealous brother who still has a LOT to learn...

Quote from: marcmarc on February 14, 2013, 05:03:05 AM
The main thing is both are home and both come to their senses...except perhaps the other jealous brother who still has a LOT to learn...

Both come to their senses except the other one?  HUH?

On the free will debate (argument), I'd like to say what I believe.
We do have free will.  Thats why we can oppose God's will in the first place.  If we didn't have free will we couldnt.

If I grab a gun and blow some kids head off, am i doing 'Gods will'?  WIll people say "Oh look at that lovely stand up Christian boy doing Gods work?!"  OR will the (rightly) say "Look at what that devil did (with is free will).  I hope God sorts him out".

mod edit

The way God wins us over is gets us to all eventually to conform to His will.  Why?  To hurt us?  Nope, because we were made in His image and created in love, we can only be satisfied when we 'rest in Him', (when we are home).

We can fight it as long as we like, but eventually love (God) wins over the hardest heart. 

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Quote from: VineBranch on February 14, 2013, 05:08:14 AM

Quote from: marcmarc on February 14, 2013, 05:03:05 AM
The main thing is both are home and both come to their senses...except perhaps the other jealous brother who still has a LOT to learn...

Both come to their senses except the other one?  HUH?

{MODERATOR EDIT} trying to explain this to you  I just dont have the time as you seem to have {MODERATOR EDIT}  Let people have their say without arguing with them all the time. {MODERATOR EDIT} im interested in giving 'my' opinion and reading other honest opinions. {MODERATOR EDIT}

Marc, I am a different moderator. I want to let you know that I am a proponent of free will myself. You are free to conduct yourself here in the love and wisdom of Christ, regardless of your views. But if you present a continuing need to moderation because you cannot conduct yourself in a civil manner, you will be banned from the site. I say this so you will understand that your view is not the problem here, your attitude is.

Lol bit heaviy on the editing there!  You would think marcmarc had been saying some really horrible stuff, which he did not!  Tut tut!

Bighunk, you are only too self-referential.  Contribute to discussions, please, and in a constructive way.  Hopefully I am not using words that are too polysyllabic.