Is this God's Plan?

[WhiteWings]

(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8347/godsplan.png)
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Were are the Saints before teh Kingdom starts?
What's the job of the Saints.
Rev 25:33 ---> Mat 25:33-46

[WhiteWings]

I think the above picture is a fairly good start but far for perfect/complete.

Mat 25:33-46 shows some get eaonian life and others get LoF. (second resurrection)

Rev 20 is about the first resurrection. The Saints reign for a 1000 years.
The rest of the dead will not be resurrected during that time.
After the 1000 years satan will be released for a short while. Rev 20:7

The second resurrection (rest of the dead) is after the 1000 year kingdom.
But obiously Jesus still hasn't put everything under His feet and God isn't all in all yet.
People in LoF. Satan is free and starts a war (with the living).
So somewhere something doesn't fit.

(http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/8347/godsplan.png)
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[ded2daworld]

Wow!Isn't the main thing you have all the arrows pointing up to eternal life?
We'll never know, and can't know for sure how it works out till it works out.
I mean, I'd like to know so I could confidently tell someone that asks what happens at the end of time but  ...

[lomarah]

Okay Wings I can't see the picture for some reason, or the smilies either but I just assumed the smilies were because the board is still mostly broken. Can you fix me? LOL

[WhiteWings]

Humm, that's odd. It shows fine here (and for ded)
Updated picture.

Download the picture

(http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/8347/godsplan.png)
Click to enlarge

[Deena]

Call me short sighted, but I'd like to know God's plan for right now. This life is what I must contend with and it is a bitter road. I find it difficult to believe at times that God loves His creation and would subject it to this on purpose. Sometimes I feel angry that I was even born. What is God doing?

[WhiteWings]

Exactly my thoughts. Job was a good guy and still completly broken down.
We even have a "Job" on this forum right now...

[Deena]

My heart goes out to the "Job" you are speaking of. Can anyone tell me why so much suffering? Is it any wonder we prefer to self medicate or resort to suicide. I just dont understand, and it is a serious road block in believing God loves us.

[Cardinal]

As hard as it is to understand sometimes, Job's experiences are the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double at the end.

It says a root of bitterness shall spring up at the "end" and defile many. It's not hard to figure out why. Things have to be raised up against us to bring bitterness. The wheat and the tares are raised up together, and the tares are bitter, actually poisonous.

But this is also where we learn by EXPERIENCE, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. There is just no way to have that made life in us, without experiencing it.

During this tribulation of threshing the chaff off the wheat, we have to be careful to not sin with our mouth, as Job's wife/soul told him to curse God and die. It would've be easy to do given the circumstances, but Job didn't.

There was not one thing Job could do but totally depend on God exercising our faith in Him for whatever is needed, and that's where He has to have us.

He looks at the end result of having sons raised up in maturity to set creation free, not at the means to get them there. If we don't look at it from that perspective too, we'll die in the wilderness just as the Israelites did, who didn't keep their eyes on the promise.

I'm preaching to myself here....My two cents...

[jabcat]

God bless all who are struggling. 

Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.    We'll understand better one day, but His plan is perfect.   I keep being shown my own weakness and inability without Him.  Without Him I can do nothing.  I personally need to keep trusting Him more and more.

[jabcat]

So Tony, good idea on the chart.  (thumbs up)

[WhiteWings]

A good start. But far from correct/complete.

The saintsof the first resurrection reign a 1000 years.
During those 1000 years:
- Satan is locked up
- The other dead stay dead
- Jesus is King

The second resurrection is obviously after those 1000 years because it's clearly stated they will stay dead during the 1000 years.
That means:
- Jesus + saints quit ruling when the second resurrection takes place
- Satan is released so starts to rule again for a short time. (max a year?)

The above seems possible until you consider the verse that Jesus rules until all is under His feet and then hands over the Kingdom to God.
After those 1000 years Jesus is far from succesful in putting things under his feet considering Satan will raise a vast army to crush the saints


So there is a huge contradiction.
a] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until the all-in-all state
b] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until satan starts messing things up again.

[lomarah]

Oh I just love you all so much. <3

As hard as it is to understand sometimes, Job's experiences are the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double at the end.

It says a root of bitterness shall spring up at the "end" and defile many. It's not hard to figure out why. Things have to be raised up against us to bring bitterness. The wheat and the tares are raised up together, and the tares are bitter, actually poisonous.

But this is also where we learn by EXPERIENCE, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. There is just no way to have that made life in us, without experiencing it.

During this tribulation of threshing the chaff off the wheat, we have to be careful to not sin with our mouth, as Job's wife/soul told him to curse God and die. It would've be easy to do given the circumstances, but Job didn't.

There was not one thing Job could do but totally depend on God exercising our faith in Him for whatever is needed, and that's where He has to have us.

He looks at the end result of having sons raised up in maturity to set creation free, not at the means to get them there. If we don't look at it from that perspective too, we'll die in the wilderness just as the Israelites did, who didn't keep their eyes on the promise.

I'm preaching to myself here....My two cents...

Card you are such a great example of true faith and obedience, it brings me to tears. (Gee, me crying again, that's weird... LOL) I thank God for you so much.

Wings and Deena - The Father does not like to see His children suffer, He does not willingly afflict nor grieve the sons of men, but it's the only way. It's the only way. Can a child be brought forth without suffering?

God bless all who are struggling. 

Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.    We'll understand better one day, but His plan is perfect.   I keep being shown my own weakness and inability without Him.  Without Him I can do nothing.  I personally need to keep trusting Him more and more.

Yes jab, AMEN! Same has been happening to me, there is NOTHING good in me EXCEPT HIM. He is the true vine. We must abide in His love.

Oh He is so wonderful! <3

[WhiteWings]

Another thing I'm missing in my diagram is Jesus.
The Saints obviously are believers.
But the second resurrections seems to be works based. Surely Jesus taught good works (help people) so the judgement isn't totally unChristian. But still I miss the "every knee will bow" part.

[WhiteWings]

Last update for today.



(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8347/godsplan.png)

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Click to download

Whoops.... The blue Satan free must read "Satan bound"

[eaglesway]

A good start. But far from correct/complete.

The saintsof the first resurrection reign a 1000 years.
During those 1000 years:
- Satan is locked up
- The other dead stay dead
- Jesus is King

The second resurrection is obviously after those 1000 years because it's clearly stated they will stay dead during the 1000 years.
That means:
- Jesus + saints quit ruling when the second resurrection takes place
- Satan is released so starts to rule again for a short time. (max a year?)

The above seems possible until you consider the verse that Jesus rules until all is under His feet and then hands over the Kingdom to God.
After those 1000 years Jesus is far from succesful in putting things under his feet considering Satan will raise a vast army to crush the saints


So there is a huge contradiction.
a] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until the all-in-all state
b] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until satan starts messing things up again.

Actually, I don't see the contradiction. Jesus rules for 1000 years with the kingdom of priests/ sons / overcomers. Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails). That ends the age. The next age begins including second ressurection(the "rest of the dead"=all the dead of all the ages who were not in the first ressurection or the firstfruits ressurection of Matthew 27:53), Great White Throne, Lake of Fire....until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... until every adversary is subjected (set free from futility & won into love- the glorious freedom of the children of God)- the last enemy is death(including the second death), when death is swallowed up in immortality God will be all in all. No more death=no more time=no more ages=totally time transcendant eternal existence for all creation.

[WhiteWings]

Actually, I don't see the contradiction. Jesus rules for 1000 years with the kingdom of priests/ sons / overcomers. Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails).

Makes a lot of sense but look at:

(Rev 20:3) The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. (After these things he must be released for a brief period of time.)

Jesus' reign is 1000 year.
Satan is locked up a 1000 years. And AFTER those 1000 years he's released. So unless the millenium of Jesus lasts longer than 1000 years I find it problematic.

That ends the age. The next age begins including second ressurection(the "rest of the dead"=all the dead of all the ages who were not in the first ressurection or the firstfruits ressurection of Matthew 27:53), Great White Throne, Lake of Fire....until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... until every adversary is subjected (set free from futility & won into love- the glorious freedom of the children of God)- the last enemy is death(including the second death), when death is swallowed up in immortality God will be all in all. No more death=no more time=no more ages=totally time transcendant eternal existence for all creation

I don't understand.

There are a 1000 years between the 2 resurrections. Jesus rules that period. Satan is locked up.
Let's assume satan is released for 1 year.
If Jesus still rules during that period as you suggested the millenium lasts 1000+1=1001 years.


There's another major problem (for me)

Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails)

Coup doesn't completely fail. Sure they were not able to capture the kingdom. But it clearly shows many have not kneeled before Jesus. If they did they obviously wouldn't be in satan's army.
So Jesus crushes the rebelion. What happens to the soldiers of that army? When/how are there corrected?

[eaglesway]

Actually, I don't see the contradiction. Jesus rules for 1000 years with the kingdom of priests/ sons / overcomers. Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails).

Makes a lot of sense but look at:

(Rev 20:3) The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. (After these things he must be released for a brief period of time.)

Jesus' reign is 1000 year.
Satan is locked up a 1000 years. And AFTER those 1000 years he's released. So unless the millenium of Jesus lasts longer than 1000 years I find it problematic.

That ends the age. The next age begins including second ressurection(the "rest of the dead"=all the dead of all the ages who were not in the first ressurection or the firstfruits ressurection of Matthew 27:53), Great White Throne, Lake of Fire....until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... until every adversary is subjected (set free from futility & won into love- the glorious freedom of the children of God)- the last enemy is death(including the second death), when death is swallowed up in immortality God will be all in all. No more death=no more time=no more ages=totally time transcendant eternal existence for all creation

I don't understand.

There are a 1000 years between the 2 resurrections. Jesus rules that period. Satan is locked up.
Let's assume satan is released for 1 year.
If Jesus still rules during that period as you suggested the millenium lasts 1000+1=1001 years.


There's another major problem (for me)

Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails)

Coup doesn't completely fail. Sure they were not able to capture the kingdom. But it clearly shows many have not kneeled before Jesus. If they did they obviously wouldn't be in satan's army.
So Jesus crushes the rebelion. What happens to the soldiers of that army? When/how are there corrected?

what I am saying is that there is a transition period at the end of each age. Like the period from John the Baptist into the ministry of Jesus Christ and the institution of the new covenant. when did the last age end and this one begn? At the crucifixion? At the resurrection? On the day of Pentecost? Just because satan is released doesnt mean that Jesus stops ruling and reigning. satan doesnt win the war. The king puts down the rebellion, see?

The 1,000 years as I see it is an age of reigning grace grace. Then perhaps a more intense period of fire. iMO these things are purposely obscure, so I am not trying to set forth eschatological time tables or anything. i dont want to get hung up in days or hours. Seasons may be as close as we can get :o)

[eaglesway]

Also, i think there is a period of correction, aionian kolassis that begins at the end of the 1000 years. the rebels will stand before the saints and angels of god and Jesus Christ and they will be exposed by intense light/fire/love penetrating their veils until the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses.

"till you have paid the last penny" so to speak, an olam time, indeterminate, "fit to the purpose' for each one different in lenght, many stripes and few. I think this is one of the "ages to come", beginning at the end of the millenial reign perhaps, and definitley lasting until death, the last enemy, is no more- having been "swallowed up" by immortality. For me, something like that is the only way the sequences in the scriptures make sense.

[WhiteWings]

Sorry it's still very problematic for me. (Note I wrote earlier another verse clearly notes Jesus rules without interuption so your view must be overal right)
Let's try to tackle one problem first


Jesus rules a 1000 years. At that point He should be nearly done.
But still the world is filled with military hardware and lots of soldiers.
All those soldiers died fighting against Jesus. They die.
Obviously they didn't die are saints. Likely they are goats.
So will there be a 3rd resurrection? A second LoF?

[eaglesway]

There is nothing that says they die after the second resurrection. 'the rest of the dead' are raised after Gog and Magog surround the city of God and are subsequently destroyed. All of the subduing that will be done in the age that follows the millenial reign will be "in the spirit" at the Great White Throne where the lake of fire is(IMO) burning in the presence of God and His holy angels(not earthly flames, but rather the penetrating light of the presence of God that consumes the adversary-darkness/death).

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Psa 2:1-12)


Also, we must remember(if we have the historical view) we are trying to build a picture with intimate detail of a period of time way in the future from one or two verses of scripture. I don't really think the details are available.

With that in mind i usually assume that anyone who makes bold confident assertions about such things is over confident and probably way off the mark(and that includes me :o)
I also believe that that time will be a transitional period where the veil has been removed for almost 1000 years and very much different than our present reality. Things which angels have longed to see into ;o)      Peace.

[WhiteWings]

There is nothing that says they die after the second resurrection. 'the rest of the dead' are raised after Gog and Magog surround the city of God and are subsequently destroyed.

Do you have  verse for me EW?

All of the subduing that will be done in the age that follows the millenial reign

No subduing at all during the 1000 years. Not even to people that are living and even are born in that age?

So Jesus rules a 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrection. I think we agree on that point. Right.

I think we also agree that Jesus will rule from the 1st resurrection until (but not including) the God all-in-all phase.



1---------------2------3----4

1= 1st resurrection
2= 2nd resurrection
3= Satan's final rebellion crushed
4= all-in-all starts
1-2 = 1000 year reign of Jesus + the overcomers
2-3 = satan's rebelion for a 'short while'
3-4 = satan's army corrected?

1-4 = longer than 1000 years; so "He must reign until everything is under His feet" includes the 1000 years but spans a period longer than 1000 years......?

3-4 = I can't find any verse supporting that view. From a ET pov it's clear. Straight to hell with those soldiers. But a UR view requires a time of correction

Also, we must remember(if we have the historical view) we are trying to build a picture with intimate detail of a period of time way in the future from one or two verses of scripture. I don't really think the details are available.

True. But perhaps more verses can indirectly connect to give more info

With that in mind i usually assume that anyone who makes bold confident assertions about such things is over confident and probably way off the mark(and that includes me :o)

Many have clear views on this topic. But when trying to make a diagram out of them can be very challanging. I think constructing a good diagram can give some great insight in Revelation.

I also believe that that time will be a transitional period where the veil has been removed for almost 1000 years and very much different than our present reality. Things which angels have longed to see into ;o)      Peace.

Actually not peace but war :-)
Jesus had a 1000 years of showing all sorts of good things. People don't just disagree but they disagree so much they start a huge war with massive armies. So it seems, to me, Jesus isn't very convincing

[WhiteWings]

Related link posted by Doug: http://www.georgewarnock.com/feast-main.html

[ded2daworld]

Struggles? As Linus, from the Peanuts cartoon strip authored by UR Charles Schulz said, "The growing soul is watered best by tears of adversity."

Ever work out with weights? The resistance isn't pleasant but we grow stronger and are able to handle more and more resistance. Overcoming is a great feeling. Growing and being more than you were and praising God for His wisdom in bringing into your life just the resistance (adversity) you are capable of handling. God is your perfect personal life trainer, bringing into your life what is needed for growth.

[lomarah]

Struggles? As Linus, from the Peanuts cartoon strip authored by UR Charles Schulz said, "The growing soul is watered best by tears of adversity."

Ever work out with weights? The resistance isn't pleasant but we grow stronger and are able to handle more and more resistance. Overcoming is a great feeling. Growing and being more than you were and praising God for His wisdom in bringing into your life just the resistance (adversity) you are capable of handling. God is your perfect personal life trainer, bringing into your life what is needed for growth.

AMEN!