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Were are the Saints before teh Kingdom starts?
What's the job of the Saints.
Rev 25:33 ---> Mat 25:33-46
I think the above picture is a fairly good start but far for perfect/complete.
Mat 25:33-46 shows some get eaonian life and others get LoF. (second resurrection)
Rev 20 is about the first resurrection. The Saints reign for a 1000 years.
The rest of the dead will not be resurrected during that time.
After the 1000 years satan will be released for a short while. Rev 20:7
The second resurrection (rest of the dead) is after the 1000 year kingdom.
But obiously Jesus still hasn't put everything under His feet and God isn't all in all yet.
People in LoF. Satan is free and starts a war (with the living).
So somewhere something doesn't fit.
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Wow!Isn't the main thing you have all the arrows pointing up to eternal life?
We'll never know, and can't know for sure how it works out till it works out.
I mean, I'd like to know so I could confidently tell someone that asks what happens at the end of time but ...
Okay Wings I can't see the picture for some reason, or the smilies either but I just assumed the smilies were because the board is still mostly broken. Can you fix me? LOL
Humm, that's odd. It shows fine here (and for ded)
Updated picture.
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Call me short sighted, but I'd like to know God's plan for right now. This life is what I must contend with and it is a bitter road. I find it difficult to believe at times that God loves His creation and would subject it to this on purpose. Sometimes I feel angry that I was even born. What is God doing?
Exactly my thoughts. Job was a good guy and still completly broken down.
We even have a "Job" on this forum right now...
My heart goes out to the "Job" you are speaking of. Can anyone tell me why so much suffering? Is it any wonder we prefer to self medicate or resort to suicide. I just dont understand, and it is a serious road block in believing God loves us.
As hard as it is to understand sometimes, Job's experiences are the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double at the end.
It says a root of bitterness shall spring up at the "end" and defile many. It's not hard to figure out why. Things have to be raised up against us to bring bitterness. The wheat and the tares are raised up together, and the tares are bitter, actually poisonous.
But this is also where we learn by EXPERIENCE, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. There is just no way to have that made life in us, without experiencing it.
During this tribulation of threshing the chaff off the wheat, we have to be careful to not sin with our mouth, as Job's wife/soul told him to curse God and die. It would've be easy to do given the circumstances, but Job didn't.
There was not one thing Job could do but totally depend on God exercising our faith in Him for whatever is needed, and that's where He has to have us.
He looks at the end result of having sons raised up in maturity to set creation free, not at the means to get them there. If we don't look at it from that perspective too, we'll die in the wilderness just as the Israelites did, who didn't keep their eyes on the promise.
I'm preaching to myself here....My two cents...
God bless all who are struggling.
Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. We'll understand better one day, but His plan is perfect. I keep being shown my own weakness and inability without Him. Without Him I can do nothing. I personally need to keep trusting Him more and more.
So Tony, good idea on the chart. (thumbs up)
A good start. But far from correct/complete.
The saintsof the first resurrection reign a 1000 years.
During those 1000 years:
- Satan is locked up
- The other dead stay dead
- Jesus is King
The second resurrection is obviously after those 1000 years because it's clearly stated they will stay dead during the 1000 years.
That means:
- Jesus + saints quit ruling when the second resurrection takes place
- Satan is released so starts to rule again for a short time. (max a year?)
The above seems possible until you consider the verse that Jesus rules until all is under His feet and then hands over the Kingdom to God.
After those 1000 years Jesus is far from succesful in putting things under his feet considering Satan will raise a vast army to crush the saints
So there is a huge contradiction.
a] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until the all-in-all state
b] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until satan starts messing things up again.
Oh I just love you all so much. <3
Quote from: Cardinal on June 03, 2012, 07:45:35 PM
As hard as it is to understand sometimes, Job's experiences are the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double at the end.
It says a root of bitterness shall spring up at the "end" and defile many. It's not hard to figure out why. Things have to be raised up against us to bring bitterness. The wheat and the tares are raised up together, and the tares are bitter, actually poisonous.
But this is also where we learn by EXPERIENCE, that what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. There is just no way to have that made life in us, without experiencing it.
During this tribulation of threshing the chaff off the wheat, we have to be careful to not sin with our mouth, as Job's wife/soul told him to curse God and die. It would've be easy to do given the circumstances, but Job didn't.
There was not one thing Job could do but totally depend on God exercising our faith in Him for whatever is needed, and that's where He has to have us.
He looks at the end result of having sons raised up in maturity to set creation free, not at the means to get them there. If we don't look at it from that perspective too, we'll die in the wilderness just as the Israelites did, who didn't keep their eyes on the promise.
I'm preaching to myself here....My two cents...
Card you are such a great example of true faith and obedience, it brings me to tears. (Gee, me crying again, that's weird... LOL) I thank God for you so much.
Wings and Deena - The Father does not like to see His children suffer, He does not willingly afflict nor grieve the sons of men, but it's the only way.
It's the only way. Can a child be brought forth without suffering?
Quote from: jabcat on June 03, 2012, 07:53:10 PM
God bless all who are struggling.
Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. We'll understand better one day, but His plan is perfect. I keep being shown my own weakness and inability without Him. Without Him I can do nothing. I personally need to keep trusting Him more and more.
Yes jab, AMEN! Same has been happening to me, there is NOTHING good in me EXCEPT HIM. He is the true vine. We must abide in His love.
Oh He is so wonderful! <3
Another thing I'm missing in my diagram is Jesus.
The Saints obviously are believers.
But the second resurrections seems to be works based. Surely Jesus taught good works (help people) so the judgement isn't totally unChristian. But still I miss the "every knee will bow" part.
Last update for today.
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Whoops.... The blue Satan free must read "Satan bound"
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 03, 2012, 08:22:15 PM
A good start. But far from correct/complete.
The saintsof the first resurrection reign a 1000 years.
During those 1000 years:
- Satan is locked up
- The other dead stay dead
- Jesus is King
The second resurrection is obviously after those 1000 years because it's clearly stated they will stay dead during the 1000 years.
That means:
- Jesus + saints quit ruling when the second resurrection takes place
- Satan is released so starts to rule again for a short time. (max a year?)
The above seems possible until you consider the verse that Jesus rules until all is under His feet and then hands over the Kingdom to God.
After those 1000 years Jesus is far from succesful in putting things under his feet considering Satan will raise a vast army to crush the saints
So there is a huge contradiction.
a] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until the all-in-all state
b] Jesus rules from the 1st resurrection until satan starts messing things up again.
Actually, I don't see the contradiction. Jesus rules for 1000 years with the kingdom of priests/ sons / overcomers. Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails). That ends the age. The next age begins including second ressurection(the "rest of the dead"=all the dead of all the ages who were not in the first ressurection or the firstfruits ressurection of Matthew 27:53), Great White Throne, Lake of Fire....until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... until every adversary is subjected (set free from futility & won into love- the glorious freedom of the children of God)- the last enemy is death(including the second death), when death is swallowed up in immortality God will be all in all. No more death=no more time=no more ages=totally time transcendant eternal existence for all creation.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 03, 2012, 11:12:37 PM
Actually, I don't see the contradiction. Jesus rules for 1000 years with the kingdom of priests/ sons / overcomers. Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails).
Makes a lot of sense but look at:
(Rev 20:3) The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. (
After these things he must be released for a brief period of time.)
Jesus' reign is 1000 year.
Satan is locked up a 1000 years. And AFTER those 1000 years he's released. So unless the millenium of Jesus lasts longer than 1000 years I find it problematic.
QuoteThat ends the age. The next age begins including second ressurection(the "rest of the dead"=all the dead of all the ages who were not in the first ressurection or the firstfruits ressurection of Matthew 27:53), Great White Throne, Lake of Fire....until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... until every adversary is subjected (set free from futility & won into love- the glorious freedom of the children of God)- the last enemy is death(including the second death), when death is swallowed up in immortality God will be all in all. No more death=no more time=no more ages=totally time transcendant eternal existence for all creation
I don't understand.
There are a 1000 years between the 2 resurrections. Jesus rules that period. Satan is locked up.
Let's assume satan is released for 1 year.
If Jesus still rules during that period as you suggested the millenium lasts 1000+1=1001 years.
There's another major problem (for me)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 03, 2012, 11:12:37 PM
Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails)
Coup doesn't completely fail. Sure they were not able to capture the kingdom. But it clearly shows many have not kneeled before Jesus. If they did they obviously wouldn't be in satan's army.
So Jesus crushes the rebelion. What happens to the soldiers of that army? When/how are there corrected?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 03, 2012, 11:37:23 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 03, 2012, 11:12:37 PM
Actually, I don't see the contradiction. Jesus rules for 1000 years with the kingdom of priests/ sons / overcomers. Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails).
Makes a lot of sense but look at:
(Rev 20:3) The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. (After these things he must be released for a brief period of time.)
Jesus' reign is 1000 year.
Satan is locked up a 1000 years. And AFTER those 1000 years he's released. So unless the millenium of Jesus lasts longer than 1000 years I find it problematic.
QuoteThat ends the age. The next age begins including second ressurection(the "rest of the dead"=all the dead of all the ages who were not in the first ressurection or the firstfruits ressurection of Matthew 27:53), Great White Throne, Lake of Fire....until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... until every adversary is subjected (set free from futility & won into love- the glorious freedom of the children of God)- the last enemy is death(including the second death), when death is swallowed up in immortality God will be all in all. No more death=no more time=no more ages=totally time transcendant eternal existence for all creation
I don't understand.
There are a 1000 years between the 2 resurrections. Jesus rules that period. Satan is locked up.
Let's assume satan is released for 1 year.
If Jesus still rules during that period as you suggested the millenium lasts 1000+1=1001 years.
There's another major problem (for me)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 03, 2012, 11:12:37 PM
Satan is locked up in chains along with the other assorted micreants of the ages(see Jude verse 6) until the end of the age. They are all released for a brief time. They stir up a final rebellion but fail(Jesus still rules the whole time, the coup fails)
Coup doesn't completely fail. Sure they were not able to capture the kingdom. But it clearly shows many have not kneeled before Jesus. If they did they obviously wouldn't be in satan's army.
So Jesus crushes the rebelion. What happens to the soldiers of that army? When/how are there corrected?
what I am saying is that there is a transition period at the end of each age. Like the period from John the Baptist into the ministry of Jesus Christ and the institution of the new covenant. when did the last age end and this one begn? At the crucifixion? At the resurrection? On the day of Pentecost? Just because satan is released doesnt mean that Jesus stops ruling and reigning. satan doesnt win the war. The king puts down the rebellion, see?
The 1,000 years as I see it is an age of reigning grace grace. Then perhaps a more intense period of fire. iMO these things are purposely obscure, so I am not trying to set forth eschatological time tables or anything. i dont want to get hung up in days or hours. Seasons may be as close as we can get :o)
Also, i think there is a period of correction, aionian kolassis that begins at the end of the 1000 years. the rebels will stand before the saints and angels of god and Jesus Christ and they will be exposed by intense light/fire/love penetrating their veils until the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses.
"till you have paid the last penny" so to speak, an olam time, indeterminate, "fit to the purpose' for each one different in lenght, many stripes and few. I think this is one of the "ages to come", beginning at the end of the millenial reign perhaps, and definitley lasting until death, the last enemy, is no more- having been "swallowed up" by immortality. For me, something like that is the only way the sequences in the scriptures make sense.
Sorry it's still very problematic for me. (Note I wrote earlier another verse clearly notes Jesus rules without interuption so your view must be overal right)
Let's try to tackle one problem first
Jesus rules a 1000 years. At that point He should be nearly done.
But still the world is filled with military hardware and lots of soldiers.
All those soldiers died fighting against Jesus. They die.
Obviously they didn't die are saints. Likely they are goats.
So will there be a 3rd resurrection? A second LoF?
There is nothing that says they die after the second resurrection. 'the rest of the dead' are raised after Gog and Magog surround the city of God and are subsequently destroyed. All of the subduing that will be done in the age that follows the millenial reign will be "in the spirit" at the Great White Throne where the lake of fire is(IMO) burning in the presence of God and His holy angels(not earthly flames, but rather the penetrating light of the presence of God that consumes the adversary-darkness/death).
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Psa 2:1-12)
Also, we must remember(if we have the historical view) we are trying to build a picture with intimate detail of a period of time way in the future from one or two verses of scripture. I don't really think the details are available.
With that in mind i usually assume that anyone who makes bold confident assertions about such things is over confident and probably way off the mark(and that includes me :o)
I also believe that that time will be a transitional period where the veil has been removed for almost 1000 years and very much different than our present reality. Things which angels have longed to see into ;o) Peace.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 04, 2012, 08:04:06 AM
There is nothing that says they die after the second resurrection. 'the rest of the dead' are raised after Gog and Magog surround the city of God and are subsequently destroyed.
Do you have verse for me EW?
QuoteAll of the subduing that will be done in the age that follows the millenial reign
No subduing at all during the 1000 years. Not even to people that are living and even are born in that age?
So Jesus rules a 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrection. I think we agree on that point. Right.
I think we also agree that Jesus will rule from the 1st resurrection until (but not including) the God all-in-all phase.
1---------------2------3----4
1= 1st resurrection
2= 2nd resurrection
3= Satan's final rebellion crushed
4= all-in-all starts
1-2 = 1000 year reign of Jesus + the overcomers
2-3 = satan's rebelion for a 'short while'
3-4 = satan's army corrected?
1-4 = longer than 1000 years; so "He must reign until everything is under His feet" includes the 1000 years but spans a period longer than 1000 years......?
3-4 = I can't find any verse supporting that view. From a ET pov it's clear. Straight to hell with those soldiers. But a UR view requires a time of correction
QuoteAlso, we must remember(if we have the historical view) we are trying to build a picture with intimate detail of a period of time way in the future from one or two verses of scripture. I don't really think the details are available.
True. But perhaps more verses can indirectly connect to give more info
QuoteWith that in mind i usually assume that anyone who makes bold confident assertions about such things is over confident and probably way off the mark(and that includes me :o)
Many have clear views on this topic. But when trying to make a diagram out of them can be very challanging. I think constructing a good diagram can give some great insight in Revelation.
QuoteI also believe that that time will be a transitional period where the veil has been removed for almost 1000 years and very much different than our present reality. Things which angels have longed to see into ;o) Peace.
Actually not peace but war :-)
Jesus had a 1000 years of showing all sorts of good things. People don't just disagree but they disagree so much they start a huge war with massive armies. So it seems, to me, Jesus isn't very convincing
Related link posted by Doug: http://www.georgewarnock.com/feast-main.html
Struggles? As Linus, from the Peanuts cartoon strip authored by UR Charles Schulz said, "The growing soul is watered best by tears of adversity."
Ever work out with weights? The resistance isn't pleasant but we grow stronger and are able to handle more and more resistance. Overcoming is a great feeling. Growing and being more than you were and praising God for His wisdom in bringing into your life just the resistance (adversity) you are capable of handling. God is your perfect personal life trainer, bringing into your life what is needed for growth.
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 04, 2012, 03:45:06 PM
Struggles? As Linus, from the Peanuts cartoon strip authored by UR Charles Schulz said, "The growing soul is watered best by tears of adversity."
Ever work out with weights? The resistance isn't pleasant but we grow stronger and are able to handle more and more resistance. Overcoming is a great feeling. Growing and being more than you were and praising God for His wisdom in bringing into your life just the resistance (adversity) you are capable of handling. God is your perfect personal life trainer, bringing into your life what is needed for growth.
AMEN!
Thanks ded. I guess the final word is He is God, not me. Stop fighting. As Paul found out, kicking against the goad gets us nowhere. I'm waving the white flag.
Okay Deena,
I wanted to give something other than the usual, 1.)"All things work together for those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose"
or, 2.)"if you pray, why worry? If you worry, why pray?
and 3.)"Be content in all things."
'course, 1 and 3 are scripture and #2 is someone's idea of cute.
Stress and adversity are never easy. If they were, it wouldn't be stress or adversity.
"Is This God's Plan?"
This is where I most differ with (all?) other UR belief. To me the 2nd resurrection ends "after the long day/age of judgment, aka, the thorough examining of all things and all human history" with masses in the (cleansing, age during) lake of fire only if by then they are not believing aka are "not in the book of life" {wow that reads a little clumsy doesn't it? please, bear with me :help:
-- To me, God's plan cannot include such a large element implying failure on God's part.. it's just not logical, so deep prayer is/was called for.. and this is part of what came back to me.. the notorious words "those not believing will go to the lake of fire" are not said or heard until aFter what is surely a very, very long day of the examination and review of all things, events, etc.. and by then (after aLL have experienced being resurrected, and, have lived through, witnessed and experienced an age of total review of all mankind's doings, and the "judging of all lives according to what's written in the books" who's not going to "believe"?
-- This fit perfectly into other answers to deep and contemplative prayers concerning:
..such as God (who is surely Perfect or He too would fade away, 1st law of science) - why did He only create man and woman and the universe, not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had fully matured into outright revolt, trickery and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did!! :) He did it exactly that way so that aLL of us would take this unavoidable (and all important) journey and lesson together... once for all 'time'
~ You see, God, surely, is not only Perfection, but also Life, the life force itself, what else could or would be?? But, God endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) which includes, sooner or later, the ability to choose.. Yet once one chooses any-thing other than what, or how, God chooses it, they become imPerfect, the opposite of Life..
...since God Himself opened this Pandora's box by endowing rationality, He built the rescue (from nonlife and imperfection it's cause) right from the very 'beginning' - "from the foundation of the world"
...you see, i've been a believer for 33 years, very earnest, as most of us are :) with lots of roots in the prayerful study and contemplation of the bible and His plan.. being somewhat of a hermit (i call my blog 'inner-monastery' because listening to His voice in the quietness of His Presence is so vitally, vitally important:)
- I thought of myself as pretty well informed and what not, until about 15 years ago, when my son was 16, and he asked me two questions: "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" - so cynical for one so young! I answered him but wasn't satisfied with my answers, not at all! So, I prayed in special earnest, something I had done years previous when I prayed over a list of questions I had concerning bible prophecy.. I guess God gave me a strong wanting to know the truth of something, all the truth and nothing but, the truth. And I am not happy until I feel that 'click' in my spirit that says "yes!" and it resoundingly rings true.
...this time the answers came back immediately - boom, boom, boom.. and i'll tell ya, they knocked my socks right off!! and 15 years later they are still knocked off.. the plan of God became so clear, so appointed, so Perfect, so all encompassing and logical (ahhh... logic.. i realized might as well use that great yet destructive force.. rationality:)) :laughing7:
...Part and parcel of those answers was the one in response to the most heard question of (scoffing) mankind "if there be God, how could He let all this evil (wars, etc) happen??" Well, ..He could have made us to be robots.
.....(Surely) God knew all possibilities and potentials (of creation/matter - gnostics denied the beauty of matter and creation :dontknow: not good! big lie).. He knew every possibility and knew every result, 'end' / outcome of each one; knows the end of any possibility from the beginning (of it). Since then He has done each and every thing perfectly, in order to bring about the best and most perfect of all outcomes.. {surely?}
...because He endowed thinking ability, thus choice, there is death, and now all suffer, some even horribly.. but He, being Life, experiences, suffers and lives through aLL sufferings which ever occur and ever will occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! because He's not creating robots or an ant farm, but a family and an eternal un-breakable paradise and perfection.. Un-breakable, because the knowing of good from evil / life from death, will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche. All will fully know that one simply cannot wander from God/Life.. can't be done.. period, for to do so means to wander into nonlife. Satan said to Eve "surely... you won't.. die?" [That lie is perhaps the most imbedded in the human psyche.]
...At the end of receiving answers (boom, boom, boom) came a question!! to my mind, so tiny, finite and limited as it is, during this time of prayer. The question was "why did God wait and only create man and woman and the universe after the first bound-to-occur thought not only occurred, but had ripened into rebellion and trickery?? and the answer came right after it - so all would wander from God/Perfection/Life at once, rather than one now.. another later.. another later.. and so on and so forth until all did so, which would take virtually 'for ever'..
...In order for choice, 'free-will' (an offshoot of thinking ability) to run its course (PROVING all things) He cannot be constantly interfering! Tho of course He has interfered 2 or 3 times, to build in the rescue "from the beginning" and to stop mankind destroying their self way too soon, before anything had been proven, and before all those who could be born/exist, could be born..
{{{{{ -- therefor, I have come to view the plan of God like this:
[#1] in the beginning God.. [#2] then straight out from Him, the Son, the onLy begotten/straight out from Him, so close, indeed, sharing in substance and essence.. "This is the decree.. you are my Son!" all things decreed, in Jesus. -- all other things created in, through and with the Son, by the Father and the Son, [#3] the first created being the vast host of angels.. then a long wait (ah the infinite patience of our Father to bring about the BEST!!) i say long because when there was 'only' the father, the son and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to go astray about -- then [#4] the rebellion mature; the 6 days (a 1st evening and a day, 2nd evening and day, etc) of creation described in Genesis 1, with Genesis 2 being an insert to Genesis 1; and the deceit and trickery of Lucifer, now called Satan (Opposer). The 1/3 of the angels joining, but 2/3's remaining faithful; and the tricking and "fall" in Eden upon Earth - whereupon immediately God told of and promised the rescue (Gen 3:15) which was oft repeated and handed down in all lands and languages as legends of mother and son 'gods'; after the confusing of the languages for the purpose of dividing mankind lest they "do too much" together bringing destruction (but alas, the world is becoming 'one' again! "and nothing will be beyond them") -- [#5] Abraham (Israel).. Joseph.. Moses.. etc, etc.. swaddling cloths and a place prepared for the coming of the savior and rescue [#6] the birth, life, execution/death (in our place and stead) three evening and day burial, resurrection, forty days more teaching of disciples/students, soon to be apostles/teachers, and His ascension -- [#7] the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and the going forth of the gospel to all lands (persecutions as challenges to the gospel resulted in its further scattering and spreading; even to-rev 12:6 & 14 "fly"=sail, but beginning w Saul who then conversion to Paul) [#8] the gospel preached to, opened up to and accepted by gentiles!!!! [#9] the churches and church age, gospel going to all ends of the earth, all 7 hills/continents.. "the dragon, in his serpent guise/seducer, spewing a flood (proliferation) after the church, churches which began because grafted into Israel "no longer jew nor greek, etc" if believing.. [#10] the earth opens its mouth and swallows the flood (rev 12:16) making drought, see luke 23:28-31!!(and joel) i,e the beginning or heading toward apocalypse as collapse.. man's works built on untruth must, and can only collapse, a very important part of the plan and narrative of God which proves all things, reveals all good from evil, life from death [#11] the dragon, after the earth helps the churches by swallowing the flood/proliferation which seduced all nations & 7 hills, turns his attention (more fully) toward the other children who "have the commandments of God and" by now "hold (to) the testimony of Jesus".. "gathering the nations to hArmageddon when the armies of earth surround Israel.. but! Jesus had said to Jerusalem/Israel "you shall not see me again, until you say 'blessed is He (Jesus) who comes in the name of the LORD'..." SEE how rev 16:15 is tucked so tightly in between verses 14 and 16:
"14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."
hence, Jesus' return which is the 1st resurrection & marriage(?) of the lamb; and the beginning of His long 2nd advent -- [#12] the 1000 yrs known as the millennial kingdom, at the end of which [#13] satan&co is released and again gathers many to war (O bother!) but then he is thrown into the lake of fire, where already is the beast (world beast of rev 13:1-10 as opposed to 11-18; the 1st is a body/world beast; the second is an office(!pinpointed by verse 13:13, which occurred in 1945, read it and see if you don't think so). Already also, in the lake of fire, is the false prophet / false teaching.. began as a man.. and led all the world astray "went before" prepared the way.. Neither of these two, are men!!! thus far, no humans in the lof.
...[#14] ..."the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.." rev 20:12,13 - a day called "judgment day" which simply must be a very long day! "..and they were judged, each one according to his works".. I cannot help but think this is a long period of intense review and examination of all of human history as to all that went wrong, in its entirety and also each thing which happened, or was, or occurred, as to what went wrong, everything fully delved into/judged.. Otherwise? does God do something without it having a purpose? Surely even those of the first resurrection (and even angels) will learn by this close examining and review of all things.. God's Great Plan nailed into every rational creature's psyche.. after that "eye has not seen nor can mind of man even imagine the greatness and wondrousness of what can be.. and happen.." this last paraphrased big time?
[#15] "Then Death and Hades" (death and the grave) "were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone" not believing ? "not found, written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." And, "a new heaven and a new earth ....the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.. And a voice ..saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to (John) "Write, for these words are true and faithful." ...And He said, "It is done!"
--------- sorry to write so much, going to see if I can put it in a graph chart..
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2012, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 04, 2012, 08:04:06 AM
There is nothing that says they die after the second resurrection. 'the rest of the dead' are raised after Gog and Magog surround the city of God and are subsequently destroyed.
Do you have verse for me EW?
QuoteAll of the subduing that will be done in the age that follows the millenial reign
No subduing at all during the 1000 years. Not even to people that are living and even are born in that age?
So Jesus rules a 1000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrection. I think we agree on that point. Right.
I think we also agree that Jesus will rule from the 1st resurrection until (but not including) the God all-in-all phase.
1---------------2------3----4
1= 1st resurrection
2= 2nd resurrection
3= Satan's final rebellion crushed
4= all-in-all starts
1-2 = 1000 year reign of Jesus + the overcomers
2-3 = satan's rebelion for a 'short while'
3-4 = satan's army corrected?
1-4 = longer than 1000 years; so "He must reign until everything is under His feet" includes the 1000 years but spans a period longer than 1000 years......?
3-4 = I can't find any verse supporting that view. From a ET pov it's clear. Straight to hell with those soldiers. But a UR view requires a time of correction
QuoteAlso, we must remember(if we have the historical view) we are trying to build a picture with intimate detail of a period of time way in the future from one or two verses of scripture. I don't really think the details are available.
True. But perhaps more verses can indirectly connect to give more info
QuoteWith that in mind i usually assume that anyone who makes bold confident assertions about such things is over confident and probably way off the mark(and that includes me :o)
Many have clear views on this topic. But when trying to make a diagram out of them can be very challanging. I think constructing a good diagram can give some great insight in Revelation.
QuoteI also believe that that time will be a transitional period where the veil has been removed for almost 1000 years and very much different than our present reality. Things which angels have longed to see into ;o) Peace.
Actually not peace but war :-)
Jesus had a 1000 years of showing all sorts of good things. People don't just disagree but they disagree so much they start a huge war with massive armies. So it seems, to me, Jesus isn't very convincing
While issuing the disclaimer that by no means am i laboring to set forth a systematic eschatology.... I will say how I see it, without writing a book ;o)
For sure Subduing has already begun and will continue progressively untill God is ALL IN ALL!
What I said was.....
"All of the subduing that will be done
in the age that follows the millenial reign will be "in the spirit" at the Great White Throne where the lake of fire is(IMO)
in other words, I believe that the Great White Throne is in the presence of God as is the Lake of Fire. I believe those who hav not bowed the knee and embraced the love of God will stand before the "Flaming Eyes" of Jesus(and the overcomers) until every hidden thing is brought to light and all darkness consumed- this is post second resurrection; pre all in all.....only for the accumulated rebels of the ages(romans 1:19-rom2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13; Rev 1:12-17 & 2:Pet 3:7-12)
Each age is a stage in the "administration of the completion of time(eph 1:9-11), the gathering into one of all things in Christ". IMO this age is for harvesting "sons" to be priests in the ages to come, administering the "reconciliation of all things" under the headship of Christ.
Yes i do hav a scripture for my opinion on the order of the resurrections and Gog Magog........
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
1)This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5-6)
And when the thousand years are expired,
2) Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
3)And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw
3A) a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
4)And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
5)And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:7-15)
1)1 resurrection
2)1000 years
3)Gog Magog rebellion raised and crushed
4)2nd resurrection -Great White Throne/lake of fire/aionian kolassis/evry enemy subdued/every knee bows/last penny paid/death swallowed up/
5) All in All -the Restoration of all things complete-Total transcendence for all living things in the fulness of God
Quote from: Cardinal on June 03, 2012, 07:45:35 PM
As hard as it is to understand sometimes, Job's experiences are the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double at the end.
......
My two cents...
You will recieve double shortly.
Even more than 4 cents :laughing7:
Quote
1)1 resurrection
2)1000 years
3)Gog Magog rebellion raised and crushed
4)2nd resurrection -Great White Throne/lake of fire/aionian kolassis/evry enemy subdued/every knee bows/last penny paid/death swallowed up/
5) All in All -the Restoration of all things complete-Total transcendence for all living things in the fulness of God
hi!
I'm wondering if perhaps you have considered or thought that what is called "Judgment Day" immediately following the 2nd resurrection, will be a day of the examining of all human history, as to just what exactly went wrong, in each given instance and circumstance? I believe this to be true and that it would necessarily be a very long day, with all participating and learning, even the watching angels, nailing home God's truth of life, also called knowing good from evil, which is in its main essence, life from death.. perfection/purity from imperfection.. the truth then, by this means and review, seems to me will be very deeply etched upon every heart and mind and psyche.. the truth that one cannot wander away from God who is Life and also Perfection (surely??) for to do so is to wander away from life.. or that is, to be the opposite of life, which opposite (fading, non-life) is the result of imperfection..
- My second point and thought being the notorious words "those not written in the book of life, will go to the lof" is not spoken until at the end of that long day/age.. What is the requirement for having one's name written in the book of life? to believe and choose to bend the knee.. The question I cannot shake loose from my head is, who? isn't going to believe after [#1] having experienced being resurrected from the sleep of death, and [#2] having witnessed and lived through a very long day (short age?) of the review of all things?
- Hence, to me, I agree that all things will be subdued at the throne of God.. that all things will be under the feet of Jesus, then Rev chapters 21 and 22 will come to pass when the kingdom is given over to the Father and the very throne of God comes to Earth (made new and perfect) in a perfect universe, the last enemy vanquished being death.. all death, nobody dead :)
- For masses of humanity to be in the lof to me, smacks of implying some amount of failure on God's part, but if He were not Perfect, surely He too would fade..? To me that seems to not be logical, that His Plan has to be Perfect in every way, and guaranteed (which I'm sure is less hard for everyone to agree with) that the 'end' result will be perfect and the very best one possible..
- P.S - there's really only one verse I know of that can be used to say one MUST believe before death, this is when Jesus told the pharisees they would "die in their sins" but I believe this simply means the 1st resurrection (for a time(!) surpasses in joy the 2nd one..
Hi Marie,
It is so difficult to speak briefly on some of these things, and I have written extensively in other places :o) But anyway, I believe the LOF is an immersion in the Light/Love/Fire of God that drives all the darkness up from the depths of an unrepentant being...... "the earth was without form and void..... LET THERE BE LIGHT!" "In That DAY I will slay Levithan the twisting fleeing serpent.....In That DAY sing of it, A VINEYARD!"(Isaiah27)
This is a Day that has dawned already in us, and will break upon evry soul as they awaken from the sleep of death. We who ARE ALREADY AWAKE are CHILDREN OF THE DAY and will not be CAUGHT AS A THIEF by death. Those who are asleep are dead already and will see their predicament until they AWAKEN(death is the portal to the GWT(Great White Throne) and LOF which are for the separation of the righteous and the wicked by the SECRETS OF THEIR HEARTS and the testimony of THEIR OWN CONSCIENCES(Romans chapter 2).
To me the fire is LIGHT which consumes DARKNESS..... LOVE that consumes HATE......FORGIVENESS that consumes BITTERNESS....etc :o) This Light/Love/Fire shines from the flaming eyes of Jesus and His face shining like the sun at full noon with the FULNESS OF GOD. In Eph 3:19 Paul reveals that this is our destiny as well, to filled up to all the fulness of God.
At the Great White Throne there will be many who we might assume would be approved who will find themselves in the presence of the Lord Jesus and His saints and angels WRITHING as if about to give birth because the SECRETS they have withheld from the light are bursting up from the depths, to be pierced by the word like a boil being lanced and the infection cleaned out :o)For some it will be as few stripes, for some as many. For all it will be the triumph of GRACE over SIN, LOVE over HATE, etc.
Therefore it is written...."Confess your faults one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed"....and...."If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."
As CHILDREN OF THE DAY we are already salted with fire and stand before the throne....as Paul said to Timothy, "I CHARGE YOU IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND HIS HOLY ANGELS" and as he also said, " I HAV DETERMINED IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND HIS HOLY ANGELS TO DELIVER SUCH A ONE OVER TO DEATH THAT HIS SOUL MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD(or something to that affect, I am writng by memory). As one can see by these verses the GWT is already operating. As Jesus said, "EVERYONE WILL BE SALTED WITH FIRE AND EVERY SACRIFICE WILL BE SEASONED WITH SALT.
For me, in some of these verses, the preterist view and the historic view find unity through the veil where we see the umbilical cord that connects the fetal mankind in the flesh on earth to the spiritual mankind being born in the heavenlies.
I see the throne of God and the feet of Jesus as you do pretty much I think. I believe the GWT and the LOF are spiritual experiences and I am not even sure how/if time factors in with intensity of kolassis to the stubbornest of adversaries.
So as far as masses of humanity in the lake of fire, I want to emphasize that I believe the lake of fire is for the deliverance of the adversaries through purging of the heart, spirit, soul by the LOVE OF GOD which is a CONSUMING FIRE. Not some arbitrary "payback prison sentence" (you did this so you have to pay that). More like.... "Here you must stand and be searched until your knee is bowed and your tongue confesses with rejoicing because the veil has been removed and you have seen the light."
"UPON THIS MOUNTAIN I WILL REMOVE THE VEIL THAT COVERS THE PEOPLES"
UPON THOSE WHO SAT IN THE VALLEY OF DARKNESS A LIGHT HAS SHONE"
"...GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD NEWS TO ALL PEOPLE"
You have come to MT ZION, the heavenly Jerusalem, myriads of angels, the spirits of men made perfect, the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven... WOOOHOO!
Know you not that we shall judge angels?!!
This is where we ARE. Seated at the right hand in Christ.
This is where we will find ourselves IN THAT DAY, already judged- righteous by His blood, if we continue in the faith.
I am just writing off the cuff here, so, since I kno from some of the things of yours I have read you are a serious student of the word...... I kno you surely realize that in hours and hours of face to face conversation we could barely expose the tip of the iceberg regarding such things as these :o)
So- PEACE.....2 cents and taken with a grain of salt and all that, Cheerio ;o)
Our father's God, to Thee,
Author of liberty,
To Thee we sing.
Long may our land be bright
With freedom's holy light;
Protect us by Thy might,
Great God, our King!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKZg_ZB4SkU
I love thy rocks and rills
Thy woods and templed hills.... :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 06, 2012, 08:50:09 AM
Hi Marie,
It is so difficult to speak briefly on some of these things, and I have written extensively in other places :o) But anyway, I believe the LOF is an immersion in the Light/Love/Fire of God that drives all the darkness up from the depths of an unrepentant being...... "the earth was without form and void..... LET THERE BE LIGHT!" "In That DAY I will slay Levithan the twisting fleeing serpent.....In That DAY sing of it, A VINEYARD!"(Isaiah27)
This is a Day that has dawned already in us, and will break upon evry soul as they awaken from the sleep of death. We who ARE ALREADY AWAKE are CHILDREN OF THE DAY and will not be CAUGHT AS A THIEF by death. "
Hi Eaglesway,
- I very seriously think you are onto something here! I can see it quite clearly "our God is a consuming fire" -- it goes along with how I think of certain things, not as God's punishment or judgment but as natural results, outcomes and consequences.. I haven't read all of your post yet - I care for two preschoolers at this time, and time gets limited :laugh2: - but I will..
this is my 'theory' :hiya:
THE PLAN OF GOD AS UNFOLDING IN THESE STEPS:
[ 1 ] the Father/aeons passed (who is Love, Perfection, LiFe) sees all possibilities end from beginning, chooses & all done in mind
[ 2 ] the Son/aeons passed, Firstborn of all creation
[ 3 ] the Reconciliation is "built from the foundation of world" (thinking ability is to be endowed thus ability to choose/a real pandora's box)
[ 4 ] long wait... 1st bound to occur rebel thought occurs
[ 5 ] more wait -> rebel thought ripe - the creation of universe, man & woman (all will take unavoidable journey & lesson together at once)
[ 6 ] adam&eve, the fall & the promise/prophecy of the reconciliation/messiah (gen 3:15)
[ 7 ] noah - prominent brow people gone
[ 8 ] mankind divided at Tower 'Babble' - because too soon man works together "no end to what they can do" - fuzzy memories of eve "mother of us all" and of the flood carried into all lands & languages
[ 9 ] abraham, moses (Israel) - "the prophets" prophecy Messiah" as suffering servant & healer, "light of the gentiles/nations" and.. as arriving crowned victor
[ 10 ] immaculate birth of Jesus, his life, execution in our stead(the trade), resurrection & ascension to right hand of the Father (rev 12:5) = spring holy days were fulfilled; (and note: seals/elements of age A.D. begin march & progression/gallop-rev chapter 6 = from Open to Maturity-a lock sealing the revelation vision for many days)
[ 11 ] Father's gift of Holy Ghost Baptism poured out (pentecost), gospel explodes, spreads & multiplies
[ 12 ] gentiles begin to be told & given gospel -- Holy Ghost Baptism poured out upon gentiles - gentile believers grafted "into" Israel
[ 13 ] "the churches" / church age:
>>>>>>>>>>>and/meanwhile/later 'Babble' rebuilt as seduction used to sell to all seven hills/continents (see rev 12:15)
>>>>>>>>>>>& 6th seal 1945 is rev 13:13 done by an office not man
>>>>>>>>>>>babble/seduction ripe, has cup of side effects
>>>>>>>>>>>{seal seven w/ its trumps} and "10 toes"/divisions devour 'her' (these are socialism & capitalism, the crash, "she is fallen, fallen!" note rev.17:17(15-18)
>>>>>>>>>>>the gathering to armegeddon (rev 16:14-15-16) 15=
[ 14 ] return of Messiah (the Son) w/ mighty sound of "trumpet" (last trump)/the 1st resurrection (zech 14:4 & acts 1:9-11)
[ 15 ] millennial reign of Messiah (1000 yrs) - then satan loosed ->lof
[ 16 ] 2nd resurrection (from sleep of death of all those not reconciled/knowing)
[ 17 ] Great Day (age) of the examining of all things, the review & Judgment of all human history (500 yrs)
[ 18 ] those (still) not believing "will go to the lof/the 2nd death where is also the world beast/gov (rev 13:1-10, not 11-18) and the false prophet/teaching" (huGe, world changing) - neither of which is a person
[ 19 ] the "new heavens & new earth" ..."all things new" - New Jerusalem & throne of God comes to Earth "God will Tabernacle with man" (live w/ mankind; "tabernacles" will "be observed year to year") autumn holy days fulfilled, and He who sits on the Throne says "it is done"