Tentmaker Forum

Hello all,

My first post.

Maybe it's not possible to be fully, absolutely 100% certain/convinced that UR is true, I don't know.  That's where I'm hoping to get your takes.

I'm 75% there, maybe less at 70%.
The problem is, the remaining 25-30% doubt is enough conflict to leave my
soul in an anguishing cognitive dissonant state of limbo, particularly
my TRUST/'love" of God/Christ (or lack of).

Maybe your answer will be - THAT's where "faith" must be applied. The faith
to leap over that last 10, 15, 20, 30% of doubt.

I'm too far into UR at 70% to go back to the hideous ET doctrine.
That literally drove my soul to a point of becoming an Ex-Christian at one point.

However, the remaining 25-30% doubt I have stems from Scripture itself.
Though for example the Apostle Paul never uses the word HELL so-to-speak,
he explicitly spells out EXCLUSIVITY (i.e Romans 9, Galatians 5:19 for starters)


Is it possible to reach a point of being convinced enough (if not 100% convinced)
to achieve a legitimate practical peace / resolve / confidence that UR will be God's final means of salvation???

Thank you all for your patience in welcoming me aboard!

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PM
Hello all,

My first post.

Maybe it's not possible to be fully, absolutely 100% certain/convinced that UR is true, I don't know.  That's where I'm hoping to get your takes.

I'm 75% there, maybe less at 70%.
The problem is, the remaining 25-30% doubt is enough conflict to leave my
soul in an anguishing cognitive dissonant state of limbo, particularly
my TRUST/'love" of God/Christ (or lack of).

Maybe your answer will be - THAT's where "faith" must be applied. The faith
to leap over that last 10, 15, 20, 30% of doubt.

I'm too far into UR at 70% to go back to the hideous ET doctrine.
That literally drove my soul to a point of becoming an Ex-Christian at one point.

However, the remaining 25-30% doubt I have stems from Scripture itself.
Though for example the Apostle Paul never uses the word HELL so-to-speak,
he explicitly spells out EXCLUSIVITY (i.e Romans 9, Galatians 5:19 for starters)


Is it possible to reach a point of being convinced enough (if not 100% convinced)
to achieve a legitimate practical peace / resolve / confidence that UR will be God's final means of salvation???

Thank you all for your patience in welcoming me aboard!

Yes it is.

However the difficulty for you personally in terms of "UR" could be trying to believe something within UR that may not be true, or a need to see something a different way.   There are some trains of thought within UR that I do not agree with, however,  seeing it another way posed no conflict with what we should believe the goal of Love to be.


For instance,  do you personally see Gods Love and  Wrath as separate things?


Im not assuming what you may believe, only getting a start on a discussion to see what that 30% of difficulty consists of.

Thank you very much for your response Paul!

"For instance,  do you personally see Gods Love and  Wrath as separate things?"

Could you elaborate on "God's love and God's wrath possibly being perceived
as separate things"?

Thank you!

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 11:27:43 PM
Thank you very much for your response Paul!

"For instance,  do you personally see Gods Love and  Wrath as separate things?"

Could you elaborate on "God's love and God's wrath possibly being perceived
as separate things"?

Thank you!

Yes,  I think one possiblity for that idea is that if you hate God,  he may love you but you have brought his wrath upon you and you are being punished as you deserve.

Thank you Paul,

Your first swing is a home run.

I have been intensely angry with God for a long time.  Yeah I hate to admit
it but I have HATED GOD (even as a so-called Christian) - no pulling punches - no excuses - I'm guilty.
Many things have occurred over the years  re-enforcing my perception that God seems to hate me.    I accept that I'm being punished/chastised deservingly so.
So Paul, I think I see what you're saying.

Without going into details, I am going through a devestating major life
changing event.  I find myself reflecting on my past failures (but not
necessarily in a self-condemning way).  I am finally beginning to see (50 years
old now)   how my anger, high perfectionist expectations, insecurity and self-absorbsion has perhaps sabotaged blessings God was lovingly trying to present into my life.  I am seeing how difficult I've been to live with for those I "love" who have loved me.  I am beginning to see how I have utterly failed at "love" and deeply have hurt those that have loved me.  Even hurt people in general (like co-workers, strangers in general).  Not that I meant to hurt people, but I am severely flawed nonetheless.

The root issue at this time - my deeply ingrained perception that God
hates me.  That's where I have to begin. Emotionally I don't believe God loves me.  I know that's a ridiculous accusation of Him, but ... that's where
I have sadly ended up.   Maybe this time, I am GENUINELY being broken.

Keep on giving your takes. They are very welcomed!

Quote from: gky on January 09, 2010, 01:08:18 AM
Thank you Paul,

Your first swing is a home run.

I have been intensely angry with God for a long time.  Yeah I hate to admit
it but I have HATED GOD (even as a so-called Christian) - no pulling punches - no excuses - I'm guilty.
Many things have occurred over the years  re-enforcing my perception that God seems to hate me.    I accept that I'm being punished/chastised deservingly so.
So Paul, I think I see what you're saying.

Without going into details, I am going through a devestating major life
changing event.  I find myself reflecting on my past failures (but not
necessarily in a self-condemning way).  I am finally beginning to see (50 years
old now)   how my anger, high perfectionist expectations, insecurity and self-absorbsion has perhaps sabotaged blessings God was lovingly trying to present into my life.  I am seeing how difficult I've been to live with for those I "love" who have loved me.  I am beginning to see how I have utterly failed at "love" and deeply have hurt those that have loved me.  Even hurt people in general (like co-workers, strangers in general).  Not that I meant to hurt people, but I am severely flawed nonetheless.

The root issue at this time - my deeply ingrained perception that God
hates me.  That's where I have to begin. Emotionally I don't believe God loves me.  I know that's a ridiculous accusation of Him, but ... that's where
I have sadly ended up.   Maybe this time, I am GENUINELY being broken.

Keep on giving your takes. They are very welcomed!

First I want to say I have been where you are.  I say this with no joke that I could cut and paste what you wrote and I would not actually be lying if I posted it somewhere else as an explanation to a period of time in my life.

So, here is what I have come to believe about Gods Love and Wrath.

Gods inherent nature is Love,  and God does not change, so there actually cannot be a separation between Gods Love and his Wrath. 

God hates Evil,  would it be fair to say that Gods wrath may be sent upon evil?   Well can you perhaps see how Gods Wrath commissioned Jesus to be Saviour of the World?

So perhaps then, if God says he Hated Esau, and that cannot be separated from Gods love, that could then carry a message that might be considered  "Good News"?

Hello Paul,

I needed to digest your last post and read it 3 times or so. Thank you again!

I appreciate your honesty in sharing you've been where I am at - that in and of
itself is 80% of the encouragement.

And just thinking out loud, God seemed to vindicate Esau even during his earthly life (Genesis 33) - recalling Jacob facing Esau later on and having to reunite with is very slightly older brother with his tail in between his legs.  Esau extended himself to Jacob with almost a Father/Prodigal son embrace - strange but fascinating. All of this despite the New Testament having the blatantly explicit phrase of God HATING Esau, in actual practice God's LAST WORD or GESTURE
appears to be love, restoration, reconcilliation.  This is one of the subtlties that
leads me to believe that UR is true - God does have the last say, and if love
is what dictates his intention, his last say would have to be loving - wouldn't it?

I guess I battle with God seemingly endorsing prominent/famous pastors,
music ministers, evangelists etc (HUGE PROPONENTS of ET), with miracles,
answered prayers, and repeated blessings.   While many of these seem smug
in declaring a partial salvation gospel, God's apparent endorsement of their ministries and their personal lives appears to VALIDATE THEIR WITNESS, included among other things, providing "VALIDATION"/"PROOF" that ET is true.
That's something that really makes me angry toward God, that apparent
favortism while the stakes of alleged favor/condemnation are eternal.

But as you are trying to present, if WRATH is not necessarily separate but
perhaps the opposite side of the same coin, LOVE, then the context of that
WRATH has to be only for good.  Again, I'm thinking this out loud literally as I type.   There does need to be justice and retribution (i.e. Jews in the holocaust
must be acknowledged for the atrocity that occurred to them). From the outside
looking in, God's love would be meaningless if He didn't make these kinds of things "right".

Perhaps the word "WRATH" has to be broken down from the original writings
(just like the word "fire" being a purifier / cleanser instead of a torture tool).

Much of what I'm saying I know intellectually.  It's absorbing and believing this into my stubborn heart and soul - that's what I'm needing to work out now.

Thanks again Paul!!!

In reading Romans 9, we need to recognize Paul's purpose: his concern for his brethren, Israel. We also need to recognize that the whole dialogue in Romans 9 extends all the way through Romans 11, whereby we see this encouraging word:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" - Romans 11:26  [emphasis mine]

But back in the early part of Romans 9, Paul discusses how Israel is imparted with the oracles of God. And he briefly goes through the process of how Israel became a nation, starting with Abraham, through Isaac, and on to Jacob (and Esau).

In verse 11 we read, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" . And some will point to this as proof of the doctrine of the Calvinist teaching of predestination. However, let us remember that the subject is about the nation of Israel, for which Jacob represents. And it is God's purpose to form the nation of Israel from this individual (Jacob) as his twelve sons become twelve tribes. Esau, on the other hand, is the father of the nation of Edom. So when verse 11 speaks of Jacob and Esau, it is referring to those particular nations, for which God has a purpose, and has nothing to do with the individual's salvation.

So then when we get to verse 13, 'As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated' we are still talking about the respect nations of Israel and Edom, for each nation was used of God's purposes. This is most evident when we consider that this verse is actually a quote out of Malachi 1:2-3, with Edom mentioned in verse 4. You have to research what role Edom played in Israel's history to fully appreciate this.

By the same token, the same phenomenon is present when we get to Pharoah. You'll notice that there is no mention of Egypt, but since Pharoah represents Egypt's figurehead, we are dealing with that nation in particular. It wasn't only Pharoah's son that died at Passover, but all the Egyptian's first born sons.

So these nations played a significant role, whether used a vessels of honor (Israel) or vessels of dishonor (Edom and Egypt), in order to show God's purpose and glory.

willieH: Hi Gky... :hithere: and :Welcome: to Tentmaker!

Before I begin my answer to you, might I say that UR is the only PERFECTLY LOGICAL and COMPLETELY VICTORIOUS result of Salvation... For if even ONE is missing, then the COMPLETE number of MEN, ...is INCOMPLETE, and the mission to SAVE them, in VAIN concerning that ONE, as well as a FAILURE concerning that ONE...

So before getting into the details... The SALVATION of ALL is the only result that makes logical sense as performed by a GOD which claims to be ALMIGHTY, the SAVIOR OF ALL of THEM, and within that, notes Himself as IMPARTIAL TO ALL of THEM.

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PM
Hello all,

My first post.

Maybe it's not possible to be fully, absolutely 100% certain/convinced that UR is true, I don't know.  That's where I'm hoping to get your takes.

JESUS noted His mission to be this:  Luke 19:10 -- So the question that IMMEDIATELY arises is, ...how MANY are LOST Gky?

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PMI'm 75% there, maybe less at 70%.
The problem is, the remaining 25-30% doubt is enough conflict to leave my
soul in an anguishing cognitive dissonant state of limbo, particularly
my TRUST/'love" of God/Christ (or lack of).

Maybe your answer will be - THAT's where "faith" must be applied. The faith
to leap over that last 10, 15, 20, 30% of doubt.

You ARE where you ARE, because that is EXACTLY where God wants you to be... so don't let a few clouds of DOUBT, dispatch the MAJORITY of SUNSHINE as present!

A search for GOD encompasses the WHOLE HEART -- Jer 29:14 -- so trust to Him shape that heart, as HE is the potter...  :happygrin:

Also, try to remember that the CLAY is marred IN HIS HAND and OF HIS DOING -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:21

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PMI'm too far into UR at 70% to go back to the hideous ET doctrine.
That literally drove my soul to a point of becoming an Ex-Christian at one point.

However, the remaining 25-30% doubt I have stems from Scripture itself.
Though for example the Apostle Paul never uses the word HELL so-to-speak,
he explicitly spells out EXCLUSIVITY (i.e Romans 9, Galatians 5:19 for starters)

Okay.. lets take a look at these 2 for starters...

Rom 9 --  Who is in charge here bro?  Is the CLAY, "shaping itself"?  And if NOT, then are not all LUMPS of Clay subject to His shaping, however their observances of themselves might be or not be?  Paul is herein writing to BELIEVERS is he not?  And what CAUSED them to BELIEVE?  Did they do it of themselves, or was it according to the ELECTION of the Creator? -- Rom 9:11

There are 10 verses that I have found that NOTE that GOD is IMPARTIAL to ALL -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Prov 28:21 -- Mark 12:14 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Col 3:25 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Rom 2:11 -- Why would He repeat over and over and over and over and over that He is IMPARTIAL if He is not? (i.e. exclusive?)  I think at least "ONE CLOUD" that rests over you is that YOU are not PAUL, and I am not PETER... You happen to be Gky and I am willieH... PAUL & PETER were chosen to be so, by the ONE which has the WISDOM to make such a choice.  :dontknow:

Gal 5:19 -- Who can EXEMPT themselves from this verse, Gky?  Only ONE that I know of... JESUS CHRIST.  Men who involve themselves in the FLESH shall not partake of the parameters of the SPIRIT which produce OPPOSITE results...  As PAUL notes a few verses later in admonishment, those SPIRITUAL involvements do NOT by the nature of those involvements, produce OPPOSITION to LAW.  ALL have SINNED, so at times, ALL have proposed OPPOSITION to LAW -- Rom 3:23

We are "works in progress" bro... PAUL noted Himself as having a WAR within his MEMBERS, despite the longings and beliefs of his HEART (see Rom 7 entire chapter)... JOHN noted that -- "if we say we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT in us" -- 1 John 1:8 -- this verse agrees with the battles of PAUL to be LIFELONG... not a thing that goes "POOF" and SIN is miraculously gone from our experience...

These men were wise enough to KNOW that as long as a MAN is in the FLESH of THIS LIFE, that he shall be BATTLING that FLESH, if he is SPIRITUALLY given over to GOD...

The TRUE desire to serve GOD is what is changed in us, within OUR HEARTS... however, ...we REMAIN on the "battleground"...

God chooses whom shall be his messengers --- and concerning that issue, He IS exclusive.  For He is a GOD of ORDER and PERFECTION... and ALL CHIEFS and NO INDIANS makes for a CHAOTIC tribe, ifyaknowhattamean...  :dontknow:

The president or CEO of a company does not make ALL his employees SUPERVISORS!  Neither does GOD make ALL MEN, leaders and teachers of His WORD...

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PMIs it possible to reach a point of being convinced enough (if not 100% convinced)
to achieve a legitimate practical peace / resolve / confidence that UR will be God's final means of salvation???

Again, might I remind you that PEACE is that which LOVE establishes in us... Lose the FEAR of the WORLD, and as you do, LOVE shall calm the storms which assault your heart with DOUBT -- 1 John 4:18

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PMThank you all for your patience in welcoming me aboard!

Every new brother  :boyheart: ...and sister  :girlheart: ...is precious to all of us here at Tentmaker! 

:Peace:

Quote from: gky on January 11, 2010, 11:37:45 PM
I guess I battle with God seemingly endorsing prominent/famous pastors,
music ministers, evangelists etc (HUGE PROPONENTS of ET), with miracles,
answered prayers, and repeated blessings.   While many of these seem smug
in declaring a partial salvation gospel, God's apparent endorsement of their ministries and their personal lives appears to VALIDATE THEIR WITNESS, included among other things, providing "VALIDATION"/"PROOF" that ET is true.
That's something that really makes me angry toward God, that apparent
favortism while the stakes of alleged favor/condemnation are eternal.

Really all I can say here is this, if you study the law of averages, you will find that if they preached the gospel of the flying spagetti monster you would see no difference in what favoritism you think they enjoy.  Something to think on.

Hello GKY,

You are not alone in feeling the way you do with those who apparently are endorsed by God. A man named Asaph had some of the same thoughts. Please read this and see if you can identify with how he felt. Then notice the conclusion he eventually came to.

Psa 73:2  But my feet had almost stumbled. They had almost slipped
Psa 73:3  because I was envious of arrogant people when I saw the prosperity that wicked people enjoy.
Psa 73:4  They suffer no pain. Their bodies are healthy.
Psa 73:5  They have no drudgery in their lives like ordinary people. They are not plagued with problems like others.
Psa 73:6  That is why they wear arrogance like a necklace and acts of violence like clothing.
Psa 73:7  Their eyes peer out from their fat faces, and their imaginations run wild.
Psa 73:8  They ridicule. They speak maliciously. They speak arrogantly about oppression.
Psa 73:9  They verbally attack heaven, and they order people around on earth.
Psa 73:10  That is why God's people turn to wickedness and swallow their words.
Psa 73:11  Then wicked people ask, "What does God know?" "Does the Most High know anything?"
Psa 73:12  Look how wicked they are! They never have a worry. They grow more and more wealthy.
Psa 73:13  I've received no reward for keeping my life pure and washing my hands of any blame.
Psa 73:14  I'm plagued with problems all day long, and every morning my punishment begins again.
Psa 73:15  If I had said, "I will continue to talk like that," I would have betrayed God's people.
Psa 73:16  But when I tried to understand this, it was too difficult for me.
Psa 73:17  Only when I came into God's holy place did I finally understand what would happen to them.
Psa 73:18  You put them in slippery places and make them fall into ruin.
Psa 73:19  They are suddenly destroyed. They are completely swept away by terror!
Psa 73:20  As someone gets rid of a dream when he wakes up, so you, O Lord, get rid of the thought of them when you wake up.
Psa 73:21  When my heart was filled with bitterness and my mind was seized with envy,
Psa 73:22  I was stupid, and I did not understand. I was like a dumb animal in your presence.
Psa 73:23  Yet, I am always with you. You hold on to my right hand.
Psa 73:24  With your advice you guide me, and in the end you will take me to glory.

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PM
I'm too far into UR at 70% to go back to the hideous ET doctrine.
That literally drove my soul to a point of becoming an Ex-Christian at one point.

However, the remaining 25-30% doubt I have stems from Scripture itself.
Though for example the Apostle Paul never uses the word HELL so-to-speak,
he explicitly spells out EXCLUSIVITY (i.e Romans 9, Galatians 5:19 for starters)

You've received some great answers, but I wanted to point out something about election as Paul discusses it, particularly in Ephesians 1. Many partialists point to the scriptures on election as confirmations that God extends salvation only to a select few. Fortunately, the clear intent is entirely the opposite, as Ephesians 1 demonstrates beyond any doubt.

The elect, as opposed to all mankind, are indeed being called out in this dispensation, but not at the exclusion of the balance of humanity. They are being called according to God's mighty purpose in Jesus Christ... which is to reconcile everyone and everything to their Creator. Read it for yourself, my friend. Ephesians 1 could not be clearer, even if it often has been butchered by the grossest of misinterpretations.

Paul told the Corinthians that he and they were ministers of that very reconciliation. That same ministry continues to this day, and I believe that it is to continue until its purpose has been achieved both in this age and in the age to come.

John closes the Apocalypse by telling us that the leaves of the tree of life are for healing, my friend. Go and see into whose hands those wonderful leaves are to be entrusted. The answer should make you very, very happy indeed! :)

God bless you and keep you,

Andy

Thank you all for taking time out to welcome, answer, encourage, correct, exhort.

I was considering opening a new subject/post on how God seems to validate ET by how He seemingly "blesses" and endorses many prominent leaders of ET.
That's not to say that I won't open a new post on this to get a broader survey,
but the thoughts/answers you gave on that provide enough to work with at this point.

 :cloud9: All excellent answers here, and I only want to share the thought that, regarding the ET'ers who ministries are being blessed by signs and wonders: the gifts of God are without repentance AND the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

When I inquired of Him over this same thing, what came was that the anointing they are enjoying is the anointing for "burial", ie. they have stayed at the "party" too long, not discerning that Pentecost is to be overtaken by Tabernacles, the end-part realm of Pentecost is soon to end.

So rather than be angry at God for what you perceived to be His unwarranted favor, better to be rejoicing that He has found you worthy to come into a deeper walk with Him in the SECRET place of the Most High. Blessings...

Quote from: pickr on January 14, 2010, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: gky on January 08, 2010, 10:14:06 PM
I'm too far into UR at 70% to go back to the hideous ET doctrine.
That literally drove my soul to a point of becoming an Ex-Christian at one point.

However, the remaining 25-30% doubt I have stems from Scripture itself.
Though for example the Apostle Paul never uses the word HELL so-to-speak,
he explicitly spells out EXCLUSIVITY (i.e Romans 9, Galatians 5:19 for starters)

You've received some great answers, but I wanted to point out something about election as Paul discusses it, particularly in Ephesians 1. Many partialists point to the scriptures on election as confirmations that God extends salvation only to a select few. Fortunately, the clear intent is entirely the opposite, as Ephesians 1 demonstrates beyond any doubt.

The elect, as opposed to all mankind, are indeed being called out in this dispensation, but not at the exclusion of the balance of humanity. They are being called according to God's mighty purpose in Jesus Christ... which is to reconcile everyone and everything to their Creator. Read it for yourself, my friend. Ephesians 1 could not be clearer, even if it often has been butchered by the grossest of misinterpretations.

Paul told the Corinthians that he and they were ministers of that very reconciliation. That same ministry continues to this day, and I believe that it is to continue until its purpose has been achieved both in this age and in the age to come.

John closes the Apocalypse by telling us that the leaves of the tree of life are for healing, my friend. Go and see into whose hands those wonderful leaves are to be entrusted. The answer should make you very, very happy indeed! :)

God bless you and keep you,

Andy

Amen and Amen

Quote from: Cardinal on January 19, 2010, 07:21:31 PM
discerning that Pentecost is to be overtaken by Tabernacles, the end-part realm of Pentecost is soon to end.

Hi Cardinal, what do you perceive being overtaken by Tabernacles will be like, when it occurs within yourself?  in other words, will it be an unwavering "peace", a complete disidentification of the "carnal mind"?  etc???  have you gotten there yet??  very interested in this.  thanks. 

 :cloud9: Hi Zeek...I had a taste of what I think it will be like, during the first 10 days of my salvation experience, and at that time I asked the Lord (when that anointing dissipated) if I would ever get to walk in that again, and I felt that He assured me that was what was waiting. I've since touched into a little of it in the last few years. I felt like it would not take much more to put me on the "other side", in that 10 day period. I didn't even feel like I belonged "here", I was so aware of the realm of His Spirit only.

First let me tell you what the first taste was like. I was barely "here", I actually felt no weight or mass to my physical body at all. I literally saw my inner body, composed of what looked like cells of golden light; it was "vibrating" or quickened, at a very fast pace and I was aware of that as well. I started reading the Word the first day, for the first time in my life, but had not read the part about Him quickening our mortal bodies yet. Well, I felt the quickening and it's real.

I so didn't feel my body mass, I actually was caught by my mother, as I was gingerly getting ready to touch the fridge, because I entertained the thought that my hand might go right thru it!

In addition to that, I was aware of HIS tremendous love for all, and also aware of those who were unsaved, and it just broke my heart. The 4th day of this, my friend and her 14 year old daughter took me with them to a mall in Indy. I was so overcome with His love and being able to "feel" who was not "saved", I was walking up to total strangers hugging them, crying over them, and telling them how much He loved them and wanted them to turn to Him. Her daughter was mortified, and I heard her a few feet behind me, saying, "Mooommmm, make her stop!"

I had it "dropped" into my spirit that when He was done, I would love other people's children as much as I loved mine, and I remembered thinking to myself, that's just not possible. I would die for my children. But so would HE.

With this increased discernment, came a knowing of the people I came into contact with. I knew not only that they were saved or not, I KNEW THEM, as He knew them. I knew things about them that was simply impossible for me to know. Since I didn't know any Christians save my one back-slidden Baptist friend, I thought this was "normal" after receiving Him.

So I have had a couple of episodes similar to this in the last few years. One of the things that accompanies it, is increased revelation in the Word and not only the written but the natural including the Word that is expressed thru people, in that the Spirit "translated" or turned their water/Word into wine/revelation. I was shown this is how we "feast" on "TABERNACLES", ie. the Spirit in us is quite capable of "distilling" the Word out of them and turning it into revelation for us to partake of, part of the hidden manna.

The most surprising aspect of this, was to find that His Spirit could speak things out of those that I knew had no conscious relationship with Him, and He could quicken what He wanted me to hear out of them also. He showed me this is how "tongues cease", ie. we no longer hear the "tongues" of carnal man, but hear what the Spirit is speaking irregardless of the source.

I was shown that the Christ/Word in them is as the riches laid up for the just; they are simply holding the Truth (thy Word is truth) in UNrighteousness. And if you do a study on the word "pavillions" you will find that it means the same as Tabernacles, and that He has HIDDEN Himself in the darkness, which lines up with making us a feast of FAT things. Fat is congealed oil = Spirit not flowing, and fat is above that which is needed. The ones with one talent that do not use it, end up giving it to those that will.

I think these things I am describing are a precursor to the finished work, the full import of what that will mean, I don't think anyone will know fully until it happens to them. I know this is long, but it's difficult to describe in a few words. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 19, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
:cloud9: Hi Zeek...I had a taste of what I think it will be like, during the first 10 days of my salvation experience, and at that time I asked the Lord (when that anointing dissipated) if I would ever get to walk in that again, and I felt that He assured me that was what was waiting. I've since touched into a little of it in the last few years. I felt like it would not take much more to put me on the "other side", in that 10 day period. I didn't even feel like I belonged "here", I was so aware of the realm of His Spirit only.

First let me tell you what the first taste was like. I was barely "here", I actually felt no weight or mass to my physical body at all. I literally saw my inner body, composed of what looked like cells of golden light; it was "vibrating" or quickened, at a very fast pace and I was aware of that as well. I started reading the Word the first day, for the first time in my life, but had not read the part about Him quickening our mortal bodies yet. Well, I felt the quickening and it's real.

I so didn't feel my body mass, I actually was caught by my mother, as I was gingerly getting ready to touch the fridge, because I entertained the thought that my hand might go right thru it!

In addition to that, I was aware of HIS tremendous love for all, and also aware of those who were unsaved, and it just broke my heart. The 4th day of this, my friend and her 14 year old daughter took me with them to a mall in Indy. I was so overcome with His love and being able to "feel" who was not "saved", I was walking up to total strangers hugging them, crying over them, and telling them how much He loved them and wanted them to turn to Him. Her daughter was mortified, and I heard her a few feet behind me, saying, "Mooommmm, make her stop!"

I had it "dropped" into my spirit that when He was done, I would love other people's children as much as I loved mine, and I remembered thinking to myself, that's just not possible. I would die for my children. But so would HE.

With this increased discernment, came a knowing of the people I came into contact with. I knew not only that they were saved or not, I KNEW THEM, as He knew them. I knew things about them that was simply impossible for me to know. Since I didn't know any Christians save my one back-slidden Baptist friend, I thought this was "normal" after receiving Him.

So I have had a couple of episodes similar to this in the last few years. One of the things that accompanies it, is increased revelation in the Word and not only the written but the natural including the Word that is expressed thru people, in that the Spirit "translated" or turned their water/Word into wine/revelation. I was shown this is how we "feast" on "TABERNACLES", ie. the Spirit in us is quite capable of "distilling" the Word out of them and turning it into revelation for us to partake of, part of the hidden manna.

The most surprising aspect of this, was to find that His Spirit could speak things out of those that I knew had no conscious relationship with Him, and He could quicken what He wanted me to hear out of them also. He showed me this is how "tongues cease", ie. we no longer hear the "tongues" of carnal man, but hear what the Spirit is speaking irregardless of the source.

I was shown that the Christ/Word in them is as the riches laid up for the just; they are simply holding the Truth (thy Word is truth) in UNrighteousness. And if you do a study on the word "pavillions" you will find that it means the same as Tabernacles, and He that He has HIDDEN Himself in the darkness, which lines up with making us a feast of FAT things. Fat is congealed oil = Spirit not flowing, and fat is above that which is needed. The ones with one talent that do not use it, end up giving it to those that will.

I think these things I am describing are a precursor to the finished work, the full import of what that will mean, I don't think anyone will know fully until it happens to them. I know this is long, but it's difficult to describe in a few words. Blessings....

that is fascinating; what amazes me as it mirrors almost exactly what some "non christian" spiritual teachers/authors that have attained "enlightenment" write.    interesting.  thank you. 

UR is a religion... you will get out of it what you put in just like any other belief system.... and you can only trust it as much as you are willing to go with it....

As far as God's universal love.... As a father, with one look at my daughter I know without hesitation that God would never reject one of His children.

Peace from Him to you;
Dallas

Quote from: gky on January 19, 2010, 06:59:51 PM
I was considering opening a new subject/post on how God seems to validate ET by how He seemingly "blesses" and endorses many prominent leaders of ET.

Some could (and probably DO) gaze upon those in the MAFIA, and think them to be "blessed" -- eh?  :JCThink:

Should this inaccurate observance/deduction, thereby turn us to crime, in order to find "blessing"?  :dontknow:

Just because an outward prosperity appears, does not mean that SPIRITUAL BLESSING is present, within...

Better to be approved by GOD within, and destitute without...

Than to be a KING without and disapproved by GOD within...

 :cloud9: The rain falls upon the just AND the unjust.....Blessings....

QuoteSome could (and probably DO) gaze upon those in the MAFIA, and think them to be "blessed" -- eh? 

Should this inaccurate observance/deduction, thereby turn us to crime, in order to find "blessing"? 

Just because an outward prosperity appears, does not mean that SPIRITUAL BLESSING is present, within...

:thumbsup:

I just learned to accept what the Bible said - that God is the savior of all men, and dropped the man-made nonsense I've been hearing most of my life.
I originally thought hell was a load of nonsense, saw the errors in the mistranslation of the word 'eternal' and many other things, before I ever set foot inside a church...as it turns out I was right all along, God really is love and will save all, despite how men twist the words of the Bible.
All the modern day church's 'doctrines' ever brought to me was confusion, especially by the 'fruits' that were lacking in most of them...They worship a being that would torcher most of it's own creation forever, showing them up for what they are.
...In the church is the seat of Satan. (Revelation).

   I personally came to believe that the ultimate salvation of all was 100% possible through a process of elimination combined with a word study. I was saved by a supernatural revelation of Jesus outside the church. I never had any Christian teaching before that. After that I read the word on my own for a long time before I went to churches looking for fellowship. When the things I was taught in churches didn t jive with what I already knew from the Spirit and the Word I was greatly troubled, and ET and the doctrines surrounding it was the biggest pain of all.

   But I always believed that the scriptures were true, and that any seeming paradox was a gateway to deeper truth if I could press through, for "everyone who seeks finds". So I just kept praying and studying. The clincher for me was Colossians 1:16-20. It says(16-17)  "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together".
As John wrote , Joh 1:3  "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being". So, when Col 1:19-20 says "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,  and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven", then to me that means the same "all things" he created is the "all things" He reconciled.
 
 Then I saw Eph 1:8-11, saying....  "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him   with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..."
 
 And 1 Cor 15:22-28  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. ......... When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 And   Rom 11:32-36  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

  And  1Jn 2:1-2  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Well, I've always been a word guy. I mean, "It is written". I mean, "the scriptures cannot be broken". I mean, "all scripture is God breathed".I mean, "no prophecy of scripture is given to any man's private interpretation, but holy men moved of God.....", etc., etc., ad infinitim.

So I began to perceive that the scriptures could not be true if all these verses were not true as written. Then, as I began to do the word studies on "forever" and "hell" it became clear to me that it could not be any other way. If these verses, and many more like them are not true, then I might as well just throw it all out, because the integrity of the scripture is a foundation of the faith.

  Believe me when I say that it is all right with me if God wants to burn Hitler right out of existence. I am no holy man. I might even prefer it so. Manson, Caligula, pedophiles, serial killers, sure, I'm OK with that, fry em forever or burn em up.......  I am not proud of that, its just true. But I believe the word of God and I believe the scriptures more than anything anyone has ever reasoned with me, pro or con or otherwise.

  When I read those verses in Colossians and Ephesians and 1 Corinthians I am left with no choice but to believe all punishment is remedial(reforming/transforming) and finite(an appropriate sentence for the purpose of rehabilitation not revenge), and that the "summing up"(gathering into one) and the "reconciliation" of all things includes every angel, every principality and power, every living soul that was created through Jesus Christ. He is "the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world". So that is my testimony. I wrestled for years with this, so I know it is not as simple as what I have presented here, but I believe it is the "good news" that beautiful feet carry upon the mountains.

 :goodpost:  just sent this one to my wife

Quote1Jn 2:1-2  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I have read this verse I don't know how many times, heard it spoken soooooo many times, but tonight I just saw something in it in a different light!  WOW!

:dsunny: :ty: :banana:

Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2010, 05:29:11 AM
  I personally came to believe that the ultimate salvation of all was 100% possible through a process of elimination combined with a word study. I was saved by a supernatural revelation of Jesus outside the church. I never had any Christian teaching before that. After that I read the word on my own for a long time before I went to churches looking for fellowship. When the things I was taught in churches didn t jive with what I already knew from the Spirit and the Word I was greatly troubled, and ET and the doctrines surrounding it was the biggest pain of all.

   But I always believed that the scriptures were true, and that any seeming paradox was a gateway to deeper truth if I could press through, for "everyone who seeks finds". So I just kept praying and studying. The clincher for me was Colossians 1:16-20. It says(16-17)  "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together".
As John wrote , Joh 1:3  "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being". So, when Col 1:19-20 says "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,  and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven", then to me that means the same "all things" he created is the "all things" He reconciled.
 
 Then I saw Eph 1:8-11, saying....  "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him   with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..."
 
 And 1 Cor 15:22-28  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. ......... When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 And   Rom 11:32-36  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

  And  1Jn 2:1-2  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Well, I've always been a word guy. I mean, "It is written". I mean, "the scriptures cannot be broken". I mean, "all scripture is God breathed".I mean, "no prophecy of scripture is given to any man's private interpretation, but holy men moved of God.....", etc., etc., ad infinitim.

So I began to perceive that the scriptures could not be true if all these verses were not true as written. Then, as I began to do the word studies on "forever" and "hell" it became clear to me that it could not be any other way. If these verses, and many more like them are not true, then I might as well just throw it all out, because the integrity of the scripture is a foundation of the faith.

  Believe me when I say that it is all right with me if God wants to burn Hitler right out of existence. I am no holy man. I might even prefer it so. Manson, Caligula, pedophiles, serial killers, sure, I'm OK with that, fry em forever or burn em up.......  I am not proud of that, its just true. But I believe the word of God and I believe the scriptures more than anything anyone has ever reasoned with me, pro or con or otherwise.

  When I read those verses in Colossians and Ephesians and 1 Corinthians I am left with no choice but to believe all punishment is remedial(reforming/transforming) and finite(an appropriate sentence for the purpose of rehabilitation not revenge), and that the "summing up"(gathering into one) and the "reconciliation" of all things includes every angel, every principality and power, every living soul that was created through Jesus Christ. He is "the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world". So that is my testimony. I wrestled for years with this, so I know it is not as simple as what I have presented here, but I believe it is the "good news" that beautiful feet carry upon the mountains.

Literally, tears running down my face.....


S

His blood is inexhaustible. Praise the living blood of Christ Jesus!

There's only grace, mercy and love.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ArVuqm324

Many wonderful and true things may be said about Holy Scripture; but, of utmost importance is that the Holy Spirit uses the words of Scripture to bring about conditions favorable to the manifestation of God to our awareness.  This point, to know God by experience, is primary to the work of Jesus:  His incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension.  The gospel is for you to experience God.

This is the only path to whatever certainty it is possible for us to have:  we must fix our gaze intently upon the face of God Who is the Absolute Truth.  Bathe in His radiance. Soak in His presence.

Something I ask people who have some experience with the Holy Spirit is if your personal revelation of Jesus is that of a Master Torturer Whose purpose is to make you in that image also.  Is that alright with your conscience?

Quote from: sscoulter on January 28, 2010, 04:46:58 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2010, 05:29:11 AM
  I personally came to believe that the ultimate salvation of all was 100% possible through a process of elimination combined with a word study. I was saved by a supernatural revelation of Jesus outside the church. I never had any Christian teaching before that. After that I read the word on my own for a long time before I went to churches looking for fellowship. When the things I was taught in churches didn t jive with what I already knew from the Spirit and the Word I was greatly troubled, and ET and the doctrines surrounding it was the biggest pain of all.

   But I always believed that the scriptures were true, and that any seeming paradox was a gateway to deeper truth if I could press through, for "everyone who seeks finds". So I just kept praying and studying. The clincher for me was Colossians 1:16-20. It says(16-17)  "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together".
As John wrote , Joh 1:3  "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being". So, when Col 1:19-20 says "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,  and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven", then to me that means the same "all things" he created is the "all things" He reconciled.
 
 Then I saw Eph 1:8-11, saying....  "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him   with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..."
 
 And 1 Cor 15:22-28  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. ......... When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 And   Rom 11:32-36  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

  And  1Jn 2:1-2  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Well, I've always been a word guy. I mean, "It is written". I mean, "the scriptures cannot be broken". I mean, "all scripture is God breathed".I mean, "no prophecy of scripture is given to any man's private interpretation, but holy men moved of God.....", etc., etc., ad infinitim.

So I began to perceive that the scriptures could not be true if all these verses were not true as written. Then, as I began to do the word studies on "forever" and "hell" it became clear to me that it could not be any other way. If these verses, and many more like them are not true, then I might as well just throw it all out, because the integrity of the scripture is a foundation of the faith.

  Believe me when I say that it is all right with me if God wants to burn Hitler right out of existence. I am no holy man. I might even prefer it so. Manson, Caligula, pedophiles, serial killers, sure, I'm OK with that, fry em forever or burn em up.......  I am not proud of that, its just true. But I believe the word of God and I believe the scriptures more than anything anyone has ever reasoned with me, pro or con or otherwise.

  When I read those verses in Colossians and Ephesians and 1 Corinthians I am left with no choice but to believe all punishment is remedial(reforming/transforming) and finite(an appropriate sentence for the purpose of rehabilitation not revenge), and that the "summing up"(gathering into one) and the "reconciliation" of all things includes every angel, every principality and power, every living soul that was created through Jesus Christ. He is "the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world". So that is my testimony. I wrestled for years with this, so I know it is not as simple as what I have presented here, but I believe it is the "good news" that beautiful feet carry upon the mountains.

Literally, tears running down my face.....


S

QuoteI have been intensely angry with God for a long time.  Yeah I hate to admit
it but I have HATED GOD (even as a so-called Christian) - no pulling punches - no excuses - I'm guilty.
Many things have occurred over the years  re-enforcing my perception that God seems to hate me.    I accept that I'm being punished/chastised deservingly so.
So Paul, I think I see what you're saying.

Is there a possibility that you were only hating what you thought was God, and not actually God?

Hello Universalist Catholic,

Thank you.  YES I believe I am going through a very long drawn out spiritual/mental/emotional/psychological/(and even physical) detoxification process, attempting to understand Who the REAL God/Christ is.  The God I've been taught
from Catholic school when I was 5-7 years old to the God presented by the self-proclaimed "verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book non denominational" CULT I've spent 20 years did drive me to HATE GOD, so you're right on the money
with your question.

One of the things I began doing when entering a short but very traumatic season of
evolving into an "Ex-Christian" was to ask myself - If I could have lived and been there
to hear Jesus Christ's voice and experience HOW He spoke at the Mount of Olives "Sermon on the Mount", His facial and vocal tone, etc I thought I might have a chance to "REALLY MEET HIM PERSONALLY".  Many pulpit performers present Him as unconditionally loving on one side of their mouth, but on the other side, they read the RED LETTERS in a hyper-stoic and condensending vibe.    Reading the RED LETTERS over and over again for myself helped a lot, but still (to this day) doesn't answer what seems to be Jesus' insinuations of eternal exclusivity for many.  I have a lot to learn.

I would like to have seen His face, heard His vocal tone, body language when He spoke those phrases that have been leveraged as "certain proofs" of Hell i.e. "weeping and
gnashing of teeth", "where the worm never dies and the fire is not quenched", "on that
day many will say Lord Lord ... depart from me you doers of iniquity, I never knew you" and the like.  If I had the nerve and lived in that day, I would have attempted to tap Him
on the shoulder and asked what He meant.  I would have been way more "doubting"
than Thomas if I could have been there myself. 

But I also need to answer you honestly and share the severe failures of my expectations of God/Christ.  If I were alive during His time on earth, I would have been a guilty accomplice of His execution. I would have chanted "Hosanna in the Highest" on that Sunday, only to  chant "Crucify Him - I want Barabbas" in the middle of that fateful week.  Why do I say this?  Because I've made the mistake of initially following Jesus assuming He would facilitate my selfish dreams of "ministry".  When He did not "answer my prayers" I began to resent, then hate Him.   Like the citizens of that time who wanted deliverance from those "evil" Romans,  we American Christians assume God will "rapture" us once the "world" starts to "persecute" us and destroy our own delusional bubbles. We are foolishly filled with presumption and self-entitlement
thinking God will deliver us the moment someone causes a hang-nail, while currently,
REAL believers in Christ are being martyred in many other parts of the world as we speak.   And throw in yet another horrific disaster in Chile following Haiti - I can't help but wonder (no I don't wish for calamity upon us) why we are so spared - so far ... that's
the part that scares me - I feel like that other shoe will eventually drop on
America and it's going to be a very heavy shoe to recomense for our hideous presumption and arrogance. 

Sorry for rambling.  Thank you all for your patience!

gky, I had that same problem.  Its still hard to push all that ET dung off.  Those ET apologists try to defend that doctrine, but their defense are terrible.  One person asked what is the purpose of Hell.  Someone explained that "Purpose is reserved only for time, and hell is outside of time, so hell has no purpose."  But by that logic, that would make Purgatory or Heaven with no purpose.  Last I checked, Purgatory carries the purpose of Purification. 

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 03, 2010, 04:57:45 PM


Is there a possibility that you were only hating what you thought was God, and not actually God?

Sooooooo many caught in this. Thats why we cannot judge, we must love and share in meekness with patience. Dear Jesus knows the secrets of our hearts. I actually believe hating a god that would torment so many forever is actually loving the God who wouldn't. Therefore, our recognizing through the spirit man His eternal power (to save all) and divine nature (to forgive all) is so important to Him that He easily understands, forgives, and waits for the dawn to break in us. Those barriers in our mind, false icons of God and of Christ, are the towers and the strongholds that exalt theselves against "the true knowledge of God" and are being torn down.  :swordfight: He is utterly patient as the cobwebs of the darkness begin to pass away. Then, when we are finally standing in the noonday sun, He rejoices with us in joy unspeakable and full of glory- :dsunny: At last, we finally have seen His face, and know Him, the great I AM- as He really is. That is all He ever wanted. This revelation of the mystery was His kind intention which He purposed from the beginning- to the praise of the glory of His grace. As you begin to see that the father who abused you with the whip and the threat never was the Father who loves you so dearly- GREAT DELIVERANCE is accomplished. The Father is rejoicing through your entire journey into it, because He knows the fulfillment of His desire for you is coming. He loves you. HAHA! YEAH!  :bgdance:

Thank you eaglesway,

Your post and especially this comment was very encouraging:

"I actually believe hating a god that would torment so many forever is actually loving the God who wouldn't."