Interesting UR references

[marie glen]

I was doing a bit of "christian universalism" searching and surfing and came across this, which is posts here - http://perichoresis.activeboard.com/t8242475/universalism-the-beautiful-heresy/

I especially liked the references to Sodom, Egypt, etc..

http://perichoresis.activeboard.com/t8242475/universalism-the-beautiful-heresy/

After reading several books on universalism, I'm now convinced that God's final word to us is not condemnation but reconciliation.


Sodom was a very wicked city. When angels went to investigate, the men wanted to rape them. The city was judged and destroyed and only Lot and his daughters manage to escape. Everyone knows this story and nearly all, myself included, believed that was all there is to Sodom's story.


In Ezekiel 16, Ezekiel chastised Jerusalem for her unfaithfulness to the Lord, calling her an "adulteress wife" and "prostitute". Ezekiel wrote, "Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom." Sodom had done "detestable things" and "therefore [the Lord] did away with them as you have seen." Jerusalem was then told she is just as evil as Sodom and Samaria.


Then suddenly, starting at v. 53, the prophecy turns to images of reconciliation. The Lord says through Ezekiel, "However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them...your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before" because the Lord will "make atonement for you for all you've done."


The last word the Lord speaks is not condemnation but reconciliation and restoration. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

-----------

Another passage in the bible where judgment is followed by reconciliation and redemption is Isaiah 19.


The chapter begins with judgment against Egypt. They will be handed over to "a cruel master", the Nile will run dry, and the people will lose hope. "The LORD has poured into them a spirit of dizziness; they make Egypt stagger in all that she does, as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit." and "They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them."


Then Isaiah makes an interesting claim about the purpose of God's judgment on Egypt. "The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them."


The chapter ends with an incredibly beautiful picture of Israel and her two despised enemies, Egypt and Assyria. "In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."


Judgment yes, but it is not the final word.

-----

There are probably other passages in the bible where judgment is followed by words of peace and reconciliation. Gregory MacDonald, in the Evangelical Universalist, outlined a very interesting one in Revelation that takes place in New Jerusalem. If his reading is right, and it does seem very plausible, then the last, last word God speaks to fallen, evil humanity is peace and restoration. The gates of New Jerusalem are never closed.

CST, I believe just mentioned those gates left open, in a thread yesterday, or a day ago or so..

Continued -
I take hope that there maybe more to the stories of Uzzah (the guy who reached out to steady the ark after the oxen stumbled and was struck dead by the Lord), the people who died vomiting after eating quail in the dessert, Ananias & Sapphira, Judas Iscariot and all those millions of anonymous people who lived brutish lives and died ignoble deaths.


As Jesus Christ was dying on the cross, he said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Surely that global statement encompasses all of humanity.

--------

Great stuff here, Caroline!  I'm actually preaching a sermon on this very topic tomorrow--how judgment serves God's greater purpose of reconciliation.  I believe this final word of reconciliation has already been spoken, and it's pronounced JEE-Zuhs.  This Word confronts us and demands that we deal with it. I'm not a universalist now, but I hope to be one someday--on that day (that I hope will come) when the scales fall off the eyes of the last straggler.


Some passages of Scripture to add to your pile, out of the most 'judgmental' books of the Bible:


"The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart" (Jeremiah 30.24; 32.20).



And what is the purpose of the LORD's heart?...(Ephesians 3.11-12) "His eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."



"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth...Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear...All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame" (Isaiah 45.22-24).



And what does shame accomplish?...(Psalm 83.16)..."Cover their faces with shame so that men will seek your name, O LORD."

that's not even half the discussion, but it's as far as I read.. I thought it was some very interesting stuff.. date of discussion was 2006

Well, I was looking a little further down the thread and came across this -

C.S. Lewis wrote of his conversion experience:

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England."

C.S. Lewis continues:

"I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape?"

........Surprised by Joy, C.S. Lewis

...and Caroline adds -  I may not have been as reluctant but I'm sure I was 2X as ignorant. I was converted by a presentation of the Bridge Diagram (that outlined my separation from God) and I said the Sinner's Prayer. Nevertheless, something fundamental (no pun intended) and monumental changed in my life, changed in my inner being. Now, if God can reach me, dead as I was, just as He reached all the other dead people around me, why can't He reach the dead dead (if there is such a thing). Romans 14:9 says Jesus Christ is the Lord of both the dead and the living.


The main thrust of Universalism is the possibility of post mortem conversion. I agree with what was said in the podcast that hell is being stuck in a relationship that I abhor with no possibility of escape. But can a person reject the one who is Love and Goodness personified forever? The good shepherd did not rest until he found his lost sheep even though he had 99 safe at home. The bible says that, eventually, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

[marie glen]

P.S - earlier today I read this - "Using population figures from the 2000 U.S. Census, this means that there are 43 million "Latent" Universalists in the United States! Many of them probably would be surprised to learn that there is a longstanding, honorable theological position which affirms their beliefs! The web is one way to let them know that there is a name for what they believe — "Universalism." If we could herd all these folks into one denomination, we could give the Fundamentalists a run for their money! (from the 2000 U.S. Census, this means that there are 43 million "Latent" Universalists in the United States!) ( http://www.christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/where-universalists-gone/ )