If 'eternal' isnt in the bible....

[jesushandsarekindhands]

...What becomes of eternal life?

[sven]

believers (and finally all man) gain immortality, when there is no death any longer, nobody will die any longer, eonian life seems to mean the life of the future eons.

the eonian life of believers will not end, though it might be understood as finite, because after the eons, there is no longer death.

this is a possible interpretation

[claypot]

To me 'eternal' is in the Bible, at least once.................God is eternal, nothing else is. I define it as no end and no beginning.

 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead romans 1.20

cp

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Ok thank you for that.

[Seth]

...What becomes of eternal life?

This is a long issue, but I wrote a whole paper on it. I hope it blesses you if you choose to read it: http://mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm

[Seth]

What the paper sets out to show is that "aionios life" is the life of Christ within us right now upon belief and reception of the Holy Spirit. Immortality is also promised too. The issue is that the orthodox church confuses the two thinking that "eternal (eonian) life" is a future specific thing involving conscious existence (that is immortality).

[jesushandsarekindhands]

What the paper sets out to show is that "aionios life" is the life of Christ within us right now upon belief and reception of the Holy Spirit. Immortality is also promised too. The issue is that the orthodox church confuses the two thinking that "eternal (eonian) life" is a future specific thing involving conscious existence (that is immortality).

Seth thanks im going to read through all that you wrote.

[Gab]

Technically speaking, it is in the Bible, twice - aidios is the Greek word that actually means "eternal", and it is used to describe God's power and divine nature (Romans 1:20) and the bonds in which angels are kept who abandoned their home (Jude 1:6).

It is true that the "aionion life" described in the Bible does not refer to eternal life if aionion ought not to be translated as "eternal" - which is an argument many use to say that it must be translated as eternal - but this doesn't mean that eternal life is not promised; it's just promised elsewhere.  Probably the easiest place to go is 1 Corinthians 15:26; here, we are promised that death will be abolished - and if death no longer exists, then what is the obvious conclusion?

[Tony N]

Here is what Nathaniel Scarlett of Scarlett's New Testament wrote on aidion:

Most Lexicon-writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever, or always: but it may have the same etemology as hades, which they derive from a negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Rom.1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it means unknown; becuase we see or know only a very small part of God's power. the word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus Thucydides has this phrase---othen aidion misboqboran uparchein, from whence he expected a perpetual salary." But this could be only a salary during his life: therefore the word here in Thucydides means a period unknown; though it will certainly end.
Taken from "A  Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek by Nathaniel Scarlett 1798.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Here is what Nathaniel Scarlett of Scarlett's New Testament wrote on aidion:

Most Lexicon-writers derive the word aidios from aei, ever, or always: but it may have the same etemology as hades, which they derive from a negative, and idein, to see; and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Rom.1:20 where it is applied to the power of the Deity, it means unknown; becuase we see or know only a very small part of God's power. the word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks: thus Thucydides has this phrase---othen aidion misboqboran uparchein, from whence he expected a perpetual salary." But this could be only a salary during his life: therefore the word here in Thucydides means a period unknown; though it will certainly end.
Taken from "A  Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek by Nathaniel Scarlett 1798.

So Tony your saying that the afterlife for humans will not last forever?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Damn it was starting to sound like good news lol

[gregoryfl]

Consider it this way:

We have aionios life. This is the life of Jesus himself. He is that life. Both aionios and aidos both have shades of meaning having to do with that which is unperceived, or hidden from plain view. Doesn't that truly describe what aionios life is? We can plainly see physical life, for we see each other breathing, moving, etc. Aionios life however, is just as real but you can't perceive it like you can physical life. So it has nothing to do with length of time when used as an adjective, but simply describing what has the characteristics of something that is hidden or hazy, imperceptible.

Now, how long is that life? Well, we know that God is immortal, and imperishable, so we can by those terms know that we indeed will have this life for what we know as eternity. It is just that the common words used to describe such life are not really what people have made them out to be.

Hope that help bro,

Ron

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Consider it this way:

We have aionios life. This is the life of Jesus himself. He is that life. Both aionios and aidos both have shades of meaning having to do with that which is unperceived, or hidden from plain view. Doesn't that truly describe what aionios life is? We can plainly see physical life, for we see each other breathing, moving, etc. Aionios life however, is just as real but you can't perceive it like you can physical life. So it has nothing to do with length of time when used as an adjective, but simply describing what has the characteristics of something that is hidden or hazy, imperceptible.

Now, how long is that life? Well, we know that God is immortal, and imperishable, so we can by those terms know that we indeed will have this life for what we know as eternity. It is just that the common words used to describe such life are not really what people have made them out to be.

Hope that help bro,

Ron

Ron thank you, yes i'm grasping it now thanks.

[WhiteWings]

Technically speaking, it is in the Bible, twice - aidios is the Greek word that actually means "eternal", and it is used to describe God's power and divine nature (Romans 1:20) and the bonds in which angels are kept who abandoned their home (Jude 1:6).

Jude 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I'm not so sure it means eternal here:
a] The angels are released on judgement day.
OR
b] The angels are being judged while still in chains.

Jude 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"Even as" sounds like a way of comparing to me.
Sodom and Gomorrha will be restored to full glory.
So I think it doesn't mean eternal in 1:6

[Gab]

Jude 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I'm not so sure it means eternal here:
a] The angels are released on judgement day.
OR
b] The angels are being judged while still in chains.

Jude 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"Even as" sounds like a way of comparing to me.
Sodom and Gomorrha will be restored to full glory.
So I think it doesn't mean eternal in 1:6

I don't claim to know precisely what to think about that context - perhaps it is merely saying that the bonds are eternal, or perhaps it is using it in a poetic, hyperbolic sense, or something thereabouts - but aidios definitely does mean "eternal".  In fact, one may use that word to contrast the beliefs of the Pharisees with the original Greek in Matthew - Josephus' writings tells us that the Pharisees believed in aidios (eternal) imprisonment and adialeipton (unceasing) punishment, whereas the Greek in Matthew 25:46 speaks of aionion chastisement.  I don't think that this is just a coincidence - Jesus rebuked the Pharisees on many other occasions, so it would fit right in for him to choose a wording here that also subtly rebuked the Pharisees.  The Greek language is very beautiful in its preciseness (no fewer than eleven Greek words are translated into the KJV into the singular English word "destroy"), so for it to have two words that are complete synonyms would be incredibly out of character.

The bottom line is that you can't attempt to define a word in a sentence based on one's preconceived notions about what that sentence must say - you have to incorporate the meanings of words into one's interpretation of what we are being told.

(I should also note, as well, that the word there translated into "eternal" in Jude 1:7 is not aidios, but aionion.)

[WhiteWings]

(I should also note, as well, that the word there translated into "eternal" in Jude 1:7 is not aidios, but aionion.)

Ok, but isn't "even as" in some way saying the eternal fire is 'equally' eternal as the chains.

but aidios definitely does mean "eternal".

I won't deny that; but I want to say this: In Dutch it's quite common to use words like eternal/forever/always to things that only last a few years.
Or even 30 minutes. Like always wear seatbelts. With a bit of common sense it's clear that it's only for the duration of the trip.
So basicly the word always in "always wear your seatbelts" means always but is limited in this case.
Perhaps also so for the chains of the angels?


Just a thought....

[martincisneros]

(I should also note, as well, that the word there translated into "eternal" in Jude 1:7 is not aidios, but aionion.)

Many Lexicon editors derive the word "aidios" from aei, ever, or always: but it very likely has the same etymology as "hades," which they derive from a negative, and idein, "to see;" and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of God, it's translated "unknown" by Scarlett's New Testament from 1798, because we see or know only a very small part of God's power. The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks. Thucydides has this phrase "othen aidion misthophoran uparchein" from whence he expected a perpetual salary. But this could be only a salary during his life time, therefore the word in Thucydides means a period unknown, though it will certainly end.

Concordant translates aidios as imperceptible on this same issue of it coming from Hades rather than aei.

[WhiteWings]

Just a thought; if God has a plan for salvation for His whole creation why shouldn't that include angels?
I'm aware some/many believe we are angels/messngers too. In that case the angels are included too.
To me it just seems not to match with God character to save one group and doom another group forever....

[martincisneros]

Just a thought; if God has a plan for salvation for His whole creation why shouldn't that include angels?

Not everyone can accept that the Bible is speaking of this in Colossians 1, Ephesians 3, a passage in Hebrews about treating strangers with care 'cause some have ministered to angels without even knowing it, but those are biases that exclude them rather than any solid passage prohibiting it. Or it's thought that the work of Christ only benefits the descendants of Adam, and then my Animal Gospel presentation throws a monkey wrench into that erroneous system and makes one realize that what's refered to as "theophanies" by the theologians or pre-incarnate manifestations of the Son of God as angels and descriptive language of Him in the Law and the Gospels as various animals such as lambs, cows, doves, chickens, etc., may be with the distinct redemptive inferences in mind of a wider scope of God's mercies than merely towards human beings because He relates to and with absolutely all of His creation and none of it is destitute of His love. 

The angel that met Him in Gethsemane was the restored Lucifer, i.e. Satan, and for the joy set before Him, He endured the Cross.  The human and animal cases for their redemption are easier to make and have less opposition 'cause they're clearly defined by the naked eye, but there's great confusion about angels specifically at the hands of the Prince of Darkness in order to muddy the waters a bit to try to prevent a clearly established position among any group of Christians as to what their final outcome will be.  The bottomline of making any of 'em anything other than what they've always traditionally been understood by historical [pre-Aquinas] Christianity to be is to say that they can't be saved, are annihilated, et. al.  It all comes down to a limitation on the perspective of God's love in an attempt at taking a stance against some aspect of God's Creation. It's doing what they accuse the ETer of doing with the barriers of death, the grave, the judgment, et. al.  If we can make these something other than sentient beings, then we can own them and disguard them at our leisure.  It's a form of speciesism that asserts that they can neither independently reason, communicate, experience pleasure, nor hurt and that to assert otherwise is to anthropomorphize.  I'm never surprised by it coming out of a speciesist to start with.

[Cardinal]

The angel that met Him in Gethsemane was the restored Lucifer, i.e. Satan, and for the joy set before Him, He endured the Cross. 

:cloud9: If you feel so led.......I would love to hear an explanation of this. Blessings....

[claypot]

Me too.

cp

[sven]

The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks. Thucydides has this phrase "othen aidion misthophoran uparchein" from whence he expected a perpetual salary.

I was long looking for that concerning aidios, do you have the source where this was quoted and maybe whoch Greek work?

[NinjaWizards777]

To me 'eternal' is in the Bible, at least once.................God is eternal, nothing else is. I define it as no end and no beginning.

 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead romans 1.20

cp

I find it interesting that the word for eternal there is apparently aidios and not aionion as in aionion kolasian("eternal" punishment/life). Seems to denote some difference between the words.

EDIT: I just now realized that after the post I read everyone was already talking about this. lol

[Akira Takahashi]

Off-topic question, but what words do the original texts use?  You know, not the Greek translation, but the original Hebrew or whatever language the New Testament was originally written in?  I tend not to follow the Greek version because of the numerous translation errors...

[WhiteWings]

Off-topic question, but what words do the original texts use?  You know, not the Greek translation, but the original Hebrew or whatever language the New Testament was originally written in?  I tend not to follow the Greek version because of the numerous translation errors...

NT is written in Koine Greek
OT is written in Hebrew + a little armiac