How Would You Respond

[JamesH]

To those who say that Universalism diminishes/undermines the cross? There are those who say that if all are saved even after death it diminishes the power of the cross which according to ECTers is the only sufficient way to redeem people. A refinement fire would reduce Christ's role on the cross as meaningless since the whole point of Christ going to the cross to begin with was to redeem and wash people's sins. 

[MusicLover123]

The Cross gives power over death, not the lack of it!

[Dandelion]

The cross did something extraordinary. It uses a being who was the only perfect sacrifice, both God, without sin, and a man, to represent all of mankind, and His sacrifice destroyed death, and gave new life, to all. Nothing can replicate that. Nothing ever will. God poured His love out for us, and died and suffered, to break the chains for us. A cleansing fire cannot break our chains.....it can only teach us about ourselves in relationship to God and our relationship to our fellow man. Jesus saved; the cleansing of the fire teaches.

For Jesus' victory to be complete, for Love to win, then all of us must have been saved.....not one lost to the powers of evil. That is the Victory of Christ.

The fire is to give us experiences that help to transform us, as do all of our experiences, here on earth. It is part of the process of our metamorphosis into a person free from the bondages of sin and death of this world, and allows us to be changed, so that we can enjoy Heaven, in our new selves.

Perhaps this is what Jesus was thinking of, when He told this parable?

Matthew 20:

1For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace without anything to do. 4'You also go into my vineyard,' he said, 'and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing.

6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' he asked.

7'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.

So he told them, 'You also go into my vineyard.'

8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and moving on to the first.'

9The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when the original workers came, they assumed they would receive more. But each of them also received a denarius.

11On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

13But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

My  :2c:

D.

[GodIsLove]

Good post Dandelion!

This to me goes back to the thread about what being saved means, and additional discussions about what the cross means.

For me, God dying on a cross was a symbol for us, not God, to show us his love and to show that in the face of evil, God loves us and would/did die for us, and it shows the forgiveness, and nonviolence inherent in God/love.

It shows that Jesus is reconciling all to God.

If after the cross 2000 years ago, people continue to be saved through fiery trials on the Earth in this lifetime, it is the same IMO as whatever purification occurs in the next lifetime.

Also scriptures:

1 Corinthians
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Luke
And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

So salvation/reconciliation/perfection is obtained as a process that started with the cross and ends with the "all in all."

And to counter the argument, God losing even one person IMO diminishes the cross much more than UR. UR IMO is the fullness of the gospel and the full understanding of the cross, not a diminishing of it.

[Ross]

There are those who say that if all are saved even after death it diminishes the power of the cross.

Not yet their time to grasp the truth. Not yet awake so not yet aware. The work of the cross was absolute.
Interesting how some religions talk about absolution, but have their eyes covered so they do not see until Christ removes the blinders.

. A refinement fire would reduce Christ's role on the cross as meaningless since the whole point of Christ going to the cross to begin with was to redeem and wash people's sins. 

Until coming to the truth I was effectively minimising the sacrifice by thinking I had to do more to be saved- fear of rejection and self-centredness was causing sever doubts.
I.M.O the refinement burns away the chaff/rubbish/dregs to have nothing remain but the truth- Christ's work was/is complete.
Paul talking how things were hidden  until the appointed time, for me, highlights there must be some plan which is only revealed to us as individuals at out own time. ergo God's work, not mans'. His love never fails.

[marie glen]

We are all undergoing refinement.. that after death refinement differs, is one theory.. I think Judgment 'Day' lasts approx. 500 years (due to the spacing of the fall holy days/Lev 23). And I think the refinement process will be the same for those who rise after the millennium, as we - sinners of all ranges - experience it now. (If God chooses, who believes when, why would HE be more stringent w/ those He chose not to believe now? Of course to support this the verse(s) about God choosing will be needed. Short list below..

Jesus said He will draw all to Him (i.e., to the cross) John 12:32. That He is able to do so, in no way diminishes the cross. Nor does it diminish (nor insult) God's POWER (including, to save), nor does it diminish the glory and utter perfection & purity of God's character, nor of His attributes, which character and attributes/POWER have no limit.

I suppose it is like a hero diving in the ocean to save people who are drowning. If he saves all who are in danger of drowning, how is that less than saving only one or two? Great as saving the one or two, why is saving all thought to be less? :faint:
---------------------

“but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:23-24)

(Jesus said)  “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:44)

-----------------------------------
All until "drawn" are dead in their sins (Eph. 2:1), “hostile in mind” towards God (Col. 1:21), possess a “depraved” (1 Tim. 6:3-5), “futile” (Eph. 4:17) and “defiled” mind (Titus 1:15), do not seek God (Rom. 3:10-12), are unable to submit themselves to God’s ways (Rom. 8:6-7), see the plan of salvation as foolish (1 Cor. 1:18), and cannot understand God’s message (1 Cor. 2:14).

But!
“There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man” (John 1:9)

[jabcat]

For me, God dying on a cross was a symbol for us.. and it shows...the nonviolence inherent in God/love.

I believe the cross accomplished much..more than we can probably fathom. 

I believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins.  That when we, by faith He gives us, receive the sacrifice he offered, then we can have for-ever life and escape the righteous judgment (scripture - "wrath") of God the Father.  On the cross, Jesus voluntarily bore our sins. He sacrificed himself and did demonstrate the greatest love of all.  I believe according to scripture, it's on/through the cross that we are redeemed, and it is where our sin debt to God is canceled ("it is finished" - completed, paid in full).   

He laid his life down for us, John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."

Reconciled to God, Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Justified us, Rom. 5:18,  "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

He died to sin, Rom. 6:8, "For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."

Died for our sins, 1 Cor. 15:3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."

He became sin, 2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

He finished the atonement, John 19:30, "When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit."

Reconciled Jew and Gentile, Eph. 2:16, "and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."

Reconciled all things, Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."

Canceled out our sin debt, Col. 2:14, "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Rendered the Devil Powerless, Heb. 2:14, "Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."

Brought in the New Covenant, Heb. 9:15-16, "And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it."

He redeemed us, 1 Pet. 1:18-19, " knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."

Bore our sin, 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Died for sins, 1 Pet. 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."

Propitiated our sins, 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

[JamesH]

I like this quote from Hope Beyond Hell:

"Unbelievers will have their opportunity in the coming age or ages as God brings the cross upon them through purposeful judgment."

I like it because it means that the Cross was not only sufficient in life but also beyond. Eventually God will bring the truth of the Cross to the unbelievers once Judgment has been finished and the refinement has done its job that they will no longer be unbelievers but believers and God will be All in All. The sins of man have been paid for in life and in death.

Does anyone agree with me on this?

[jabcat]

I like this quote from Hope Beyond Hell:

"Unbelievers will have their opportunity in the coming age or ages as God brings the cross upon them through purposeful judgment."

I like it because it means that the Cross was not only sufficient in life but also beyond. Eventually God will bring the truth of the Cross to the unbelievers once Judgment has been finished and the refinement has done its job that they will no longer be unbelievers but believers and God will be All in All. The sins of man have been paid for in life and in death.

Does anyone agree with me on this?

Thank you for clarifying this issue/discussion.  Yes that's what I believe.     Anything and everything in that regard is tied to the cross, this age, or the next.  Even any discipline, correction, punishment - LOF experience, etc. - still leads to a recognition of Jesus as Lord and Savior/Saver.  Crucified, risen again. 

I've been thinking of J.Preston Eby's LOF series, where he talks about God doing whatever it takes to break our stubborn will - this age for the elect, next age for all.  And how that brings us all to the foot of the cross.  Every knee bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[Ross]

I like it because it means that the Cross was not only sufficient in life but also beyond.

Amen!

Eph 2;7 " That  in the on-coming ages He might point out the surpassing riches of His favour in graciousness upon us,
              in Christ Jesus."

Seems to point out that significant things will be happening in the "coming" Ages.

Eventually God will bring the truth of the Cross to the unbelievers once Judgment has been finished and the refinement has done its job that they will no longer be unbelievers but believers and God will be All in All.

Amen! COMPLETELY His work.
Can the pot say to the potter, ' this is why I was made?'
Man tries to do that very thing.
Fortunately greater is He that is/will be in us all.
Christ was 100% successful- just that there is heaps more to come- ergo the game is not over yet.

[marie glen]

Amen! :iagree: I believe awesome ages are indicated in the scripture..

I like this quote from Hope Beyond Hell:

"Unbelievers will have their opportunity in the coming age or ages as God brings the cross upon them through purposeful judgment."

I like it because it means that the Cross was not only sufficient in life but also beyond. Eventually God will bring the truth of the Cross to the unbelievers once Judgment has been finished and the refinement has done its job that they will no longer be unbelievers but believers and God will be All in All. The sins of man have been paid for in life and in death.

Does anyone agree with me on this?

Absolutely! And I believe Christian Universalism/Universal Reconciliation is all over, and throughout God's Word! :gsmile:

[JamesH]

That's why I love Universalism. It glorifies the Cross in this life and the next. ECT and CI/Annihilationism can't do that. We proclaim total victory of the Cross to anyone as it states in the Bible. ECT and CI/Annihilationism make the Cross as a failure therefore God as a failure.

[GodIsLove]

That's why I love Universalism. It glorifies the Cross in this life and the next. ECT and CI/Annihilationism can't do that. We proclaim total victory of the Cross to anyone as it states in the Bible. ECT and CI/Annihilationism make the Cross as a failure therefore God as a failure.

Yes!

[GodIsLove]

Jabcat,

I believe the cross means many many more things than what was in my post, and you editing it down to one point to respond to me is sorta not giving my post or opinion credit IMO.

I was just putting a couple of the many things that the cross means to me, and yes I agree it goes beyond what we can comprehend in some respects and I could list many more things that the cross means to me, both through what the Bible says and what I have thought/heard/read/feel led to believe in addition to (not in opposition of) the scriptures.

The scriptural quotes were a good addition to the discussion if I didn't get the feeling you were attempting to contradict my thoughts.

[jabcat]

I believe the cross means many many more things than what was in my post,

Good.   :thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

 :thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

An interesting article:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/why-did-jesus-die.html

[jabcat]

It's interesting.  Of course much I agree with, the quoted scriptures are powerful, some of his conclusions I do not agree with.  Some interpretations, to me, I think he stretches beyond believability.  As you say, interesting article though. 

I personally believe Christ's literal death on the literal cross, as explicitly prophesied in scripture (Isaiah+) purchased our salvation, fulfilled the law and its requirements, paid the sin debt - "it is finished", paid in full - and so much more.

I also believe many of the other things Mr. Adams states also are important, i.e., Christ's life, other aspects of what taking up the cross means, etc., also apply.  However, I suspect when these things are often talked about it, including Mr. Adams' article, too much "one thing and not the other", "only this aspect/throw out the other" may occur.  I believe, again, it's a vast issue and probably can't be fully explained or experienced in one article.  Or maybe even whole books.   :2c:

[GodIsLove]

It's interesting.  Of course much I agree with, the quoted scriptures are powerful, some of his conclusions I do not agree with.  Some interpretations, to me, I think he stretches beyond believability.  As you say, interesting article though. 

I personally believe Christ's literal death on the literal cross, as explicitly prophesied in scripture (Isaiah+) purchased our salvation, fulfilled the law and its requirements, paid the sin debt - "it is finished", paid in full - and so much more.

I also believe many of the other things Mr. Adams states also are important, i.e., Christ's life, other aspects of what taking up the cross means, etc., also apply.  However, I suspect when these things are often talked about it, including Mr. Adams' article, too much "one thing and not the other", "only this aspect/throw out the other" may occur.  I believe, again, it's a vast issue and probably can't be fully explained or experienced in one article.  Or maybe even whole books.   :2c:

Yes, I think this is a common human habit—-once we think an idea or find an aspect of truth we think it's "this and nothing else" or your words of "one thing and not the other" but then someone else finds another aspect of truth and thinks nothing else is...when in fact many things can be true IF they all can be part of a bigger picture of truth...they don't contradict each other but provide fullness to the truth.

[lastpost]

An interesting article:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/why-did-jesus-die.html

"The physician prescribes a remedy for his patient, but not instead of him. Christ "died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15: 3), but not instead of them. He died "the just for the unjust," but it does not necessarily follow from this statement, as many think, that he died instead of the unjust. "He bore our sins," but in what capacity? as an associate, or as a substitute?"

Agreed, an interesting read, although I can sense that the concept put forth could sharply divide opinion. I am of the above opinion in general, but I can see how this could lead to crossing the Site borders regarding various points, such as: "What did Christ die for and how Christ's death affected the world", and "How was the Sacred Record compiled and revealed to man over the ages".