It seems that a lot of people can't explain the answers to the simplest questions about Christianity. I would be one of those people who can't find an answer to some of them.
So, how exactly did the lord & savior jesus "save" mankind? I'm looking for technical details on how and also goes along with scripture.
So any explanation, I believe, should make sense with the following:
- Why people in paradise did not go to heaven until jesus was in the process of being resurrected back to life?
- Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?
- Why you become a new creation when you are "in" christ?
- The purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.
- How a believer can commit the sin of no longer believing or lusting/hating anything if they cannot sin?
- If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time? (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)
- Why are people in heaven incapable of committing sin unlike the angels that rebelled?
- Why do people in heaven not desire to sin?
- How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?
- Why did Jesus need to sacrifice himself and raise himself from the dead?
Hi Nes,
I don't have all the answers...
QuoteWhy people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?
QuoteThe purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.
Personally I think being forgiven and believing are 2 different things.
The wages of sin is, was and always will be death. However Jesus payed that bill. Without that the dead would be very dead for enternity. But that doesn't mean we don't have to believe. UR people thing that everybody will at some point of time believe.
QuoteIf believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time? (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)
Believers still sin. The only exception was Jesus. Even the saints can and will be decieved by satan. Saints certainly are believers. Perhaps even a higher order of believers.
QuoteWhy do people in heaven not desire to sin?
If I take myself as an example teh only conclusion can be that I'm not longer me...
QuoteWhy did Jesus need to be sacrificed instead of murdered?
Just the way things are. God decided only sacrificed blood can clean away sins. Blood by murder doesn't. Many things surrounding His crucifixion are the same as regular sheep sacrifice.
QuoteHow the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?
I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will :punish: me if so; but I think His resurrection is not what gives a new heart. It was His pure life followed by sacrifice that gives a new heart. His resurrection was just an example of what the result of a pure heart is.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Hi Nes,
I don't have all the answers...
And you still don't have all the answers with 8300 posts??
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Personally I think being forgiven and believing are 2 different things.
The wages of sin is, was and always will be death. However Jesus payed that bill. Without that the dead would be very dead for enternity. But that doesn't mean we don't have to believe. UR people thing that everybody will at some point of time believe.
I was talking about when jesus forgave people while he was walking on earth. What was the point of that if the forgiveness had zero effect on whether or not somebody would go to heaven right after they died? (Matthew 9:2-8, Mark 2:1-12, Luke 5:17-26)
I keep hearing jesus paid that bill, but how exactly was the bill paid? I'm asking for technical details on this. I think believing in some doctrine on the bible isn't good enough if you don't even know the technical details of how it works.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PMBelievers still sin. The only exception was Jesus. Even the saints can and will be decieved by satan. Saints certainly are believers. Perhaps even a higher order of believers.
I agree that believers do still sin. romans 6:5-7 ESV says
We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Just the way things are. God decided only sacrificed blood can clean away sins. Blood by murder doesn't. Many things surrounding His crucifixion are the same as regular sheep sacrifice.
I do not accept the idea that it works just because god deciding sacrificed blood can clean away sins. God follows the letter of the law so the process needs to legitimately "take away" sins. By the way, how do you get "crucified"/sacrificed with an animal? (Hebrews 10:1-4) seems to say that there is a reminder of sins done in the past and animal sacrifice can't make someone "perfect" or cleanse their mind from evil desires so it basically had no effect whether or not someone went to heaven.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PMI could be wrong and I'm sure someone will :punish: me if so; but I think His resurrection is not what gives a new heart. It was His pure life followed by sacrifice that gives a new heart. His resurrection was just an example of what the result of a pure heart is.
Romans 6:5-7
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin....Ezekiel 36:26 says he'll give a new heart and spirit.
John 3:1-7 says you must be born again.
Hebrews 9:15-17 for there to be a testament requires a death of the testator?
So why do you need to be born again (spiritually) if jesus knew our future sins and took them away?
How were we crucified with him?
Quote from: nes on April 18, 2011, 06:21:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
Just the way things are. God decided only sacrificed blood can clean away sins. Blood by murder doesn't. Many things surrounding His crucifixion are the same as regular sheep sacrifice.
I do not accept the idea that it works just because god deciding sacrificed blood can clean away sins. God follows the letter of the law so the process needs to legitimately "take away" sins.
God decided how sin can be taken away by writing the law.
BTW animal sacrifice covered sins and Jesus' sacrifice took it away.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
God decided how sin can be taken away by writing the law.
BTW animal sacrifice covered sins and Jesus' sacrifice took it away.
I think that the law is based on what's right and what's wrong. What violates the law is sin, which is evil and not love. So would god declare something evil as love?
Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,
it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Hi nes...My take is we attribute a lot of things to Jesus when we weren't supposed to.Jesus was an example of walking in the kingdom and everything that comes with it and this includes,sin having no more effect and the carnel nature being overcome.Jesus in laymen terms tried to explain it and we twisted it so we could rationalize it to our religuos mindsets and traditions.
I'm beginning to see that complete spiritual insite is not for everyone...and God wanted it that way and that is why we are commanded to love above everything else.If you love everything will fall into place,this is what Jesus was trying to say in the sermon mount.
We all try to get closer to God in our own strength(carnel thought) when we all should be resting in our religous endeavours.Ask questions but keep the mill stone from getting to heavy.
So my :2c: Jesus is the example of how we all will be saved
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: onlytruth on April 18, 2011, 08:34:08 PM
Hi nes...My take is we attribute a lot of things to Jesus when we weren't supposed to.Jesus was an example of walking in the kingdom and everything that comes with it and this includes,sin having no more effect and the carnel nature being overcome.Jesus in laymen terms tried to explain it and we twisted it so we could rationalize it to our religuos mindsets and traditions.
I'm twisting scripture in the attempt to make it logically sensible as a whole, but I really do not carry on traditions and try to stay away from religious mindsets.
Quote from: onlytruth on April 18, 2011, 08:34:08 PM
I'm beginning to see that complete spiritual insite is not for everyone...and God wanted it that way and that is why we are commanded to love above everything else.If you love everything will fall into place,this is what Jesus was trying to say in the sermon mount.
We all try to get closer to God in our own strength(carnel thought) when we all should be resting in our religous endeavours.Ask questions but keep the mill stone from getting to heavy.
So my :2c: Jesus is the example of how we all will be saved
blessings :icon_king:
Isaiah 64:6 niv 2011
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;... I believe that understanding the process of how jesus "saves" mankind is important to discover the truth on who would go to heaven and who doesn't. I do have tons of hope in me and do not worry at all about going to hades. It doesn't matter how many "good" things somebody does, they'll still go to hades for committing evil and anyone with a sliver of evil won't make it to heaven.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Jesus' sacrifice took it away.
That is the summary;
works or the law has nothing to do with who is saved. It's the blood of Christ applied individually to those who call on Jesus for salvation. The ecclesia will be called by the Holy Spirit to do so in this life, the rest will bow and confess prior to the consummation, when God becomes All in All. I believe when God looks at the saved individual He sees the applied blood of His Son. It begins and ends with faith in Him, given by God to believe - all according to His timing.
The focal point is the cross - "with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him" Ephesians 2:10
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/ - search Dora Von Assen under authors (GOD'S UNFAILING LOVE REVEALED IN THE CROSS")
Quote from: jabcat on April 18, 2011, 09:29:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
Jesus' sacrifice took it away.
That is the summary;
works or the law has nothing to do with who is saved.
I don't think that's entirely right.
QuoteIt's the blood of Christ applied individually to those who call on Jesus for salvation.
And how exactly that blood got it's saving power?
Imo because Jesus lived 100% by the original/intended laws. (at least among other things)
I'm not talking about the process of how God "set it up". The bottom line though is, now we're saved by grace not works.
there will be judging of works, but for those who have believed on Jesus as their Savior, the law of works has nothing to do with their salvation.
IMO, anything else is distorting the gospel, mixing law and grace - which Paul, revealing the New Covenant said is a grave mistake.
I think you don't understand what I wrote.
How exactly got the New Convenant it's power?
I believe Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to the Jews, dealing with the fulfillment of the OC and ushering in the next age - the age of grace. Then His death and resurrection is for all mankind. The Law is fulfilled.
Quote from: jabcat on April 18, 2011, 09:43:04 PMThe Law is fulfilled.
That's the answer.
Without (following) the law there would not have been salvation.
I agree with the post you just made, while I was writing this;
Yes, I understood. I was addressing "I don't think this is entirely right" re: "works or law has nothing to do with who is saved".
Then I addressed the rest of it by saying "I'm not talking about the process of how God set it up" - which, IMO, is a different topic.
1) how we're saved. by grace, not works or the law
2) how did the blood get its power, how did God decide/set it up. I'm not sure, that's a complicated (probably) disputable topic, as I don't believe it's clear in the scriptures. However, addressing #1, I believe it's very clear in the scriptures, so we shouldn't mix law and grace. :2c:
Anyway, that's my understanding and strong belief. I understand many may see it differently. :bigGrin:
Yeah, it got a bit messed up you editing and deleting posts when I was at practically the same time replying those messages. :winkgrin:
Again:
There are old covenant laws that tell us how sin is covered by blood sacrifice. It only covered sins. It was not perfect. Main offerings where done just at Passover.
I think it's important to look at the exact rules for a sacrifice. The most obvious is that the lambs must be inspected for 4 days in row prior to the sacrifice. Jesus presented Himself in the Temple during those days. Blood must be sprinkled in the Temple. Judas did that. The animals must be slaughtered at a certain time. When Jesus cried out all the sheep cried out too because they where slaughtered at that time too. Etc.
It's my belief that if Jesus had missed one step of the ritual as commanded by the law He would have been just a nice guy. Not a Saviour. Likely He wouldn't have been resurrected Himself.
So that's why I say without law no salvation.
:2c:
Quote"I'm not talking about the process of how God set it up" - which, IMO, is a different topic.
You can't have without the other.
Without the law there would have been no sinners.
But with the law strict following of the law is needed for salvation.
sorry, maybe i actually didn't fully understand your intent. Language (semantics, inflection, intent/meaning) is a beautiful thing. :laughing7:
if you're saying the law had to be fulfilled, perfect works accomplished and that Jesus did so, I understand and agree.
Then the next step is the death and life of The Perfect Sacrifice for our salvation - not our works, but His. :thumbsup: how that ties together.
No worries James. One day you can return home. Europe (a godess) :icon_jokercolor:
Just like Adam and Eve lived somewhere and where kicked out; so the American left Europe :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 10:25:28 PM
No worries James. One day you can return home. Europe (a godess) :icon_jokercolor:
Just like Adam and Eve lived somewhere and where kicked out; so the American left Europe :laughing7:
Where does the Cherokee part of me go? :mshock:
Quote from: jabcat on April 19, 2011, 12:01:33 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 18, 2011, 10:25:28 PM
No worries James. One day you can return home. Europe (a godess) :icon_jokercolor:
Just like Adam and Eve lived somewhere and where kicked out; so the American left Europe :laughing7:
Where does the Cherokee part of me go? :mshock:
Israel. Indians are Isrealites that crossed the continents during Peleg.
Quote from: wwWithout the law there would have been no sinners.
Yeah, you're right, but--
The problem isn't sin. It's death.
Once Adam brought death upon all creation, God needed to bring in the law to redeem it.
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
"impute"1. To relate to a particular cause or source;
attribute the fault or responsibility to: imputed the rocket failure to a faulty gasket; kindly imputed my clumsiness to inexperience.
Greek
G1677
ἐλλογέω
ellogeō
el-log-eh'-o
From G1722 and G3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: -
impute, put on account.Romans 5:14
Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 09:24:32 AM
Quote from: wwWithout the law there would have been no sinners.
Yeah, you're right, but--
The problem isn't sin. It's death.
The problem is sin. Death is the result.
The wages of sin is death.
Without the law there is no sin.
QuoteOnce Adam brought death upon all creation, God needed to bring in the law to redeem it.
God brought in
more laws.
Adam had (at least) one law. ==> Not eating from that tree.
He broke that law and
that brought death.
well I toss this about in my head. Did Adam sin? Eve was the one in transgression because she was deceived. So what does this mean--
Timothy 2:13-15
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
If God says don't eat from this poison apple or you will die, is that a law or just good advice?
It was death that reigned from Adam to Moses, not sin because sin was not imputed until the law. If sin is not imputed, who pays the wages? No debt, no payment. But still death reigned. Everyone paid because of Adam. They couldn't break a law [sin] because there was no law.
QuoteDid Adam sin?
Yes.
QuoteEve was the one in transgression because she was deceived.
That has nothing to do with the fact that Adam sinned.
QuoteIf God says don't eat from this poison apple or you will die, is that a law or just good advice?
The ten commandments are the ten suggestions?
The laws of Moses also were just good advice.
Advice #1: Don't blaspheme or you will be stoned to death....
Wages of sin is death. Adam died so he has sinned.
QuoteIt was death that reigned from Adam to Moses
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'Quotenot sin because sin was not imputed until the law.
More sin was imputed as more laws where made.
If Adam did nothing wrong=mis the mark=sin then why he died?
If he did nothing wrong why was he kicked out of the garden?
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 11:19:48 AM
well I toss this about in my head. Did Adam sin? Eve was the one in transgression because she was deceived. So what does this mean--
Timothy 2:13-15
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
If God says don't eat from this poison apple or you will die, is that a law or just good advice?
It was death that reigned from Adam to Moses, not sin because sin was not imputed until the law. If sin is not imputed, who pays the wages? No debt, no payment. But still death reigned. Everyone paid because of Adam. They couldn't break a law [sin] because there was no law.
:icon_flower :HI again Molly :icon_flower:
Do you think Paul again is making a distinction between The WOMAN= Church = Eve to be in subject to the SPIRIT\Man \Christ= TEACHING A spiritual PRINCIPLE THROUGH The natural\Physical being man and WOMAN---1Ti 2:11 .[/b] and childbearing doesnt mean NATURAL CHILDREN either Molly--its the Birth of the SON[ Christ]--- as the scripture notes one moves from a CHILD under LAW to a SON\heir of FAITH-- which for mine is told Here- Behold WOMAN,your" SON""- Marys name means rebellion Right? she too is a FIGURE of the WOMAN known as OLD JERUSALEM, While NEW Jerusalem is the ""MOTHER"of us ALL
For unto us a
child is born, unto us a
son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
:icon_flower:
Let the
woman learn in silence with all subjection
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety
When the LORD spoke DO NOT- there was already a law in Motion Molly - for mine a definition of a LAW is- IF ITS VIOLATED OR BROKEN it naturally causes a direct penalty= Cause and effect ---- without a Penalty the law wouldnt be a law Just a pure recommendation
:icon_flower:
Quote from: TaffyDo you think Paul again is making a distinction between The WOMAN= Church = Eve to be in subject to the SPIRIT\Man \Christ= TEACHING A spiritual PRINCIPLE THROUGH The natural\Physical being man and WOMAN-
Yes I do. He says he's speaking in mysteries, and of Christ and the church, when he speaks of husband and wife. But, I also think he's making a point about the distinction between Adam and Eve themselves that has an independent meaning when he says one was not deceived, the other was deceived and therefore in the transgression [doesn't have to have anything to do with man and woman.].
Example, if the police order me not to go into a burning building, and I rush in anyway to save a life, am I breaking the law? Love covers a multitude of sins.
QuoteMarys name means rebellion Right? she too is a FIGURE of the WOMAN known as OLD JERUSALEM, While NEW Jerusalem is the ""MOTHER"of us ALL
I didn't know that. That's very cool.
Quote from: wwThat has nothing to do with the fact that Adam sinned.
QuoteWages of sin is death. Adam died so he has sinned
Ok. Let's say that Adam sinned. Now what? We have thousands of years between Adam and Moses, with no law at all. Not even the command that Adam was given because they do not have access to the garden. So--how do you break the law if there is NO law?
Paul is speaking like a lawyer when he talks about death reigning even though sin is not imputed. After Adam, it doesn't matter what you do, good or bad [by what measure?] you are still going to die. During this time, we have two types of people--those who are walking with God, calling on the Lord, and those who aren't--but all die [except for Enoch maybe].
I just think it's interesting, from a legal standpoint. If there is no law, how do I argue my client is innocent? How do I get him out of jail? How do I save his life? There is no way. Satan loves a police state where people can just disappear and be murdered at a whim.
I think there is a reason why God establishes the law before he saves them, because, like you said, now he can do things under the law to save them which no one can argue against.
I'm not putting this very well, but maybe you can see what I'm trying to say lol. If the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all, we are born into freedom, we are free, --and then, as Paul says, the law comes and we die. But, before the law was given, Death reigned.
It's more complicated than this but I'm trying to answer the question--How does Jesus save mankind? First answer is he dies in our place under the law.
QuoteOk. Let's say that Adam sinned. Now what? We have thousands of years between Adam and Moses, with no law at all. Not even the command that Adam was given because they do not have access to the garden. So--how do you break the law if there is NO law?
Adam sinned because he ate from the tree which was forbidden. So he broke that law. Yes you are correct that between that event and Moses there were no laws to break.
That's why sin was not imputed.
But the curse of death had already started
Quote from: wwYes you are correct that between that event and Moses there were no laws to break.
That's why sin was not imputed.
But the curse of death had already started
Here's a question for you. Aren't the wages of sin, Death? But, if there is no sin imputed, why would I die?
Something changed with the action of Adam which is bigger than the Law.
God is not rolling dice with his opponent. He's playing chess.
Wasn't Adam created as sinful flesh? (Rom. 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity.
Wouldn't Adam have sin on him even though there was no law? I think this is how Jesus saved humanity, by becoming flesh. He was resurrected from this sinful flesh and became immortal just like we will.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 19, 2011, 07:29:50 PM
Wasn't Adam created as sinful flesh? (Rom. 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity.
Wouldn't Adam have sin on him even though there was no law? I think this is how Jesus saved humanity, by becoming flesh. He was resurrected from this sinful flesh and became immortal just like we will.
CHB
I guess it depends how you read that.
Was man created subject to vanity? Or was he made subject to vanity after he was created?
"was made subject" [to vanity]
G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021;
to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient),
put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto),
be (put) in subjection (to, under),
submit self unto.Hupotasso from the two words, hupo and tasso, literally to be set [appointed, placed in position] under. Under what?
Death.
Molly, just my understanding of this but I believe man was made in sinful flesh subject to death. God said, "dust thy are and dust thy shalt return". Was man something else before he became dust? Don't know. Oh the mystery of it all. :dontknow: :happy3:
CHB
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: wwYes you are correct that between that event and Moses there were no laws to break.
That's why sin was not imputed.
But the curse of death had already started
Here's a question for you. Aren't the wages of sin, Death? But, if there is no sin imputed, why would I die?
Sin was imputed when Adam broke the law of eating of that tree.
From that point on to Moses no sin was imputed because the tree was gone.
The reason people die is because starting from that first sin the whole earth was/is cursed.
People die because of that curse that can't be undone by rightous living.
So basicly 2 things are running parallel.
Ongoing sin and the effect/curse of the first sin
:2c:
Quote from: CHB on April 19, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
Molly, just my understanding of this but I believe man was made in sinful flesh subject to death. God said, "dust thy are and dust thy shalt return". Was man something else before he became dust? Don't know. Oh the mystery of it all. :dontknow: :happy3:
CHB
Just thinking about the lottory system, CHB. You're the one that taught me about that.
Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
"partakers" [of flesh and blood]
G2841
κοινωνέω
koinōneō
koy-no-neh'-o
From G2844;
to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker.
Quote from: wwThe reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense. It doesn't really. It doesn't explain anything.
Who is this Adam that he can cause the whole world to be cursed?
Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree. She lusted, was prideful. Could it be that the flesh is the answer to the whole thing? Jesus said "the bread I give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 20, 2011, 12:11:53 AM
Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree. She lusted, was prideful. Could it be that the flesh is the answer to the whole thing? Jesus said "the bread I give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world".
CHB
yeah.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say,
his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
--Heb 10
For...
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Thought TAKING hold Birthed the sin ,so sin is manifested - its Not what Enters a Man which defiles HIM, its what COMES out-- :sigh:
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
--Heb 10
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
— James 3
Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
--Heb 2:11
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
--Heb 10:14
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
Quote from: wwThe reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense. It doesn't really. It doesn't explain anything.
The earth was cursed but it had no effect on anything?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
Quote from: wwThe reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense. It doesn't really. It doesn't explain anything.
The earth was cursed but it had no effect on anything?
In Gen 3, the serpent is cursed by God for what he has done, and the earth is cursed for what Adam has done. Two curses.
But, Adam is not cursed.
Ok.
Japan near the nuclear reactors can be seen as cursed land too. Those that live on the 'cursed ground' near the reactors will suffer regardless how good those people are.
I'm not sure if Adam was not cursed. God warned Adam not to eat from the tree or else he would die. That's a curse. Of course you could argue that it was at best a curse for 1 man instead of mankind.
Not checked it yet but many times when we read Adam the person, it should have been translated mankind (very similar words in Hebrew)
I think Jesus is the mirror image. He had a perfect life and His reward was not that He would live but that whole mankind would live.
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2011, 08:57:23 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
Quote from: wwThe reason peopel die is because starting from that first sin teh whole earth was/is cursed.
Well, you throw around a word like curse as if it makes some kind of sense. It doesn't really. It doesn't explain anything.
The earth was cursed but it had no effect on anything?
In Gen 3, the serpent is cursed by God for what he has done, and the earth is cursed for what Adam has done. Two curses.
But, Adam is not cursed.
:icon_flower:
The serpent our POWER of discernment[ judgment] beginning as a SUGGESTIVE thought in our minds= or a thought TO ENTERTAIN
Nate mentioned when eve ate the Fruit[ her discernment being IN ERROR, didnt bring forth LIFE but opened up their OWN carnal state--- they saw NOTHING other then the physical, there knowledge became earthly, as did their soul ,the eve within us lays DEAD to spirtual understanding UNTIL HE BIRTHS THE SEED HIDDEN WITHIN :icon_flower:
so the LORD curses the serpent-because of the determination of ADAM \EVE tHis ERROR OF discernment to where it belongs--- in the EARTH \DUST ONLY ABLE UNDERSTAND the literal\earthy\ CARNAL KNOWLEDGE\that which lays UNDER the natural SUN ,BUT nothing SPIRITUAL .. its this MIND, the carnal mind which LIVES off other carnal MINDS---Cursed to feed of it all its LIFE--- beware satan THE ROARING LION Roams the EARTH seeking what HE CAN devour---- :sigh:
UNDERSTANDING ONLY THAT which is Literal is the FOOD of the serpent as thats all it percieves---- Now Consider PETER once again -- he perceived with his CARNAL mind only the LITERAL , not understanding the SPIRUTAL meaning of the LORDS death--- satan wants to SIFT your AS WHEAT---
SHAKE YOU----meaning to shake what was being birthed in their New understanding through the teaching of our LORD
He also CUT with a LITERAL sword --- he trusted in HIS own STRENGTH ,carnal MIND to withstand denying HIM-- Poor peter went through the MILL but is a great example for us ALL :HeartThrob:
Christ was without sin, never everFELL into the error of discernment ---withstanding ALL the PHYSICAL\literal likened to the JEWS thrEW at HIM--- HE suffered\SUFFERS the ignorance of their \OUR EVE--- :icon_flower:
IS there a GREATER LOVE then aa MAN who lays DOWN HIS LIFE for another :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
THY WILL BE DONE MY LORD.
Self must die and vacate the THRONE of God.
Quote from: CHB on April 19, 2011, 07:29:50 PM
Wasn't Adam created as sinful flesh? (Rom. 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity.
Wouldn't Adam have sin on him even though there was no law? I think this is how Jesus saved humanity, by becoming flesh. He was resurrected from this sinful flesh and became immortal just like we will.
CHB
:thumbsup:
So everyone is so sure of who, what, when, where, how people go to heaven, hades, and the lake of fire, but not sure of why?
I think the why question needs to be solved first in order to figured out the who, what, when, where, and how. I'm still waiting for a reply.
So why do people become "saved" by "believing in" jesus?
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
QuoteSo why do people become "saved" by "believing in" jesus?
in short
But
without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
:icon_flower: the opening of the veil within the heart :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 24, 2011, 09:28:31 PM
QuoteSo why do people become "saved" by "believing in" jesus?
in short
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
:icon_flower: the opening of the veil within the heart :icon_flower:
So why does faith please god? Does it have to be faith instead of knowledge, if so why? What if people were proven by angels that god exists?
From my understanding faith is what mankind must have....knowledge belongs to the Creator and is given to those who have become worthy to see the wisdom of faith.
Quote from: nes on April 18, 2011, 09:09:54 AM
It seems that a lot of people can't explain the answers to the simplest questions about Christianity. I would be one of those people who can't find an answer to some of them.
So, how exactly did the lord & savior jesus "save" mankind? I'm looking for technical details on how and also goes along with scripture.
So any explanation, I believe, should make sense with the following:
WARNING , THIS IS ONLY MY THOUGHTS AND NOT THE THOUGHTS OF MOST MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM.....
- Why people in paradise did not go to heaven until jesus was in the process of being resurrected back to life?
Knowing nothing is peace, bliss, unseen, paradise for the system of law before rezz day.
- Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?
[/list]one side is that the unseen is a place of knowing nothing ,feeling , tasteing, hearing smelling, seeing, don't happen. IMO , judgementday happened 2011 years ago give or take. and 3 he took away all sin, ( transgression of the Law is sin) so if I choose not to follow the old system that IS DONE AWAY WITH, then I am a part of the new Life IN Christ. and never have to worry about being a sinner, sinners are law followers, ( not meeeeee ) So when he took away sin, he did, so all are in Christ now, believers and non believers
[/glow]
- Why you become a new creation when you are "in" christ?
Why, because that was His Father's Plan, and it happened 2011 years ago......
- The purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.
He forgave because it was the way of things for followers of Law, its in the tora-law, and with out believing is a false hood taught by your church and not Christ
- How a believer can commit the sin of no longer believing or lusting/hating anything if they cannot sin?
because any church today makes laws that have to be followed if you want to be right with God, or for them be a ( believer ),,, it is a man made system of what I I I call a self reenforced diluion not of God.
- If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time? (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)
because at the time of the rebuke He had not completed his mission of becoming the son of God by the things he learned, and rezz.
- Why are people in heaven incapable of committing sin unlike the angels that rebelled?
because there is too much symbolism in most of that store i.e. a messenger is just another person that brings a message , ( good or bad ) of God or Carnal delivery. In heaven is in YOU. Me and all things made of adams, and all the space inbetween... all things
- Why do people in heaven not desire to sin?
I do desire sin, but I don't use a system of Law to get my Completeness, oneness, one with God. or Limited pardon, I am jusified....
- How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?
answer in a question for only you to answer, did the childern born after Adam and Eve feel that they were bad, evil , sinner etc. ok, hint, All things got the new heart and Spirit 2011 years ago, it is just when GOD opens your mind to see Him will you feel the change
- Why did Jesus need to sacrifice himself and raise himself from the dead?
because that was the prophecy in the writings the He had to do what he did to bring all I said above.
Please understand once more, this is only my belief system.[/m]
[/size]
[/b]
I can see that :msealed:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 26, 2011, 05:01:47 AM
I can see that :msealed:
you joker :icon_joker:
:wink2:
Hi;
Why do we die?
Gal 5;17 " For the flesh covets against the Spirit, but the Spirit against the flesh for these things are opposed to one another."
vs 24 " And they who are of Christ have crucified the flesh with it's susceptibilities and covetings. If we live by Spirit let us also walk by Spirit. Let us not become vain-glorious, challenging one another, envying one another."
Flesh vs Spirit.
Gal 6;12-16 " As many as are wishing to make a good show in flesh, the same are compelling you to get circumcised only for the cross of Jesus Christ that they may not be suffering persecution! For not even they who are getting circumcised are observing the law, but are wishing you to be circumcised, that they may boast themselves in your flesh.
However, Far be it with me to be boasting save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ whereby a world has been crucified to me and I to a world: for neither circumcision is anything nor uncircumcision but a new creation; and as many as shall walk by this rule peace and mercy be upon them."
That is the struggle. If we live by the flesh we are under the law and suffer many consequences. If we live by the spirit we know about the flesh and are confident that Christ paid our price in full and we are learning what life is all about. His plan is perfect and He shows us bit by bit so that we may grow in grace and knowledge. If we focus on this age without knowing about the coming age then there is no hope. This age is a phase of development. Just like ion the army where scouts are sent out before the main troops come through, the apostles were sent out as scouts. We are being collected for the next skirmish. Then the troops will come in behind us.
Our Father the General lets everyone know the mission when it is their turn to know the next phase.
Is the Father greater than the devil and the flesh?
1 Cor 1;27 "The foolish things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame them who are wise, and the weak things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame the things that are mighty, and the low-born things of the world has God chosen and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are so that NO FLESH should boast before God."
On the spiritual encouragement side of things;
Eph 3;3-6 " By way of revelation was made known to me the sacred secret, even as I wrote before in brief, regarding which you can by reading perceive my discernment in the sacred secret[mystery] of the Christ,- which had not been made known to sons of men in other generations as it has NOW been revealed by His apostles and prophets in Spirit;
that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs and a joint body and joint partakers of the promise IN Christ Jesus through means of the glad-message."
By the cross Christ has paid our debt in full.
We are part of the new creation.
His love covers us for ALL our mistakes and learning process.
We will be above angels.
Isn't that good news?
Quote from: Ross on April 26, 2011, 07:59:08 AM
Hi;
Why do we die?
Gal 5;17 " For the flesh covets against the Spirit, but the Spirit against the flesh for these things are opposed to one another."
vs 24 " And they who are of Christ have crucified the flesh with it's susceptibilities and covetings. If we live by Spirit let us also walk by Spirit. Let us not become vain-glorious, challenging one another, envying one another."
Flesh vs Spirit.
Gal 6;12-16 " As many as are wishing to make a good show in flesh, the same are compelling you to get circumcised only for the cross of Jesus Christ that they may not be suffering persecution! For not even they who are getting circumcised are observing the law, but are wishing you to be circumcised, that they may boast themselves in your flesh.
However, Far be it with me to be boasting save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ whereby a world has been crucified to me and I to a world: for neither circumcision is anything nor uncircumcision but a new creation; and as many as shall walk by this rule peace and mercy be upon them."
That is the struggle. If we live by the flesh we are under the law and suffer many consequences. If we live by the spirit we know about the flesh and are confident that Christ paid our price in full and we are learning what life is all about. His plan is perfect and He shows us bit by bit so that we may grow in grace and knowledge. If we focus on this age without knowing about the coming age then there is no hope. This age is a phase of development. Just like ion the army where scouts are sent out before the main troops come through, the apostles were sent out as scouts. We are being collected for the next skirmish. Then the troops will come in behind us.
Our Father the General lets everyone know the mission when it is their turn to know the next phase.
Is the Father greater than the devil and the flesh?
1 Cor 1;27 "The foolish things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame them who are wise, and the weak things of the world has God chosen that He might put to shame the things that are mighty, and the low-born things of the world has God chosen and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are so that NO FLESH should boast before God."
On the spiritual encouragement side of things;
Eph 3;3-6 " By way of revelation was made known to me the sacred secret, even as I wrote before in brief, regarding which you can by reading perceive my discernment in the sacred secret[mystery] of the Christ,- which had not been made known to sons of men in other generations as it has NOW been revealed by His apostles and prophets in Spirit;
that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs and a joint body and joint partakers of the promise IN Christ Jesus through means of the glad-message."
By the cross Christ has paid our debt in full.
We are part of the new creation.
His love covers us for ALL our mistakes and learning process.
We will be above angels.
Isn't that good news?
:thumbsup: Loved that. Thanks.
17 That the Christ may dwell, through means of your faith, in your hearts, in love, having become rooted and founded, 18 In order that ye may be mighty enough to grasp firmly, with all the saints,--what is the breadth and length and depth and height, 19 To get to know, also, the knowledge-surpassing, love of the Christ,--in order that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God: 20 Now, unto him who is able to do, above all things, exceeding abundantly above the things which we ask or conceive,--according to the power which doth energise itself within us,-- 21 Unto him, be the glory, in the assembly, and in Christ Jesus--unto all the generations of the age of ages; Amen:--
--Eph 3
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
WARNING , THIS IS ONLY MY THOUGHTS AND NOT THE THOUGHTS OF MOST MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM.....
- Why people in paradise did not go to heaven until jesus was in the process of being resurrected back to life?
Knowing nothing is peace, bliss, unseen, paradise for the system of law before rezz day.
That makes no sense, rephrase? Paradise was not for the system of law, it was for believers. Paradise was located in hades.
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- Why people will still go to hades after jesus died (until judgement day) if jesus supposedly "took away" all future sin?
[/list]one side is that the unseen is a place of knowing nothing ,feeling , tasteing, hearing smelling, seeing, don't happen. IMO , judgementday happened 2011 years ago give or take. and 3 he took away all sin, ( transgression of the Law is sin) so if I choose not to follow the old system that IS DONE AWAY WITH, then I am a part of the new Life IN Christ. and never have to worry about being a sinner, sinners are law followers, ( not meeeeee ) So when he took away sin, he did, so all are in Christ now, believers and non believers
There is so many things wrong here that I don't know where to begin. Jesus did not change a letter of the law. By "old system" I think you mean the law. So following the law in the old testament did not get anyone out of hades. Everyone during the old testament time was only righteous by faith, not by the good/bad things they did. Jesus did not take away all sin. If he had done so then satan wouldn't be going to the lake of fire and people wouldn't be going to hades after they die. Pretty much the only major things that changed before and after jesus's resurrection is that believers go directly to heaven after they die instead of paradise and it's much easier to have faith in god by believing the god in flesh form, jesus.
You said that if you choose to not follow the old system then your part of the new life in christ and you also said that everyone is in christ. So what if someone does choose to follow the old system, you apparently contradict yourself. You can't say everyone is in christ and say that those who follow the old system aren't in christ at the same time. All those verses that say unbelievers are condemned in the new testament don't mean anything?
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- Why you become a new creation when you are "in" christ?
Why, because that was His Father's Plan, and it happened 2011 years ago......
Why was it his father's plan then?
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- The purpose of jesus forgiving anyone (before his death) if nobody is able to go to heaven without believing.
He forgave because it was the way of things for followers of Law, its in the tora-law, and with out believing is a false hood taught by your church and not Christ
LOL, the law is much more strict than the torah law. Having the slightest hate, lust, love of objects on earth, etc... makes you liable for everything. Hate is considered murder and lust is adultery.
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- How a believer can commit the sin of no longer believing or lusting/hating anything if they cannot sin?
because any church today makes laws that have to be followed if you want to be right with God, or for them be a ( believer ),,, it is a man made system of what I I I call a self reenforced diluion not of God.
Not true, not all doctrines say that you need to do any rituals or follow any rules to get to heaven. The way to get to heaven is by faith alone.
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- If believers are sinless on earth, why were the disciples rebuked by jesus from time to time? (Luke 9:46-48, Luke 9:49-50, Luke 9:51-56, Mark 8:33, & many more)
because at the time of the rebuke He had not completed his mission of becoming the son of God by the things he learned, and rezz.
He had not completed his mission of becoming the son of god? You mean he wasn't the "son of god" yet? People in OT were deemed righteous by faith, so these disciples had faith in jesus, who was and still is the god in flesh form.
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- Why are people in heaven incapable of committing sin unlike the angels that rebelled?
because there is too much symbolism in most of that store i.e. a messenger is just another person that brings a message , ( good or bad ) of God or Carnal delivery. In heaven is in YOU. Me and all things made of adams, and all the space inbetween... all things
Doesn't make sense again.
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- Why do people in heaven not desire to sin?
I do desire sin, but I don't use a system of Law to get my Completeness, oneness, one with God. or Limited pardon, I am jusified....
So your saying that the law doesn't effect you anymore so even if you do evil things that doesn't mean your sinning? Your gift of "salvation" can only be received after death. The holy spirit is a deposit that guarantees this.
Ephesians 1:14"who is a
deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. "
A deposit means that you don't have inheritance yet. Otherwise it wouldn't be a deposit guaranteeing anything.
Nothing impure will ever be allowed in heaven and sinful actions won't be done in heaven, the law is ALWAYS in effect and never changes, you cannot do sinful actions in heaven.
rev 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. "
By impure, it means a heart that desires to lust, hate, love things on earth, etc... Wants to sin/break the law in any way.
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- How the sacrifice/resurrection allows people to get a new heart and spirit?
answer in a question for only you to answer, did the childern born after Adam and Eve feel that they were bad, evil , sinner etc. ok, hint, All things got the new heart and Spirit 2011 years ago, it is just when GOD opens your mind to see Him will you feel the change
All things got a new heart and spirit 2011 years ago? Really? How do you explain the many many warnings about going to hades? Why would they bother with all the warnings if ppl went to heaven if they do not believe? If all things got a new heart and spirit 2011 years ago, why are there going to be people emptied out of hades to the great white throne?
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 26, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
- Why did Jesus need to sacrifice himself and raise himself from the dead?
because that was the prophecy in the writings the He had to do what he did to bring all I said above.
Please understand once more, this is only my belief system.
[/size]
It seems you can't explain why. Why would there be a prophecy in the writing that he had to do what he did?
Yes, this is your belief system, and you are probably the only person on planet earth that believes it because it contradicts the bible.
[/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]
QuoteParadise was located in hades.
Really? :winkgrin:
QuoteWhy was it his father's plan then?
What kind of question is that? Why is water wet?
QuoteWhy would there be a prophecy in the writing that he had to do what he did?
Why not? Are you here to learn something or just ask questions that never can be answered?
Why laws, prophesies or even creation exists no one can answer. They do exist. And those prophesies are pointing to Jesus and what He did.
QuoteNothing impure will ever be allowed in heaven and sinful actions won't be done in heaven, the law is ALWAYS in effect and never changes, you cannot do sinful actions in heaven.
Name one person, not being Jesus, that can enter heaven. You can't because
nobody (besides Jesus) is worthy entering heaven.
Will heaven be empty for ever? If not how people can enter heaven. Think about that.
Believing in Jesus is only part of the answer. All believers are still sinners when they die. With your reasoning they continue their sinful actions and therefore have no chance ever entering heaven.
Understand that little puzzle and you have the answer to many of your questions.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2011, 12:32:19 PM
QuoteParadise was located in hades.
Really? :winkgrin:
Yes, really.
How do you explain this?
Acts 2:27
http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm)
Yes, the word used is hades http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/86.htm (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/86.htm)
paradise can't be in heaven Luke 23:43
Luke 16:19-31
Seems that there is a great chasm between the believers and unbelievers in hades.
26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2011, 12:32:19 PM
QuoteWhy was it his father's plan then?
What kind of question is that? Why is water wet?
That question is no different than if I asked someone why they plan to move to another state. By the way, water is wet (viscous) because of dipole-dipole interactions, hydrogen bonds, and London dispersion forces. So every question appears to be answerable if you have the information on hand.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2011, 12:32:19 PM
QuoteWhy would there be a prophecy in the writing that he had to do what he did?
Why not? Are you here to learn something or just ask questions that never can be answered?
Why laws, prophesies or even creation exists no one can answer. They do exist. And those prophesies are pointing to Jesus and what He did.
So nobody can answer why jesus would save us? Nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades? :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2011, 12:32:19 PM
QuoteNothing impure will ever be allowed in heaven and sinful actions won't be done in heaven, the law is ALWAYS in effect and never changes, you cannot do sinful actions in heaven.
Name one person, not being Jesus, that can enter heaven. You can't because nobody (besides Jesus) is worthy entering heaven.
Will heaven be empty for ever? If not how people can enter heaven. Think about that.
Believing in Jesus is only part of the answer. All believers are still sinners when they die. With your reasoning they continue their sinful actions and therefore have no chance ever entering heaven.
Understand that little puzzle and you have the answer to many of your questions.
[/quote]
So you still don't get why believers are called god's children.
2 timothy 2:11 - died with jesus and live with him?
Romans 6:8
2 Corinthians 4:10 - always carrying in the body the death of Jesus,
so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.
2 Corinthians 4:11
So how does jesus save us?
if you're not getting what you're looking for, why don't you tell us what you think?
believing Jesus saves, God decreed it, we're saved by faith given by God to believe on Jesus, in the final analysis is enough for me. Further details are a bonus.
do you have something beneficial to add?
p.s. rightly divide Jesus' earthly ministry to the Jews prior to the cross and their judgment in 70 AD with the free gift of grace post-cross. The rich man and lazarus was a parable about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. Jesus has bridged the chasm, but the Jewish nation as a whole are still unable to see it, as their veil has not been lifted. They will not be given the faith and sight to believe until "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved". Rom 11:26
nes,
Your questions have been answered, you just can't see them for the smog and the smoke from the hell fire issues that has your eyes blinded.
You asked this. So you still don't get why believers are called god's children.
We are called God's children because he is our Father and we are all of the family of God (Eph. 3:15).
You said "nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades". The answer is, because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Everyone of us has sinned and all are in sinful flesh, therefore all will die and go to the grave/hades.
You said, "explain (Acts 2:27) " Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
David talking to God said, that God wouldn't leave him in the grave, neither would he allow Jesus to rot or decay but would resurrect him before he decayed.
You keep asking how Jesus saves us? The question should be, how DID Jesus save us? Jesus saved us by living a perfect life. By dying and being resurrected he guarentees us the same destiny. Our sins were imputed to Christ, Christ was punished for us. All of this was done without any works on our part.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
nes,
Your questions have been answered, you just can't see them for the smog and the smoke from the hell fire issues that has your eyes blinded.
You asked this. So you still don't get why believers are called god's children.
We are called God's children because he is our Father and we are all of the family of God (Eph. 3:15).
That's not what it says. Why would it say "every family" if there is one family? It's just saying that every family has a father.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
You said "nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades". The answer is, because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Everyone of us has sinned and all are in sinful flesh, therefore all will die and go to the grave/hades.
That was meant to be a rhetorical question. So are we all going to die and go to hades, stop existing, or become a new creature? :laughing7:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
You said, "explain (Acts 2:27) " Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
David talking to God said, that God wouldn't leave him in the grave, neither would he allow Jesus to rot or decay but would resurrect him before he decayed.
The hell in acts 2:27 is hades (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm)), not the grave. You are misinterpreting the verse, I provided the greek proving that this is not the grave but hades. So he's asking to not be left in hades? I thought he went to paradise? Proof that paradise is in hades.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
You keep asking how Jesus saves us? The question should be, how DID Jesus save us?
That's not true. Read the topic, it says "How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?" There isn't much of a difference between "how jesus saves us" and "how did jesus save us".
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
Jesus saved us by living a perfect life. By dying and being resurrected he guarentees us the same destiny. Our sins were literally imputed to Christ, Christ was punished for us. All of this was done without any works on our part.
So if jesus saved us by living a perfect life as your first sentence says, then why did he need to die and be resurrected?
For your second sentence, who exactly is "us"? Believers or everyone?
How does he dying and being resurrected guarantee us the same destiny?
If our sins were imputed to christ, then why were people in paradise still there until jesus was resurrected?
Quote from: nesIf our sins were imputed to christ, then why were people in paradise still there until jesus was resurrected?
That's a really interesting question.
His resurrection is what brought Life? The whole "keys to death and hades" thing?
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2011, 06:26:39 AM
His resurrection is what brought Life? The whole "keys to death and hades" thing?
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Quote from: Molly on April 27, 2011, 06:46:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2011, 06:26:39 AM
His resurrection is what brought Life? The whole "keys to death and hades" thing?
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
:thumbsup: I'm no theologian. But my thought is, Jesus' death paid our price. His resurrection brought our Life.
Colossians 2
15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[a] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
[a]Colossians 2:15 Probably demonic rulers and authorities
Psalm 68:18
18 You ascended on high,
leading a host of captives in your train
and receiving gifts among men,
even among the rebellious, that the LORD God may dwell there.
Amen!
Im miffed, just where is this holding place called "paradise?"
Quote from: MicahIm miffed, just where is this holding place called "paradise?"
Hebrews 2:14 (King James Version)
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy
him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;'The power of death'--I suppose it might seem powerful to just wipe people off the playing field like so many irrelevant bit players in a video game--but the real power of death seems to me to include the ability to hold men in captivity for aeons.
But he who held that power--diabolos-- was destroyed 2000 years ago.
Quote from: Molly on April 27, 2011, 08:49:18 AM
Quote from: MicahIm miffed, just where is this holding place called "paradise?"
Hebrews 2:14 (King James Version)
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
'The power of death'--I suppose it might seem powerful to just wipe people off the playing field like so many irrelevant bit players in a video game--but the real power of death seems to me to include the ability to hold men in captivity for aeons.
But he who held that power--diabolos-- was destroyed 2000 years ago.
YES- tHE VERY ADVERSARY, THE ENEMY, THE LIAR, THE THEIF ITSELF"The carnal mind"
Quote from: Taffy on April 27, 2011, 02:05:32 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 27, 2011, 08:49:18 AM
Quote from: MicahIm miffed, just where is this holding place called "paradise?"
Hebrews 2:14 (King James Version)
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
'The power of death'--I suppose it might seem powerful to just wipe people off the playing field like so many irrelevant bit players in a video game--but the real power of death seems to me to include the ability to hold men in captivity for aeons.
But he who held that power--diabolos-- was destroyed 2000 years ago.
YES- tHE VERY ADVERSARY, THE ENEMY, THE LIAR, THE THEIF ITSELF"The carnal mind"
Man was given the carnal mind in the garden by the Nephesh.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said,
Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Man was given the carnal mind in the garden by the Nephesh.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. :icon_flower:
we were never Naked Molly - it was a deception of the carnal mind :icon_flower:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
nes,
Your questions have been answered, you just can't see them for the smog and the smoke from the hell fire issues that has your eyes blinded.
You asked this. So you still don't get why believers are called god's children.
We are called God's children because he is our Father and we are all of the family of God (Eph. 3:15).
Quote from: nes
That's not what it says. Why would it say "every family" if there is one family? It's just saying that every family has a father.
CLNT} After whom every kindred in the heavens and on earth is named.
YLT} Of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named.
KJV} Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
You said "nobody can answer why sin gets people to hades". The answer is, because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Everyone of us has sinned and all are in sinful flesh, therefore all will die and go to the grave/hades.
Quote from: nes
That was meant to be a rhetorical question. So are we all going to die and go to hades, stop existing, or become a new creature? :laughing7:
After we are resurrected, we become immortal. We are all going to die but of course you know this? :mshock:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
You said, "explain (Acts 2:27) " Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
David talking to God said, that God wouldn't leave him in the grave, neither would he allow Jesus to rot or decay but would resurrect him before he decayed.
Quote from: nes
The hell in acts 2:27 is hades (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm (http://biblos.com/acts/2-27.htm)), not the grave. You are misinterpreting the verse, I provided the greek proving that this is not the grave but hades. So he's asking to not be left in hades? I thought he went to paradise? Proof that paradise is in hades.
Hades is the state or resting place of the dead. To me that means the grave. Where are all the dead people at? Go to any grave yard and and you can dig up anyone that has died and been buried there.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
You keep asking how Jesus saves us? The question should be, how DID Jesus save us?
Quote from: nes
That's not true. Read the topic, it says "How exactly did jesus "save" mankind?" There isn't much of a difference between "how jesus saves us" and "how did jesus save us".
The difference is, present and past tense. Jesus has already saved the world, most just don't realize it. John said "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world".
The world has been saved the whole time, God is just bringing us all through the wilderness, so that we get to know him.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2011, 12:56:48 AM
Jesus saved us by living a perfect life. By dying and being resurrected he guarentees us the same destiny. Our sins were literally imputed to Christ, Christ was punished for us. All of this was done without any works on our part.
Quote from: nes
So if jesus saved us by living a perfect life as your first sentence says, then why did he need to die and be resurrected?
For your second sentence, who exactly is "us"? Believers or everyone?
How does he dying and being resurrected guarantee us the same destiny?
If our sins were imputed to christ, then why were people in paradise still there until jesus was resurrected?
Re-read your question. Us is mankind. Show me some scripture that proves that people were in paradise until Jesus was resurrected.
Where and what is paradise? Who do you think goes there? By the resurrection of Jesus he defeated death and because he was resurrected so will every one else be resurrected in their own time period.
CHB
"Re-read your question. Us is mankind. Show me some scripture that proves that people were in paradise until Jesus was resurrected.
Where and what is paradise? Who do you think goes there? By the resurrection of Jesus he defeated death and because he was resurrected so will every one else be resurrected in their own time period."
CHB
Amen Amen. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on April 27, 2011, 03:35:29 PM
Man was given the carnal mind in the garden by the Nephesh.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. :icon_flower:
That doesn't say the woman told him he was naked. In the next line, the woman blames the Nachash. It's clear that God agrees.
13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent,
Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
In your way of thinking, what does it mean for enmity to be put between the seed of the woman and the seed of the Nachash?
My guess is the 2 compartments of hades view comes from the Rich man and Lazarus parable.
YLTLuke 23
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Jesus lives in paradise. Jesus lives in Heaven with Father. Paradise is in hades. Heaven is a place in Hades.
YLTRev 20
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Then heaven/paradise is cast in LoF.
Dunno that's entirely correct :fool:
"My guess is the 2 compartments of hades view comes from the Rich man and Lazarus parable." WW
I agree with this. :2c:
A supporting view is that Jesus went to hell/hades to preach to the spirits in prison during the three days He was in the grave.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 27, 2011, 09:19:37 PM
My guess is the 2 compartments of hades view comes from the Rich man and Lazarus parable.
YLTLuke 23
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
He said that the day of his death, you don't think that the resurrection happened the same time jesus died right?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 27, 2011, 09:19:37 PM
Jesus lives in paradise. Jesus lives in Heaven with Father. Paradise is in hades. Heaven is a place in Hades.
YLTRev 20
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Then heaven/paradise is cast in LoF.
Dunno that's entirely correct :fool:
It's not correct, it's completely wrong. It doesn't matter if the paradise side of hades is cast to the lake of fire because everyone left the paradise side of hades when jesus was resurrected. Paradise = Abraham's bosom.
So tell me, if Abraham's bosom/paradise was heaven, why did jesus
ASCEND out of it?
Ephes. 4:7-10
captives?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 27, 2011, 09:19:37 PM
My guess is the 2 compartments of hades view comes from the Rich man and Lazarus parable.
YLTLuke 23
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Jesus lives in paradise. Jesus lives in Heaven with Father. Paradise is in hades. Heaven is a place in Hades.
YLTRev 20
14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Then heaven/paradise is cast in LoF.
Dunno that's entirely correct :fool:
how about Paradise is HID in Hades , HIM being the mind \seed within behind the veil of the heart--- so death which conceals it is Hades which is Cast into the FIRE which reveals paradise ---? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on April 27, 2011, 09:17:56 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 27, 2011, 03:35:29 PM
Man was given the carnal mind in the garden by the Nephesh.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. :icon_flower:
That doesn't say the woman told him he was naked. In the next line, the woman blames the Nachash. It's clear that God agrees.
13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
In your way of thinking, what does it mean for enmity to be put between the seed of the woman and the seed of the Nachash?
missed this Molly :icon_flower: :2c:
the serpent is within the MIND MOLLY --its the darkness,within- the Blindness, the ignorance, the pride , that which births earthy Judgment---- the serpent crawls in the DUST-- thats OUR mind Molly--- the DARKNESSwhich cant raise to the LELEL of spiritual Undertsanding and the LIFE which is--- this MIND lives OUTSIDE of the spiritual MIND which should dwell inside---
:2c: the enmity is as ipreviously stated Molly --- the two MINDS within --- the DOUBLE minded man--- is neither one way or the other--- the carnal MIND FIGHTs the spiritual Mind- ie the Battles are within the MIND--- we yeild to HIS mind in US - :icon_flower:
the serpent is subtle and decives within us Molly - Just one ANIMAL we are called to overcome-- tis why The Unclean beasts in TWOS- two minded] entered the ARK- with Noah - he was 600 yrs OLD when he entered and when entered he took with him the very Nature of the Beasts he was to OVERCOME within----both Clean and Unclean Beasts-- the unclean are to be overcome in us--the bear the lion the Fox, etc-- all parts of the nature of MEN---
I am truly sorry for stirring up the bee hive. Lee
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 30, 2011, 01:05:31 AM
I am truly sorry for stirring up the bee hive. Lee
No worries Lee :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 30, 2011, 01:14:48 AM
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 30, 2011, 01:05:31 AM
I am truly sorry for stirring up the bee hive. Lee
beehive?
Bees are GOOD-- they MAKE HONEY --- :icon_flower:
Dance to the figure of EIGHT-- :icon_flower:
Circle Dance
If the food source is less than 100 metres from the hive, the bee does a circle, or round dance. During the dance, the bee stops to give samples of the nectar, or to allow the pollen on her back legs to be inspected. The dance appears to say simply that there is food close to the hive. No distance or directional information is given.
Figure of Eight Dance
If the food source is more than 100 metres from the hive, the dance changes to a figure of eight pattern. When the bee passes through the centre of the eight, she wags her tail. The longer the time spent wagging, the further away the food is. Again the dancing bee gives out samples.
The angle of the wagtail section of the dance shows the direction of the food source. The angle formed between the vertical and the straight section of the figure of eight in the dance is the same as the angle formed at the hive between the present position of the sun and the direction of the food.
Ok, I am blown away. thanks
My maths teacher is the bees knees! :grin:
The Gospel is the message that provides mankind with inspired information about what God the Father and Christ Jesus did for mankind before the foundation of the world that got mankind saved! That is what the true teaching of the Gospel is all about and what Christ came to teach. Surprisingly, the simplicity of the subject is forcefully shown by the apostles in the New Testament, but the understanding of it has become one of the most complicated and even contradictory topics in the whole of the Bible. Theologians and laity alike have such diverse views on the means to obtain salvation and what salvation entails in the first place.
The apostle Paul made the subject of salvation in Christ to be a very simple matter. He said that people were saved even before the world was founded. That's right. Even before Adam and Eve were created, God already had it in His plan to save the humans He was going to create. Carefully notice what the apostle Paul said that shows this essential fact of the Gospel.
"Who hath saved us, and, called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Timothy 1:9)
What the Gospel of Jesus Christ provides is a notification to humans that they were saved in Christ even before the foundation of the world. It also shows why humans have been placed on earth and what God has planned to do for them in a future spiritual existence that will be glorious indeed. The message of the Gospel is simply God's blueprint to explain why he created mankind (both males and females and all the various races and divisions of mankind) and what mankind has been created to become.
Every single human being who has ever lived, who is living now, or who will ever live is involved in that blueprint that was established by God the Father before the foundation of the world. The goal for mankind in this wonderful plan was adopted and secured long before the first man and woman were created. The ultimate success of the plan was also known by God the Father and Christ Jesus before it was put into operation with the creation of Adam and Eve. The apostle James recorded the foreknowledge of God in all of His works that He plans:
"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:18)
God made a plan at the very beginning to save the human race that He was going to create. That plan was put into action and verified by the purpose and will of God the Father before the foundation of the world. Here again are the words of the apostle Paul:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." (Ephesians 1:3–5)
Quote from: Taffy on April 30, 2011, 01:23:33 AM
Bees are GOOD-- they MAKE HONEY --- :icon_flower:
Dance to the figure of EIGHT-- :icon_flower:
Circle Dance
If the food source is less than 100 metres from the hive, the bee does a circle, or round dance. During the dance, the bee stops to give samples of the nectar, or to allow the pollen on her back legs to be inspected. The dance appears to say simply that there is food close to the hive. No distance or directional information is given.
Figure of Eight Dance
If the food source is more than 100 metres from the hive, the dance changes to a figure of eight pattern. When the bee passes through the centre of the eight, she wags her tail. The longer the time spent wagging, the further away the food is. Again the dancing bee gives out samples.
The angle of the wagtail section of the dance shows the direction of the food source. The angle formed between the vertical and the straight section of the figure of eight in the dance is the same as the angle formed at the hive between the present position of the sun and the direction of the food.
:cloud9: This was just awesome......no wonder Deborah means "bee"..... :thumbsup:
The key to a renewed mind is a broken and a contrite heart. On the day of Pentecost Peter proclaimed the gospel and it says of the Sanhedrin, who were listening, that their hearts were pierced and they cried out, "Men and brethren what must we do"?
They were in a position to hear because with a change of heart their minds were released to receive the light and be renewed. This renewal was confirmed in their obedience to the gospel. Their obedience was in the nature of a spontaneous response to what they now believed to be real and true- and an eruption of love through the wound they had received in their hearts. A wound delivered by the Sword of the Spirit, dividing asunder their soul and spirit, making manifest the thoughts and intentions of their hearts.
The carnal mind is capable of retaining tons of knowledge and even fathoming the deepest mysteries of God(1 Cor 13), all without having had that change of heart.
That is why love is so important in the testimony. "By this the world will know that you are my disciples- your love for one another". Only a broken heart can release the love of God. Unbroken chaff binds a seed from fruitfulness/multiplication. All the potential is within, but no true spirit of grace and life and love erupts from it.
But it may know a lot.
Therefore it seems that a renewed mind is not the mind that knows a lot. It is the mind that is at the disposal of a heart that loves a lot. :o)
SOME VERY EXCELLANT POST HERE!!
yOU KNOW SOMETHING THAT KEEPS COMING BACK TO ME? iT IS JUST THIS......jESUS' STATEMENT..I ONLY DO WHAT I SEE THE FATHER DO/
BECAUSE OF HIS SAYING THIS.......I THINK....HMMMMMM WHEN HE WAS UP IN HEAVEN HE MUST HAVE BEEN SEEING HIS FATHER
RAISING THE DEAD,FORGIVING SINS,OPENING DEAF EARS,BLIND EYES,CASTING OUT DEMONS,HEALING THE AFFLICTED...SPEAKING WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE
TEACHING MAN
HE MUST HAVE BEHELD HIS FATHER LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE WILLINGLY,IN ORDER TO TAKE IT BACK UP AGAIN[ACTS 10;11]
ALL DONE SO WE CAN KNOW THE FATHER AND THE SON
SUCH CARE,BESTOWED UPON US
IPRAISE YOU FATHER,I PRAISE YOU JESUS, I PRAISE YOU HOLY SPIRIT ,BLESS YOU!
Glory and wow! That is awesome my mind became dismantled!
".jESUS' STATEMENT..I ONLY DO WHAT I SEE THE FATHER DO/
BECAUSE OF HIS SAYING THIS.......I THINK....HMMMMMM WHEN HE WAS UP IN HEAVEN HE MUST HAVE BEEN SEEING HIS FATHER
RAISING THE DEAD,FORGIVING SINS,OPENING DEAF EARS,BLIND EYES,CASTING OUT DEMONS,HEALING THE AFFLICTED...SPEAKING WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE
TEACHING MAN
HE MUST HAVE BEHELD HIS FATHER LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE WILLINGLY,IN ORDER TO TAKE IT BACK UP AGAIN[ACTS 10;11]
ALL DONE SO WE CAN KNOW THE FATHER AND THE SON
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 20, 2011, 03:54:29 AM
Glory and wow! That is awesome my mind became dismantled!
".jESUS' STATEMENT..I ONLY DO WHAT I SEE THE FATHER DO/
BECAUSE OF HIS SAYING THIS.......I THINK....HMMMMMM WHEN HE WAS UP IN HEAVEN HE MUST HAVE BEEN SEEING HIS FATHER
RAISING THE DEAD,FORGIVING SINS,OPENING DEAF EARS,BLIND EYES,CASTING OUT DEMONS,HEALING THE AFFLICTED...SPEAKING WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE
TEACHING MAN
HE MUST HAVE BEHELD HIS FATHER LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE WILLINGLY,IN ORDER TO TAKE IT BACK UP AGAIN[ACTS 10;11]
ALL DONE SO WE CAN KNOW THE FATHER AND THE SON
Yes, I must agree. It has always been there yet I have never seen it.
Found this while studying a different site, but it sure is a long ball, out of the park homer for me. Again there all the time.
Revelation 15:1
[Concordant]
And I perceived another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven messengers having the last seven calamities—for in them is consummated the fury of God."
[ESV]
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.
"How many times I've read the book of Revelation and this verse didn't stick out to me until the other day.... The wrath of God cannot last for eternity because has an ending, a finish, a consummation! Scripture says so! Can it be any clearer?"
Hebrews 4;3
Now we who have beleived enter the rest,just as God has said....
'SO I DECLARED AN OATH IN MY ANGER,THEY SHALL NEVER ENTER MY REST
AND YET HIS WORK HAS BEEN FINISHED SINCE THE CREATING OF THE WORLD
For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in these words...
And on the seventh daay God rested from all his work. And again in the passage above He says...they will never enter my rest
IT STILL REMAINS THAT SOME WILL ENTER THAT REST...and thosewho formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in,
because of their disobediance
THEREFORE,GOD AGAIN SET A CERTAIN DAY,CALLING IT TODAY.......[today,you will be with me in paradise]
WHEN A LONG TIME LATER HE SPOKE T6HROUGH dAVID,AS WAS SAID BEFORE....
today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts
in hEAVEN..EVERYDAY IS TODAY! THOSE WHOSE HEARTS ARE HARDENED IN THIS WORLD..WILL ENTER THAT COMMANDED REST/SABBATH
ON THAT 'CERTAIN'DAY..FOR ALL WORKS WILL CEASE
NOW JESUS SAID,MY FATHER CONTINUES TO WORK AND SO DO I
JOHN6;28 'THEN THEY ASKED HIM,'WHAT MUST WE DO TO DO THE WORK GOD REQUIRES/'
jesus answered' THE WORK OF GOD IS THIS..........TO BELEIVE IN THE ONE HE SENT
then they asked for a miraculous sign.....still hard put to beive the grace that was being offered them through Jesus....and
they refferrred to the miraculous manna in the desert...as bread from heaven
Jesus told them...it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven......
FOR THE BREAD OF GOD IS HE WHO COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN
AND GIVES LIFE TO THE WORLD
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 20, 2011, 04:30:18 PM
Found this while studying a different site, but it sure is a long ball, out of the park homer for me. Again there all the time.
Revelation 15:1
[Concordant]
And I perceived another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven messengers having the last seven calamities—for in them is consummated the fury of God."
[ESV]
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.
"How many times I've read the book of Revelation and this verse didn't stick out to me until the other day.... The wrath of God cannot last for eternity because has an ending, a finish, a consummation! Scripture says so! Can it be any clearer?"
Gotta agree...strong support for God's wrath having a beginning AND an end.
John 6;39
AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME,THAT I SHALL LOSE NONE OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME,
BUT RAISE THEM UP AT THE LAST DAY
BUT LORD,BY THIS TIME THERE IS A BAD ODOUR,FOR HE HAS BEEN THERE FOUR DAYS....44444444444DAYSDAYSDAYS
JOHN 11;42.......DID I NOT TELL YOU THAT IF YOU BELEIVED YOU WOULD SEE THE GLORY OF GOD
SO THEY TOOK AWAY THE STONE[HARD HEART/LAW COVENANT]LAID ACROSS THE ENTRANCE.......[MT 7;9 WHAT FATHER WHEN HIS SON ASK FOR BREAD GIVE HIM A
STONE?]/ THEN JESUS LOOKE UP AND SAID,'FATHER I THANK YOU THAT YOU HAVE HEARD ME,BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE STANDING
HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELEIVE THAT YOU SENT ME
WHEN HE HAD SAID THIS,JESUS SAID IN A LOUD VOICE 'COME OUT....
JESUS SAID TO THEM....TAKE OFF THE GRAVE CLOTHES AND LET HIM GO
JOHN 5;28 DO NOT BE AMAZED AT THIS..FOR A TIME IS COMING WHEN ALL WHOARE IN THEIR GRAVES[ALL,ALL]WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND COME OUT
THOSE WH HAVE DONE GOOD WILL RISE TO LIVE, AND THOSE WHO HAVE DONE EVIL WILL RISE TO BE CONDEMNED
ROMANS 3;13 NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS
WHAT SHALL WE CONCLUDE THEN,ARE WE ANY BETTER? NOT AT ALL WE HAVE ALREADY MADE THE CHARGE THAT JEWS AND GENTILES ALIKE
ARE ALL UNDER SIN,AS IT IS WRITTEN..........ALL HAVE TURNED AWAY....THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD....
THEIR THROATS ARE OPEN GRAVES,THEIR TONGUES PRACTICE DECEIT,THE POISON OF VIPERS IS ON THEIR LIPS.....
V 19 NOW WE KNOW THAT WHATEVER THE LAW SAYS,IT SAYS IT TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER LAW....
SO THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE SILENCED...AND THE WHOLE WORLD HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD...
THEREFORE NO ONE WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS IN HIS SIGHT BY OBSERVING THE LAW
BUT NOW,A RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD,APART FROM LAW[APPEAR AGAIN APART FROM SIN]
THERE IS NOT DIFFERENCE,FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD...
AND ARE JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE
THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT CAME BY CHRIST JESUS
GREAT POST SEVEN BOWLS OF WRATH......SPEAKS OF THE SEVEN WOES JESUS PUT ON THE PHARISEES AND TEACHERS OF THE LAW
WOE TO YOU...WOE TO YOU
AS FAR AS I CAN SEE....THE ONLY GOOD THING THAT COME OF MAN EATING OF THE TOKOGAE......WAS GOD COMING TO JUDGE AND FULFILL THE LAW
AND GIVE US THE FREE GIFT OF GRACE
FOR THE COMMANDMENT[NOT TO EAT OF TOKOGAE]WAS UNTO LIFE....OR IT WAS NOT GOD'S INTENTION TO BRING DEATH TO MAN...
INDEED HIS GOOD INTENTIONS ARE MADE MANIFEST TO US,WHEN HE CANCELS OUT THE COMMANDMENT AGAINST US, AND GIVES US THE FREE
GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE
WOW! WHAT A FATHER.......WHAT LOVE!
:cloud9: I just love it when you speak in tongues :grin: :girlheart: Great posts :thumbsup:
There is another good thing from eating the TOKOGAE,
The man has become one of us, to know good and evil.
brought to you by ThinkTankHS inc ...
a lot of good that knowledge would do us if we were dead :mblush:
I believe God wanted us to have good and knowledge, but in His timing.
Stop them eating the tree of life, lest they live forever.
So there is nothing evil about the tree of knowledge.
:2c:
..... it wasn't called tree of knowledge of good AND EVIL for nothing.....
frankly,I think the TOL is a much wiser choice,also...no death in it...and lots of wisdom
presumptousness is the same as witchcraft[babylon]
wisdom is knowledge exercized in love
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.
How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it :dontknow:
As you said. Wisdom is exercised by knowledge, and knowledge also includes the knowledge of evil.
Adam and Eve did not have the wisdom.
Borrowed from another thread--
Ps 17:15
I will be satisfied when I wake in your likeness.
Quote from: thinktank on June 21, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.
How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it :dontknow:
God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness. The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.
Just a few thoughts
Seems we never know what we have lost until it is gone. Its a hard way to learn, but it is the method we mostly learn by. Gratitude, thankfulness, appreciation for grace in the little things of life- what preservation from the arrows of the enemy and the thorns of our own worries and schemes! It is no wonder Jesus spent so much time talking about how the cares of this life and the love of material possessions are manifestations of death. It seems like the consciousness of limitation replaced the consciousness of God's infinite grace after we "ate". We forgot how to share and started killing each other pretty much right away.
There is more than enough to go around when God is in the work.
And God shall supply all your needs according to His riches and mercy...... And no one among them had any need...... and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and God added daily to their number those who were appointed to deliverance.......
Considering the sparrow and the lily may be equivalent to eating from the tree of life
Worrying about what we shall eat and what we shall wear may be equivalent to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
Cain didn't "get it"- there was more than enough love to go around, it was just about learning how to walk with God. The acceptable sacrifice of a broken and contrite heart.
Cain felt he was owed something he didnt get, while Able got something he didnt earn.... "Who has known the mind of the Lord, who has given to Him that He should repay"
When the heart is broken and contrite the flaming sword that guards the garden is removed and the garden is opened
In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.
(Isa 27:1-3)
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:24-25)
The prophetic word can slay Leviathan, it can separate soul and spirit and expose the secrets of the heart, so that once i see my reflection I can remember the grace of God and the life that is in Jesus for the dead- those in whom death is working in Adam so that life can flow out of Christ the inner man. But it aint easy ! :o)
"Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart...." and they walked with the Voice of the Lord.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 21, 2011, 04:18:58 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 21, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.
How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it :dontknow:
God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness. The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.
Yes. In fact the subtlety of the serpent was even more subtle than I have been told. Many of the things the serpent said I have found to be scriptural truth.
Christ in the wilderness had satan quote scriptures at him and Christ refuted those with scriptures.
Satan is the prince of this current age, but he is not the king of the universe in any way shape or form.
He does this footwashing with all of us,because He loves us. He has to unseal that Word of God and give us His understanding for us to be victorious
and trample serpents beneath our feet...or walk on the waters above leviathan[Isaih 27;1-3]
"why" be saved? Because if you don't you can't "see" the kingdom. You can't see "anything". You can't reproduce His nature into others. You can't hear the leading of his voice. You can't discern truth. You can't walk in his illumination. You can't die to self. Why be saved? Because without him we are nothing.
Quote from: thinktank on June 21, 2011, 10:21:41 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on June 21, 2011, 04:18:58 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 21, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.
How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it :dontknow:
God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness. The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.
Yes. In fact the subtlety of the serpent was even more subtle than I have been told. Many of the things the serpent said I have found to be scriptural truth.
scriptural truth embedded in a lie. Or a lie embedded in the truth.
Even today, those that run the world, always have to embed the truth in a lie The truth is always there for those who seek it. They are following some law that requires them to do this.
Yes, many times I think that the only difference between good an evil is the motivation behind it.
E.g Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is a truth, yet coming from a evil viewpoint it would mean cannablism for the disciples to kill Jesus and cook him or to take His body and then....... , and coming from a natural viewpoint as some of the people did, it would be revolting and offensive.
Just thought I'd say though that Jesus did a lot of this :footmouth:
I think that perhaps Jesus could have done better job at preaching. But it occurred to me that every human being has different talents, and maybe Jesus while great at wowing crowds, carpentry and being the Son of God, not quite so good at delivering a message to the people. Maybe that's why He sent Paul, to clear up some things, that Jesus didn't have time or ability to do (Ability i.e relate to sinners, since Jesus was without sin and maybe did not quite understand how the natural mind works, or pheraps lapsed in those moments of divine revelation.
But Jesus is Lord and saviour
Praise
:cloud9: Exactly. It's the motive of the heart. If God tells you to do it, then it's not sin, doesn't matter what it is, because HE dictates what is sin and what is not. Being maleable to His Spirit is what we have to learn, just as the Israelites were supposed to learn it. If they had been, more of them would have been receptive to the changes made. My :2c:
good to see nathan back
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: Nathan on June 22, 2011, 10:21:54 PM
"why" be saved? Because if you don't you can't "see" the kingdom. You can't see "anything". You can't reproduce His nature into others. You can't hear the leading of his voice. You can't discern truth. You can't walk in his illumination. You can't die to self. Why be saved? Because without him we are nothing.
Pride; proud and pleased with self blind to the fact that our flesh is the creation and not the Creator!
Quote from: thinktank on June 23, 2011, 01:48:26 AM
Yes, many times I think that the only difference between good an evil is the motivation behind it.
E.g Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is a truth, yet coming from a evil viewpoint it would mean cannablism for the disciples to kill Jesus and cook him or to take His body and then....... , and coming from a natural viewpoint as some of the people did, it would be revolting and offensive.
Just thought I'd say though that Jesus did a lot of this :footmouth:
I think that perhaps Jesus could have done better job at preaching. But it occurred to me that every human being has different talents, and maybe Jesus while great at wowing crowds, carpentry and being the Son of God, not quite so good at delivering a message to the people. Maybe that's why He sent Paul, to clear up some things, that Jesus didn't have time or ability to do (Ability i.e relate to sinners, since Jesus was without sin and maybe did not quite understand how the natural mind works, or pheraps lapsed in those moments of divine revelation.
But Jesus is Lord and saviour
Praise
Yikes! Really? You don't supposed it may have to do with the fact that Jesus was establishing SPIRITUAL principles with people who are embedded and bound to NATURAL reasoning? He even said "why" he spoke in the way that he did, he did it because he was the fulfillment of the Scriptures to reveal the fact that those who had eyes could not see and those who had ears could not hear. He quoted Psalms 115 and 135. If you look up those passages, you'll find that the REASON why they were in that condition was because of IDOLS they themselves formed with their own minds and doctrines. The idols have eyes but can't see, ears but can't hear and those who bow down to them become LIKE them so that they also can't spiritually see, hear, touch, discern, let alone understand spiritual truth. In the passage in Psalms 135 it even says there's no breath in their mouths . . . which to me means there's no life in their words.
Jesus inadequate in delivering the gospel? I really think it's the other way around. People shackle themselves by leaning on their own understanding which makes them inadequate for receiving the Word.
I understand your reaction. But please think through and see what I am saying.
You speak biblical truth that mankind is blind to spiritual truths and cannot discern between good and evil.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear
I am simply saying that Jesus could have delivered His message a little better and speak more in tune with the people's understanding
Today I often hear preachers say that we need to speak the language of the world in order to reach out to them, as speaking churchy often offends the world.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Here we can see that even Jesus disciples, the ones that Jesus said were privileged to see, (First scripture above) were challenged and frustrated by the sayings of Jesus. This reminds me of many Christians feelings today, who don't understand the book, but simply put their faith in Jesus.
I am simply saying that Jesus could have delivered His message a little better and speak more in tune with the people's understanding[/b]
I was doing a search for a particular passage and these others came up in the process . . . .
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
It just sounds like what you're trying to do is take the spiritual message Jesus was establishing and wishing he would dumb it down so natural minds wouldn't have to submit to spiritual truths. It's kinda like having your cake and eat it to . . .(which never really made sense to me . . .) But Jesus wasn't here to cater to the mind of man . . .he came to renew it and the only way to renew a mind is through the Spirit.
"This" is the passage I was trying to look up.
1 Corinthians 2:9-11 (King James Version)
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
[/color
I can't explain it any better than that. Unless of course I post a different translation of it . . .
Message says the latter part this way. . .
14-16The unspiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit—God's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by unspiritual critics.
I know Jesus wants us to come up hither, and not for Him to come down to us. But also God did come down to our level and became like unto us, we beheld His glory and walked among us. Look at this passage
5These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Here we see Jesus no longer speaking in proverbs and as soon as Jesus speaks plainly, the disciples hail Him and see Him as the Son of God.
Would it not be better had Jesus did this all along? It seems that perhaps Jesus learned that the disciples were not understanding the proverbs, so He decided to speak to them plainly. If Jesus is so against speaking plainly why speak plainly here to the disciples? and why prophecy that the time will come when He will no longer speak in proverbs, bu will show you plainly of the Father.
There is another scripture which shows that Jesus did learn/grow as He got older
Luke 1:80
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
Another point is that the apostle Paul comes along and speaks plainly concerning salvation of all men, Concerning the Mosiac laws etc
We can be as spiritual as Mother Teresa, but we can never be as God is, so maybe God had difficulty communicating His message to people that are very different to Him. Jesus said greater works shall you do, Jesus said that. One advantage we as sinners have over Jesus is that we have sinned and can relate better to sinful humanity perhaps.
:2c:
I guess I really can't come to the place where I think Jesus or God either one struggled in communicating anything to us. And to the "speaking plainly" reference, if you keep it all in context, Jesus never actually changed the way he spoke, he was actually repeating what he'd been saying all along. It was just the disciples finally matured into a place spiritually where they could finally see what it was he was saying the whole time. As to Paul . .. I think it was Peter who wrote about Paul saying that he realizes the things Paul says are difficult to understand . . .which indicates that Paul wasn't really simplifying all that much as people still saw the things he said as complicated. And much of what Paul "was" relaying, were things Jesus was directly telling him.
It's all in personal perspective I guess.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
TT a parable is not spoken in order to hide its meaning and parable is spoken in order to reveal the meaning of something hidden. To us (the child of God) it is given to know the mysteries but as those who do not know God, (those mysteries the child of God know) Jesus spoke in parables so that they would come to know those mysteries.
The people saw and heard about the things of God but could not understand the mystery, therefore, Jesus spoke in parables so that they would be able to understand the mysteries.
People have a wrong understanding of what a parable is, it is not to hide the secrets but to bring the secrets to light.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Quote from: Nathan on June 23, 2011, 10:37:33 PM
Jesus never actually changed the way he spoke, he was actually repeating what he'd been saying all along. It was just the disciples finally matured into a place spiritually where they could finally see what it was he was saying the whole time.
It's all in personal perspective I guess.
John 16
7Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while?
we cannot tell what he saith.
19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
But here the disciples don't understand what Jesus is saying. It is only a few verses later that they say, "know you speak plainly and we know you are the Son of God"
I feel that the days we now live in is a time where the truths of the bible are spoken more plainly than ever before, to reach out the the highways and the byways, so that all kinds of people can learn the truth of Jesus and not just a advantage few.
:2c:
Oh yeah, I totally agree with you there . . . for such a time as this. God is revealing and unveiling more and more as Jesus is resurrecting "his" church in us and through us. These are definitely times where the illumination of his light and life are being revealed more and more and the mainline church will be having less and less impact.
Jesus hid things from the masses and revealed them to the "inner circle", his disciples. In fact, He told the disciples clearly as much, and stated it was "lest they [the masses/Jews] believe and turn".
"To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they turn again, and be forgiven" (Mark 4:11-12).
...consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening". Romans 9:18
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9:16
It's about His timing and will. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess, but "each in his own turn".
Quote from: pneuma on June 23, 2011, 11:46:13 PM
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
TT a parable is not spoken in order to hide its meaning and parable is spoken in order to reveal the meaning of something hidden. To us (the child of God) it is given to know the mysteries but as those who do not know God, (those mysteries the child of God know) Jesus spoke in parables so that they would come to know those mysteries.
The people saw and heard about the things of God but could not understand the mystery, therefore, Jesus spoke in parables so that they would be able to understand the mysteries.
People have a wrong understanding of what a parable is, it is not to hide the secrets but to bring the secrets to light.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Wow . . .somehow I missed this one . . .this was really good! I enjoyed it THOROUGHLY!!! :bigGrin:
A parable is meant to reveal what is hidden to the humble and the seeking, while at the same time hiding what is being revealed from the haughty and those who esteem themselves more highly than they ought.
That seeing they might not perceive and hearing they might not understand
The cornerstone becomes a stumbling block to those who cannot "humble themselves under the mighty hand of God"
To the one who has (a humble seeking heart), more shall be given
To the one who has not(having become arrogant, self assured) even that which he has shall be taken away(that which was once living revelation will become rotten manna, or dead letter/law)
With the measure you mete so shall you be measured
If any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know
Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor
But we have a wisdom we speak among the mature- a wisdom covered in the divine nature
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
(1Co 13:2)
Quote from: Nathan on June 24, 2011, 03:01:23 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 23, 2011, 11:46:13 PM
The people saw and heard about the things of God but could not understand the mystery, therefore, Jesus spoke in parables so that they would be able to understand the mysteries.
People have a wrong understanding of what a parable is, it is not to hide the secrets but to bring the secrets to light.
Wow . . .somehow I missed this one . . .this was really good! I enjoyed it THOROUGHLY!!! :bigGrin:
Hi Nathan. You believe parables were spoken so people could more easily understand? I don't believe that's the case AT ALL. I know the orthodox view is such, but I think it's pretty far off base. I believe the scriptures generally teach just the opposite - at least/especially when it came to Jesus' earthly ministry. :2c:
Amen Eaglesway :thumbsup:
Hi James, Nathan
I was actually saying that parables do both at the same time- :o)
Reveal things to babes
Hide things from the wise and prudent
Jesus never said it should be easy ;o)
At least, not until we get yoked up.
Hi John, yes, I agree...that's what Jesus said; to those to whom it has (by grace) been given. Not to those taking the broad road.
A parable is a "dark saying"
Jesus is the "light"
A parable by itself stays hidden in the "darkness", but when the "light" comes, the parable is understood.
Therefore, when Jesus (who is the light) spoke in parables it was to bring into light that which was once in darkness.
Look at all the times in scripture Jesus spoke a parable and the Scribes and the Pharisees perceived that He spoke it of them. These were not humble men, but proud and haughty men and the parable Jesus spoke opened their eyes to the truth.
A parable is to bring to light that which was in darkness.
:cloud9: Hi pneuma..... :hijacked: Just wanted to say it's good to see you back posting...... :girlheart:
Hey Jabcat . . .I think you got confused in the way the thread opened up here . .. I don't think at all that parables were given so the general population could find it easier to grasp. I was actually arguing 'against" that . . .TT was suggesting that he thought Jesus could have done a better job delivering his message rather than talking over everyone's head. I saw red flags all around that. I think Jesus spoke parables because people who had erected and worshiped their own religious idols brought about a spiritual deafness and blindness and the parables were an illumination to that. They were hung up on what he was literally saying, yet those to whom the Spriit was still able to speak to went away in joy rather than angst because they could see what it really meant. The disciples were not seeing at the time, but Jesus proclaimed regardless of the struggles they may have been having, they had the ability to see what he was saying. My point was, there was no struggle on God's part as he was communicating with us, the struggle was, us laying down our idols so that we could see what he was saying in the first place.
Nathan. I was clarifying what you believed, as you seemed to be agreeing with pneuma's post. He said "Jesus spoke in parables so that they would be able to understand the mysteries - People have a wrong understanding of what a parable is, it is not to hide the secrets but to bring the secrets to light."
So since you gave it a "thumbs up" and seemed enthused about it, I was asking what you really believe - and saying I see it differently.
In general, it seems a question might be, did Jesus say "It's been given to them to know the secrets of the kingdom, that's why I'm speaking to them in parables; so they can understand"?
Your statement here in your last post - "I don't think at all that parables were given so the general population could find it easier to grasp. I was actually arguing 'against" that" (along with what Jesus Himself said) answers that question.
"..for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand.." Jesus, quoted in Mark 4.
So TT, I wouldn't personally say Jesus could have done a better job. I believe He was doing exactly as was intended; showing whom He chose to show at that time, and hiding it from those vessels fitted for destruction (to be brought in fully, but in God's will and timing, not man's). As Molly said recently, the plan would seem to be one of exclusion, if one didn't understand the workings of God's plan for the ages. Well said Molly!
So sorry Jabcat . . .I was ALL mixed up . . .still probably am. My mind's a bit scattered today. Maybe I misunderstood what was being said. In short, I see the parables doing an array of things. One, it had a moral truth (the literal story itself) Two, it has a spiritual truth, but only those who were able to see through the spirit were able to embrace it. Three, it revealed those that were blind, and those that could see. Four, it fulfilled the prophecies foretold.
But for me, none of the reasons were so natural minds could comprehend spiritual truths . . .as another post I did recently points to that spiritual speaks to spiritual and flesh to flesh. But spiritual was not watered down so those in the flesh could remain there and still partake of spiritual truth. If you are thirsty for spiritual water, ya gotta leave the earthy banks and get in the river . . . there is an effort to labor into the rest of God.
I apologize for the confusion.
:bigGrin: It's OK. I very well could have been confused, wouldn't be the first time. :wacko2:
I know you've got lots on your mind, don't give it a second thought. Good points. :thumbsup:
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
--Mat 13
I really like the Message translation on this . . .it points to the fact that the parables are to make people thirsty for deeper things . . .
10The disciples came up and asked, "Why do you tell stories?"
11-15He replied, "You've been given insight into God's kingdom. You know how it works. Not everybody has this gift, this insight; it hasn't been given to them. Whenever someone has a ready heart for this, the insights and understandings flow freely. But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears. That's why I tell stories: to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they're blue in the face and not get it. I don't want Isaiah's forecast repeated all over again:
Your ears are open but you don't hear a thing.
Your eyes are awake but you don't see a thing.
The people are blockheads!
They stick their fingers in their ears
so they won't have to listen;
They screw their eyes shut
so they won't have to look,
so they won't have to deal with me face-to-face
and let me heal them.
Bro. Nathan, I believe I hear some orthodox interpretation in that passage from the Message. I hear them assuming Jesus was "trying to get them to see".
Let me give another translation that's very literal from the Koine Greek, the Christian Bible (1991).
..because to know the secrets of the heavenly Kingdom has been given to you, yet it hasn't been given to them. For whoever uses what he has, more will be given to him, and he will have an abundance; yet whoever doesn't use what he has, even what he had, will be taken away from him. For this reason, I speak to them in illustrations, because though they observe, they don't observe; and though they hear, they don't hear, neither do they understand. So Isaiah's prophecy is being fulfilled in them, saying, "you will keep on hearing, but shall by no means understand; and you will keep on observing, but shall by no means have any awareness..."
Wat'cha think?
It seems that there is a conundrum that is always present- a paradox. Either God cannot do what He says He wants to do, or we are unable to interpret what He is saying He wants to do.
In Revelations 10 there is an angel standing with one foot on the land and the other in the sea. He is clothed in a cloud(we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses). His head is in heaven( our head is Christ, at God's right hand, head over all things to the church),because there is a rainbow around His head(we are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, and there is a rainbow around His throne) His face is shining like the sun and(just in case you were wondering if this is really a picture of the ONE NEW MAN) his feet are as pillars of fire- and in his hand is a little book. John is given the book, and told to eat it. Then He is told that He must prophesy before kings and peoples and nations.
We can't get into this mighty messenger unless we eat the book. You can read it all you want to, and be blessed by it as you will, but until you EAT IT, you are a passenger in a child safety seat.
Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
(Gal 4:1-2)
We all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the image of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, form glory to glory, by the Spirit, who is the Lord......But it is until WE ALL ATTAIN to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Oh if only we could move as one into the mind of Christ, be admitted together into the councils of God, dwell in the eternal burnings together, become a corporate messenger in the power of the Spirit!
How beautiful upon the mountains
Are the feet of him who brings good news,
Who proclaims peace,
Who brings glad tidings of good things,
Who proclaims salvation,
Who says to Zion,
" Your God reigns!"
Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices,
They shout joyfully together;
For they will see with their own eyes
When the LORD restores Zion.
(Isa 52:7,8)
Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints(holy ones,i.e.called out ones...separate ones) together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
(Psa 50:2-5)
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
(Rom 12:1-5)
Until we eat the book that is bitter in our belly, we are not living epistles read of all men. Servants of the Lord, Sons of god, a Kngdom of Priests - many are called but few are chosen........it is hard to digest- my life is not my own, to live is Christ, to die is gain
When I was a child I spake as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things.
Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
(Gal 4:1-2)
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.............. He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a RESULT, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:1-16)
God have mercy :o)
We are meant to be a part of how God saved mankind- but I don't think we get it!
Matthew 13:34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
If this scripture is true then the thought that Jesus spoke in parables to hide the secrets CANNOT be correct.
A parable is something that is used to set side by side with the truth in order to illuminate the truth. It is not set side by side with the truth in order to hide the truth.
Jesus being the truth and the light can only speak truth and light, therefore He does not hide the light in a parable He uses a parable to illuminate the light.
So let's set side by side the KJV and Young's literal (YL) and see if we can understand if these parables were to illuminate or to hide the meaning.
KJV
Matthew 13:10-23
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
YL
10 And the disciples having come near, said to him, `Wherefore in similes dost thou speak to them?'
This is pretty plain; the disciples are asking Jesus why He spoke unto the multitudes in parables.
KJV
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
YL
11 And he answering said to them that -- `To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,
Jesus answer to the question is The Child of God knows the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and to those who are without it has not been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus did not speak the parables so the child of God would know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, He spoke in parables so that those without could understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.
To put it in our everyday language
Why do you speak to them in parables? Because they do not know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus spoke the parables that they might know the mysteries, as the mysteries were already given to the child of God.
This is brought out more fully here
KJV
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
YL
12 for whoever hath, it shall be given to him, and he shall have overabundance, and whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him. 13 `Because of this, in similes do I speak to them, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor understand,
Jesus continues to explain why He speaks to them in parables.
The question is still why do you speak to them in parables.
Jesus answer is because they seeing do not see and hearing do not hear, nor understand.
To put it in our everyday language.
Why do you speak to them in parables? Because they do not know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and because they seeing do not see and they hearing do not hear, nor understand.
Jesus is NOT saying He speaks in parables so that those seeing would not see and those hearing would not hear. He IS saying He speaks in parables because they do not see, hear or understand.
Jesus is bringing to light those things they do not understand.
KJV
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
YL
14 and fulfilled on them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that saith, With hearing ye shall hear, and ye shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and ye shall not perceive, 15 for made gross was the heart of this people, and with the ears they heard heavily, and their eyes they did close, lest they might see with the eyes, and with the ears might hear, and with the heart understand, and turn back, and I might heal them.
These scriptures are misunderstood by those who believe Jesus spoke in parables in order to hide His message.
Their understanding goes something like this.
Jesus hides the truth in parables so that the multitudes would NOT turn to Him, would not be converted and so could not be healed.
This understanding is in total disregards to what Jesus said why He spoke to the multitudes in parables. It is also in disregards to His purpose in coming into the world to save everyone in it.
What those scriptures are saying is that Isaiah prophesied that the multitudes in Jesus day would be hearing, and not hear, seeing, and not see because their heart had waxed gross. Jesus is saying because of these things, the heart waxing gross, the heavy ears, the closed eyes is the reason He had to speak to them in parables.
Why do you speak to them in parables? Because they do not know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and because they seeing do not see and they hearing do not hear, nor understand.
This all comes to a head here the accumulation of what was said regarding the reason Jesus spoke in parables.
KJV
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
YL
' 34 All these things spake Jesus in similes to the multitudes, and without a simile he was not speaking to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through the prophet, saying, `I will open in similes my mouth, I will utter things having been hidden from the foundation of the world.'
So the answer to whys Jesus spoke in parables is this.
Because they do not know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven and because they seeing do not see and they hearing do not hear, nor understand. I open my mouth in parables to utter things that have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Jesus did not utter parables to keep hidden the secrets, but to illuminate the secrets that were hidden from the foundation of the world.
God bless
Quote from: Cardinal on June 24, 2011, 05:02:00 PM
:cloud9: Hi pneuma..... :hijacked: Just wanted to say it's good to see you back posting...... :girlheart:
Thanks Card :boyheart:
Quote from: Nathan on June 24, 2011, 03:01:23 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 23, 2011, 11:46:13 PM
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
TT a parable is not spoken in order to hide its meaning and parable is spoken in order to reveal the meaning of something hidden. To us (the child of God) it is given to know the mysteries but as those who do not know God, (those mysteries the child of God know) Jesus spoke in parables so that they would come to know those mysteries.
The people saw and heard about the things of God but could not understand the mystery, therefore, Jesus spoke in parables so that they would be able to understand the mysteries.
People have a wrong understanding of what a parable is, it is not to hide the secrets but to bring the secrets to light.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Wow . . .somehow I missed this one . . .this was really good! I enjoyed it THOROUGHLY!!! :bigGrin:
Thanks Nathan.
My mom always says you know the truth of something when you get a leaping in the womb as John jumped in the womb when He heard the salutation of Mary.
God bless
different POV
they were SUPPOSED TO BE BLINDED TIL THE FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES COME IN to humble them for their arrogance...so NO FLESH COULD BOAST
very same thing He's done today to organized religion...PRIDE,ARROGANCE......let the harlots and tax-collectors be first
those things wer to be revealed in His time......the Revelation of Christ..the unsealing..the mysteries of godliness and iniquity He makes them jealous by a people
with no understanding People they despised Today,Babylon Christendom,does the very same thing..saying who they see fit for destruction,while
they apply a generous serving of grace to themselves..they skimp grace to others. The rulee's want someone to rule over
He said,I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER......why should the glory of God be given unto the Prince of this world...Jesus said
you are not to be like the nations whose benefactors Lord it over others
He may have opened His mouth in parables..but the blind did not see nor the deaf hear unless He opened their eyes and ears
QuoteHe may have opened His mouth in parables..but the blind did not see nor the deaf hear unless He opened their eyes and ears
He did open their eyes and ears, and it was done by parables.
He goes on to explain that He sowed good seed and the devil, the worldly cares etc. contended with that good seed and overpower it so to speak before it has time to get its roots sunk into the deep soil.
For me the difference between a parable and a pattern is fading away.
A parable is a litteral thing that very often can be observed in daily life. But it has at least one other deeper meaning. Never hidden. It just has to be found. America wasn't discovered by the Vikings because God hid the whole whole continent; it was just that nobody never bothered to sail (search) that far.
So for me the HS revealing something doesn't mean a thing get 'unhidden'; in just mean get a hint where to look.
Same for a parable it doesn't reavly reveal things. It gives hints to discover things.
Another thing about a prabable is that it open the eyes of people who otherwise would not hear it.
e.g Jesus ask the pharisses a question, about who should love most, the parable opens the eyes of the pharisses and they say, "The one who had most forgiven"
Outiside of their programmed beliefs that anything gentile = less, dog, second class
Now the parable iserts a loophole, so that Jesus does not say gentile, and opens their heart to see that the one who is forgiven most loves most.
Quote from: thinktank on June 26, 2011, 01:04:32 AM
Another thing about a prabable is that it open the eyes of people who otherwise would not hear it.
e.g Jesus ask the pharisses a question, about who should love most, the parable opens the eyes of the pharisses and they say, "The one who had most forgiven"
Outiside of their programmed beliefs that anything gentile = less, dog, second class
Now the parable iserts a loophole, so that Jesus does not say gentile, and opens their heart to see that the one who is forgiven most loves most.
Amen
TT
thank you so much for that post, it lit up an area of darnkess in me of His nature that I had never appreciated or seen before.
Sheila