Matthew 10:28 & Luke 12:4-5

[Jon]

Though these appear not to be among the verses quoted most often by ET preachers to "prove" their position, they are the ones I personally find hardest to reconcile with the notion that Jesus' warnings about Gehenna pertained to an upcoming, 1st-century judgment against Israel that would involve the destruction of Jerusalem and rebellious Jews being cast into the fires in the valley of Hinnom (not that all URists believe Jesus prophesied such, of course) - part of the reason for this being their ostensible emphasis on fearing what God can do to an individual's body and soul following death.

Someone once told me that his understanding was that the unrighteous Jews would have insult added to injury by having their bodies flung onto Gehenna at the judgment of 70AD or thereabouts, but that didn't sit entirely well with me because I found (still do find) it hard to fathom why the idea of their body being unceremoniously thrown onto an earthly Gehenna, undesirable though it likely was, should have troubled them far more than the idea of their body being dumped (or buried) elsewhere, given that they would be dead by then whatever and therefore not experiencing any more pain (unless their suffering was indeed to continue beyond their physical body's demise).

Thoughts?

[WhiteWings]

Being thrown in a garbage dump means the person had a useless life. Added nothing to Isreal/humanity. The person was just a waste of resources. To westerners that means nothing. I once had a Chinese colleague and he told me that it was very important to them to get the male offspring to get the family name carried on.
So while you are right its a dead person has no clue where he/she buried/cremated it still seem to very much on their mind while alive.

:dontknow:

[Tom]

Though these appear not to be among the verses quoted most often by ET preachers to "prove" their position, they are the ones I personally find hardest to reconcile with the notion that Jesus' warnings about Gehenna pertained to an upcoming, 1st-century judgment against Israel that would involve the destruction of Jerusalem and rebellious Jews being cast into the fires in the valley of Hinnom (not that all URists believe Jesus prophesied such, of course) - part of the reason for this being their ostensible emphasis on fearing what God can do to an individual's body and soul following death.

Someone once told me that his understanding was that the unrighteous Jews would have insult added to injury by having their bodies flung onto Gehenna at the judgment of 70AD or thereabouts, but that didn't sit entirely well with me because I found (still do find) it hard to fathom why the idea of their body being unceremoniously thrown onto an earthly Gehenna, undesirable though it likely was, should have troubled them far more than the idea of their body being dumped (or buried) elsewhere, given that they would be dead by then whatever and therefore not experiencing any additional pain (unless their suffering was indeed to continue beyond their physical body's demise).

Thoughts?

"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28)

"28 The soul is the seat of sensation, but is popularly confounded with the spirit. A soulish man is one who is swayed by his senses. He may even be sensual, for such is the usual rendering of Jas.3:15. Those of the apostles who were killed later will lose nothing in the kingdom. Their souls will be surfeited with joy in that day. Their death will only add to their soul's delight in the resurrection. They, however, who come under God's judgment in the kingdom will not only have their bodies destroyed in the vale of Hinnom, just below Jerusalem, where the offal of the city was incinerated, but they will miss all the joys which their souls long for in the millennium. The martyrs who die for the sake of the kingdom have nothing to fear. So far as their souls are concerned, death gives them an immediate entrance into the delights of that earthly paradise, even though at their martyrdom it was thousands of years in the future." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 24)

"4 Now I am saying to you, My friends, be not afraid of those who are killing the body and after this do not have anything more excessive that they can do.
5 Now I shall be intimating to you of Whom you may be afraid: Be afraid of Him Who, after killing, has authority to be casting into Gehenna. Yea, I am saying to you, of this One be afraid!" (Luke 12:4,5)

"4 Gehenna, the valley of the son or Hinnom just below Jerusalem, is the place where the refuse and offal of the city was burned. In the kingdom the bodies of criminals will be cast into its flames. The distinction here drawn is between the believer, whose death, especially if endured for the Lord's sake, will make him eligible to a high place in the kingdom at the resurrection of the just, and the rebellious, who, even if they should be in the kingdom, will suffer its stern condemnation. The enemies of Christ can kill, and thousands will be slain as witnesses to the truth, yet their act has an effect exactly opposite to what they intend, for it enhances the felicity of the saints in the resurrection. Not so with those whom He executes. They forfeit the joys of the kingdom." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 114)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

[sheila]

it is alwys the corruptimage in all men that are destroyed..'this body undergoing this death"th

  new heaven,new earth...I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW...I will put anew spirit inthem..and write

my laws intheirminds andhearts....new wine innew vessel...the wine is the newheavens.....

  the new earth is the new 'winebag/vessel"

       and He died for for ALL...that....those who live should no longer live for themselves...

but for himwhodied for them and was raised again.  So from now on we regard " no-one"


        from a worldy pov. Though we once regarded Christ inthis way,we do so no longer


        the body ofsinin all men/body of death/body of corruption..was sentenced todeath in all men

     [the dust shall returnuntothe earth from which it was taken]but the Spirit shall return

  untoGod who gave it...this is ALL MEN...so thus..Paul..saying turnsuch a one over unto

  Satan forthedestruction ofthe flesh....IN....ORDER...THAT...THE...SPIRIT...BE...SAVED...

ON...THE...DAY...OF...THE...LORD


    Now as for....'dying ye shall not die" spoken from the adversary.....who with evil motive

spoke that word.....God..even through satans malicious intention..usedit for thegood of man....

   for the Lambwas slain before thefounding ofthe earth.  And God used this opportunity for HIS

GLORY ndto make a beautiful name for Himself....and He says...'Death where is thy sting?"

  O'Death!  I shall be thy plagues!I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE![do you beleive this?]

HE WHO BELEIVES IN ME WILL LIVE,EVEN THOUGH HE DIES![satan;dying ye shall not die]

AND WHOEVER BELEIVES IN ME SHALL NOT DIE.....

   Now the people worshipped Molech and Baal by offering theirchildren inthe fire[valleyof Hinnon]...and indeed

the offspring of vipers burn theirchildren inthe fire...foritis the corrupt image that burns

it's childreninthe fire.  But the True God..does not..itnever enters Hisheart to burn Hischildren

infire.....and...His children are not consumed in flames...... this is shown in the parable of

the wheat and tares.....in theburning bush..........

   Now,ALL men have bore theimage of thecorrupt one..and so too..shall all men bear theimageof

the incorruptible oneSH shall boast...and fleshandblood can notinheritthe Kingdom

  when He comes...Heremoves all things that cause stumbling..allthings that cause sin........


    now...the impending judgement was coming onJerusalem...her apostasy andsins were

  before the Lord..she was sent John to repent..and the son..to deliver fromthe coming judgement

  to notonly have eternallife inthe age tocome..but to have life more aaaabundantly now.

    those who repented and accepted those sent tothem..were saved from the coming

wrath/judgement onJerusalem..and were i8nstructed to flee to the mountains...that they not

perish in thecity.   Unrepentant Jerusalem..put to deaththose sent with the message of

reconciliation...repentant beleivers weresaaved from the wrath of God..onthis earth..inregard

toGod's coming judgement on Israel.

  now a worldly pov is Israel/Jerusalem..is cursed of God..but Paul revealed...aallIsrael will

be saved..........  andanother worldy povis all mankind that dies without Christ Jesus at the coming

  of the Lord..in judgement..at the conclusion/consumation...are also the cursed of God...and that

is no more truth..then Israel..cut off forever........the thing is...they werehanded over to satan

for the destructionoftheirflesh..in ordernot t blaspheme...and indeed these

many stripesofjudgementthat come uponthem...is the chastisement of the Lord that they not

be condemned with the wicked[satan] butthat theirspirit be sved inthe Day ofthe Lord.

   the Lorddisciplines those Heloves......

   now your soul is your body vessel/house/temple containing your mind,heart ,spirit......andis

precious to God..that the vessel should be a vessel of honourwith His spirit residing in it...

  His mind..His thoughts..dwelling in man[God with us]  You lose your soul..whenthe abominaation

  evilcontrast spirit..presents itself in you as God.......andcauses desolation..it destroys the

temple of God/your body..and bring corruptionanddeath to it.

   Now Jesus was sent unto the 'lost' sheep of Israel...they had lost their spiritual identity as unto

the thoughts/heart likeness of God inthis world..as a peculiar nationto represent His likeness

onthe earth.......andoffspring of viper /religious phariseeswere sittinginthe temple  usurping

and showingthemselves full of hypocrisy and deaad mensbones[no life inthem]

    Repentance andthe Holy spirit was offered of God to save the 'lost' souls/sheep of Israel

that they mayenjoy ''communion' prayer and again bein peace with God.


The Holy spirit token..is thesaame...'identifying mark' of the recoveryof lost souls...of which

theidentifying natureof God dwelling in man...and acknowledged inChristbefore theangels[book of

life]  if the life of God's nature is notin you..the lamp of life has goneout..and you are dead

eventhough you walk around yet inyour flesh.

   Christ come to relightthat 'candle'..the light of Life..Good'slikenessandimagein man/sonship

  now this perttains to this realm...and vesselsof wrath/vessels of mercy..and theiridentifying

  marks.   this during the good/evil exercize[tokogae]of this realm...however...at the consumation

andtheendofthis 'system/exercize'  and man that formerly bore animage of the corrupt/vessel

of wrathidentitty...shall also bear the image of theincorruptible. andthose that bore the

image of God as vessel of mercy  and suffered for His names-sake shall be rewarde3d.

....there is the free gift..andthere is 'reward'...............

...in the former arrangement  good/evil..it pleased God to use both positive/negative examples

of men..to show forth His Glory.  Inthe next realm...all the evil contrast shall not beseen.....

  in neither angels,men,animals....for God shall be 'All' in All...only His nature and likeness

  inthe immortal realm.  The time of the enmitybetween the seeds...their corresponding 'marks]

representing natures...shall have come tothe consumation...no longer a mix of good/evil...

  but that which is'PERFECT"[you must be perfect as your Heavenly Fatheris perfect]..and

  God'snature andnly God's nature shall be in Hisfinished creation.

   that which was lost shall be found, that which was scattered,shall begathered....

   that which was dead/lost shalllive...prodigals shallreturn home...all things that cause offense

sinstumbling shall be gathered out....

     It haas not beenman's will who shall serve as either good or evil inthis realm..inorder that

the choosing not be dependant on man,but on the choosing and willof God.  For who

makes youdiffer  from another?

    and so here we are at the consumation of the age andthe beginning of that which is eternal

   just as the law covenant[good/evil] and the better covenant..in Jesus day........[immortality]

....and trying to wrap our minds around these Glorious revelations in regard to God,Jesus

andthe deliverance of the creature.