Are all religions Manmade, and can they really save?

[Universalist Catholic]

Both Sects in Christianity along with Non-Christian Religions.  It seems like every Religion thinks they have mastered the way to Salvation.  Catholics claim that through the sacraments can one achieve salvation, and can achieve it easily if they pray Rosaries.  Calvinists claim that salvation is for a select few, most likely only the onese who endorse Calvinism.  Evangelicals claim salvation is only possible if one has their approved born again experience, and accepts all the rules their church requires.  Jehovahs Witnesses believe salvation is only possible to those who follow JW principles.  Jews, salvation is only possible if you observe the Mosaic Law.  Muslims believe salvation is only possible to those chosen who observe the laws of the Koran and the teachings of Mohammed.  Hindu's believe one can only attain salvation by special enlightenment.  Ancient people, salvation is only possible if you perform rites a certain way, and sacrifice to the right 'god'.  Yet, in all these religions, salvation is something done by works on our part.  If you do it the way we prescribed.

[peacemaker]

"They cannot all be right; but they can all be wrong."

peacemaker

[Beloved Servant]

lol

[sheila]

   Just as with the former ritualistic religion of the jews...there were many man-made rules,regulations..etc..that often nullify the Word of God on the matter.  IMO many 'christian' religions  have followed the same practice/pitfall. These do not enter the Kingdom and seek to prevent those that are entering.

When the 'word of God'via Holy spirit comes in our flesh..and is in conflict with the teachings and doctrines of men.The Word of God is to take precedence,imo.Nevertheless,just as the disciples expierenced,church leaders can become very irate over it.

  NO MAN can save himself..even Christ called out to God

for deliverance. Hebrews 5;7  During the days of Jesus life on

earth,he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and

tears to the one who could save him from death,and he was

heard because of his reverent submission

[CHB]

Look at all the good works that Jesus did and yet he had to suffer and die. God didn't award Jesus for all the works he did while he was here. That tells me that works mean nothing to God.

CHB

[rosered]

Look at all the good works that Jesus did and yet he had to suffer and die. God didn't award Jesus for all the works he did while he was here. That tells me that works mean nothing to God.

CHB

I do believe CHB that all them  ''good works ''  were Christ being obedient to Gods will aka  desire
 
and God is not pleased with works of mens  hands / vainity

  the whole point is to Honor and glorify God  , them works do please the Father  that is walking in the Spirit of His holiness
  to me
 

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

:HeartThrob:

[Universalist Catholic]

But according to scriptures, we have already been saved by Jesus Cross, but some find salvation earlier than others.  But it sounds like Eastern Philosophy teaches the same concept of "no one left behind".  Yet they teach against Organized religion, and Dogma.  But most world religions teach that God(s) offer Salvation, but only by following some rigid rituals in a span of 70-100 years, or you miss the mark if you get it wrong, and your screwed(Annihilation) like the Egyptians belief, or everlasting Torment.

[SteveW]

Evangelicals claim salvation is only possible if one has their approved born again experience, and accepts all the rules their church requires. 

What you say about evangelicals isn't offensive, but I think that it is a pretty gross mischaracterization.  Evangelicals are off the mark in some dramatic ways, but I think they are pretty consistent in saying that salvation is by God's grace alone and through faith in Christ and his work.  The emphasis is consistently far greater on believing the right thing, not on having the right experience.  The "rules" in terms of salvation are about beliving the right thing, not behaving the right way.  I am blessed to attend an evangelical church with the following "what we believe" statement (in part):

"We hold to the belief that:
In essential beliefs, we have Unity (Ephesians 4:4-6)
In non-essential beliefs, we have Liberty (Hebrews 12:1)
And in all our beliefs, we show Love (I Corinthians 13:2)

We hold to two scriptural, essential truths;
that Jesus is the Christ, the savior of mankind through His death, burial, resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of God in Heaven, and,
that the Bible is the supreme authority as our guide to Christian faith and service. We seek to speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent. The following statements are based upon our understanding of Scripture and are the basis for living the Christian life as a community of believers."

They then go on to list some "non-essential" beliefs.  I like it because I can fellowship there in good conscience even though they are not universalistic in their outlook.

[jabcat]

Very good post, Steve W.  In my understanding, being given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior and Him giving the spiritual rebirth (born from above, born again) is not some sort of sectarian belief.  It is the message of the scriptures.  It is for Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, atheists..  It's the Good News, that Jesus' death and resurrection assures that all will be called and chosen - each in his own order.  "If I be lifted up I will DRAW (drag) all men to Me".

Jesus said "marvel not when I say you must be born again".  There are many things added to that by EVERY group and denomination of which I'm aware - some scriptural, some not.

[Dallas]

Both Sects in Christianity along with Non-Christian Religions.  It seems like every Religion thinks they have mastered the way to Salvation.  Catholics claim that through the sacraments can one achieve salvation, and can achieve it easily if they pray Rosaries.  Calvinists claim that salvation is for a select few, most likely only the onese who endorse Calvinism.  Evangelicals claim salvation is only possible if one has their approved born again experience, and accepts all the rules their church requires.  Jehovahs Witnesses believe salvation is only possible to those who follow JW principles.  Jews, salvation is only possible if you observe the Mosaic Law.  Muslims believe salvation is only possible to those chosen who observe the laws of the Koran and the teachings of Mohammed.  Hindu's believe one can only attain salvation by special enlightenment.  Ancient people, salvation is only possible if you perform rites a certain way, and sacrifice to the right 'god'.  Yet, in all these religions, salvation is something done by works on our part.  If you do it the way we prescribed.

That's all so true. That is the major difference between religon and what the bible teaches what God says. All religon whether it be Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Judiasm, etc... and even those religions with five people all say the same thing, "We are included and you are excluded and if you want to be included this is what you must do. But what the bible teaches is, Everyone is included and it's all already been done for them.


That's what so important to understand, we are all included, we are all NOW included and are all now in all ways completed by what Jesus has done. No one is better or more along than anyone, we are all equal and we will all always be as such. No religon can offer this or a way to get this because it's all been done and has included everyone, even those who don't even want have been included.

[SteveW]

That's what so important to understand, we are all included, we are all NOW included and are all now in all ways completed by what Jesus has done. No one is better or more along than anyone, we are all equal and we will all always be as such. No religon can offer this or a way to get this because it's all been done and has included everyone, even those who don't even want have been included.

Dallas, what you have written are tremendous statements of faith and for that I commend you, even though, as I think discussed on a different post, I wouldn't go as far as you with the whole egalitarianism thing (I believe that God's goal isn't to make us all the same, that diversity in every way, including maturity, influence, authority, reward, etc are all part of the beauty of His Kingdom).

However, if you are using the Bible as the source for your statements, and particularly Paul, don't you think you might want to balance what you are saying with the concept that while we can rest in what Christ has done and the assurance that it will be brought to completion, there is a gap between the fulfillment of that and what we experience now?  That, for me, is not only Pauline, but experientially beyond refutation.  All I have to do is get up in the morning to know that I am not in all ways complete and that the effects of the curse are very alive and well!

SteveW

[jabcat]

Amen Steve.  The provision made, the sacrifice paid, yes.  But how many scriptures are there that indicate a process - both of individuals being called and chosen (new birth) and then the growth of sanctification from there?  Many.  It can certainly be a challenge to take into account and reconcile all scriptures, as much as we are able.  Still working on it   :bigGrin:   :thumbsup:

[Dallas]

That, for me, is not only Pauline, but experientially beyond refutation.  All I have to do is get up in the morning to know that I am not in all ways complete and that the effects of the curse are very alive and well!

That's because that's what you believe is happening. You believe the curse effects you therefore it does. Just as Jesus taught the issue isn't anything but belief. In the garden lack of belief caused it and fullness of belief ends it. You just haven't recieved permission to allow yourself to believe it all.

If I am a king but believe that I'm not but instead a homeless man, I will live in alleys and eat from garbage cans....even though I'm a king. Now a person comes along and says hey aren't you that king who is missing? The bum will not believe it. Now a limo pulls up and says the same and wants him to acompany them so of course the man goes. He is brought into the house were he is cleaned and given servents, but still his insides are fighting the whole experience. Many years later and his confidence in who he is has grown and he now has come to believe that yes this is who I am.


My question, you see process, however, wasn't he always a king? Wasn't it lack of belief that prevented all things? And as we see the "process" wasn't the building up of the man into sanctification rather the tearing down of his false beliefs?

Even as a bum wasn't he that king and the fullness thereof?


Indeed he was, but lack of belief kept him eating out of garbage cans...that's right, the king eating garbage, but fully king none the less.

[SteveW]

What if you are the king of the garbage dump outside Cairo, Egypt?  Then you will probably still be eating trash even if you are aware you are a king.  I may be destined for a throne of glory, but last time I checked I live in a fallen world still subject to decay that Christ has not yet purified by fire and made new.  Do you think the world you live in has been brought into the glorious freedom of the chilcren of God?

Dallas, I'm really not sure how to communicate this.  I live in a physical body that is still subject to frustration, decay and ultimately death.  It is a very real part of who I am as a person and no amount of faith is going to change that.  You can tell me that I am no longer subject to the effects of the fall and curse because Christ has defeated them (that seems to be what you are saying), but I have yet to see anyone else yet conquer death by faith.  In fact, even those who have tremendous faith for healing and claim "by his stripes we are healed" still somehow get sick sometimes.

As far as the sin nature or flesh goes it is the same thing.  I can believe with complete and perfect faith that I am God's child, but the reality is that God's child still lives in a body of death and no amount of faith is going to change that right now.  My mind is physical and tends to be as subject to the effects of the fall and curse as the rest of my body is.  Sure the more centered I am, living by the Spirit instead of always in my mind, the more I act and think like God's child.  That is a matter of dying to and putting to death what truly does currently and actively exist, my flesh.  That is done by faith but it is a process of transformation.

Faith isn't some magic key that makes what is real and tangible disappear.  Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.  Faith by definition has hope included.  You can have tremendous faith, and it seems that you do, without denying the reality that you live in a fallen world and in a fallen physical body (including your brain) and that it at times pretty much sucks in comparison to what we hope for.  The restoration of all things and the ultimate destruction of sin and death is still a future hope worthy of our faith.

In fact, I'll end with this scripture I refered to earlier:  "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.  Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.  For in this hope we were saved.  But hope that is seen is no hope at all.  Who hopes for what he already has?  But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."

[Dallas]

What if you are the king of the garbage dump outside Cairo, Egypt?  Then you will probably still be eating trash even if you are aware you are a king.

Because that was the point of the example right... :thumbdown:

As far as faith goes, you will never have enough faith for anything, I will never no one will ever have enough faith, that IS the point. You seem to be still thinkning that one day after you die you will become perfect, your faith and behavior and all results you will have nothing but a perfect result.... that my friend is a fairytale dream.

Faith has been perfected, Jesus' faith. That's the faith that I have that makes me perfect. Behavior is not the test, the more God's childlike I can become is not the goal because behavior doesn't get perfected and your behavior will never be as Him.

That's not what is inportant, behavior is simply a result of what is going on inside of us or a group of events that cause an effect. Jesus explained to us, His kingdom is not of this world, it is no here nor there so don't go out and look for it, for it's inside of you.

You aren't going to die one day and go to heaven, the kingdom isn;t a place where you live, the kingdom is peace joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. The kingdom is what is alive in you. That's how it is alive here and now, not becuase of my faith but becuase of Jesus faith, for what is impossible for you and I and even great miracle preachers is possible for God, and that even means your perfection while here and now.


1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

116.Colossians 1:28 
We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.


117.Colossians 2:10 
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

[SteveW]

What if you are the king of the garbage dump outside Cairo, Egypt?  Then you will probably still be eating trash even if you are aware you are a king.

Because that was the point of the example right... :thumbdown:.

No, but it was my point using your same analogy to represent my view.  The reality is we may be kings in God's kingdom but we still live in a fallen cesspool of death.

I almost give up on trying to discuss this because we seem to come from such different perspectives but I'll give it another try.  I'm not sure if you are or not but I'd ask that you try not to polarize and try and state what your are saying without hyperbole and using scripture as a basis, if you are willing.

I have a couple of points/questions in response to you:

1.  Help me know where the Biblical concept of Christ's perfect faith you mention prominently is found because I just can't come up with it.  Is that a Biblical concept or one you just believe in?  It is heavily supported or something you draw by inference from a passage or two?

2.  How can you read the NT and say behavior is not important?  Clearly there are many, many passages that contradict that statement.

3.  Do you believe that there is a literal future judgment for all men and that we will be rewarded (or punished) for what we have done?

4.  I'll just summarize my view just for my own sanity.  I believe that the kingdom of God is both here and to come.  That we have not received and do not experience the fullness of it yet and that seeing it come to complete fruition is my future hope.  So while I am not waiting to experience it and dwell in it (I understand it is here now) I am waiting to experience it in full measure.  I believe there are many passages that proclaim both to be true and that we shouldn't ignore one set for the other.

I leave you with this passage, which has long been one of my favorites:  "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known.  But we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.  Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3).  Again, future hope, present process, just like the Romans 8 passage mentioned earlier that talks about a future hope of the sons of God being revealed.

[lizzybeth]

I personally believe that religions that teach that God is love were probably inspired in some way by God, but maybe not totally. But I believe that about all religions. I don't think anyone has all the answers. I usually just ask Jesus to not let it eat me up inside because I'm one of those types that likes to know everything about everything... *now*.  :grin: