Hardens whom He will vs freewill

[marie glen]

I'm sure we've all heard or read many times how God will indeed lose so many, because He will not cross their 'freewill'!

But Romans 9:18 busts this idea :robinhood:

  Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.  Berean Study Version

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-18.htm

It's obvious we're not robots, unable to think and reason and thus make choices, when we get to them - that would be the other extreme, thinking God alone acts.. How much more able! He can let choices other than His own on this planet, exist and run their course.. all the while using all things for, and toward all of our greatest good! :faint: One who has to hold everything with an iron fist is not really strong! (The iron rod of the Lord is truth, which cannot be broken. It ruling will be a totally good thing!)

But for now He hardens whom He will.. and has mercy on whom HE will.. Ro. 9:18. That definitely does not jive with the doctrine that says God will not (or cannot?) cross a puny human 'will'..

[rosered]

  YES , sis  Marie  soooooo  true !!!   :dsunny: , but I believe a lot of our choices are done in ignorance  , when you go into somthing without a clue  of the outcome .

  Many call it being headstrong/stubborn ,hard hearted  lol   :laughing7:  I always think of Peter   for some reason or even my own  silly  struggles.

I am now learning to wait on the Lord  , there is no doubt   we can  be stubborn  in our ways  and  harden our hearts   or God can harden us [remain stubborn ] also till the Light is brought  out in  every detail   for all to see  it unfold .

  I was thinking  how many times  do we react  to somthing without all the facts in place  and made a fool  ha ha  , because we were wrong !!  wrong about that  for sure . I have seen many of good and stubborn  folks  not budge and it turned out  for the good of all , but mercy is always  allowing that person a reprieve , till they learn   a better way .
I see it on Facebook all the time   in those memes   .
  Mostly  silent  these days on there   because , as the world turns    , like some  soap opera  with play actors   putting up   reasons for arguments .

Its like a  court in session     whom can we trust , but in the Lord  because He never fails to show us  how precious the truth really is  and what it means  to us all in the end .      :friendstu:

[sheila]

we had no choice about being born..we all came into being because of His will alone. I have no reason to doubt His

kind intentions towards all men.He has declared His love,power and authority over all things.He has said 'YES"unto ALL men..

and'NAY"unto satan and demons....[Matthew 5;37anything beyond this comes from the evil one] :2c:

    God granted Jesus to have life in Himself..and the commandment was unto life..for all men..that they should be raised up

in His image and likeness.Man's covenant with death is annulled...no more agreeing with the devil that man should die an eternal

death..separated from God..but that man shall leave this body of death behind and return unto the Father and be ONE with HIM. :2c:.

[sheila]

 :2c:the hardened heart is satan[Pharoah/Prince of this world]who will not let His people go.Jesus spoke in the garden..when asked

Whom are you seeking.?..I am He...then LET THESE GO....but the dragon pursued the woman..and allthose who havethe testimony

of Jesus.

[guest6088]

This is where I might lose you guys because I have far deeper thoughts on this that seldom few agree with or seem to understand.

Firstly...Life IS Love IS God...

God breathed His spirit (Himself) into Adam (mankind). 
Eve is 'mother of the living' (human).
Thus we 'humans' have 'God's spirit' inside us.  (I and my Father are one).

If we have God's spirit we are then 'part of God', thus: 'Our will IS God's will' on a deeper level.
I believe this is where all the confusion comes from that we have or don't have free will.
We do and we don't but we really do!  ... It's a contradiction that can only be understood spiritually.
We can only understand it when we realize we are PART OF GOD.  I'm not saying WE (as individuals) are God but ALL of us create the ALL.
...It's really rather obvious when you think about it.
God is Father of ALL (us).

Thus; If 'God' 'hardens us' then it is us hardening ourselves...Some might say their 'higher self' (God) (But still 'them').
This is how God does not force. 
In an intelligent universe all parts must work together in harmony or it just wouldn't work. 
A kingdom can't be divided among itself or it wouldn't exist (couldn't stand) (and the universe has been around for a few years now lol)...All parts must be in agreement operating together for the common good (the good of all).  This is why we see 'cycles' in nature, day and night and seasons etc....Harmony.

Gregg Braden a spiritual scientist talks a lot about how 'order'/harmony is the natural 'order of things' (not competition).

The Near Death Experience can no longer be denied in light of the growing evidence and having studied thousands of NDE's over the years myself (and my own grandfather having one (he saw Jesus btw); MILLIONS of experiencers claim to have been sent back by God, or some say 'by themselves' or 'their higher selves'.
Some say a being of light judged them, others say they were judged but they were judging themselves.
We are not separate from God but are rather a part of that entity...All humanity coming together as ONE to be united to create ALL.  (God). ... Like a big cosmic orchestra. (God all and in all) we all work together...It's EVERYONE or NOTHING.  This is why I believe in apocatastisis and what brought me to it in the first place over 20 years ago.
We all stand together like in that Paul McCartney song lol... Nobody gets left behind... If one loses we all lose...

We do have free will, but at the same time it's God's will...ALL of it.  (And ours at the same time...)
If we play the lottery tomorrow its our will AND God's.  If we win the lottery tomorrow it was our will (on a deeper level (because we had something to learn from it to help us 'grow) and God's will.  God can work out all things in accordance with his will because his 'subjects' (us) are in agreement (it doesn't always seem like it but we agreed all this initially it seems (according to thousands of near death experiencers).
This is a mystery few can grasp I believe, and words can't convey this...God is above our human nature and can see all things and clearly...
It's like...Someone might fall out with their mother.  They might think they fell out with their mother of their own free will (God's will), but nobody REALLY wants to fall out with people.  Division isn't healthy for anyone...it's a destroyer so nobody would 'willfully' choose it (if they could see the bigger picture/had greater spiritual understanding).  A day comes when we realize what sin is and we no longer want a part of it.

You call our will 'puny human will' and it seems so because we are but a small part of the ALL (everyone who has (or ever will exist) on Earth).  What we experience is for the good of all... Its not just about us... Sacrifices have to be made...
As I say...we all must work together for the common good.  - There is a plan.  Heck... We have to get along forever lol.
This is why NDE'rs are sent back to complete their noble task in life. 
Life is not about 'us'....Life IS our fellow journeyers...our neighbours...they ARE our life.  We are each other.
...It's like when someone passes away and people say: "He/she was my life"...And so they were...I can't get over my grandads death...It's like a part of me left with him...In fact I know it did because I felt it go...A part that I'll never get back until we are reunited IN GOD/LOVE/THE LIGHT/ALL THAT IS.

The day my grandad died I knew he was dead because I felt him leave and I turned to my friend and said 'my grandad is dead' and then the door knocked and it was my relatives saying...."Pop just died".  For sure I knew he was dead...I felt him leave! We're connected in love.

If God 'hardens our hearts' it's because we 'deep down' know we need it. We resist as suffering isnt pleasant... Ahhh but afterwards.... We are in agreement with it even if we don't realize.  I wanted to turn from sin a while ago...I was being a rather nasty bstard in many aspects of my life and knew i needed to change as I was DESTROYING myself and my family...BUT I didn't know how...The HIGHER ME knew, but I didn't...I was lost in confusion...unable to access the 'spirit of love' within...I had to rekindle it and suffer to have it rekindled...Then I could understand more, see clearer and make changes...I'm not quite there yet...I'm still suffering but I'm better...  I see now I was simply 'lost'...Not a 'bad' person really (in so many words)...Just 'lost'...angry...upset...crushed by the world...  How else could I respond reall in my condition?

This is why people who have been made disabled or suffered from depression etc etc are usually always GLAD things happened the way it did because it 'taught them something' or 'made them better, happier more loving people'...

Marie you said 'we had no choice about being born' and that we all came into being because of His will alone...
On the contrary, having studied thousands of NDE's, the overwhelming point they make is that we CHOSE to be born.  We chose this life...Left our 'true home' to come here to complete a mission and we can't leave (because we agreed to it) until we check out at the correct time.  Again...Our will is God's will (On a deep level and in 'THAT' realm (which we cannot yet see or understand).
It's interesting how nobody who dies really ever wants to come back, saying that (the other side) is their true home (where they belong).  Nobody ever seems to have any disagreement with God about the way things are.  "Things are perfect" they say.  "It all made sense". (God and man (when man understands God) is in agreement) because we are part of God).  Even when we go through a trying time or an NDE'r suffers a life review and a bit of 'correction', the expriencer knows it was for their own good, just as we realize later on.  Not pleasant at the time but afterwards it is worth it, just as in a gym we need resistance to build muscle.  Peter had resistance when Jesus told him he would deny him 3 times.  Peter didn't think he would but when the resistance was against him he did.

Now someone can be a 'good person' (humanly speaking) and still murder someone...Say someone breaks into your home one night and tries to murder your child...Do we let that happen or do we stop such a person even if it means killing them (to save our childs (or any innocent persons' life).
Say a 'Hitler' wants to take over our country, kill all our countryfolk, our friends and family and then us...Do we just 'turn the other cheek?' or does such a person (physically) need to be stopped (for the good of all?).
So humanily speaking we have choices to make for the overall good of everyone...Just as God flooded the world for the good of everyone (eventually).
Sometimes we make a wrong or a right choice in this existence but we are only acting on the 'wisdom/current knowledge' we possess at the current moment.  But the higher truth is 'WITHIN US' (God's spirit)/God and we 'rise above' our 'flesh' when we act according to spirit. 

The Kingdom IS within...Bob Marley put it like this:
"There is a voice inside everyone talking to everyone and if you listen good you will know the right way".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuE7aKmU3kg

God works ALL things out for those who love Him and who loves Him?  ALL do.
Those who don't 'think' they love God simply have a false idea of who God is.

GOD IS LOVE.  And everyone loves love...  They just don't know/realize it (yet) in their 'fallen' condition... They 'hide' from God...covering themselves up. 

When we hurt someone else we hurt ourselves.  When we do good we do good to ourselves.

I hope this makes sense to someone lol. 

This is a small revealing of these things as I understand them, but hopefully as a whole we can uncover the mystery!  Please critique and let's talk about this very important subject.  I'm well aware my knowledge on this is imperfect and am happy to have it challenged to attain higher truth so question it and let's see where it goes!

Love you all.  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

I agree with some of that Marc, but not all. But I've yet to meet anyone I agree with on all things.. :laughing7: Not yet anyway.. though I believe we will all meet there! In it's time..

And amen sisters..

And life is Iove is life, is God.. totally agree!

I always remember how Jesus when still here, prayed for us believers to be one as He and the Father are one.

And how love is the fulfilling of the law, so sharing one's thoughts doesn't involve division.. or ridicule or anything like that.. Though it sure can in some places :mshock: (bless their hearts.. I had pure hate directed towards me once for adding a smiley to my, what I thought, friendly comment. :OhNo: )

All things that we believe, and understandings we have, I figure if true, I can find my idea or theory somewhere in God's Word.. and until then it's just theory to me.. my own and other's..

And if I disagree with someone, it doesn't bother me.. I figure one day we'll know exactly what's true and what maybe isn't.. And until then we don't know!
:gsmile:

[guest6088]

I agree with some of that Marc, but not all. But I've yet to meet anyone I agree with on all things.. :laughing7: Not yet anyway.. though I believe we will all meet there! In it's time..

And amen sisters..

And life is Iove is life, is God.. totally agree!

I always remember how Jesus when still here, prayed for us believers to be one as He and the Father are one.

And how love is the fulfilling of the law, so sharing one's thoughts doesn't involve division.. or ridicule or anything like that.. Though it sure can in some places :mshock: (bless their hearts.. I had pure hate directed towards me once for adding a smiley to my, what I thought, friendly comment. :OhNo: )

All things that we believe, and understandings we have, I figure if true, I can find my idea or theory somewhere in God's Word.. and until then it's just theory to me.. my own and other's..

And if I disagree with someone, it doesn't bother me.. I figure one day we'll know exactly what's true and what maybe isn't.. And until then we don't know!
:gsmile:

:Peace2: Much of what i wrote can't really be understood in words Marie, I'm certain if we were to sit down together and talk it out we'd probably find more similarities between our beliefs than not.  Words can't really convey what I really believe...These things are hard to explain but I did my best.

Was there any part of what I wrote you were very opposed to which you felt was totally wrong?

It's ok...I'm like you, I don't fall out with people.  I seek truth and realize I could be wrong at anytime and am willing to be corrected.
I believe we know 'in part' (we all have a slice) we all have strengths in certain subjects.
So...Feel free to challenge me!  I want to hear where I might be wrong.

[marie glen]

What a truly nice post.. And I think you are very right.. I'm already agreeing more than I was, because I remembered that I've come to the point of being able to believe that those who are saved may be conscious during death. Whereas the not yet saved, I believe are "silent in the grave (sheol)". Because God said, "ye shall die" and it was the other voice that said "surely you won't die?"

Yet Paul says in 1 Cor. 15 we shall put on immortality at His return, when is the resurrection of believers. :dontknow:

So I'm still unsure of the state of believers after death.. the verse about believing thus will never die, actually says a form of the word aion..

And Jesus said the day is coming when all in the tombs will hear His voice and rise, some to a rising of life, and some to a rising of judgment (imo, review - all fiery judgment I think of as earthly, last one being Armageddon and not afterlife).

Most believers, iincluding here at tentmaker forum, believe, I think, in a conscious state during death.. or separation of soul from body.. but I think we are a living soul and our bodies will be made new.. no more decay/corruptibility... Which nature too awaits and will share in that newness and lack of decay..

I don't know what I think of heavenly visions.. I believe they take place in our mind, not that we leave our body.. But of course I could very well be wrong.. After all Paul wrote about such a vision, and he said whether it was in the body or out he didn't know. ...Though I haven't that I remember, looked up the interlinear word for word translation of the verse..

It's s secondary issue to me. And it's the idea of inherent immortality, before-being-saved, which I think of as the reason for the idea of a place for unrepentant folks to go to after life or for eternity.. And in beliefs of the nation's, where the 'bad' go after death.

Am i making any sense? Lol. I can believe in immortality bestowed by Jesus and our faith in Him.. but for the not yet saved, to me, doesn't seem true..

On visitations from loved ones who have passed on, I lean toward thinking angels do the communicating.. having known the 'spirit' of the person.. which is just a poetic way of saying, knew the person.. That God comforts by sending angels to communicate something of the loved one who had passed on..

Of course, I may find out I'm wrong about it! And everyone does indeed have an immortal soul as it's called.. are naturally or inwardly immortal.. even without believing in Jesus..

I do agree we are all in a way a part of God.. or better yet He is a part of us. But I also believe perishing and death are very real potentials. Although God is not going to allow that. Perfect cannot lose anything!

Yet without His intervention, I think anything imperfect, cannot endure, but is under the law of imperfection and death. That God being life and perfection, makes it natural law that imperfection can only ever be the opposite of life.

This, actually, is what I believe we (humans and angels) are learning. Life from death. Perfect from imperfect. Good from evil.

I think He engineered the fall.. And, engineered it so all in heaven and Earth would take this unavoidable journey (lesson) all together, at once.

So of course the remedy was built in too.."Christ Crucified from the foundation of the world".

But maybe these visions (NDEs) are just that, visions.. but are feelings.. and they are filtered through that person's own psyche and beliefs..? So who's to say what ones are more accurate than others..? Maybe they don't have to be accurate.. but just assurance sent or drawn from God's Spirit which is love.. feelings received that everything's okay.. filtered through that person's beliefs.

Though I guess the hellish ones would be a different thing! But still, I think, from that persons own fears.. or even demonic threats/lies..

I believe there's true and not true in all things.. Or most things I should say. :laughing7:

I am totally sure we all agree on far more than not fully agree.. Especially the basics, that whatever comes before.. or however it unfolds, in the 'end' God will be all, and in all.. And all will be perfect because God who is love will rule.. Openly and totally.

And that makes us brothers and sisters who can happily live with not yet seeing all things eye to eye.. On this side of life, actually, everyone totally lock step can be rather spooky..   :Chinscratch: must be a balance there somewhere. Even in the world/reality to come, we won't be clones of one another.. :eek: (imo :laughing7: )
:Peace2:

[sheila]

I agree with a lot you say,too.But,He has 'forced' me  to love at times.People..and even a dog! That dog was so irritating.My neighbors

dog yapping barking allthetime..it always relieved itself in my yard.would try and bite my grankids when they got out of the car

eat the crumbs I set out for the birds.and my neighbor was cantankerous too.My poor old housecat got out once and she took a broom

to it. She also informed me that they set out poison for cats.In a moment of spitefulness I put a correctol in apiece of hot dog and

placed it on my porch.Of coarse my heart started beating me.Iprayed about it.Next thingIknow,my neighbor is gone all the time

on the truck..and I am walking,feeding and toileting her old dog.all the time..for almost 2years. She quit barking all the time..

got to liking the children in the neighborhood...and I come to love her very much. when she become ill from old age..and my

neighbor had to put her  down...I grieved for her.I guess you could say I hardened my heart..but I feel He forced me to love her.

It was really the only remedy..for a full repentance and reconciliation. Love was the only way to overcome the situation.

since Love is our true nature..hardening our heart brings discordance...then 'forces'must move to bring us back in harmony.

Now,I know we were with Jesus from the beginning..but as far as if we were in agreement[choice] to be born down here IDon'tKnow

cause I know of a sister that  has a memory of being upset when she found out we were going to all have to wear'dirt suits"

and tried to run and hide.

I can'tdolinks..but'I AM A WOMAN IN LOVE"by B Striesand comes to mind..."WE planned it all at the start,that you and I would   live in

each other's heart...and'with you eternally mine..in love there is no measure of time" :girlheart:

[guest6088]

Am i making any sense?

Yes because you are being honest.  You're a seeker like me and not afraid to say so and happy to be corrected in light of new evidence which is how things should be.

Of course, I may find out I'm wrong about it!

I love your honesty and open-mindedness. 

But maybe these visions (NDEs) are just that, visions.. but are feelings.. and they are filtered through that person's own psyche and beliefs..? So who's to say what ones are more accurate than others..? Maybe they don't have to be accurate.. but just assurance sent or drawn from God's Spirit which is love.. feelings received that everything's okay.. filtered through that person's beliefs.

It's a huge subject, one i've researched for many years.
Some nde'ers see dead people they had no way of  knowing were dead (and this is proven to be accurate), so these are real occurences...'true' occurences, not just wishful thinking etc.
Atheists have the experiences also, further proving they aren't just wishful thinking or 'you get what you believe'.
That said I believe there is one truth but we do perceive that in many ways as some see a being of light, an angel (with or without wings), Jesus, Buddha etc...But it's the 'essence' that is important...People see the essence of this being and then put a 'label' on it...Just as a child might look at a pen and think it's some sort of implement for sticking up their nose lol...But the fact is that the pen is still a pen however we see it.
There are a lot of fake NDE's...  And it's usually the 'mainstream' ones.  (Surprise surprise).  The great thing about this era is we can do research online about the authors of these books...Did they really goto that hospital they said they did...Did the doctors there really verify the experience, were they really a doctor, were they in debt at the time...All these things can be found out which paints the experience 'DR' Eben Alexander had (for example) in a pretty bad light (he was being sued by three of his patients at the time for forging medical documents and hadn't practiced medicne for yeras previous to his experience).
What I'm saying is that we have to 'test' things to seek the truth.  As I say I have studied these matters for years and wouldn't share what I didn't believe to be true and If i ever discover I've said anything that isn't true I'll admit to it right away and sort it out.

Though I guess the hellish ones would be a different thing! But still, I think, from that persons own fears.. or even demonic threats/lies..

The hellish experiences mostly are fake from what i've studied.
Any 'hellish' (true) experience seems to do the person good because it made them realize what was wrong in their life and gave them the opportunity to sort it out, such as the case of Clint Walkers' NDE (old western star).  He said he realized he hadn't done what he came to do and asked God if he could return to have another go at it and was permitted.

Anyway...You're right... It's great we have some differences...otherwise what would we talk about eh lol?  God didn't make two snowflakes identical so the same applies to humans...Individuality is important as well as oneness.

:)