God's Will

[Seth]

Just to be clear, I am in no, in NO WAY, fearful of God giving me "free will." I agree with this statement: "When you obey because you want to you are free." Yet what I believe is that God CAUSES us to want to obey, by reducing the power of the lusts of the flesh to obey him. God cuts the cord of the flesh to our mind, and we become obedient. Then he continues to water us so that his conversion of our souls is all his work and not our own.

God keeps his converted. The devil CANNOT deceive the very elect, because God chose them from before they were born.

It's not that I am afraid of having too much freedom. One aspect we are not discussing is the Dragon.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How much does that VERY subtle deception affect the will of man who is not kept by God? That is why even after initial salvation we depend on God to grow us. If we are vessels prepared for destruction, we would most likely become "brute beasts" as Peter put it. You can tell by the fruit.

[eaglesway]

Just to be clear, I am in no, in NO WAY, fearful of God giving me "free will." I agree with this statement: "When you obey because you want to you are free." Yet what I believe is that God CAUSES us to want to obey, by reducing the power of the lusts of the flesh to obey him. God cuts the cord of the flesh to our mind, and we become obedient. Then he continues to water us so that his conversion of our souls is all his work and not our own.

:iagree:

[micah7:9]

Jesus did not say to Peter, "When you choose to be converted, strengthen the brethren".

He said, "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren".

Peter did not convert himself, nor did I indicate that he did. :o)

A process of trials and tribulations- failures leading to brokeness(a broken and a contrite heart) designed by God caused Peters growth into a "converted" man.

By "coonverted", Jesus was not talking about salvation. He was talking about brokeness. Peter was saved already. He had confessed Jesus as Lord and Jesus had said to him, "Man did not reveal this to you" and "You are all clean because of the words I have spoken to you".

My point was not that we choose to be converted. My point was that once we are converted(broken, yielded, submissive) we are free.

When you obey because you want to you are free. So many people are so afraid that perhaps God may give believers a little freedom. Why? Do we not trust Him? Do we not know Him, and His ways? Hav we not been discipled of Him? Perhaps not. Fear has torment.

For freedom Christ has set you free. The one whom the son sets free shall be FREE INDEED. - Not in theory, or in itsy bitsy fearful increments.

Our mother is the heavenly Jerusalem who is FREE.

We are growing into freedom because our hearts are coming into oneness/union/harmony with Him- not so we can glory or take credit.

Freely you have received freely give.

Can one not be free and humble and submissive to the will of the Father at the same time? Of course one can. Grace as provided the faith to do so and to God be all the glory, and Christ, who is the fountain through which this freedom flows.

God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself by love- and there is a sentence where "free" and "will" can be used together for sure.

I am amazed that so many can only see absolute extremes when it vcomes to this topic. It is a mystery and a matter of degrees. A paradox hidden in the language of scriptures. A single coin whose two sides seem opposed to some but are actually united as one by the only union there is. Love.  That's the place where all mysteries are resolved.

We are called, chosen and elected- to be conformed to the image of Christ- WITHIN. Jesus was free, like the wind that blows where it wills....WHAT! SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.(Jn 3:8)

How else can we bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.  :cloud9:

"Peter was saved already." EW
I would question that. Should Peter have been saved-made whole-healed, then he imo would have ascended to heaven and we know that is not so.

"My point was not that we choose to be converted. My point was that once we are converted(broken, yielded, submissive) we are free." EW

Free do what? What we desire? What we want? Free how? We are still in the flesh and you know what the flesh desires.

"When you obey because you want to you are free. So many people are so afraid that perhaps God may give believers a little freedom. Why? Do we not trust Him? Do we not know Him, and His ways? Hav we not been discipled of Him? Perhaps not. Fear has torment.
For freedom Christ has set you free. The one whom the son sets free shall be FREE INDEED. - Not in theory, or in itsy bitsy fearful increments." EW

That freedom you speak of, now, when the Spirit is operating in you, is not your freedom it is the leading of the Spirit that has cleaned your thinking and now you free to yield to that energy.

"God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself by love- and there is a sentence where "free" and "will" can be used together for sure." EW

Listen to yourself, "GOD WILL FREE YOUR WILL FROM THE FLESH....." when that happens I believe you are now yielding to His Will and the will of the flesh you were born with is suffocated. I know you didn't mean "God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself...." Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.


This in my opinion, your opinion is a stumbling block.... "I am amazed that so many can only see absolute extremes when it vcomes to this topic. It is a mystery and a matter of degrees. A paradox hidden in the language of scriptures. A single coin whose two sides seem opposed to some but are actually united as one by the only union there is. Love.  That's the place where all mysteries are resolved."

My friend, should it be LOVE, then one's will, belongs the One who is love, and one cannot perform love outside of his Will.

"How else can we bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.   "
There you go, "HOW ELSE CAN "WE"..." here is a news flash WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING, unless it is HIS WILL. He was, is, and will take full responsibility for All that His creation performs. :HeartThrob: :2c:

[eaglesway]

If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:

[micah7:9]

If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:

Really? If Peter was saved he would have been complete just as Jesus was complete. EW we are all human beings until the finale and the saving is complete, finished. Peter was imo, a fisherman, who was chosen to be a disciple and when converted was an Apostle. He was still a man/human in the working in the plan of salvation. He hasn't made being saved.....yet

[Seth]

Peter does mention that baptism is our salvation  by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, likening that to the Ark. Paul also says that we were reconciled by his death and how much more so having been reconciled shall we be saved by his life. EW, you are right, Peter was cleansed by the words Jesus spoke, but I see that as being cleansed from falsehoods. I think the salvation process really started at Pentecost for him.

Peter's method of sharing the gospel was to say repent and receive the Holy Spirit and be saved from this wicked generation. I think Peter needed that as well.

[Tony N]

Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."

[Tony N]

If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:

I don't get that either.
Why would Peter ascend into heaven? He remains on the earth and will sit on one of the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel with the other 11 apostles in Israel during the Millennial reign of Christ.

[dajomaco]

How is this done? Is there a verse of scripture?
"We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit  of Life or the spirit of death."



Jer 17:9  Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
Jer 17:10  I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Mar_7:21  for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22  covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23  all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.

I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,

Then the LORD instructed Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and say to David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am offering you three choices. Choose one of them for yourself, and I will do it to you.'"
11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes with the sword of your enemy overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD—a plague on the land, the angel of the LORD bringing destruction to the whole territory of Israel.' Now decide what answer I should take back to the One who sent me."
Who is the man who fears the Lord? He will show him the way he should choose.

Because they hated knowledge, didn't choose to fear the Lord,

[micah7:9]

If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:

I don't get that either.
Why would Peter ascend into heaven? He remains on the earth and will sit on one of the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel with the other 11 apostles in Israel during the Millennial reign of Christ.

My point which I now see I posted wrong. Peter was still alive and in the process of being saved.

[Seth]

If I understand you correctly, you meant that ascending to heaven is the endpoint of this life long process of being saved, the final shedding of the flesh. If so, I see it the same way.

[micah7:9]

 :Peace2:

[Tony N]

How is this done? Is there a verse of scripture?
"We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit  of Life or the spirit of death."



Jer 17:9  Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
Jer 17:10  I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Mar_7:21  for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22  covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23  all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.

I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,

Then the LORD instructed Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and say to David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am offering you three choices. Choose one of them for yourself, and I will do it to you.'"
11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes with the sword of your enemy overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD—a plague on the land, the angel of the LORD bringing destruction to the whole territory of Israel.' Now decide what answer I should take back to the One who sent me."
Who is the man who fears the Lord? He will show him the way he should choose.

Because they hated knowledge, didn't choose to fear the Lord,

As for "choosing life," they thought they were choosing life but in fact the law is death chiseled in stone.  Of course they didn't know that at that juncture.
But one must ask: what caused them to choose whatever it was they chose? Was their choice totally free from cause? But even after they chose, Joshua told them they cannot serve the Lord.

I think God put it in David's heart to choose the right thing out of the three choices.

[dajomaco]

I think God put it in David's heart to choose the right thing out of the three choices.

Why did God want David to believe he had a choice ?

[dajomaco]

I believe to love the Lord with all of our heart.

We must somehow believe we chose to love him.
Even though we know we have no free will in this area.

We can have faith that somehow we have freely chosen to  Love Jesus.
We can ignore the reality that it was not our choice.

[Seth]

I believe to love the Lord with all of our heart. We must somehow believe we chose to love him.

Some folks think that, and I respect your difference of opinion. But my awe at how God is able to execute his plan without fail and with perfect foreknowledge, reminds me of how great and vast he is compared to us little humans. And then I add to that how he loves us regardless of our smallness. That makes me love God all the more.

I don't have to think that I freely chose God in order to love him. That's just me personally.

[dajomaco]

If you believe in hell you can Love Jesus because he kept you out of hell.
Or if you don't Love him he will sent you to hell.

People say they Love Jesus. In reality they can't.

If I say Jesus loves me. This is a statement of fact.

I'm called to love God .
I have to believe that it is possible.

[Seth]

If you believe in hell you can Love Jesus because he kept you out of hell.
Or if you don't Love him he will sent you to hell.

People say they Love Jesus. In reality they can't.

If I say Jesus loves me. This is a statement of fact.

I'm called to love God .
I have to believe that it is possible.

Of course it's possible. God caused you to love him by revealing himself to you. As it says in the Bible "We love him because he first loved us."

[eaglesway]

Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."

I hav always said I believe in calling and election. What I differ with is the I believe God gives a measure of freedom for the purpose of discipleship and a stewardship that grows into total freedom through total unity with God. This based in my belief(based on how I read the scriptures) that God created us for fellowship, and desires interaction, love, exchange of being with others who have chosen to be a part of what He is, Who He is, and what He is doing.

No man can give birth to himself- that is a given(in my paradigm). However, once God has caused us to be "begotten by the word of truth unto a fervent love of the brethren", and whlie He is always intimately involved, He gives us choices and we make them- He may know the choice we will make, but unless we have some freedom to choose- to much of the language of scripture would be just frivolous posturing. As I said once before- God creates a bubble within a bubble within a bubble. There are different dynamics at work in each level, as we progress from one to the other- but the scriptures acknowledge them all, and the paradigm at work in each one (life in time, wthin life in Christ, within God's overall creatve scope in eternity). To deny any of them is just theoretical theological head trips(imo). The simple language of scripture is clear enough to be accepted at face value, and as such, all these views are incorporated in the whole cloth of the truth.

[dajomaco]

The relationship of God and Man is a Love relationship.

As a man I cannot fathom how to create a being that would truly Love me.
If I gave that being free will,
I would have to wait to see if the being called me abba.

[dajomaco]

You are being renewed in knowledge according to the image of your[e] Creator.  11 In Christ[f] there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian,[g] slave and free; but Christ is all and in all.

[Seth]

The relationship of God and Man is a Love relationship.

As a man I cannot fathom how to create a being that would truly Love me.
If I gave that being free will,
I would have to wait to see if the being called me abba.

However, if that being didn't have anything within itself to love you back and say "abba" you would need to intervene by giving your own love and implanting it into the little being, thereby enlightening it to what true love is. That is what I believe is happening in scripture with regard to God's sovereignty.

[Seth]

We all have different views on why there are admonitions in the Bible. To me, the fact that there are admonitions in the Bible does not make for a clear teaching or suggestion of free will. "Clear" is in the eye of the beholder, a matter of interpretation.

What looks to be a clear suggestion of free will to someone, looks like a clear demonstration of something else to me. The admonitions, to me, do not suggest free will, but they set a standard by which we know God chooses his elect. In other words, the admonitions provide a guideline so that when God's elect are revealed to the world, we will know what makes them elect. We will know the work that God did from within them and how the elect obeyed the admonitions he gave because he caused them to obey.

And because they are elect, they cannot be deceived by Satan.

Why did Moses bother telling Pharaoh to let his people go, when God himself had no intention of allowing Pharaoh to do that? That wasn't posturing, was it? Everything that transpired went according to plan, step by step. It was to demonstrate God's wrath and glory upon vessels prepared for destruction.

Moses' admonition to Pharaoh set a standard that Pharaoh did not meet, so that when Pharaoh was destroyed, like the Potter molds the clay, the rest of creation understood the standard by which God chose to elect Pharaoh to destruction. The admonition was there as part of God's plan to demonstrate God's sovereignty over Pharaoh.

I believe in the fullness of time, we will see all the admonitions to the church to be in the same vein as God's admonition to Pharaoh. I believe we will find that some who heard them were vessels fitted for destruction, and others who obeyed them were vessels fitted for mercy.

[eaglesway]

The only thing that is clear is that it is unclear where the seam in the paradox is hidden and no one has it all figured out. it is not simple by any means. It is a mystery, and God intends for it to remain so.(Lest anyone boast)

For who has known the Lord and who has been His counselor and who has given to Him that He should repay....

[fullarmor2]

Wow!  Great discussion here folks. As of now, I've only read about a quarter of the way into these comments, but I intend to read it all. My bible study group just recently started studying this topic of the will of man scriptures vs the will of GOD scriptures. And attempting to understand both WITHOUT causing them to contradict each other. The way mainstream "free will" doctrine does. When I use to be mainstream, I remember looking at will of man verses without any consideration for the will of GOD verses! But now I have learned to understand the will of man verses in the light of the will of GOD verses and its awesome. Its the key to avoiding causing the scriptures to contradict on this topic.  For example. The verse Rom 10:13 that says, "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. I use to look at that and think that a person has to exercise their will the right way and call on the Lord in order to be saved. And people who don't,  failed to exercise their will rightly, and if they continue like that they will perish in ET.  But now, thank GOD, I look at Rom 3:13 with the light of other will of GOD verses! And I feel like I'm understanding it in the context of the rest of the bible and not by itself. Will of GOD verses like the one where Jesus taught that no one can know his truth unless its revealed by the Father. (speaking to Peter) Or, "no one can come to me unless the Father draws them".  Or Paul's teaching on the potter and the clay, and GOD making "vessels unto honor or dishonor". Not to mention GOD'S omniscience, omnipotents , and Omni-presence.  So now when I look at Rom 3:13, I understand that in order for a person to "call on the Lord" for salvation, its all because of GOD!