Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? ...
Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
I guess that should put to rest the idea of free will.
Doesn't that just take a burden off your shoulders? His salvation is His will, we can just rest in that assurance and enjoy the comfort and peace that brings. :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Absolutely! .."lest any should boast!" ...all His will,. His choosing, His election..
..and all His doing..!!
No particular verse cut out of the whole cloth "puts to rest" the idea of free will :o)
If I quote, "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve" and then follow it by saying, "I guess that puts to rest calling and election"- such a thing would be ridiculous, and of course- I believe in calling and election. I just believe that stewardship involves a measure of free will and that is how we learn to become "sons" of God- so that we can set the whole creation free into the "glorious liberty of the children of God". The reason the subject has been debated so hotly for 1500 years is because it is NOT as simple as anything that can be defined by one or two particular verses.
It is really all about love anyway. :dsunny:
:doh:
LOL
Quote from: eaglesway on July 22, 2014, 08:52:53 AM
No particular verse cut out of the whole cloth "puts to rest" the idea of free will :o)
If I quote, "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve" and then follow it by saying, "I guess that puts to rest calling and election"- such a thing would be ridiculous, and of course- I believe in calling and election. I just believe that stewardship involves a measure of free will and that is how we learn to become "sons" of God- so that we can set the whole creation free into the "glorious liberty of the children of God". The reason the subject has been debated so hotly for 1500 years is because it is NOT as simple as anything that can be defined by one or two particular verses.
It is really all about love anyway. :dsunny:
Hi eaglesway,
The Bible does say mankind has a will. It is called the will of the flesh (John 1:13, Eph.2:3).
Now then, the "choose ye this day whom you will serve . . . " is important. Even though they said "all you say we will do," (after all, that was their choice), Joshua told them they cannot serve the Lord.
Why not? The flesh is at enmity to God and cannot please Him and is not subject to His law (Romans 8). So the will of man may be free to a certain degree but it certainly is not free to please God, do His law etc. I guess you could say mankind's will is free to oppose God. But that is actually bondage because man cannot break out of that bondage to please God unless God frees them.
Man has a will. Man makes his own choices. It is not free in the true sense of the word "free", independent of God.
In defiance of God, no way!.
Tentmaker site has a number of good articles on this most fundamental question.
Here is one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/ForceOrFreeWill.html
Quote from: joeteekay on July 25, 2014, 08:18:53 PM
Man has a will. Man makes his own choices. It is not free in the true sense of the word "free", independent of God.
In defiance of God, no way!.
Tentmaker site has a number of good articles on this most fundamental question.
Here is one:
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/ForceOrFreeWill.html
For the disposition of the flesh is death,
yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God,
for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God. (Romans 8:6-8)Mankind's will is the will of the flesh. That will is at enmity to God and not able to please God.
One BIG AMEN from this one! :dsunny:
Hi Tony,
I kno my position is unpopular on this, and I never claim to have the paradox completely fathomed. However, as I see it, the heart of man chooses to be "in the flesh" OR "in the spirit". IMO on some level man has a will that can choose between flesh and spirit, or the exhortations of the scriptures are play writing. That's just my opinion, but thats how I see it. A lot of interpretation and allegorizing has to be done with the simple language of scripture for it to be otherwise.
I understand that " it is God who is in you to will and to do of His good pleasure," so in now way hav I ever said that the will of man is completely free. However, at present the language of scripture has me convinced that there is a stewardship of freedom given, the exercising of which brings rewards(more of God) and penalties(less of God). The end of successful stewardship is the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"- a place in the priesthood and authority of benevolence for mature sons of God.
To me this is the "has", in to him who has more shall be given.
"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart and you shall find rest for your souls". A simple exhortation, of which there are many, which calls to discipleship and requires a free choice in order to progress as sons. This to me is, "overcoming".
Of course I understand that everyone has reached there respective positions on this throu careful study and meditation. I do not disrespect anyones view on it, as it is a mystery in my opinion. My own views require the full satsfaction of the common language of scripture on all sides of the question, and as yet I am not convinced that the position you advocate does so.
We make a lot of choices based on how we are feeling.
God's will is not affected by our feelings.
How we feel about God's will.
We seem to have complete freedom in this area.
"However, as I see it, the heart of man chooses to be "in the flesh" OR "in the spirit". EW
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
1Co 12:3 wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps, I again have misunderstood your statement.
Man, in Genesis made a choice, a choice caused by God for His purpose, man's choosing's has not changed, nor can man's choosing change until Joh 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
Only then can man choose and then in choosing (imo) is caused by the WILL OF GOD, to do His Will.
Man's will has been to sin, man's will is to sin, man's will cannot change, until man is drawn, and then man's will is of God. Man on or for his own, cannot... will... freely, to choose God.
And yes of course it is my opinion that I am given to understand. :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 25, 2014, 09:44:41 PM
"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart and you shall find rest for your souls". A simple exhortation, of which there are many, which calls to discipleship and requires a free choice in order to progress as sons. This to me is, "overcoming".
Here is my question though, why does it require FREE choice in order to progress as sons. I understand it requires a choice, but why a FREE choice? Can't God work sovereignly through the choices made by men so that his elect is all of his own making?
My mind is convinced that it can make choices.
I can comprehend that I choice to ask Jesus to help me.
I did this as a free choice.
I can apprehend that God willed that I make that choice.
When God's will and my will are the same, I am conforming to God's will.
When God's will and my will are not the same, I am not conforming to God's will.
God's will is past it is already done.
How can my will affect something that has already happened .
Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2014, 10:40:50 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 25, 2014, 09:44:41 PM
"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart and you shall find rest for your souls". A simple exhortation, of which there are many, which calls to discipleship and requires a free choice in order to progress as sons. This to me is, "overcoming".
Here is my question though, why does it require FREE choice in order to progress as sons. I understand it requires a choice, but why a FREE choice? Can't God work sovereignly through the choices made by men so that his elect is all of his own making?
In my opinion it is a matter of opinion/emphasis/perspective :o) As I said before, I understand the theory on all sides of the question. I just am loathe to embrace explanations that go beyond(or do not fulfill) the language of exhortation in the scriptures and the accountability they entail. If I am wrong about that in due time I am sure the Holy Spirit will allow me to see it- but in the meantime I personally do not go beyond what is written, and since I see elements of all of these theories in the writings, I believe there are elements of all of them in the whole cloth of the truth. I do not feel the need to fully understand something to the extent that I must sacrifice scriptures to resolve issues.
The reason I think there is a stewardship of freedom is because the scriptures use that language. A study of the words freedom and liberty, stewardship and discipleship- indicates to me that freedom is an important element of relationships in general, with God in particualr, and as sons, stewards and disciples in application. :o)
Of course we all make choices. But are those choices really free from causality?
Example: Someone chose to quit smoking. What caused them to quit? Was it the fear of getting cancer? Was it the constant coughing and hacking at night? Was it the high price of cigarettes? No choice is uncaused, hence, not free in the truest sense of the word.
Here is another example from Scripture:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh.
Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
Suppose you choose to do something as simple as go to town to sell things? Is that really a choice free from causality? James suggests it isn't:
Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there,
and we will be trafficking and getting gain-" who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor
are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-" instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and
we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that." Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked. (James 4:13-16)
Per the above, if you die you surely won't be able to go to town and sell your things. And just as powerful as death is, the Lord's will is just as powerful. If He is not willing
you won't be going.
So why are there so many entreaties in the Scriptures to do the right thing? These entreaties are what the Lord uses to get us to do the right thing.
Often when Jesus told the Jews to do this or that it was to prove to them they could not do it to show their inabilities and thus trust in the Lord. This is also why the law was given, that the offense would increase (Romans 5) and to lead them to Christ (Gal.3:24). It was not given and told to do because the Lord thought they could do it. They were told to do it to show they could not do it.
Quote from: Tony N on July 25, 2014, 11:27:00 PM
Of course we all make choices. But are those choices really free from causality?
Example: Someone chose to quit smoking. What caused them to quit? Was it the fear of getting cancer? Was it the constant coughing and hacking at night? Was it the high price of cigarettes? No choice is uncaused, hence, not free in the truest sense of the word.
Here is another example from Scripture:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh.
Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."
Suppose you choose to do something as simple as go to town to sell things? Is that really a choice free from causality? James suggests it isn't:
Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there,
and we will be trafficking and getting gain-" who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor
are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-" instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and
we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that." Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked. (James 4:13-16)
Per the above, if you die you surely won't be able to go to town and sell your things. And just as powerful as death is, the Lord's will is just as powerful. If He is not willing
you won't be going.
So why are there so many entreaties in the Scriptures to do the right thing? These entreaties are what the Lord uses to get us to do the right thing.
Often when Jesus told the Jews to do this or that it was to prove to them they could not do it to show their inabilities and thus trust in the Lord.
I agree that the overall causality in all things is God. I also believe God, within His overal causality creates parameters of freedom for growth into friends, disciples and stewards of God. He seeks FELLOWSHIP. IMO, He is teaching us to walk with God.
And, if I decide to sell some things, He is not concerned, as long as commerce is not my god and greed for gain my motivation. Even if it is, He might allow me to live so- I will answer for it on the Day- as James expounds.
For me, this passage confirms my view.
I also believe many entreaties are to show us our inability- so that we will turn to God for the ability/grace/spirit to do so. I have no ability without Him, yet He asks me to turn to Him and trust Him- and His grace is in all of it- even the supply of grace/faith/spirit with which I believe and turn. Nevertheless, IMO He allows mea measure of freedom so that I am not a forced lover, but a wooed one. This is the Bride. The expectant virgins hav extra oil. The indifferent one cannot arrive at the wedding feast because they lose their way in the darkness.
Therefore, let everyone await His appearing in a wakeful, prepared state. Watch, pray, be careful how youn hear what the Spirit is saying. To him who has more shall be given :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 25, 2014, 11:26:09 PM
The reason I think there is a stewardship of freedom is because the scriptures use that language. A study of the words freedom and liberty, stewardship and discipleship- indicates to me that freedom is an important element of relationships in general, with God in particualr, and as sons, stewards and disciples in application. :o)
But regarding the language of freedom, what I tend to see in the scriptures is that it's usually talking about freedom from sin, by being slave to righteousness, not necessarily free from causality. In Romans, he pretty much takes all the credit: 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8)
What I see happening is that when God gives a choice, he is essentially setting a standard, one that he is actually able to fulfill himself through his foreknowledge, predestination unto conformity to Christ etc, by acting through the choices made to bring about his plan, by his own influence. That is why our faith is not of ourselves, and neither is our conformity to the image of Christ. God carries his pre-chosen throughout the entire process, so that unlike Ishmael, the born Sons are by miracle of God's choosing, like Isaac.
So the Lord God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it.
And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Adam had free will in the Garden.
God allowed Adam to name every creature.
Adam named Eve.
We have free will in name only.
Quote from: dajomaco on July 25, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
So the Lord God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it.
And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Adam had free will in the Garden.
God allowed Adam to name every creature.
Adam named Eve.
We have free will in name only.
How do you know God didn't influence Adam to name the creatures what he wanted them to be named?
I don't see that. I would consider that, in some cases, an assumption based in systematic theology.
The freedom we are offered is way more(to mee) than freedom from sin. It is freedom to walk as John 3:5-8. The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you do not kno where it is going to or from whence it comes- SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
The consequence of freedom from sin is not the limit or the sum definition of freedom anywhere I can read.
Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2014, 11:47:42 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on July 25, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
So the Lord God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it.
And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Adam had free will in the Garden.
God allowed Adam to name every creature.
Adam named Eve.
We have free will in name only.
How do you know God didn't influence Adam to name the creatures what he wanted them to be named?
What would be the point of such a fruitless enterprise? :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 25, 2014, 11:49:21 PM
What would be the point of such a fruitless enterprise? :o)
To show how God works THROUGH man.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 25, 2014, 11:48:32 PM
I don't see that. I would consider that, in some cases, an assumption based in systematic theology.
The freedom we are offered is way more(to mee) than freedom from sin. It is freedom to walk as John 3:5-8. The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you do not kno where it is going to or from whence it comes- SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
The consequence of freedom from sin is not the limit or the sum definition of freedom anywhere I can read.
Romans 6:18
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
My whole point with the Adam and Eve response is that folks tend to say that the very fact that man has choices is proof positive in itself that man's will is free. We know from examples in the Bible where God uses man's choices to perform his own plan, that such an idea is not necessarily the case. Even if we can't see the purpose behind God giving a choice, then influencing the choice, doesn't mean it isn't happening. An example of a choice is not an automatic example of free will.
"The reason I think there is a stewardship of freedom is because the scriptures use that language. A study of the words freedom and liberty, stewardship and discipleship- indicates to me that freedom is an important element of relationships in general, with God in particualr, and as sons, stewards and disciples in application. :o)" EW
I can see and understand what you say, but how can there be a "is a stewardship of freedom" without the influence of the Holy Spirit? And if that influence is there would that not be the cause for the will of doing right? And if so then it is not I, but Christ?
I believe (imo) it is the Lords Will who causes the effect of my choices and I have and had many choices. I, as a man, His creation, was given a will. That will is not a "free" will it needs an igniter or cause to make a choice.
In Genesis man was charged not to eat of the fruit and until the Lord caused/allowed the woman to "see" it was all fine, the woman then chose freely to eat and give to the man. Without the Lord giving the charge not to eat, man's will was not his will but the Creator's Will, but the Lord caused a reason where the woman had to make a choice...she saw. This was HIS Will that the woman made a choice not her free will but from a caused situation that the Lord willed. Man's will is to sin it's his nature...man is carnal.
As you know I find the entire debate of man having a free will un- biblical. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 25, 2014, 11:48:32 PM
I don't see that. I would consider that, in some cases, an assumption based in systematic theology.
The freedom we are offered is way more(to mee) than freedom from sin. It is freedom to walk as John 3:5-8. The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you do not kno where it is going to or from whence it comes- SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
The consequence of freedom from sin is not the limit or the sum definition of freedom anywhere I can read.
God made you write the above. :laughing7:
Quote from: Seth on July 25, 2014, 11:47:42 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on July 25, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
So the Lord God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it.
And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Adam had free will in the Garden.
God allowed Adam to name every creature.
Adam named Eve.
We have free will in name only.
How do you know God didn't influence Adam to name the creatures what he wanted them to be named?
We have to take God at his word.
What effect would naming a creature have on that creature? Nothing
God agreed with himself that whatever Adam called the creature, was the creatures name.
This simple plan was the start of a relationship.
God allowed Adam's opinion of God's creation.
God said his creation was GOOD.
Adam named Eve GOOD.
Adam ate from the tree and knew the difference between Good and Evil.
Can we go back to the garden and call God GOOD
without the tree of knowledge and good and evil.
Yes when we eat from the tree of life.
Everything that is eternal is good.
Every good thing is eternal.
We will agree with God that God is Good.
Quote from: dajomaco on July 26, 2014, 12:58:27 AM
We have to take God at his word.
What effect would naming a creature have on that creature? Nothing
I have to challenge you on that. Your question doesn't have to do with what it actually says in God's word. It just has to do with you not knowing what the point would be of God influencing Adam. As I said before, God has established in the OT his willingness to influence choices and that shows how God executes his plans through mankind.
QuoteGod agreed with himself that whatever Adam called the creature, was the creatures name.
This simple plan was the start of a relationship.
God allowed Adam's opinion of God's creation.
You still cannot prove that God didn't influence Adam. That shows that an example of God giving a choice is not proof positive that the choice was executed by free will.
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 01:13:46 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on July 26, 2014, 12:58:27 AM
We have to take God at his word.
What effect would naming a creature have on that creature? Nothing
I have to challenge you on that. Your question doesn't have to do with what it actually says in God's word. It just has to do with you not knowing what the point would be of God influencing Adam. As I said before, God has established in the OT his willingness to influence choices and that shows how God executes his plans through mankind.
QuoteGod agreed with himself that whatever Adam called the creature, was the creatures name.
This simple plan was the start of a relationship.
God allowed Adam's opinion of God's creation.
You still cannot prove that God didn't influence Adam. That shows that an example of God giving a choice is not proof positive that the choice was executed by free will.
Well said.
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 01:13:46 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on July 26, 2014, 12:58:27 AM
We have to take God at his word.
What effect would naming a creature have on that creature? Nothing
I have to challenge you on that. Your question doesn't have to do with what it actually says in God's word. It just has to do with you not knowing what the point would be of God influencing Adam. As I said before, God has established in the OT his willingness to influence choices and that shows how God executes his plans through mankind.
QuoteGod agreed with himself that whatever Adam called the creature, was the creatures name.
This simple plan was the start of a relationship.
God allowed Adam's opinion of God's creation.
You still cannot prove that God didn't influence Adam. That shows that an example of God giving a choice is not proof positive that the choice was executed by free will.
The difference is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
There was no reason for God to influence Adam in regard to naming creatures.
How can you know that unless you are God himself??
I am not against the term 'freewill' per se, but it depends on how that word is being used. I look at choice in this way:
The only way a 'choice' (the result of the will choosing something) is ever made, whether consciously or not, is that the will, which may be likened to a metal object laying on the ground, must have at least one choosable thing placed near it. This may be likened to a magnet. The moment the magnet (the choosable thing) begins to pull the metal object (the will) toward itself, not only are you on the way to making a choice, but also, at the very moment it moves, it is instantly a slave of that magnet.
If you put another magnet on the other side, slightly stronger than the first, it will begin to pull the metal object away from the first magnet, toward itself. The metal object (the will) will be attracted toward the magnet (choosable thing) that has the greater pull. In either case, the only way a choice (the meeting of the metal object with the magnet) can occur is for that metal object to be a slave to the magnet.
The way freewill is often understood is that the will is free to move in one direction or another without any pull whatsoever. It would be like putting that metal object on the ground and putting two pieces of wood (choosable things) on opposite sides. In this case, there is no pull, and hence, no movement at all of the metal object, and thus, no choice being made.
A choice, as I understand it, inherently involves the enslavement of the will at any given moment to whatever it is attracted to, or is pulling on it the greatest, at any given moment. In this case, the will is indeed free to go in either direction, but the only way it can actually GO in any direction is to become a slave of what it is attracted to...as someone here pointed out from Paul...
Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness."
(Rom 6:18)
Ronen
Which leads me to understand man has the free choice but that choice is only considered if there is a cause. He does not have a free will, for free will MUST have a cause. The magnet in the example is the cause, without that pull a choice can not be made. For man, the creation, to have free will the ignition of that freedom MUST come from someplace, a cause, to have the effect of choice. Again my :2c:
CLV(i) 17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
In the original post, I was speaking specifically about God's will of Salvation; that it is His will , not ours.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? ...
Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
I guess that should put to rest the idea of free will.
In regard to our free will, and whether we can do anything of ourselves, or if our every action or even every thought is also God's will, is another matter.
Scriptures shows us the following regarding choice:
1Co_13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
2Co_10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
From EW's Reply; " I kno my position is unpopular on this, and I never claim to have the paradox completely fathomed. However, as I see it, the heart of man chooses to be "in the flesh" OR "in the spirit". IMO on some level man has a will that can choose between flesh and spirit, or the exhortations of the scriptures are play writing. That's just my opinion, but thats how I see it. A lot of interpretation and allegorizing has to be done with the simple language of scripture for it to be otherwise."
I beleive that the spirit has freewill of righteousness and to worship God, that is what the spirit does. Also, the flesh has freewill to do unrighteousness, that is what it does. But I think Eagle's Way gets to the "heart" of the matter; "IMO on some leve man has a will that can choose".
The flesh either surrenders to the will of the flesh, or to the will of the spirit. I think that "choice" is everyone's point of decision, from Adam and Eve to everyone that ever lived, lives or will live. (in stating this, I am, at this point, appointing the decision to the flesh)
One aspect that could be looked at is the Soul. For the spirit is of God, and the body of Flesh, but the Soul is the marriage of the two. And in Genesis, it states: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Afore, God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul; both the Spirit of God, and the Body of Adam; as one soul. Is that where the battle is? Is that where the choices are made? As the flesch is completely selfish, will it only yield (surrender) to the will of the spirit when it is to the flesh's advantage? What advantage then would the flesh have as to surrender to the will of the spirit? What about the only thing the flesh could never have, eternal life?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
I think therefore, that God work's his perfect will through man, by creating in man the ultimate desire, that which he could not obtain on his own.
Is it a choice, or is it just drama, and we all are just playing a role? For me, I favor the former. I think God works with his children, allowing free will within a set boundry, or parameters to allow for growth unto maturity. Our salvation is His alone, but we grow; from the play pen, to the house, to school unto all of the world. Our parameters grow and the choices we make grow as well.
I loved all the replies. There was a lot of good meat there.
I liked what you said, still the quagmire, "I think God works with his children, allowing free will within a set boundry, ..."
I believe and it is my humble opinion that much would be set at rest were we to use FREE CHOICE rather than Free will. Where in the Bible was free will given or established? Other than theology and religion I find no evidence of a free will. For me the Bible proves man has free choices, but to have free will, then what ever man does he does without the Will of the Creator, which in my opinion, leaves the Lord God Creator out of the equation and man in Genesis 3 was totally on his own and The Maker never had the entire situation in hand in the first place.
:iagree:
Although it appears that "choice" and "will" are closely related, however, God is in control and imo, it is His will to allow us to make choices, within the parameters he sets for us.
We haven't really even examined closely the implications of gods fore knowledge and man's choices and how that considerably narrows the parameters of man's apparent free agency
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 04:16:09 AM
We haven't really even examined closely the implications of gods fore knowledge and man's choices and how that considerably narrows the parameters of man's apparent free agency
That is deep, Seth!
I think we could look at the first parameter set, not allowing man to eat from the tree of life. That limited man to a temporal existence.
Consider Paul's conversion. God knew exactly when and where that would happen. What if Paul decided to exercise free will and drink some bad milk that day and stay home? No big deal right? Small actions not influenced by God? Would Jesus improvise and appear before him at his home? If so, then that would have been predetermined, because what God foreknows cannot happen any other way. None of Paul's choices escape the predetermination of God's perfect foreknowledge.
Jeremiah 10
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 04:24:07 AM
Consider Paul's conversion. God knew exactly when and where that would happen. What if Paul decided to exercise free will and drink some bad milk that day and stay home? No big deal right? Small actions not influenced by God? Would Jesus improvise and appear before him at his home? If so, then that would have been predetermined, because what God foreknows cannot happen any other way. None of Paul's choices escape the predetermination of God's perfect foreknowledge.
Jeremiah 10
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
:iagree: "...the predetermination of God's perfect foreknowledge."
God encompasses all things, including past, present and future!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 26, 2014, 04:12:35 AM
:iagree:
Although it appears that "choice" and "will" are closely related, however, God is in control and imo, it is His will to allow us to make choices, within the parameters he sets for us.
That's the way I see it too. :myahoo:
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 04:24:07 AM
Consider Paul's conversion. God knew exactly when and where that would happen. What if Paul decided to exercise free will and drink some bad milk that day and stay home? No big deal right? Small actions not influenced by God? Would Jesus improvise and appear before him at his home? If so, then that would have been predetermined, because what God foreknows cannot happen any other way. None of Paul's choices escape the predetermination of God's perfect foreknowledge.
Jeremiah 10
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
I entirely agree that God was in total control of Paul's conversion. My conversion was quite the same. I had an explosive experience with the Holy Spirit and saw Christ crucified and received a call to follow Him. I ran for about a year until I yielded to the call, and that was by grace as well. None of this interferes with the idea of stewardship over choices God allows us to make in situations He places us in. Arguments such as these are misdirected in terms of what I have expressed, in my opinion. They do not speak to the idea that God sets parameters in which we are allowed the freedom to obey or not, or sometimes even, to choose whether we will obey in one way or another, as we learn to walk with God, as we learn discipleship and stewardship.
Also, the parable of the unrighteous steward speaks to this. Jesus is saying, "This is the way, walk ye therein". If we choose to exercise a stewardship He has given us in self indulgent ways, "He that has not, even that which he has shall be taken away". These simple lessons require choices and the exercise of will and the exhortation is meant to lead us in the way of Christ. Therefore we are urged, "Let no one among you esteem themselves more highly than he ought, for to each one is given the measure of faith(Rom 12), and "Let each of you use his/her special gift in serving one another and thus be good stewards of the many faceted grace of God."
There is an alternative presented there. One can choose to serve theirself with their gifts, seeking the praise of men or wielding authority in a heavy handed manner. The accountability for these choices is clear.
Some will say, "God controled your unrighteous use of your gifts, and God controlled the righteous use another disciple exercized. I am not convinced of this, because the accountability for failure would be baseless and the reward for overcoming a play on words with no substance. Therefore I believe that the simple language of scripture is direct and true. Salvation is given freely by God's choice. Gifts are given freely by God's choice. God teaches His friends and His servants by allowing them to exercize grace BOTH in character and in anointing.
God has chosen us, and the appointed times of our salvation and reconciliation. Walk in the narrow way(between the easy answers and polar extremes).
But really, I do not want to belabor the point. I think we have all spoken well for our respective viewpoints, and as I said before, I believe there are legitimate elements of all these truths in the whole counsel of God.
Ultimately, whether my view is correct or the other view is correct- God is ultimately causing all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose, which is the reconciliation of all. In the meantime, while we await the parting of the veil until we know as we are known, we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. :o)
QuoteSome will say, "God controled your unrighteous use of your gifts, and God controlled the righteous use another disciple exercized. I am not convinced of this, because the accountability for failure would be baseless and the reward for overcoming a play on words with no substance.
Paul addressed this in Romans 9:
Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault?
For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing
to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath
prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon
vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
It reminds me of how Jesus exhorted his Jewish brothers according to the flesh to believe in him. But God blinded them and then they killed him. Why the exhortation if God blinded them? Why would the church even bother to preach to the synagogues if it was known that God was blinding Israel to bring the Gentiles in? If they believed, then Jesus would not have been able to be murdered for their sins.
I believe it is because God is demonstrating something as he says in the passage above. I believe the church preached to Israel even though they were sovereignly blinded by God in order to show the character of Christ in the rejection.
Of course I understand all of what you are saying. There are hundreds of verses on the matter. You are applying it in a way I do not see. God is not controlling our every choice in my opinion. He intervenes routinely in our lives, of course. He intervenes in history and exalts and abases whom He wills for His own inscrutable reasons, as Paul said. Somehow you see this as a doctrinal clarity that God never gives us any parameters of freedom with which to teach us and mature us as sons/stewards/disciples.
I do not see it at all in so blanket a way that you do, and I do not see the authroity in that verse for an idea opposing discipleship and stewardship.
What about the parable of the talents? What kind of an exercise in futility would that exhortation be in the scenario you are expressing :o)
There are too many verses being ignored in this view, so I don't agree with it. It requires to much wrestling with clear verses to invalidate what they teach and exhort for me to be comfortable with it.
I believe God is intimately involved in all our choices good and ill. And I also believe He gives us some rope in order to teach us. To me it is simple and obvious- at least at the present time ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 08:42:25 AM
I do not see it at all in so blanket a way that you do, and I do not see the authroity in that verse for an idea opposing discipleship and stewardship.
Nor do I, but I don't see discipleship and stewardship opposing the Romans 8:29 process either.
QuoteWhat about the parable of the talents? What kind of an exercise in futility would that exhortation be in the scenario you are expressing :o) There are too many verses being ignored in this view, so I don't agree with it. It requires to much wrestling with clear verses to invalidate what they teach and exhort for me to be comfortable with it.
I am happy to address any scripture. I don't believe I am ignoring any of them, but my explanation is here: Exhortations are there for God to demonstrate his will through man. God exhorted to Pharoah, let my people go. So the question the church was asking was, if Israel was not believing, just how Pharoah was disobeying, why does God punish. For, who resists his will?
The answer, is that God does so to demonstrate things. He exhorted Pharoah to let his people go in order to demonstrate his wrath and make his power known through Pharoah's disobedience. This is Paul's reasoning here. And he is applying it to Israel to answer the objection: If God exhorts, but his will cannot be resisted, how can he hold anyone accountable? Answer: to demonstrate.
The whole question of accountability in the face of God's sovereignty, Paul is addressing that question right there in Romans 9, specifically.
That still does not prove, imo, that God never steps back and allows us to operate in freedom as children in order to teach us who He is, and allow us to grow. That has been my whole point in all of these exchanges. At no time have I challenged the idea that God is Sovereign. I just reject the idea that His sovereignty precludes a measure of freedom for the purpose of learning discipleship and stewardship. Just because God hardened Israel, or Pharoah- does not automatically mean that He never lets us go, as in the parable of the prodigal, for instance. What is quite clear, is that we do not see the matter in the same way, and that is alrite- Jesus is Lord and God is our Father and the Savior of all. I think we agree on that LOL.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 26, 2014, 09:05:35 AM
That still does not prove, imo, that God never steps back and allows us to operate in freedom as children in order to teach us who He is, and allow us to grow. That has been my whole point in all of these exchanges. At no time have I challenged the idea that God is Sovereign. I just reject the idea that His sovereignty precludes a measure of freedom for the purpose of learning discipleship and stewardship. Just because God hardened Israel, or Pharoah- does not automatically mean that He never lets us go, as in the parable of the prodigal, for instance. What is quite clear, is that we do not see the matter in the same way, and that is alrite- Jesus is Lord and God is our Father and the Savior of all. I think we agree on that LOL.
Just to be clear, I know you are not challenging the idea that God is sovereign. We both agree on that, just in different ways. :thumbsup:
Does God step back and allow a certain amount of freedom? That's the question. I don't know what "stepping back" means though. Does that mean he doesn't know what you are going to do before you do it, even as he knows the very count of hairs on our heads?
Well, this is a bit out there but here goes LOL.... Can God make a bubble inside another bubble inside another bubble? Which bubble are you in?
My things is this. When our theology steps on someone who is speaking of being in the smallest bubble- a reality within realities created by God for our edification- we do a diservice to our brothers and sisters who are dealing with, or being dealt with, within that experience.
I can stand back all day saying "THERE" IS ONLY ONE BIG BUBBLE", but this is only partially tru, by God's design, who has me engaged in a smaller bubble of His own creation, for me, not you(generic)- the theologian. The scriptures addres all of theses differring levels as wheels within wheels and at any given point in time our theoretical approach may not be real for the person the scripture is speaking to in micrcosm rather than macrocosm.
Therefore, I dont see that we serve one another well when we preclude certain simple statements of scripture. They are meant for the microcosm. They do not negate the macro, but neither does the macro negate them. God has designed it this way to shave our pride and to always keep us off balance as we try to put bubbles in boxes and stack em on a shelf :o)
I prefer to say, "WHATEVER BUBBLE YOU ARE IN IT IS FLOATING WITHIN THE GREATEST BUBBLE OF ALL- GOD"S LOVE, IF THE BUBBLE YOU ARE IN POPS, POPS WILL CATCH YOU, UR GONNA BE ALL RITE! ;o)
Lol .. Bubbles. :gimmefive:
:gimmefive:
"Ultimately, whether my view is correct or the other view is correct- God is ultimately causing all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose, which is the reconciliation of all. In the meantime, while we await the parting of the veil until we know as we are known, we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. :o)" EW
To finish that verse, there is a coma or semi colon after verse 12 .... 12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,
13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.
I, me, personally accept what you are saying EW although I receive it as a "free" choice not a free will. :Peace2:
Yea. Free will is a theological term. I know James prefers man's will. I use free will because it seemed easier than always redefining new terms for it. Free choice works fine for me. I have always used "a measure of free will" but "a measure of freedom to choose" works just as well for me.
I feel like the symbol of the Bride, is about the freedom to choose. She may not choose her husband(betrothal's were not always free back in the day), but she chooses whether to love Him or not. My feeling is, if He chose her, and gave her the love to love Him, and then chose in her for her to love Him- then she may be His Bride but she will never be His lover.
Any man knows that the most satisfying thing about a woman's love, is that she gives it freely to the one she loves, out of a fountain that is her own wellspring. If she gives me back what was always my own because I willed it, again, she is not my lover. I believe God gives everyone a measure of "freedom to choose" and woos it like a lover(Song of Solomon) and takes great joy in the wooing and the winning.
:happyclap:
What is the difference between free choice and free will?
Free will 1) freedom of decision or of choice between alternatives 2) the freedom of the will to choose a course of action without external coercion but in accordance with the ideals or moral outlook of the individual. b) the doctrine that people have such freedom(opposed to Determinism)
Determinism the doctrine that everything, including one's choice of action, is the necessary result of a sequence of causes.
Free 1) not under the control of some other person or some arbitrary power, able to act or think without compulsion or arbitrary restriction; having liberty; independence.
Will 1) the power of making a reasoned choice or decision or of controlling one's own actions
Choice 1) the act of choosing; selection 2) the right, power, or chance to choose; option
So if the will isn't free, then how is the choice free? I guess that is my question.
I believe that would be found in the mind of Christ.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,
13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.
I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.
Also, if God has perfect foreknowledge doesn't he already know if Paul's admonition will be followed or not making their choices predetermined according to foreknowledge?
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:21:06 PM
I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.
If our will was free we would not be bound by choice.
There are only options. We can not will something that is not an option.
Started from the bottom up..................just talking.
:winkgrin:
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:21:06 PM
I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.
A choice is an option of two or more, to select. Now I am a man/human and I am told not to do something, I must choose to do or not to do, I have the will to do or not to do, but that will must have a trigger something that can cause me to make the choice. If my will to choose is free how can I choose when nothing is there to auction what impels me to make a choice?
Free 1) not under the control of some other person or some arbitrary power, able to act or think without compulsion or arbitrary restriction; having liberty; independence.
What is pushing me to choose? What is there to cause me to choose? I'm free to choose but I don't know which one is better or worse, nothing has caused me to make a choice.
I got it, I understand it, I believe that there must be a cause for every action, I don't choose without some cause for me to chose. I may not be able to put in understandable words.
The boys didn't just dump Joseph in a hole without a cause, they made the choice to dump him in the hole because of the Lord's will, He was the cause of their choice.
Did Paul of his own "free" will just decide to preach Jesus, he just road down to Damscus and just free willed, by gosh I think I'll just start preaching this Jesus instead of killing the folks who believe, or was there a cause that directed his choice?
Quote from: ed on July 26, 2014, 10:18:50 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:21:06 PM
I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.
If our will was free we would not be bound by choice.
There are only options. We can not will something that is not an option.
Started from the bottom up..................just talking.
:winkgrin:
Yes, something must cause us to choose or we would ennie minnie minny moe our selfs nuts.
A choice is made on the bases of a preference we have for something. It is the result of life experiences. I choose to buy a red car because I like the colour red.
The will we have is a desire for something. Our will may be for something good or something bad. Does not lust come from a desire? Reminds me of chaper 1 of James.
Just my :2c:
I think the greatest area of free will has to do with feelings.
God has overwhelmed the world with reasons to give thanks.
But as a matter of my free will I can thank him or not.
I give God a truly heartfelt thanks for this forum .
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:21:06 PM
I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.
In the followoing Verse, the word willing is used regarding the Lord's will. In the YLT, "counseling" is used instead of "will".
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If we were to substitute the word "choosing" instead of "willing", does that change the meaning of the verse? It would seems to move it from a definite act to and act of decision. Does God need to make a decision that any should perish? Or is it more of a declaration of a King?
The word "will" has many usages, but for this, I am presenting it as a declaration as apposed to a choice. Within that context, I think the difference between the two is manifested.
Does the word Counsel shed any more light on this. From Websters dictionary "...
b : a policy or plan of action or behavior"
From this, it would seem to indicate the same thing as "declaration", not as a choice. Put the word "planning" into the phrase "... not planning that any should perish". God's plan is that none should perish, so the same thought applies.
The difference is difficult to "see", but I think their is a difference between "will" and "choice".
Therefore, I don't think that man has his own will, his own declaration, or his own plan. I think that man is given choices within certain parameters in which to grow, as has been previously discussed. And as has also been pointed out, free will is not scriptural, but choice definitely is, a limited amount of free choice.
Oh there is definitely a difference between will and choice, I agree. The will is a capacity to make a choice, the genesis of choice and a choice is the selection of two or more options.
My whole question had to do with what a FREE choice vs a FREE will, and whether you can make a free choice without a free will.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 26, 2014, 10:37:15 PM
Quote from: ed on July 26, 2014, 10:18:50 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 26, 2014, 09:21:06 PM
I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.
If our will was free we would not be bound by choice.
There are only options. We can not will something that is not an option.
Started from the bottom up..................just talking.
:winkgrin:
Yes, something must cause us to choose or we would ennie minnie minny moe our selfs nuts.
My idea is that a choice starts with the will. If the will is influenced by the invisible hand of God whether it be to allow them to be subject to the devil or himself, then the choice looks free, but is not free, because the will is not free. That's just how I think of it right now.
Quote from: Seth on July 27, 2014, 05:34:22 AM
Oh there is definitely a difference between will and choice, I agree. The will is a capacity to make a choice, the genesis of choice and a choice is the selection of two or more options.
My whole question had to do with what a FREE choice vs a FREE will, and whether you can make a free choice without a free will.
"I am willing to make a choice." I just wanted to spell that out as a sentence so it would help for some clarification to me.
I still would think the same thing applies, that we are afforded a limited amount of free will to make choices, whether those choices are free or coerced.
Do we have free will to ultimately determine, or choose our salvation. I would say no. Do we have free will to do any one of life's mundane tasks? I would say yes. Does God sometimes direct us to do His will, such as calling Saul, or hardening Pharoh's heart? Indeed.
So my answer would be No. One cannot make a free choice without a free will. But I would also add, that our free will is limited, not authorized to go beyond the bounds given to it. I like EW's way he put it, circles within circles.
I guess this question will continue to be debated and it is a refreshing thing to discuss and exchange ideas about.
But is it and endless debate? So mcuh has been written and said about "choices" and "free will".
It does come down to a discussion on what is really meant by FREE :dontknow:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 27, 2014, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 27, 2014, 05:34:22 AM
Oh there is definitely a difference between will and choice, I agree. The will is a capacity to make a choice, the genesis of choice and a choice is the selection of two or more options.
My whole question had to do with what a FREE choice vs a FREE will, and whether you can make a free choice without a free will.
"I am willing to make a choice." I just wanted to spell that out as a sentence so it would help for some clarification to me.
I still would think the same thing applies, that we are afforded a limited amount of free will to make choices, whether those choices are free or coerced.
Do we have free will to ultimately determine, or choose our salvation. I would say no. Do we have free will to do any one of life's mundane tasks? I would say yes. Does God sometimes direct us to do His will, such as calling Saul, or hardening Pharoh's heart? Indeed.
So my answer would be No. One cannot make a free choice without a free will. But I would also add, that our free will is limited, not authorized to go beyond the bounds given to it. I like EW's way he put it, circles within circles.
Saint wallee,
I agree with you major points. But, I will just leave with a question or two
1. Do you believe that mundane events can lead to major events through a domino effect?
2. Do you believe God has foreknowledge of all your mundane tasks long before they happen?
Quote from: Seth on July 27, 2014, 06:17:04 AM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 27, 2014, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 27, 2014, 05:34:22 AM
Saint wallee,
I agree with you major points. But, I will just leave with a question or two
1. Do you believe that mundane events can lead to major events through a domino effect?
2. Do you believe God has foreknowledge of all your mundane tasks long before they happen?
1. Yes, the so-called butterfly effect.
2. Yes.
So for God to make sure that major events happen, like conversion, wouldn't he find it necessary to make sure all the dominos are aligned, even the mundane ones that lead to the conversion?
For the second question, that would mean that no choice is free from predetermination according to God's foreknowledge right?
I've found that the big elephant in the room in a discussion like this is God's foreknowledge and the implications that has with respect to free choices. Explanations range from straight up Open Theism, diminishing Gods power in that area, or really complex explanations to do with levels of existence, explanations I can't figure out what they mean.
Quote from: Seth on July 27, 2014, 06:26:44 AM
So for God to make sure that major events happen, like conversion, wouldn't he find it necessary to make sure all the dominos are aligned, even the mundane ones that lead to the conversion?
For the second question, that would mean that no choice is free from predetermination according to God's foreknowledge right?
1. My answer was "Yes" because of the question "...can lead to major events". I don't see that all events lead to major events, no.
2. Does God know everything? Yes. Was every little thing that ever happens planned out in predetermination? I don't want to answer "Yes" to that, because that would imply that we are just merely actors performing our parts in a play. I, as well as many I'm sure, have thought about this very thing. It could be, I'm not denying that possibility, especially in the light of these verses:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, However, I would still contend that there can be free will, and thus free choices that allow for growth, within certain limitations, that still provide for God's predetermination, or will. However, if everything is predetermined, planned, written; than can we really "grow" unto a perfect man? Does the mere act of performing in the play create in us the New Man? For that matter, would a limited amount of free will allow for us to grow into the perfect, new man? Would it hinder that growth?
I could see how performing in the play could create in us the new man. If I were to liken it to going to college to learn a trade, I would actually have to attend the classes and perform the work so that the knowledge would become engrained in me, to create that which I was schooled for.
The Perfect Man
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: These verses would seem to indicate free choices; "..tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...". But I can see that being tossed about as part of the play, having to go through that as the student becoming perfect.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 27, 2014, 07:08:29 AM
1. My answer was "Yes" because of the question "...can lead to major events". I don't see that all events lead to major events, no.
Right but my point is that God must still influence mundane events. I didn't say ALL mundane events, even though I believe all events are predetermined.
Quote2. Does God know everything? Yes. Was every little thing that ever happens planned out in predetermination?
I want to be clear about this though. I don't mean to say that God has PLANNED out every thing. James 1 says that God does not tempt man to sin. But he did lead Jesus to the mountain to be tempted of the Devil, and his success was also predetermined.
Pre-planning is a different issue from predetermination. Predetermination simply means that everything you do will happen as God knows it, and therefore no choice you make is free from such foreknowledge of God. It must happen as he already knows it will.
QuoteHowever, I would still contend that there can be free will, and thus free choices that allow for growth, within certain limitations, that still provide for God's predetermination, or will.
Can any choice be free from God's foreknowledge? If not, then no choice is free from predetermination.
QuoteHowever, if everything is predetermined, planned, written; than can we really "grow" unto a perfect man? Does the mere act of performing in the play create in us the New Man? For that matter, would a limited amount of free will allow for us to grow into the perfect, new man? Would it hinder that growth? I could see how performing in the play could create in us the new man
That's a good question. It's not so much that we are actors in a play. We are clay pots. God takes the clay and forms the pot. That's the comparison I see. Think of a tree. Does a tree have free choices to grow or not to grow? You just water it and it grows, doesn't it? Where does it come from that growth requires free will, when plenty of things grow without it?
Here is an example from a human point of view, rather than a tree: If God decided to suddenly implant all scientific knowledge in your head in a single instant, did that growth in knowledge require your cooperation or free choice, if God made that decision?
QuoteThese verses would seem to indicate free choices; "..tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...". But I can see that being tossed about as part of the play, having to go through that as the student becoming perfect.
Why would it indicate that?
Take a look at a story and this will explain what I see regarding choices and God's will:
God announces his judgment upon Solomon
1 Kings 11
11 So the Lord said to Solomon, "Because [f]you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. 12 Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son.
Rehoboam was Solomon's son, the son who God said he would tear the kingdom out of his hand. But look at how God does this:
1 Kings 12
6 King Rehoboam consulted with the elders who had served his father Solomon while he was still alive, saying, "How do you counsel me to answer this people?" 7 Then they spoke to him, saying, "If you will be a servant to this people today, and will serve them and grant them their petition, and speak good words to them, then they will be your servants forever." 8 But he forsook the counsel of the elders which they had given him, and consulted with the young men who grew up with him and served him. 9 So he said to them, "What counsel do you give that we may answer this people who have spoken to me, saying, 'Lighten the yoke which your father put on us'?" 10 The young men who grew up with him spoke to him, saying, "Thus you shall say to this people who spoke to you, saying, 'Your father made our yoke heavy, now you make it lighter for us!' But you shall speak to them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's loins! 11 Whereas my father loaded you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions.'"
12 Then Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day as the king had directed, saying, "Return to me on the third day." 13 The king answered the people harshly, for he forsook the advice of the elders which they had given him, 14 and he spoke to them according to the advice of the young men, saying, "My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions." 15 So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.
So Rehoboam was given a CHOICE: listen to the younger advisors, or the older advisors. He chose the former, to deal with Israel harshly. The result is that Israel revolts, and Rehoboam loses his control. At this point God comes back into the picture with this word to Israel:
1 Kings 12
24 'Thus says the Lord, "You must not go up and fight against your relatives the sons of Israel; return every man to his house, for this thing has come from Me."'" So they listened to the word of the Lord, and returned and went their way according to the word of the Lord.
If I took out the first and last scripture, and only focused on the middle part, it would APPEAR that Rehoboam had a choice to make. Does that mean his choice was free? The Elders (much like the Apostles with regard to sharing the Gospel) URGED Rehoboam to treat Israel fairly. But his actions were STILL of the Lord, who brought about his plan from within Rehoboam's choices.
Did Rehoboam know this was happening? Did he feel the hand of God in his actions?
Here is my point: Just because scriptures urge people to grow in the faith, at the end of the day God is still in charge of who grows into the likeness of Christ. Romans 8:29 proves this. It happens according to the foreknowledge and predestination of God. All the admonitions of the Gospel to grow, are just as part of God's ultimate plan as the admonition to Rehoboam to treat Israel fairly. It doesn't mean that God isn't still predetermining the growth of his elect. That's what makes them elect.
My thinker is starting to shut down for the evening! I will look at this again with a fresh mind tomorrow.
:friendstu:
God bless you bro. Just want to say, I respect the views of all who disagree. I'm posting a lot in this thread only because I am endlessly fascinated by it. It's a difficult subject for certain and I respect all those who see things differently. As EW if we saw things the same, it would be pretty boring, no? God bless all who have engaged in it. :HeartThrob:
Here's a little something to consider with this subject. Did Yeshua have free will? It depends on how one understand what should be the plain words he himself said:
Jesus therefore answered them, "Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(Joh 5:19)
I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
(Joh 5:30)
If we say that Yeshua could do nothing of himself (which is different than saying he chose to do nothing of himself, if that were even possible), what would that say about his love for his Father? Is it any less because he could not even love the Father apart from the Father working his will in his Son to love him?
Ronen, I think the keyword of both verses is "can".
The two main meanings are:
1] Have the ability to do something.
Being able to lift an object.
Have enough money to buy a car.
Be able to win a fight.
2] It's legally/morally allowed to do something.
Many things usually are physically possible but a can't be done be cause of certain consequences.
Most people can take 4 hour lunch breaks but at the same time can't because they will get fired.
Most people can hit a judge but at the same time can't because of the legal consequences.
The plumber that fixed your sink can do it for free but at the same time not because he will get fired.
Obviously when reading a text it's not always clear which meaning of "can" is used.
'I can't shoot the president'
That can't mean so many things. Too much security. It's against my moral values. I never learned to shoot. I'm blind. Etc.
The way I read the two verses you quoted strongly leans toward definition 2.
Jesus takes Father's actions as His moral guide as His law. He copies Father's personality.
Jesus had free will but look how He used that free will.
v19. He looks what Father does and does what He saw.
v30. He listen what the Father says and that the (basis of) the judgment He makes.
He could have done otherwise
v19 He could not look and do whatever He feel is best.
v30 He could seek His own will.
But it's never that easy.... :winkgrin:
Quote from: RonenIf we say that Yeshua could do nothing of himself (which is different than saying he chose to do nothing of himself, if that were even possible),
I think both apply to Jesus at the same time. It's may sound like a little paradox but it's isn't that hard to understand.
He did chose to do what Father did, but at the same time He can't chose at all because not doing so would conflict His own moral standards.
Most people 'function' at least in part that way. Sometimes people look at the law when doing things. Sometimes they follow their own moral standards which just happen to be the law also.
Many people like speeding but they don't because of fines. They look what the law says. (look what Father does)
--> Written law. Checking what others have to say about it.
Most people don't torture babies. They don't even bother to check what the law says on this matter. While they physically can torture a baby their personality is 100% effective stopping the person to do such things. So they made their own free choice because they didn't follow the law (looked at Father) but listened at their moral compass which just happened to align with the law.
But where does that moral law comes from? I think it's a combination of many things but for simplicity I'll only use parents in my example. Parents teach according to their own moral standards which covers many area's of life including things like social behavior (which often are law derived from laws), political views, laws, etc. Those things form a personality. That personality is the engine of free will. So my free will is largely made of my parents moral standards. So my free will is at least partly that of my parents.
--> My free will is the law written on my heart (by my parents, society and laws of my country)
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 27, 2014, 11:09:40 AM
Jesus therefore answered them, "Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(Joh 5:19)
I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
(Joh 5:30)
This is a legitimate way to read this. I am not really commenting on anyon elses opinion of how to read it. This is how I read it.
"I can of my own self do nothing
because my love for my Father constrains me to do and to judge as He does. I SEEK TO DO(active participation) my Father's will."
Good comment :icon_king:
If there is a difference between will and choice, they are nevertheless entirely dependent on one another.
If you have no will, it is not a choice. If you choose, your will is involved. If your will is not involved, you did not choose, another chose for you. This does not mean necessarily that your will is the only stimulus/source of the choice- another can be involved, but if you have no involvement by your own will then you have no involvement in the choice- you are just a piece on the board so to speak, a silent passeger observing from an uninvolved position, or a deluded puppet who cannot see the strings.(IMO)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 27, 2014, 07:05:02 PM
If there is a difference between will and choice, they are nevertheless entirely dependent on one another.
If you have no will, it is not a choice. If you choose, your will is involved. If your will is not involved, you did not choose, another chose for you.
I totally agree with this. Everyone has a will, a capacity to make choices. :thumbsup:
Jeremiah 17:9-10
Rotherham(i) 9 Deceitful is the heart above all things And, dangerously wayward,—Who can know it? 10 I—Yahweh, Searching the heart, Testing the affections; And giving to every man According to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Rom 9:11-16 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling, (12) it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior, (16) Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful."
Rom 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?
:dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on July 27, 2014, 07:53:20 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 27, 2014, 07:05:02 PM
If there is a difference between will and choice, they are nevertheless entirely dependent on one another.
If you have no will, it is not a choice. If you choose, your will is involved. If your will is not involved, you did not choose, another chose for you.
I totally agree with this. Everyone has a will, a capacity to make choices. :thumbsup:
And from an earlier post; "Pre-planning is a different issue from predetermination.
Predetermination simply means that everything you do will happen as God knows it, and therefore no choice you make is free from such foreknowledge of God. It must happen as he already knows it will." and
"Here is my point: Just because scriptures urge people to grow in the faith, at the end of the day God is still in charge of who grows into the likeness of Christ. Romans 8:29 proves this.
It happens according to the foreknowledge and predestination of God. All the admonitions of the Gospel to grow, are just as part of God's ultimate plan as the admonition to Rehoboam to treat Israel fairly.
It doesn't mean that God isn't still predetermining the growth of his elect. That's what makes them elect."
Just getting back to this Seth!
In looking at the word "predetermination" that we used, you explained that it was God's foreknowledge of all events, but the in the later statement; "...doesn't mean that God isn't still predetermining...".
I used the word pre-planning, from which you said differed from predetermination; and I can except that definition as you gave it. But then you used the word predetermining, which to me, and it appears that way within the context of that particular sentence, that it is an action of for-thought in pre-planning. So the confusion is this; is predetermination simply foreknowledge, or is it pre-planning?
In reference to those He foreknew He did predestinate, I think the word predetermine means the same thing as predestinate, which to me would mean pre-planned.
As we discussed earlier, does God allow free will or is everything already written and we are just following script? My heart tells me that there is God's overall will, which will be done, but within His will, we are allowed our own free will within the parameters he has given us; as I have stated before. To just be following script, that every single thing has already been planned, to me is suffocating and puts my mind in bondage, and at this time, I cannot except that.
Anyway, this whole thread, which just started out as a realization of the Peace we have in Christ, knowing that our salvation is in His hands, and to take comfort and rest in that, as most threads do, took on a whole life of itself!
God may not be the author of confusion, but the reader sure can be confused!
Hi SW, I meant that God is preplanning the growth of the elect. I didn't mean that God has preplanned everything. As I had said earlier, God does not tempt man to sin. I was making the difference clear about that. At the very LEAST, all is predetermined.
But specifically in regard to the growth of the elect, yes that is according to Gods preplanning.
I firmly believe that God's free will is far greater than our free will. If he desires for all to be saved, he will do so. If not, he won't do so. I would suggest reading "Hope Beyond Hell" on the tentmaker website. It makes a great case in regards to how our "free will" isn't as strong as we think it is and how God's free will is greater than our free will. It is backed up by scriptures as well.
Quote from: Seth on July 29, 2014, 07:11:42 AM
Hi SW, I meant that God is preplanning the growth of the elect. I didn't mean that God has preplanned everything. As I had said earlier, God does not tempt man to sin. I was making the difference clear about that. At the very LEAST, all is predetermined.
But specifically in regard to the growth of the elect, yes that is according to Gods preplanning.
No God does not tempt man to sin, absolutely not, but God does cause the situation where man has to make a choice, to do good or to not.
Jas 1:14 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by
his own lust, and enticed.
Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and
were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: - :Peace2: :2c:
I agree. :thumbsup:
See, I want to make a distinction here. I don't believe God is literally forcing people to sin. I think man already wants to sin, and God uses even the evil choices in his ultimate plans.
God did not tempt Jesus to sin. But the Bible says that the Spirit led him to a place to be tempted of the devil. Again, all toward his plan, and Christ's success was predetermined.
Quote from: Seth on July 29, 2014, 07:11:42 AM
Hi SW, I meant that God is preplanning the growth of the elect. I didn't mean that God has preplanned everything. As I had said earlier, God does not tempt man to sin. I was making the difference clear about that. At the very LEAST, all is predetermined.
But specifically in regard to the growth of the elect, yes that is according to Gods preplanning.
:gimmefive: I am understanding your point now, thanks.
I believe we do not have free will to cause an event.
The event was caused by the hand of God .
I believe we have free will to name the event.
How we categorise the event in our hearts and mind is area of free will.
Isn't that after the aggression? Hindsight..... and hindsight is revealed after the fact. We all have hindsight and a good many times it is oops.... and from that learning, unless I have misunderstood you. :2c:
Quote from: dajomaco on July 29, 2014, 09:55:08 PM
I believe we do not have free will to cause an event.
The event was caused by the hand of God .
God can do things in many ways; including causing events in secret. So we don't always know if God is doing something or not.
Or causing no events at all. When satan was testing Job, God stepped back for a while. God stopped active protection for a while.
I think it's a matter of perspective who causes events. In the OT we repellingly see the people of Israel break God's commands. Often God doesn't punish/correct instantly but gave them some time to repent. When that time ran out God started to act again. That point is clearly God causing actions.
God never
directly caused Israel to break His commands. Is doing nothing 'causing an action' too? Did God cause Israel to make a golden calf?
My point is that God can really give people free will for a while. When He gets fed up He starts forcing things His way again. Israel had God as a leader but they wanted 'more'. They wanted to rule themselves like other nations. So they got judges, kings, priests etc. At the 'end of time' Jesus will be their King. Basically that's what's happening to the whole world.
We have plenty of time to mess up things. Obviously God knew that before creation even started. When our time runs out, God takes control again by making Jesus King.
QuoteI believe we do not have free will to cause an event.
The event was caused by the hand of God .
Is passively allowing mankind to do stupid things an act of God?
"My point is that God can really give people free will for a while."
Yes, but in my opinion, He just allows them to be the creatures they are.
When discussing the will of man or God's will we tend to often refer to free will
I submit that the word free in this context is not scriptural. In scripture the word free is usually connected with bond or free. It is Strong's G1658 and means liberated (the simple definition). It is never connected to the word will.
Free will is a philosophical term and is discussed in the schools of philosophy. Google free will for more. Note this web site, one of a number:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
from this site the following under "free will":
"Free Will" is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. Which sort is the free will sort is what all the fuss is about. (And what a fuss it has been: philosophers have debated this question for over two millennia, and just about every major philosopher has had something to say about it.) Most philosophers suppose that the concept of free will is very closely connected to the concept of moral responsibility. Acting with free will, on such views, is just to satisfy the metaphysical requirement on being responsible for one's action.
Also "free will" is often associated with the phrase "free moral agency" although these are really separate topics. "Free moral agency" is found mostly in theological discussions.
Tentmaker web site under Scholars Corner has two good articles on "free moral agency" by Preston Eby and AP Adams.
QuoteIs passively allowing mankind to do stupid things an act of God?
Absolutely.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2014, 05:54:02 AM
"My point is that God can really give people free will for a while."
Yes, but in my opinion, He just allows them to be the creatures they are.
He steps back and allows them to do exactly what he knows they would do since before they were born. What looks like stepping back, to me is the push and pull of his Sovereignty, working all things according to the council of his own will.
I think He ssteps back for the righteous to do righteously as well, and that is a part of the council of His will, that we learn to walk as sons, as did His Son, who learned righteousness through the things that He suffered
Quote from: eaglesway on July 30, 2014, 07:00:05 AM
I think He ssteps back for the righteous to do righteously as well, and that is a part of the council of His will, that we learn to walk as sons, as did His Son, who learned righteousness through the things that He suffered
I agree. I think that righteousness can be learned through experiencing evil that way, and keeping patience. I just don't think His stepping back is necessary for us to learn anything. If I understand the idea, it's that we cannot truly learn anything unless we do so on our own, but just don't see that such a think is necessarily required. God can simply give us our growth from his own grace. God can simply mold us like clay to be what he wants. I don't see any prerequisite that we must do so on our own.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2014, 05:54:02 AM
"My point is that God can really give people free will for a while."
Yes, but in my opinion, He just allows them to be the creatures they are.
Isn't that the same thing?
Let's not forget the devil who deceives the whole world...
Quote from: Seth on July 30, 2014, 07:06:19 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 30, 2014, 07:00:05 AM
I think He ssteps back for the righteous to do righteously as well, and that is a part of the council of His will, that we learn to walk as sons, as did His Son, who learned righteousness through the things that He suffered
I agree. I think that righteousness can be learned through experiencing evil that way, and keeping patience. I just don't think His stepping back is necessary for us to learn anything. If I understand the idea, it's that we cannot truly learn anything unless we do so on our own, but just don't see that such a think is necessarily required. God can simply give us our growth from his own grace. God can simply mold us like clay to be what he wants. I don't see any prerequisite that we must do so on our own.
I dont think we are ever completely on our own. All of these things speak of matters of degree, imo. When I speak of God "stepping back", I am talking about Him allowing us to experience things tht conform us too the image of Christ, to the end that we would be completely free- and completely righteous in His love. IMO this is the destination of every being in the universe- set free from futility and totally fulfilled in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God"
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith
that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
I don't think the process is about control. I think it is about freedom thru grace and love. Once we are perfected(rooted and grounded) in love, "filled up to all the fulness of God", there is no law, no need to be directed. We are comstrained by the love of God, which is total freedom.
"For freedom Christ has set you free"
FOR FREEDOM.
Yet, one could ask, is a drop of water in a river free? (His voice is like the rushing of many waters, as 10,000s of 10,000s praising God).
The answer is a paradox. A drop of water in a river is free to flow with the river. In that power and glory, the rushing of many waters, the drop of water is free, and at the same time it is "caught up" in the flow of the river (and wouldnt hav it any other way).
Is a drop of water free? I would say...no. A drop of water goes with the current and can do nothing else. But I do understand your point :icon_jokercolor: and I enjoyed that post
A drop of water is free within the flow. We are not free until we "go with the flow" LOL. I am speaking of God's love of course.
A skydiver probably. He goes in one direction but can manipulate his right and left. I've tried to hold a conversation with a drop of water. They're not as smart as you might think. I'm in a goofy mood. Time for bed. :laughing7:
I wonder, is it so strange an idea that we could "freely choose" to do the right thing? To love. To give. To follow Christ- I am not speaking of intitial salvation.
I am talking about CONVERSION.
Jesus said to Peter(who was already saved), "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren."
When we talk about being "conformed to the image of Christ", what are we being conformed to but the love He freely gave to the world and to His Father.
When we are converted(from operating primarily out of the flesh and the mind to operating primarily out of the spirit and the heart- we are free.
Here is a scripture to support my point. "The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you dont know where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit."
This is total freedom. it is why we are "born from above". It is the destination of the entire creation.
If I agree to do what God would have me do , I am free.
If I must be forced to do it or controled in the doing of it I am not.
Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing aand spoke only what He heard from the Father because He loved the Father and the Father loved Him. They were one.
"I pray that you may be one even as I and the Father are one(that your joy may be FULL). I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you."
Joy unspeakable and full of glory is the result of oneness, union, harmony, communion and community. These things grow where the grace of God abounds. "And great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and no one among them had any need."
For freedom Christ has set you free.
If we can freely choose to be converted then God has no real control over who his elect will be. He's in the dark about because he has to wait to see who freely chooses to finish the race.
In my mind/heart the Lord God is the cause for any and everything that has, is, or will happen in all things. He is the responsible party. And as far as I know He affirms the same.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last. :2c: :dsunny:
We should never use the word "free" with the word "will."
Even God is not free to go against His will. He cannot hate in the truest sense of the word since "God is love."
The problem with the idea that a will is free is that it causes people to believe they are little deities running around mucking up God's plans. If you ever saw Time Bandits you will see these little dwarves running around God's universe using time holes to muck up His universe. God is constantly chasing them around trying to catch them and stop them. At the end of the movie the young boy asks God (in a British accent of course) "God, why is there so much evil in the world?" And God replies (with a British accent of course): "Let's just say it has to do with free will."
All through the movie I noticed the same people playing different parts as it went through hundreds of years of time.
After I saw the movie I thought, this movie must have been created by someone who believed in free will and reincarnation. Sure enough George Harrison of the Beatles was one of the producers of the film.
But is the evil in the world due to free will?
If God is not in charge of His universe then He is not God in the truest sense of the word. Anyone who is dependent upon the will of another is not greater than that other.
When Adam sinned, did he have a will to do otherwise? No. He was made of flesh. The flesh is at enmity to God (Romans 8). Therefore Adam was not free to not be at enmity to God.
Adam was created soulish. The soulish man is not receiving that which is of God (1 Cor.2:14).
Was Pharaoh free to just let Israel walk out of Egypt? No. God hardened his heart so he would not free them so He could bring Egypt down and so God would be glorified.
No we aren't puppets. We are not robots. We are vessels formed by God and carried by God to be used as He sees fit.
Quote from: Tony N on July 30, 2014, 06:59:44 PM
We should never use the word "free" with the word "will."
Even God is not free to go against His will. He cannot hate in the truest sense of the word since "God is love."
The problem with the idea that a will is free is that it causes people to believe they are little deities running around mucking up God's plans. If you ever saw Time Bandits you will see these little dwarves running around God's universe using time holes to muck up His universe. God is constantly chasing them around trying to catch them and stop them. At the end of the movie the young boy asks God (in a British accent of course) "God, why is there so much evil in the world?" And God replies (with a British accent of course): "Let's just say it has to do with free will."
All through the movie I noticed the same people playing different parts as it went through hundreds of years of time.
After I saw the movie I thought, this movie must have been created by someone who believed in free will and reincarnation. Sure enough George Harrison of the Beatles was one of the producers of the film.
But is the evil in the world due to free will?
If God is not in charge of His universe then He is not God in the truest sense of the word. Anyone who is dependent upon the will of another is not greater than that other.
When Adam sinned, did he have a will to do otherwise? No. He was made of flesh. The flesh is at enmity to God (Romans 8). Therefore Adam was not free to not be at enmity to God.
Adam was created soulish. The soulish man is not receiving that which is of God (1 Cor.2:14).
Was Pharaoh free to just let Israel walk out of Egypt? No. God hardened his heart so he would not free them so He could bring Egypt down and so God would be glorified.
No we aren't puppets. We are not robots. We are vessels formed by God and carried by God to be used as He sees fit.
:Peace2:
:thumbsup:
Ecc 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.
Quote from: Seth on July 30, 2014, 07:10:35 PM
:thumbsup:
Ecc 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled) therewith.
Concordant 13 I applied `my heart to inquiring− and > exploring− by
wisdom on concerning all that is done under the heavens: It is an
experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to
humble them by it.
:Peace2:
Man's heart is full of freewill.
Out of the abundance of the heart, fruit is born.
We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit of Life or the spirit of death.
How is this done? Is there a verse of scripture?
"We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit of Life or the spirit of death."
Jer 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
Jer 17:10 I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Mar_7:21 for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.
I hope I am in the right thread on this. I read someone asking about how can there be growth without free will or something along those lines. The answer Paul gives, I believe is:
I plant, Apollos irrigates, but God makes it grow up."
(1Co 3:6)
Growth is not something we make happen, it happens to us even when we are not conscious of it, because it is of God.
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 31, 2014, 01:59:48 AM
I hope I am in the right thread on this. I read someone asking about how can there be growth without free will or something along those lines. The answer Paul gives, I believe is:
I plant, Apollos irrigates, but God makes it grow up."
(1Co 3:6)
Growth is not something we make happen, it happens to us even when we are not conscious of it, because it is of God.
:2thumbs:
Jesus did not say to Peter, "When you choose to be converted, strengthen the brethren".
He said, "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren".
Peter did not convert himself, nor did I indicate that he did. :o)
A process of trials and tribulations- failures leading to brokeness(a broken and a contrite heart) designed by God caused Peters growth into a "converted" man.
By "coonverted", Jesus was not talking about salvation. He was talking about brokeness. Peter was saved already. He had confessed Jesus as Lord and Jesus had said to him, "Man did not reveal this to you" and "You are all clean because of the words I have spoken to you".
My point was not that we choose to be converted. My point was that once we are converted(broken, yielded, submissive) we are free.
When you obey because you want to you are free. So many people are so afraid that perhaps God may give believers a little freedom. Why? Do we not trust Him? Do we not know Him, and His ways? Hav we not been discipled of Him? Perhaps not. Fear has torment.
For freedom Christ has set you free. The one whom the son sets free shall be FREE INDEED. - Not in theory, or in itsy bitsy fearful increments.
Our mother is the heavenly Jerusalem who is FREE.
We are growing into freedom because our hearts are coming into oneness/union/harmony with Him- not so we can glory or take credit.
Freely you have received freely give.
Can one not be free and humble and submissive to the will of the Father at the same time? Of course one can. Grace as provided the faith to do so and to God be all the glory, and Christ, who is the fountain through which this freedom flows.
God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself by love- and there is a sentence where "free" and "will" can be used together for sure.
I am amazed that so many can only see absolute extremes when it vcomes to this topic. It is a mystery and a matter of degrees. A paradox hidden in the language of scriptures. A single coin whose two sides seem opposed to some but are actually united as one by the only union there is. Love. That's the place where all mysteries are resolved.
We are called, chosen and elected- to be conformed to the image of Christ- WITHIN. Jesus was free, like the wind that blows where it wills....WHAT! SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.(Jn 3:8)
How else can we bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God. :cloud9:
Just to be clear, I am in no, in NO WAY, fearful of God giving me "free will." I agree with this statement: "When you obey because you want to you are free." Yet what I believe is that God CAUSES us to want to obey, by reducing the power of the lusts of the flesh to obey him. God cuts the cord of the flesh to our mind, and we become obedient. Then he continues to water us so that his conversion of our souls is all his work and not our own.
God keeps his converted. The devil CANNOT deceive the very elect, because God chose them from before they were born.
It's not that I am afraid of having too much freedom. One aspect we are not discussing is the Dragon.
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
How much does that VERY subtle deception affect the will of man who is not kept by God? That is why even after initial salvation we depend on God to grow us. If we are vessels prepared for destruction, we would most likely become "brute beasts" as Peter put it. You can tell by the fruit.
Quote from: Seth on July 31, 2014, 04:29:03 AM
Just to be clear, I am in no, in NO WAY, fearful of God giving me "free will." I agree with this statement: "When you obey because you want to you are free." Yet what I believe is that God CAUSES us to want to obey, by reducing the power of the lusts of the flesh to obey him. God cuts the cord of the flesh to our mind, and we become obedient. Then he continues to water us so that his conversion of our souls is all his work and not our own.
:iagree:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2014, 04:01:42 AM
Jesus did not say to Peter, "When you choose to be converted, strengthen the brethren".
He said, "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren".
Peter did not convert himself, nor did I indicate that he did. :o)
A process of trials and tribulations- failures leading to brokeness(a broken and a contrite heart) designed by God caused Peters growth into a "converted" man.
By "coonverted", Jesus was not talking about salvation. He was talking about brokeness. Peter was saved already. He had confessed Jesus as Lord and Jesus had said to him, "Man did not reveal this to you" and "You are all clean because of the words I have spoken to you".
My point was not that we choose to be converted. My point was that once we are converted(broken, yielded, submissive) we are free.
When you obey because you want to you are free. So many people are so afraid that perhaps God may give believers a little freedom. Why? Do we not trust Him? Do we not know Him, and His ways? Hav we not been discipled of Him? Perhaps not. Fear has torment.
For freedom Christ has set you free. The one whom the son sets free shall be FREE INDEED. - Not in theory, or in itsy bitsy fearful increments.
Our mother is the heavenly Jerusalem who is FREE.
We are growing into freedom because our hearts are coming into oneness/union/harmony with Him- not so we can glory or take credit.
Freely you have received freely give.
Can one not be free and humble and submissive to the will of the Father at the same time? Of course one can. Grace as provided the faith to do so and to God be all the glory, and Christ, who is the fountain through which this freedom flows.
God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself by love- and there is a sentence where "free" and "will" can be used together for sure.
I am amazed that so many can only see absolute extremes when it vcomes to this topic. It is a mystery and a matter of degrees. A paradox hidden in the language of scriptures. A single coin whose two sides seem opposed to some but are actually united as one by the only union there is. Love. That's the place where all mysteries are resolved.
We are called, chosen and elected- to be conformed to the image of Christ- WITHIN. Jesus was free, like the wind that blows where it wills....WHAT! SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.(Jn 3:8)
How else can we bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God. :cloud9:
"Peter was saved already." EW
I would question that. Should Peter have been saved-made whole-healed, then he imo would have ascended to heaven and we know that is not so.
"My point was not that we choose to be converted. My point was that once we are converted(broken, yielded, submissive) we are free." EW
Free do what? What we desire? What we want? Free how? We are still in the flesh and you know what the flesh desires.
"When you obey because you want to you are free. So many people are so afraid that perhaps God may give believers a little freedom. Why? Do we not trust Him? Do we not know Him, and His ways? Hav we not been discipled of Him? Perhaps not. Fear has torment.
For freedom Christ has set you free. The one whom the son sets free shall be FREE INDEED. - Not in theory, or in itsy bitsy fearful increments." EW
That freedom you speak of, now, when the Spirit is operating in you, is not your freedom it is the leading of the Spirit that has cleaned your thinking and now you free to yield to that energy.
"God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself by love- and there is a sentence where "free" and "will" can be used together for sure." EW
Listen to yourself, "GOD WILL FREE YOUR WILL FROM THE FLESH....." when that happens I believe you are now yielding to His Will and the will of the flesh you were born with is suffocated. I know you didn't mean "God will free your will from the flesh and unite it to Himself...." Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
This in my opinion, your opinion is a stumbling block.... "I am amazed that so many can only see absolute extremes when it vcomes to this topic. It is a mystery and a matter of degrees. A paradox hidden in the language of scriptures. A single coin whose two sides seem opposed to some but are actually united as one by the only union there is. Love. That's the place where all mysteries are resolved."
My friend, should it be LOVE, then one's will, belongs the One who is love, and one cannot perform love outside of his Will.
"How else can we bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God. "
There you go, "HOW ELSE CAN "WE"..." here is a news flash WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING, unless it is HIS WILL. He was, is, and will take full responsibility for All that His creation performs. :HeartThrob: :2c:
If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2014, 09:04:30 AM
If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:
Really? If Peter was saved he would have been complete just as Jesus was complete. EW we are all human beings until the finale and the saving is complete, finished. Peter was imo, a fisherman, who was chosen to be a disciple and when converted was an Apostle. He was still a man/human in the working in the plan of salvation. He hasn't made being saved.....yet
Peter does mention that baptism is our salvation by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, likening that to the Ark. Paul also says that we were reconciled by his death and how much more so having been reconciled shall we be saved by his life. EW, you are right, Peter was cleansed by the words Jesus spoke, but I see that as being cleansed from falsehoods. I think the salvation process really started at Pentecost for him.
Peter's method of sharing the gospel was to say repent and receive the Holy Spirit and be saved from this wicked generation. I think Peter needed that as well.
Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2014, 09:04:30 AM
If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:
I don't get that either.
Why would Peter ascend into heaven? He remains on the earth and will sit on one of the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel with the other 11 apostles in Israel during the Millennial reign of Christ.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2014, 01:55:29 AM
How is this done? Is there a verse of scripture?
"We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit of Life or the spirit of death."
Jer 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
Jer 17:10 I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Mar_7:21 for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.
I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,
Then the LORD instructed Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and say to David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am offering you three choices. Choose one of them for yourself, and I will do it to you.'"
11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes with the sword of your enemy overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD—a plague on the land, the angel of the LORD bringing destruction to the whole territory of Israel.' Now decide what answer I should take back to the One who sent me."
Who is the man who fears the Lord? He will show him the way he should choose.
Because they hated knowledge, didn't choose to fear the Lord,
Quote from: Tony N on July 31, 2014, 08:47:03 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2014, 09:04:30 AM
If he had been saved he would have ascended into heaven? Don't get that :Chinscratch:
I don't get that either.
Why would Peter ascend into heaven? He remains on the earth and will sit on one of the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel with the other 11 apostles in Israel during the Millennial reign of Christ.
My point which I now see I posted wrong. Peter was still alive and in the process of being saved.
If I understand you correctly, you meant that ascending to heaven is the endpoint of this life long process of being saved, the final shedding of the flesh. If so, I see it the same way.
:Peace2:
Quote from: dajomaco on July 31, 2014, 08:58:51 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2014, 01:55:29 AM
How is this done? Is there a verse of scripture?
"We are free to will the spirit in our hearts to grow.
We freely choose the spirit of Life or the spirit of death."
Jer 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?
Jer 17:10 I Jehovah do search the heart, try the reins, Even to give to each according to his way, According to the fruit of his doings.
Mar_7:21 for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.
I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,
Then the LORD instructed Gad, David's seer, 10 "Go and say to David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am offering you three choices. Choose one of them for yourself, and I will do it to you.'"
11 So Gad went to David and said to him, "This is what the LORD says: 'Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, or three months of devastation by your foes with the sword of your enemy overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the LORD—a plague on the land, the angel of the LORD bringing destruction to the whole territory of Israel.' Now decide what answer I should take back to the One who sent me."
Who is the man who fears the Lord? He will show him the way he should choose.
Because they hated knowledge, didn't choose to fear the Lord,
As for "choosing life," they thought they were choosing life but in fact the law is death chiseled in stone. Of course they didn't know that at that juncture.
But one must ask: what caused them to choose whatever it was they chose? Was their choice totally free from cause? But even after they chose, Joshua told them they cannot serve the Lord.
I think God put it in David's heart to choose the right thing out of the three choices.
I think God put it in David's heart to choose the right thing out of the three choices.
Why did God want David to believe he had a choice ?
I believe to love the Lord with all of our heart.
We must somehow believe we chose to love him.
Even though we know we have no free will in this area.
We can have faith that somehow we have freely chosen to Love Jesus.
We can ignore the reality that it was not our choice.
QuoteI believe to love the Lord with all of our heart. We must somehow believe we chose to love him.
Some folks think that, and I respect your difference of opinion. But my awe at how God is able to execute his plan without fail and with perfect foreknowledge, reminds me of how great and vast he is compared to us little humans. And then I add to that how he loves us regardless of our smallness. That makes me love God all the more.
I don't have to think that I freely chose God in order to love him. That's just me personally.
If you believe in hell you can Love Jesus because he kept you out of hell.
Or if you don't Love him he will sent you to hell.
People say they Love Jesus. In reality they can't.
If I say Jesus loves me. This is a statement of fact.
I'm called to love God .
I have to believe that it is possible.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 01, 2014, 12:58:46 AM
If you believe in hell you can Love Jesus because he kept you out of hell.
Or if you don't Love him he will sent you to hell.
People say they Love Jesus. In reality they can't.
If I say Jesus loves me. This is a statement of fact.
I'm called to love God .
I have to believe that it is possible.
Of course it's possible. God caused you to love him by revealing himself to you. As it says in the Bible "We love him because he first loved us."
Quote from: Tony N on July 31, 2014, 08:45:06 PM
Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
I hav always said I believe in calling and election. What I differ with is the I believe God gives a measure of freedom for the purpose of discipleship and a stewardship that grows into total freedom through total unity with God. This based in my belief(based on how I read the scriptures) that God created us for fellowship, and desires interaction, love, exchange of being with others who have chosen to be a part of what He is, Who He is, and what He is doing.
No man can give birth to himself- that is a given(in my paradigm). However, once God has caused us to be "begotten by the word of truth unto a fervent love of the brethren", and whlie He is always intimately involved, He gives us choices and we make them- He may know the choice we will make, but unless we have some freedom to choose- to much of the language of scripture would be just frivolous posturing. As I said once before- God creates a bubble within a bubble within a bubble. There are different dynamics at work in each level, as we progress from one to the other- but the scriptures acknowledge them all, and the paradigm at work in each one (life in time, wthin life in Christ, within God's overall creatve scope in eternity). To deny any of them is just theoretical theological head trips(imo). The simple language of scripture is clear enough to be accepted at face value, and as such, all these views are incorporated in the whole cloth of the truth.
The relationship of God and Man is a Love relationship.
As a man I cannot fathom how to create a being that would truly Love me.
If I gave that being free will,
I would have to wait to see if the being called me abba.
You are being renewed in knowledge according to the image of your[e] Creator. 11 In Christ[f] there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian,[g] slave and free; but Christ is all and in all.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 01, 2014, 09:51:25 PM
The relationship of God and Man is a Love relationship.
As a man I cannot fathom how to create a being that would truly Love me.
If I gave that being free will,
I would have to wait to see if the being called me abba.
However, if that being didn't have anything within itself to love you back and say "abba" you would need to intervene by giving your own love and implanting it into the little being, thereby enlightening it to what true love is. That is what I believe is happening in scripture with regard to God's sovereignty.
We all have different views on why there are admonitions in the Bible. To me, the fact that there are admonitions in the Bible does not make for a clear teaching or suggestion of free will. "Clear" is in the eye of the beholder, a matter of interpretation.
What looks to be a clear suggestion of free will to someone, looks like a clear demonstration of something else to me. The admonitions, to me, do not suggest free will, but they set a standard by which we know God chooses his elect. In other words, the admonitions provide a guideline so that when God's elect are revealed to the world, we will know what makes them elect. We will know the work that God did from within them and how the elect obeyed the admonitions he gave because he caused them to obey.
And because they are elect, they cannot be deceived by Satan.
Why did Moses bother telling Pharaoh to let his people go, when God himself had no intention of allowing Pharaoh to do that? That wasn't posturing, was it? Everything that transpired went according to plan, step by step. It was to demonstrate God's wrath and glory upon vessels prepared for destruction.
Moses' admonition to Pharaoh set a standard that Pharaoh did not meet, so that when Pharaoh was destroyed, like the Potter molds the clay, the rest of creation understood the standard by which God chose to elect Pharaoh to destruction. The admonition was there as part of God's plan to demonstrate God's sovereignty over Pharaoh.
I believe in the fullness of time, we will see all the admonitions to the church to be in the same vein as God's admonition to Pharaoh. I believe we will find that some who heard them were vessels fitted for destruction, and others who obeyed them were vessels fitted for mercy.
The only thing that is clear is that it is unclear where the seam in the paradox is hidden and no one has it all figured out. it is not simple by any means. It is a mystery, and God intends for it to remain so.(Lest anyone boast)
For who has known the Lord and who has been His counselor and who has given to Him that He should repay....
Wow! Great discussion here folks. As of now, I've only read about a quarter of the way into these comments, but I intend to read it all. My bible study group just recently started studying this topic of the will of man scriptures vs the will of GOD scriptures. And attempting to understand both WITHOUT causing them to contradict each other. The way mainstream "free will" doctrine does. When I use to be mainstream, I remember looking at will of man verses without any consideration for the will of GOD verses! But now I have learned to understand the will of man verses in the light of the will of GOD verses and its awesome. Its the key to avoiding causing the scriptures to contradict on this topic. For example. The verse Rom 10:13 that says, "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. I use to look at that and think that a person has to exercise their will the right way and call on the Lord in order to be saved. And people who don't, failed to exercise their will rightly, and if they continue like that they will perish in ET. But now, thank GOD, I look at Rom 3:13 with the light of other will of GOD verses! And I feel like I'm understanding it in the context of the rest of the bible and not by itself. Will of GOD verses like the one where Jesus taught that no one can know his truth unless its revealed by the Father. (speaking to Peter) Or, "no one can come to me unless the Father draws them". Or Paul's teaching on the potter and the clay, and GOD making "vessels unto honor or dishonor". Not to mention GOD'S omniscience, omnipotents , and Omni-presence. So now when I look at Rom 3:13, I understand that in order for a person to "call on the Lord" for salvation, its all because of GOD!
Everything is all because of God. However, That statement does not fully explain everything in the scriptures . The idea that all of God's interactions are Him acting by Himself with Himself through us is also an extreme that also does damage to the scriptures. When we speak to one another as believers about the exhortations of the scriptures and theconcepts of accountability the scriptures define- we ought to be able to do so in the simple language of scriptures. Those who redefine the narratives and exhortations of the scriptures with theological interpretation are missing something as well, in my opinion.
Of course we can do nothing without the grace of God, and thus, we give God all the glory- Yet, there is a discourse going on between man and God in the kosmos- and it is not all God interacting with Himself through little chess pieces that have no say in the matter. Otherwise, what is the point? Where is the lesson learned, the reward earned, the fellowship with God as Sons.
I submit rather, that the sovereign God has predestined the elect to be transformed into the image of Christ, through trials and tribulations and interactions with God-graduating through discipleship, stewardship and revelation into absolute freedom- the glorious liberty of the children of God, perfected love.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on August 03, 2014, 10:49:04 AM
Wow! Great discussion here folks. As of now, I've only read about a quarter of the way into these comments, but I intend to read it all. My bible study group just recently started studying this topic of the will of man scriptures vs the will of GOD scriptures. And attempting to understand both WITHOUT causing them to contradict each other. The way mainstream "free will" doctrine does. When I use to be mainstream, I remember looking at will of man verses without any consideration for the will of GOD verses! But now I have learned to understand the will of man verses in the light of the will of GOD verses and its awesome. Its the key to avoiding causing the scriptures to contradict on this topic. For example. The verse Rom 10:13 that says, "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. I use to look at that and think that a person has to exercise their will the right way and call on the Lord in order to be saved. And people who don't, failed to exercise their will rightly, and if they continue like that they will perish in ET. But now, thank GOD, I look at Rom 3:13 with the light of other will of GOD verses! And I feel like I'm understanding it in the context of the rest of the bible and not by itself. Will of GOD verses like the one where Jesus taught that no one can know his truth unless its revealed by the Father. (speaking to Peter) Or, "no one can come to me unless the Father draws them". Or Paul's teaching on the potter and the clay, and GOD making "vessels unto honor or dishonor". Not to mention GOD'S omniscience, omnipotents , and Omni-presence. So now when I look at Rom 3:13, I understand that in order for a person to "call on the Lord" for salvation, its all because of GOD!
Excellent! :dsunny:
I thank God with a grateful heart that He gives so freely of gifts unthought of
that He gives the grace and power also
that others may learn how to take
that they may learn how to give
If the Kingdom of Love within
was expressed in its simplicity
seeds would become great trees
into which flying creatures from the heavens would rest
I thank God with a grateful heart that He makes it so
Here's a good one:
"I know, O Yahweh, that it is not
for a human to choose his way;
It is not for a man to walk
and to establish his step"
(Jeremiah 10:23
Quote from: eaglesway on August 03, 2014, 09:05:26 AM
The only thing that is clear is that it is unclear where the seam in the paradox is hidden and no one has it all figured out. it is not simple by any means. It is a mystery, and God intends for it to remain so.(Lest anyone boast)
For who has known the Lord and who has been His counselor and who has given to Him that He should repay....
I agree that it is a Mystery. :iagree:
In the center of this mystery,
Where mans will and God's will meet is,
where the fragrance of Love is produced .
This fragrance pleases God.
Amen
Quote from: dajomaco on July 29, 2014, 09:55:08 PM
I believe we do not have free will to cause an event.
The event was caused by the hand of God .
I agree. God is not a liar. God has promised to save everyone, so it must come true. Therefore, God must plan out events in advance that will result in people believing in Christ to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9.
Indeterminism is quantum theory in physics which posits that no event is certain. However, as Christian Universalists, we know that the salvation of all people is guaranteed! The Lord Almighty determined this in His plan since the beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism
Indeterminism also states that the outcome of anything is probabilistic. However, as believers in Universal Reconciliation, we know that the salvation of all 100% of people will be saved. This is not a random chance, but rather 100% fact!
Scientists have divided Indeterminism into "chaos" and "quantum" categories.
Chaos indeterminism = Risk. -> There is no risk, God will save everybody.
Quantum indeterminism = Uncertainty. -> There is no uncertainty, God will save everybody.