God's Will

[eaglesway]

That still does not prove, imo, that God never steps back and allows us to operate in freedom as children in order to teach us who He is, and allow us to grow. That has been my whole point in all of these exchanges. At no time have I challenged the idea that God is Sovereign. I just reject the idea that His sovereignty precludes a measure of freedom for the purpose of learning discipleship and stewardship. Just because God hardened Israel, or Pharoah- does not automatically mean that He never lets us go, as in the parable of the prodigal, for instance. What is quite clear, is that we do not see the matter in the same way, and that is alrite- Jesus is Lord and God is our Father and the Savior of all. I think we agree on that LOL.

[Seth]

That still does not prove, imo, that God never steps back and allows us to operate in freedom as children in order to teach us who He is, and allow us to grow. That has been my whole point in all of these exchanges. At no time have I challenged the idea that God is Sovereign. I just reject the idea that His sovereignty precludes a measure of freedom for the purpose of learning discipleship and stewardship. Just because God hardened Israel, or Pharoah- does not automatically mean that He never lets us go, as in the parable of the prodigal, for instance. What is quite clear, is that we do not see the matter in the same way, and that is alrite- Jesus is Lord and God is our Father and the Savior of all. I think we agree on that LOL.

Just to be clear, I know you are not challenging the idea that God is sovereign. We both agree on that, just in different ways.  :thumbsup:

Does God step back and allow a certain amount of freedom? That's the question. I don't know what "stepping back" means though. Does that mean he doesn't know what you are going to do before you do it, even as he knows the very count of hairs on our heads?

[eaglesway]

Well, this is a bit out there but here goes LOL.... Can God make a bubble inside another bubble inside another bubble? Which bubble are you in?

My things is this. When our theology steps on someone who is speaking of being in the smallest bubble- a reality within realities created by God for our edification- we do a diservice to our brothers and sisters who are dealing with, or being dealt with, within that experience.

I can stand back all day saying "THERE" IS ONLY ONE BIG BUBBLE", but this is only partially tru, by God's design, who has me engaged in a smaller bubble of His own creation, for me, not you(generic)- the theologian. The scriptures addres all of theses differring levels as wheels within wheels and at any given point in time our theoretical approach may not be real for the person the scripture is speaking to in micrcosm rather than macrocosm.

Therefore, I dont see that we serve one another well when we preclude certain simple statements of scripture. They are meant for the microcosm. They do not negate the macro, but neither does the macro negate them. God has designed it this way to shave our pride and to always keep us off balance as we try to put bubbles in boxes and stack em on a shelf :o)

[eaglesway]

I prefer to say, "WHATEVER BUBBLE YOU ARE IN IT IS FLOATING WITHIN THE GREATEST BUBBLE OF ALL- GOD"S LOVE, IF THE BUBBLE YOU ARE IN POPS, POPS WILL CATCH YOU, UR GONNA BE ALL RITE!    ;o)

[Seth]

Lol .. Bubbles.  :gimmefive:

[eaglesway]

 :gimmefive:

[micah7:9]

"Ultimately, whether my view is correct or the other view is correct- God is ultimately causing all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose, which is the reconciliation of all. In the meantime, while we await the parting of the veil until we know as we are known, we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. :o)" EW

To finish that verse, there is a coma or semi colon after verse 12 .... 12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,

13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

I, me, personally accept what you are saying EW although I receive it as a "free" choice not a free will. :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Yea. Free will is a theological term. I know James prefers man's will. I use free will because it seemed easier than always redefining new terms for it. Free choice works fine for me. I have always used "a measure of free will" but "a measure of freedom to choose" works just as well for me.

I feel like the symbol of the Bride, is about the freedom to choose. She may not choose her husband(betrothal's were not always free back in the day), but she chooses whether to love Him or not. My feeling is, if He chose her, and gave her the love to love Him, and then chose in her for her to love Him- then she may be His Bride but she will never be His lover.

Any man knows that the most satisfying thing about a woman's love, is that she gives it freely to the one she loves, out of a fountain that is her own wellspring. If she gives me back what was always my own because I willed it, again, she is not my lover. I believe God gives everyone a measure of "freedom to choose" and woos it like a lover(Song of Solomon) and takes great joy in the wooing and the winning.

[micah7:9]

 :happyclap:

[Seth]

What is the difference between free choice and free will?

[micah7:9]

Free will 1) freedom of decision or of choice between alternatives 2) the freedom of the will to choose a course of action without external coercion but in accordance with the ideals or moral outlook of the individual. b) the doctrine that people have such freedom(opposed to Determinism)

Determinism the doctrine that everything, including one's choice of action, is the necessary result of a sequence of causes.

Free 1) not under the control of some other person or some arbitrary power, able to act or think without compulsion or arbitrary restriction; having liberty; independence.

Will 1) the power of making a reasoned choice or decision or of controlling one's own actions

Choice 1) the act of choosing; selection 2) the right, power, or chance to choose; option

[Seth]

So if the will isn't free, then how is the choice free? I guess that is my question.

[micah7:9]

I believe that would be found in the mind of Christ.

1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,

13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

[Seth]

I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?

I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.

[Seth]

Also, if God has perfect foreknowledge doesn't he already know if Paul's admonition will be followed or not making their choices predetermined according to foreknowledge?

[ed]

I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?

I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.

If our will was free we would not be bound by choice.

There are only options.  We can not will something that is not an option.

Started from the bottom up..................just talking.

:winkgrin:

[micah7:9]

I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?

I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.

A choice is an option of two or more, to select. Now I am a man/human and I am told not to do something, I must choose to do or not to do, I have the will to do or not to do, but that will must have a trigger something that can cause me to make the choice. If my will to choose is free how can I choose when nothing is there to auction what impels me to make a choice?
Free 1) not under the control of some other person or some arbitrary power, able to act or think without compulsion or arbitrary restriction; having liberty; independence.
What is pushing me to choose? What is there to cause me to choose? I'm free to choose but I don't know which one is better or worse, nothing has caused me to make a choice.

I got it, I understand it, I believe that there must be a cause for every action, I don't choose without some cause for me to chose. I may not be able to put in understandable words.
The boys didn't just dump Joseph in a hole without a cause, they made the choice to dump him in the hole because of the Lord's will, He was the cause of their choice.
Did Paul of his own "free" will just decide to preach Jesus, he just road down to Damscus and just free willed, by gosh I think I'll just start preaching this Jesus instead of killing the folks who believe, or was there a cause that directed his choice?

[micah7:9]

I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?

I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.

If our will was free we would not be bound by choice.

There are only options.  We can not will something that is not an option.

Started from the bottom up..................just talking.

:winkgrin:

Yes, something must cause us to choose or we would ennie minnie minny moe our selfs nuts.

[joeteekay]

A choice is made on the bases of a preference we have for something. It is the result of life experiences. I choose to buy a red car because I like the colour red.

The will we have is a desire for something.  Our will may be for something good or something bad. Does not lust come from a desire? Reminds me of chaper 1 of James.

Just my  :2c:

[dajomaco]

I think the greatest area of free will has to do with feelings.

God has overwhelmed the world with reasons to give thanks.

But as a matter of my free will I can thank him or not.

I give God a truly heartfelt thanks for this forum .

[saintwalee]

I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?
I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.

In the followoing Verse, the word willing is used regarding the Lord's will. In the YLT, "counseling" is used instead of "will".
2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If we were to substitute the word "choosing" instead of "willing", does that change the meaning of the verse? It would seems to move it from a definite act to and act of decision. Does God need to make a decision that any should perish? Or is it more of a declaration of a King?

The word "will" has many usages, but for this, I am presenting it as a declaration as apposed to a choice. Within that context, I think the difference between the two is manifested.

Does the word Counsel shed any more light on this. From Websters dictionary "...
b :  a policy or plan of action or behavior"
From this, it would seem to indicate the same thing as "declaration", not as a choice. Put the word "planning" into the phrase "... not planning that any should perish". God's plan is that none should perish, so the same thought applies.

The difference is difficult to "see", but I think their is a difference between "will" and "choice".

Therefore, I don't think that man has his own will, his own declaration, or his own plan. I think that man is given choices within certain parameters in which to grow, as has been previously discussed. And as has also been pointed out, free will is not scriptural, but choice definitely is, a limited amount of free choice.

[Seth]

Oh there is definitely a difference between will and choice, I agree. The will is a capacity to make a choice, the genesis of choice and a choice is the selection of two or more options.

My whole question had to do with what a FREE choice vs a FREE will, and whether you can make a free choice without a free will.

[Seth]

I am trying to understand the definitions of the phrases we are using and how they differ. I still don't understand the difference between "free will" and "free choice." Is it possible to have a free choice without a free will? If so, how?

I am asking for an explanation, not a scripture without an explanation.

If our will was free we would not be bound by choice.

There are only options.  We can not will something that is not an option.

Started from the bottom up..................just talking.

:winkgrin:

Yes, something must cause us to choose or we would ennie minnie minny moe our selfs nuts.

My idea is that a choice starts with the will. If the will is influenced by the invisible hand of God whether it be to allow them to be subject to the devil or himself, then the choice looks free, but is not free, because the will is not free. That's just how I think of it right now.

[saintwalee]

Oh there is definitely a difference between will and choice, I agree. The will is a capacity to make a choice, the genesis of choice and a choice is the selection of two or more options.

My whole question had to do with what a FREE choice vs a FREE will, and whether you can make a free choice without a free will.

"I am willing to make a choice."  I just wanted to spell that out as a sentence so it would help for some clarification to me.

I still would think the same thing applies, that we are afforded a limited amount of free will to make choices, whether those choices are free or coerced.

Do we have free will to ultimately determine, or choose our salvation. I would say no. Do we have free will to do any one of life's mundane tasks? I would say yes. Does God sometimes direct us to do His will, such as calling Saul, or hardening Pharoh's heart? Indeed.

So my answer would be No. One cannot make a free choice without a free will. But I would also add, that our free will is limited, not authorized to go beyond the bounds given to it. I like EW's way he put it, circles within circles.

[joeteekay]

I guess this question will continue to be debated and it is a refreshing thing to discuss and exchange ideas about.
But is it and endless debate? So mcuh has been written and said about "choices" and "free will".
It does come down to a discussion on what is really meant by FREE :dontknow: