My belief/understanding is, that God doesn't necessarily - maybe even typically - appeal to an unbeliever's mind, the intellect - convincing them that everything He says about Himself is true, and expecting them to believe and understand everything within the scriptures right off the bat. I believe He appeals with His Spirit spiritually to us, to our spirit - as He calls and chooses, each in His own order. Otherwise, IMO, that would be a "head knowledge", not a spiritual new birth from above - and "even the devils believe and tremble".
I understand that God may deal with each of us in somewhat different ways, however He chooses. But I think of a few instances - Nicodemus was told that he needed a new (spiritual) birth. The jailer was told to "believe ON Jesus" - not "fully understand and accept", but BELIEVE. And we're told elsewhere that we only believe through faith, AND THAT NOT OF OURSELVES. And Paul wasn't asked to understand and accept - he was "captured" by Christ, miraculously visited and overwhelmed and overcome. Personally, when I was saved, I had little concept of what everything meant theologically - but I was visited in conviction by the Holy Spirit, and was ENABLED to kneel and cry out to be saved and forgiven. Not by MY knowing, but by God's "capturing" me on that day. I had NOTHING to do with it.
PERSONALLY, I don't see the benefit of getting in an intellectual struggling match with an atheist or confirmed unbeliever (or even believer, for that matter). In 2 Timothy 3 or 4, Paul said to avoid pointless arguments, that they lead nowhere, and even are damaging to those involved/looking on. We are told to declare/proclaim (I Tim 4:10,11) -"how can they call upon Whom they have not heard?" - and we always need to show love (I fall painfully short) - and then I believe, "let" God's Spirit do God's work of calling and drawing as He sees fit and suits His purposes. We're told God makes vessels of honor and dishonor - we each serve a purpose in God's plan, and eventually this - "He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on Earth." (Ephesians 1:9-10)
Some of my thoughts, thanks, James.
Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
I do not argue with atheists, the vast majority of atheists are in disbelief of the God of Christianity and Islam and the image that believers have given them.
I am an Atheist as well.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 25, 2010, 02:40:10 AM
I am an Atheist as well.
A person who does not accept a particular faith; an infidel who disbelieves,
and doubts a particular theory or creed short of Revelation? :thumbsup:
No argument here.
peacemaker
The real fact is that the Bible is a big pile of crap written by men, full of contradictions, inconsistencies (God of love who not only murderers innocent children but lets them suffer for a few weeks before they die??), and Im getting out before my head gets really xxxxx up. Fed up of making excuses for this crap. :thumbdown:
Mod edit for language. - Marc, you'll be able to post in 1 week - please see PM. There will be folks praying for you.
Who or what stole your joy, Marc?
Those are not the words of a man that loves his God.
And no one has to defend God or the Bible, He takes care of that in His own Way — not our way.
I try and stick with the simple Jesus saves will save is saving.
I went through that dark time trying to figure out why God did things this way or that, all it did was drag me down.
Still do sometimes, but God pulls me out of that mindset I pray he continues.
As long as I remember God is in control, I can make it.
This works for me.
:thumbsup:
A book cannot be judged by its cover, only the contents.
"Death and desolation; highly infectious."
peacemaker
Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever - someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)
I think it's helpful to point out that atheism in its purest form is a religion [although I doubt they would like to hear that] . They absolutely deny the existence of a God, any god, of any religion. There is no God. Period.
This is different from an agnostic, for instance, who claims he just doesn't know if there is a God or not.
Why is atheism a religion?
re·li·gion
–noun
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
Given this, I mostly just try to stay away from the topic of religion, but I will not deny my belief should the topic come up, nor will I back down or be intimidated. Atheists tend to proselytize as much as Christians do lol.
Quote from: Molly on February 25, 2010, 07:26:55 AM
Why is atheism a religion?
re·li·gion
–noun
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
Then the fanclub of a movie star is also a religion.
Doubting Thomas?
A freethinker, agnostic, apostate, atheist, cynic, disbeliever, dissenter, doubter, heathen, heretic, infidel, materialist, misanthrope (egotist), misbeliever, nihilist (rebel), pagan, pessimist, profaner, questioner, rationalist, scoffer or merely a skeptic -- predicated on the words declared by others; an unbeliever.
"Denying the gods of this world and the council of their religions."
You are Excused from jury duty, and from their judgments; An ecclesiastical assembly for deciding matters of doctrine or discipline.
peacemaker
Good thoughts James.
Love is pretty bottomline.
Man (myself included) likes to have things under control. To know, understand - I guess be a little god. I think that is the biggest problem I see in evangelicalism. We want all of our belief system tied together in a neat little package we can control. It is probably at its root a huge problem of pride.
I was reading some stuff by Talbott this morning and he went on and on about how Jesus talked in stories and parables that can be interpreted in so many different ways and have different layers to them. If he was trying to lay out a systematic theology for us he did a crappy job. At the same time he was clearly forceful for and against some things. For loving, serving things and against things that separated people from God. Anyway, the point is, seems like God wants our heart more than our mind.
When I am in a reaction I am usually not all that useful, unless somehow the grace of God has triumphed over me and I happen to react out of my spirit man, in which case I find myself fruitful on occasion. The challenge of the life of Jesus to me is walking in fellowship with my Father- not having answers for people. Sometimes answers are good. Sometimes they are just more fuel for a fire that needs to burn itself out. I would like a nice tall drink from the well in Jerusalem right about now, living waters from the river that makes glad the city of God....peace my brothers and sisters, be ye atheist, agnostic, antagonistic or actively walking in the Spirit :o)