Did any of you ever belong to an evangelical, protestant or Catholic Church?

[Universalist Catholic]

I guess things really did change alot.  My dad told me the same stories about the hell-ranting nuns.  My Grandpa had this massive fear of going to hell before I was even born.  Apparently my Great Grandmother from Italy was a real fanatic about all that Churchish stuff.  But this one priest from this one church says he believes in hell, but does not believe anyone is there.  He explained that if God could just take them aside and show them how their sins hurt others, they would repent and choose going through Purgatory than Hell.  Interesting, that goes against most Traditionalists Dogmas of death sealing your eternal fate.  Most people do not even believe that very many souls go to hell today.  At least people are finally thinking outside the box away from all that church sanctioned Dogma. 

[Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7]

"truth, & Lies....

[Shadow]

I guess things really did change alot.  My dad told me the same stories about the hell-ranting nuns.  My Grandpa had this massive fear of going to hell before I was even born.  Apparently my Great Grandmother from Italy was a real fanatic about all that Churchish stuff.  But this one priest from this one church says he believes in hell, but does not believe anyone is there.  He explained that if God could just take them aside and show them how their sins hurt others, they would repent and choose going through Purgatory than Hell.  Interesting, that goes against most Traditionalists Dogmas of death sealing your eternal fate.  Most people do not even believe that very many souls go to hell today.  At least people are finally thinking outside the box away from all that church sanctioned Dogma. 

There is an excellent book that deals with spiritual abuse called by Spiritual Terrorism: Spiritual Abuse from the Womb to the Tomb by Boyd C Purcell which I'm busy reading at the moment which can be ordered HERE, he discusses how the churches abuse their members both catholic and protestant (the ebook is only 5.95 and is expected to go up to $9.99), I'm finding it is helping me tremendously as I suffered a near nervous breakdown due to the ET doctrine and even tried to undergo a complete deconversion, but I couldn't become totally convinced that there isn't a God no matter what I read trying to convince me otherwise

[WhiteWings]

Hi Shadow. Long time no see :laughing7:
If you think it's a good book you maybe can put the link in your signature.
Many are struggling with it so it would be helpful.

Just a friendly suggestion that's all  :bgdance:

[Shadow]

Hi Shadow. Long time no see :laughing7:
If you think it's a good book you maybe can put the link in your signature.
Many are struggling with it so it would be helpful.

Just a friendly suggestion that's all  :bgdance:

Thanks WW, hope you are well, too I have amended my signature with a clickable link to the book, I'm glad I discovered it, it was by pure chance as I was actually looking for something else at the time about 2 months ago

[Universalist Catholic]

Shadow, I like the cat picture.

[WhiteWings]

I'm just curious about that battle chess picture :laughing7:

[coldwar]

I have stayed in that stream of thought until my recent decision to become Catholic.

As in Roman Catholic?

I dont think they believe in Universalism.

Don't be too sure- here are some wonderful quotes from John Paul II:

"In proclaiming the Risen Lord, Christians present the One who inaugurates a new era of history and announce to the world the good news of a complete and universal salvation which contains in itself the pledge of a new world in which pain and injustice will give way to joy and beauty. At the beginning of a new millennium marked by a clearer awareness of the universality of salvation and a realization that the Gospel daily needs to be proclaimed anew, the Synodal Assembly raised an appeal that our commitment to mission should not be lessened but rather expanded, through ever more profound missionary cooperation." (Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Pastores Gregis)

Especially in times of growing unbelief and indifference, hope is a stalwart support for faith and an effective incentive for love. It draws its strength from the certainty of God's desire for the salvation of all people (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) and from the constant presence of the Lord Jesus, the Emmanuel who remains with us always, until the end of the world (cf. Mt 28:20)... The certainty of this profession of faith must be such that it daily strengthens a Bishop's hope and makes him increasingly confident of the unfailing power of God's merciful goodness to open up paths of salvation and propose them to the freedom of each person.

Ave Crux, spes unica! May this acclamation, which echoed in the Synod Hall at the central moment of the work of the Tenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, remain ever on our lips, for the Cross is a mystery of life and death. The Cross has become for the Church a ''tree of life''. For this reason we proclaim that life has triumphed over death"

Blessings!

[coldwar]

More from JP II
Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever 'clad in a robe dipped in blood' (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation. (Message of John Paul II to the Abbess General of the Order of the Most Holy Saviour of St Bridget)



·         If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this 'judgment,' undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ's work aimed at universal salvation. We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation. (General Audience of May 24, 1989)

... and from Vatican II:

The following is taken from the constitution Gaudium et Spes (1:45, 2:57).



·         While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God's kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is 'the universal sacrament of salvation' simultaneously manifesting and actualising the mystery of God's love.

For God's Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself. The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings. He it is Whom the Father raised from the dead, lifted on high and stationed at His right hand, making Him judge of the living and the dead. Enlivened and united in His Spirit, we journey toward the consummation of human history, one which fully accords with the counsel of God's love: 'To reestablish all things in Christ, both those in the heavens and those on the earth' (Eph. 1:10).

Both of these are from http://www.romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm

I'm not RC, but if I understand correctly, Vatican II has been "the cream" for Catholics since the mid '60's hasn't it? From this, can we assume the official Vatican position is for Universal Restoration? Individual Catholics may indeed differ.

I'm Anglican, a church that allows a broad range of belief, so I can remain so, and at the same time pitch my tent with Roman Catholics on at least the UR doctrine.

[Universalist Catholic]

Never heard of this.  Very interesting

[thinktank]

As an universalist does the idea of the Catholic purgatory, fit in with Universalism?

Because, there seem to be scriptures that do have the idea that the wicked will, not have it so easy and is it not logical to assume that if all wicked are given another chance to accept Jesus as lord , then wouldn't they have to go through repentance and cleansing, isn't this what purgatory is about.

Maybe it is not identical to purgatory but in likeness in that the wicked will have to change their ways.

[WhiteWings]

As an universalist does the idea of the Catholic purgatory, fit in with Universalism?
.....
Maybe it is not identical to purgatory but in likeness in that the wicked will have to change their ways.

For me it has some resemblance with LoF.
But obiviously not for those whole believe there is no awareness in LoF.
There are as much deniominations in UR as there are in ET.

[Nathan]

I struggle with the idea of purgatory due to the fact that it would then suggest the power of the cross wasn't enough to redeem us back to the Father . . .it requires the cross . . .AND . . .time spent in suspension awaiting for saints on earth to send up enough prayers to release you  . . . it seems to go against the nature of Truth in general.

[Universalist Catholic]

I think Purgatory is just a way to battle out the contradictions of the doctrine.  The bible describes the Fires to be cleansing fires, and people getting out eventually.  However the Western Dogma told us that Souls which go to hell remain in hell for all eternity.  We have some scriptural contradictions.  Getting out of the fire?  We'll invent a new place called purgatory.  What I find ridiculus is the belief that the only way a soul can leave purgatory is if people pray them out.  If you supposedly do a requim mass for them, a soul leaves purgatory.  The saints are supposedly helpless in this matter. 

[reFORMer]

The Reformation came and went and the Roman Catholic Church is still with us and going strong.  They still sell Masses for the dead to get them out of Purgatory.  Indulgences are still for sale.  There's still a hot market for "Objects of Veneration," that is, objects to worship can be bought.  The tip of St Anne's finger, the cup of St Anthony, a sliver of the authentic cross...this sort of thing.  Working where they bussed in people from Mexico to work, a fellow gave me a little medal with a ribbon on it.  I didn't know what it was and one of them who could speak English explained the guy offering it to me had paid to get it before he did the sin.  He was using it to ask me to go sin with him because the sin was already forgiven.

[Universalist Catholic]

Did anyone find the Catholic, Protestant or Evangelical Churches too legalistic?  What about the SDA and Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons?

[thinktank]

 I often find that my view of the Catholic Church is like a coin

One one hand I see them as being highly religious, having a form of godliness but denying the power, obsessions with sacraments and various items as such, and a questionable history concerning the crusades and such.

But other side of the coin, I sense that the Catholic Church values the sacredness of God more than the other denominations, they have some great champions of the faith, such as mother Teresa and there is something classical about them, almost like the Rolls Royce of Churches. I also sometimes do like the items they use, such as often using the cross to ward of evil spirits and using holy water etc, they are also seemingly the strongest at supporting familly values, such as the sacredness of sexual relations.

In fact most denominations have something great to offer.

The evangelists are great at preaching the gospel and reaching the lost.
The Pentecostals are great at prayer meetings
The baptists are great at being grumpy
And the Charismatics are great at acting like fools  :laughing7:

[coldwar]

As an universalist does the idea of the Catholic purgatory, fit in with Universalism?

Maybe it is not identical to purgatory but in likeness in that the wicked will have to change their ways.

I think it does fit, once it is stripped of all it's excess baggage. For me it equates to the time of Judgment, when ALL people will be "salted with fire", and likened to Paul's description of our works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble". Some is refined, some is burned and lost forever, with the soul saved, "but as by fire". There is one judgment for all people, not one for Christians and a separate one for the lost.

My belief would be that going through this common fire is intended to be "purgative", hence loosely connected to "purgatory"

Dave

[thinktank]

Good post coldwar

But im not so sure that there is only one judgement for Christians and non. Revelation says

That we shall be priests of God and reign with Christ for a thousand years, on such the second death has no power, but the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were up.


While the non beliver who died are taken out of the sea, and [hell](which I think in its original means, the grave)
They were judged according to their works, those who have done good into life and those who have done evil into the lake of fire.


So I think there are 2 judgements

One that is happening now and God is looking for overcomers, to sit with him at his throne, who will be resurected at the last trumpet.

And the second great white throne judgement, where the rest of the dead are resurected and must face judgement.

Man is appointed once to die and then the judgement

[Nathan]

Have we not already died?  Did not Christ already take the judgment deemed for us, upon himself?  Why would we choose to believe in another judgment when the cross already dealt with that?

[coldwar]

Have we not already died?  Did not Christ already take the judgment deemed for us, upon himself?  Why would we choose to believe in another judgment when the cross already dealt with that?

That's the judgment for sin. There remains a judgment for the works of all men and women (also angels perhaps, as Paul says we shall judge angels).

"Saved by grace, judged by works"

Dave

[coldwar]

So I think there are 2 judgements

One that is happening now

Yes- I would have to agree with you- just to amplify that point, Christ said "for NOW is the judgment of this world... and if I be lifted up, will draw all men to myself... signifying the death he would die. So certainly in that sense, the judgment for sin remains fully in force, for all people for all time RIGHT NOW, doesn't it?

But still there remains- it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment. This would be as you alluded to the second resurrection, wherein the works of all will be judged- Great White Throne, some gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay , stubble (what many eronoiusly refer to as the "Bema Judgment, distinct from the white throne)

[coldwar]

... almost like the Rolls Royce of Churches.

This could be fun-
Roman Catholic- how about a Maybach instead of a Rolls, as the present Pope is German
Anglican / Episcopal- VW Jetta TDI - has a little bit of everything
Baptist- Chevy Silverado - guzzlin' old traditional pickup truck that never changes
Pentecostal- Geo Tracker - tendency to roll over
United Methodist - VW Hippie Van
Lutheran- Mercedes Benz (obviously)
Benny Hinn Ministries- Cadillac Escalade - wasteful, extravigent and weird

Any others???

[Beloved Servant]

Criticizing our brothers and sisters in Christ is fun?

[coldwar]

Criticizing our brothers and sisters in Christ is fun?

Sorry- I meant no harm. Actually, I've been in all of these denominations in the past, except Lutheran and Catholic. Can we look at it as making fun of denominations, but not the people in them?