Critique on Carmelo Brenes' "testimony" of going to hell and back?

[ChiniChani]

Hello, I was just wondering if anyone can debunk Carmelo Brenes' testimony "Christians who Wound up in Hell"? I have reason to believe his testimony is like Mary Baxter's, a fake. But for over a year Carmelo has been my anxiety "rival" and I can find no valid critique against him. His fake testimony still haunts me (as it's the only one I read through and through, don't have the stomach to fully read the others without a critique's aid). I keep having anxiety that his testimony isn't fake, even though I know in my spirit that it is a fake, as it's too similar to Mary Baxter. But he wrote it in such a way that it's extremely difficult to debunk, and I don't have the bravery to read it again and create my own critique. I can understand if it's not possible, I'm just really fed up with this guy and I can't seem to find rest until his testimony is completely debunked and proven false, despite the way he wrote it.  :sigh:

While I will admit it's to ease my constant anxiety about it, there are so many other people who are just as terrified by his tale, and don't believe it's just that, a tale. I've read YouTube comments of people being scared out of their wits and praying desperately to be saved and it's breaking my heart.

Like I said, he wrote it in such a way that it's cleverly extremely hard to debunk. Carmelo was no idiot, but there has to be something he missed or any mistakes he made that's very hard to spot and cleverly covered up.

Thanks!

-CC

[GodIsLove]

I've read tons of NDEs (near death experiences). I don't know about this particular one but my general thoughts are:

1) anyone who claims to go to hell and came back immediately disproves an eternal hell (because they are no longer there). The common theme is often something like when they call on God/Jesus they are saved from hell. So if you ever find yourself there, do that :)
2) people have all kinds of visions, it doesn't mean they are true. Visions can be hallucinations, drug induced, illness induced, result of fever, mental illness, whatever.
3) the majority of NDEs are actually positive and talk of an overwhelming feeling of love. Some theorize negative NDEs are a result of a person's own guilt, fear etc. Lots of NDEs are intriguing but we really have no idea if they are the result of brain activity, if some are outright fakes, and some are real, or none are.

[jabcat]

I believe hell is a made up word - a mish-mash conglomeration where carefully specific scriptural words were smashed together to equal a pagan concept.

Jesus spoke of limited correction, not a never-ending vengeful torment.

Christians - those called out, given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise "UNTO THAT DAY!!", do not end up in a made up word place.  They are in the presence of the Father and the Lamb in the kingdom, being transformed into His likeness and being used by Him, and worshiping Him.  Any judgment of the ecclesia is in the presence of the Father and for a useful purpose, and does not involve them being cast away into a literal fiery pit of unending horrendous torture.  They/we are His children, not bastards to be cast aside.  Having been given sonship and sealed into His family, then to be thrown away based on our works or lack thereof, IMO is just not scriptural or sensical.  So I'd have to say the fellow was either confused/imagining things, or worse.    :2c:

[Ross]

Like I said, he wrote it in such a way that it's cleverly extremely hard to debunk. Carmelo was no idiot, but there has to be something he missed or any mistakes he made that's very hard to spot and cleverly covered up.

Key question, for me- if hell is there why does Paul say the following;

1 Tim 1;20 " Among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, who I have delivered over to Satan so they can be taught not to blaspheme."

Jesus says; " MANY will come in my name and prophesy in my name and cast out demons in my name- but I NEVER knew them."

The doctrine of hell makes God to be hateful; makes Him declare "love me or else."
Even in our limited understanding of love we do not threaten others to love us, so why would God Who is greater than us?- because that is what the doctrine of hell implies.

[Shev]

Ultimately, however amazing, compelling and persuasive these hell testimonies are, they must be placed on one side of the scales, with the testimony of the scriptures at the other end. They will all be weighed and found wanting through that process.

[marie glen]

 :girlheart: brothers and sister, you nailed it!!

:iagree: :iagree: God is Good!

{today I realized this, I knew from the word logos, is logic, but dah, I didn't realize - "Logos" - God's Word and Logic is one. The Logos is Logic. And logic is the word. (I.e. it can’t be ridiculously illogical.

When reading about this in my head was the vision of a huge red adversary with pitchfork turning over tortured bodies in the flames. Tending the fire I guess.. A daydream of Satan?

“Resist the adversary and he will flee” ..don’t forget the “large covering shield of faith” Trust! Our shield from the arrows and darts of the adversar(s) is our trust of Him. The darts and arrows fall broken to the ground. They cannot penetrate through our convinced trust ..of Him! Our Heavenly Father, who “is Love”.

[WhiteWings]

Hell is a sick fantasy of a horror story writer. A blasphemy.

The thing that comes closest to Christians in hell is the parable of the sheep and goats.

[sheila]

...thosetakenintocaptivity ofthe adversary...develope a Stockholm like syndrome...for the godof this world..that sitsintheirtemple

andsay...'iamgod" an imposter spirit declaringI AM the christ! the scriptures must befulfilled...thosemeant forcaptivity...thesword....

thewomenraped[forcedinto 'carnalknowledge"......honouring a godof force/compulson.


   LOVE ME WITH AFFECTION...ye that love. Our TRUE FATHER,creator,GOD.  :2c:

[marie glen]

Hell is a sick fantasy of a horror story writer. A blasphemy.

Amen.. "blasphemy" against Him and His pure and stellar/perfect character (and also ability)  :iagree: :iagree: blasphemes Him every day.. and keeps many from being able to believe/come to the faith (can we really blame tham?!)

The thing that comes closest to Christians in hell is the parable of the sheep and goats.

...and the tares gathered to be burned, which both, I believe, occur "at His return"... like Rev chapter 14, two harvests, one being the grapes of wrath,outside the city.. what city? Jerusalem, aka, at the final battle, Armageddon.. the gathering of the tares being the gathering to Armageddon, Rev 16:14,15,16 - "At His return" pretty much concurrent (at the last trump(et) "He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8 (with Truth, aka, the results of man's own doings/fruit (apparent) which is judgment. (Including some believer's works burnt up.)

fire - rev 6:4 given; rev 6:12-17 its first and last/birth and maturity blended in the description - then, 7:1 where we (still) are at now and; rev 13:13 pinpointing an office

  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

ChiniChani: Please think about this:

Believing in Jesus equals eternal life.
If you read the sheep and goat judgement parable you will see that the goats are also Christians.
They go to hell, the fire.
How can that be? A contradiction?
Don't think so...

[marie glen]

Amen!

And ChiniChani, keep reading His Word.. the New Testament of His promise/He gave His word.. and psalms! Read it, eat it, digest it.. rebuke any voice, inkling, which sounds like condemnation, etc.. The onLy ones Jesus spoke roughly to were those who were "standing in the door" not going in, and by their teaching and authority was not allowing anyone else to go in either.. I've been reading for almost 40 years which I think many here have.. And it's with the faithful reading that the clouds disperse, and things become clear.. the washing of the word.. renewed in our mind.. "God has made life simple but man has many inventions" Eccles?

"Being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." And, "..that power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead.." ..and parted the Red Sea.. etc.. etc.. [Philippians 1:6; Ephesians 1:19,20]

Jesus calmed the storm.. the wind and waves.. :Peace2: God bless!

[rosered]

  Amen to   you all  !!   :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

I cannot help but think  of years ago  , when I was so young into searching for answers  to my million questions about  God and how was He going to save everyone  as carnal as my mind was   back than ,

   I held on to that hope knowing what ever God does it is a perfect work,  deserving of all the glory  and praise one could muster up in their soul   to be thankful  to Him for such mercy !
   I remember two  very special  people   that always made me think outside the box [I put God in ]  :eek:

  Yvonne and Loxoco   , they would press me  hard at times  by letting me know how foolish my thinking was  , but in a kind way   , by sharing   their thoughts as well as some bible tools  , that turned out to be  something I used for decades now .

  Loxoco  said, Heaven is a state of being , not a place  ,  where peace and joy and  Love is . Just as hell is not a place,  but state of being , where  guilt ,  torment and fear reside  .
I never saw that  than , I was way to literal and carnal  to understand the impact of that   powerful statement .

  But the truth is  we can be given over to our  lusts &  imaginations    that  are wild as  any  carnal nature can  get   and it can be very destructive   to ourselves and others .
Found it in the scriptures as a witness and that was confirmation to me ..  God allows this  lesson  to learn that our  own stubbornness  and  rebellion  against Him  though suffering   by so many examples    in the Word .

  If you are suffering for doing good  even , Like Jesus  proved  this truth , some resisted   and  hated Him for it .  Many ,  many miracles were not accomplished   because of  their unbelief  :sigh:

  But He was willing !!!!!  Seems the Spirit of  Life &  Truth is always willing in love and sincerity  from an honest heart that comes clean and purified  from the water baptism, washing of the Word  and being dipped into it many times till the Lord comes  and than  permanent  from   the Holy Sprint and fire baptism  of the Lord Jesus Christ gives us  to stay in  ..

And this is why I believe as I do now  and none can take this from my heart  , it is settled  as only God can do it  Himself .

When God will be all in all   , I was thinking .. How can this be Lord ?
  Well it was something Loxoco  said  many many years ago  to me that made   perfect sense , 
It was any carnal  , beast like nature    fears a fire , in the day even,   but especially by night  when it is as  the only thing they see  , except maybe the shadows   from around that Light emitting from the fire .

He went on to describe    that out west where he lived   , when the wolves and coyotes  were seeking livestock to prey upon
  the men always  built a fire   to keep those predators at bay  , because they feared the  fire  and could not understand it .

  I took this to heart and  kept it   but never  figured out  what it meant  or the full impact of it , till recently .


This dawned on me ,  Like a WOW! moment ...    GOD IS a consuming fire , nothing  evil can dwell in His presence  ever !!
Only that of His own substance and nature can !!
    This was an epiphany  to me    , the Love and the Light and the fire of His consuming  presence  is the total end result !


I thought of the  burning bush that was not consumed  when God was showing Moses a bit of Himself and in Daniel   the   3 children  in the fire and one was like the son of man in their presence and they were not consumed by the fire ! but were as
  within  the fire  and presence of God and   His likeness .

I thought of the descriptive's of Jesus   Presence  as eyes that were flames of Fire and a body of Beryl that shines  forth His arms and feet shone like polished bronze, and his voice roared like a vast multitude of people. ... His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like Flames , torches ... His voice thundered forth like the sound of a large crowd.  in Daniel 10 and   feet that are a burnished brass glowing in a furnace  in Rev 1  , in His transfiguration on that mountain in   Matthew 17:2 states that Jesus "was transfigured before them; his face shining as the sun, and his garments became white as the light." At that point the prophets Elijah and Moses appear and Jesus begins to talk to them.


  I than realized  it was the fire of Gods love and jealousy   that would keep all evil away forever more .  Nothing  can  exist  without being dissolved   except   the very nature of Himself and likeness  that we  are made by Him to be as  though the Lord Jesus Christ  , Holy Spirit and fire baptism   had a whole new meaning   from this point on    and  in His death of the cross  in Luke 12;49    Had come to set this  world  on fire   ...

It really was a revelation  of sorts  and has kept me  going  with even more hope than ever   and not to fear the fire  any longer  that so many many , many still fear the most , It is God  that  they fear and just do not know this  yet !!  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen Rose!! "a perfect work"... the verses you posted and thoughts ...very much ministered to my mind..

  :ty: awesome! ...Truth is awesome.. His word/truth is glorious!

  :thumbsup: :cloud9:

[GodIsLove]

Great post Rose!

[jugghead]

For me, what this man experienced, is a revelation, not a revelation of the nature of Christ, but a revelation of the nature of men

Which relates to all three of the temptations of Christ in the wilderness

This revelation has become the pinnacle of the temple (a revelation of the flesh) and will he jump?

This revelation has become a kingdom of the world (kingdom of the flesh) and will he bow down to his own mind and rule in it?

This revelation has become a rock (doctrine of the flesh) and will he turn it into his bread of life?

Has the door to the kingdom of God (His wedding feast) been shut to this man?

Will he tear down his barns and build a greater one?

I pray that God will grant him repentance or he will die in the nature he has been shown

to debunk his experience is for him to hear that he has been shown the nature of men, not the nature of God, the problem is:

Will he listen?

[rosered]

Great post Rose!

  Gods blessings to  you and yours sister ,,,,, Thankful He is teachings us all  about Him and His pure heart towards us all  [mankind] :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

For me, what this man experienced, is a revelation, not a revelation of the nature of Christ, but a revelation of the nature of men

Which relates to all three of the temptations of Christ in the wilderness

This revelation has become the pinnacle of the temple (a revelation of the flesh) and will he jump?

This revelation has become a kingdom of the world (kingdom of the flesh) and will he bow down to his own mind and rule in it?

This revelation has become a rock (doctrine of the flesh) and will he turn it into his bread of life?

Has the door to the kingdom of God (His wedding feast) been shut to this man?

Will he tear down his barns and build a greater one?

I pray that God will grant him repentance or he will die in the nature he has been shown

to debunk his experience is for him to hear that he has been shown the nature of men, not the nature of God, the problem is:

Will he listen?

  Amen Brother   Jugghead !  ...

  Gods desire  is none should perish  , but repent   , Gods will be  done on earth as it is in Heaven ,    I do believe it is the case ,as you judge , so shall YOU be judged ... 

  What ever is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever is loosed on earth will be loosed   in Heaven  !!
 
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."

Both of these agree with the two laws and natures at work in mankind ,  Being   the old covenant of   sin  that binds us to death   and the new covenant  of Life in Christ  is Free ,  the Truth sets you free ...
  The key is to forgive  everyone of everything ,  and be forgiven of the Lord .      :dsunny:

[jugghead]

Just wanted to add that I was hesitant to post to this thread, but as I reread it several times, and then several times more, each played a part in my motive to post, especially you rose in what you wrote and MG in what you wrote in another thread.

I thank God for you all that He has brought you into my walk with Him, for to expand our understanding of what He is doing with mankind as a whole, expands His Grace in us towards others.

With the opening post by CC- what did this guy miss? - God's understanding of what he was shown .... that being the nature of men

In another thread MG spoke of "the judge of the living and the dead", this is what God is all about in us to free us from the bondage of sin, the bondage of missing the mark

We rule with Christ as a judge of "THE LIVING SPIRIT" and "the dead flesh", not a judge of the person themselves, but a judge of the nature that is most prominent by the words they speak ..... for it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.

[marie glen]

the old covenant of   sin  that binds us to death

Wow! I never thought of it in exactly that way! But it's waay true..! (Our Father is very orderly..?)

   and the new covenant  of Life in Christ  is Free ,  the Truth sets you free ...

   :thumbsup: :banana: :cloud9: amen!

  The key is to forgive  everyone of everything ,  and be forgiven of the Lord .      :dsunny:

    :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: Amen sister!

to expand our understanding of what He is doing with mankind as a whole, expands His Grace in us towards others.

            to free us from the bondage of sin, the bondage of missing the mark

Amen! for a bondage it surely is! ...to be locked into... destruction... for missing the mark is the way of death.. ..."those things which lead to death"..

We rule with Christ as a judge of "THE LIVING SPIRIT" and "the dead flesh"

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...able to discern (understand) good from evil..

With the opening post by CC- what did this guy miss? - God's understanding of what he was shown .... that being the nature of men

   Amen! ...won't it be so awesome when no one any longer misreads God!  :cloud9:

[rosered]

  I am Thankful   to God  for everything and this place and my brothers and sisters in Christ ,

  For the  new member Chini Chani and her post .

  So glad you  posted bro Jugg !
Everyone sharing   , We are so very blessed of God

Amen! ...won't it be so awesome when no one any longer misreads God!

Amen Sister Marie !
Amazing grace though our loving Lord Jesus Christ  upon us all ....

[ChiniChani]

Thanks guys. :) Sorry I rarely post here, and keep really only posting distressed topics (one day I'll hopefully make a more cheerful one, or something more casual), it's a severe anxiety phase I'm going through that requires medication and therapy (the latter we can't afford yet unfortunately). Hopefully it'll pass like the others did, and I can finally relax on Universalism and not worry about those kinds of stories. I really appreciate the kind words! Maybe it's me still being a relatively new Universalist and I need to put everything in order, I was Fundamentalist for the majority of my life, just became a Universalist about a year or so ago, maybe even less. I know a guy who went through something very similar, and he's doing perfectly fine now after getting his mind in order, hopefully I'll follow soon. Anyway...

@WhiteWings, maybe I'm just tired or I'm reading it wrong, but I don't know what you mean or what you're getting at. I'm familiar with the parable but at first glance, that seems to promote Carmelo's saying. Please correct me if I misinterpreted what you said. I mean, personally I believe some Christians go to hell for a temporary amount of time if they live a very poor lifestyle and not in the image of Christ like they claim, due to more genuine Near-Death Experiences and extensive research on said phenomena. Do you believe the same thing or have I got it completely wrong with your post?

God bless you all!

-CC

[ChiniChani]

Also, if you notice, I think Carmelo plagiarizes Mary Baxter quite a lot, and Mary herself plagiarized the Bible and Dante's Inferno (and other stuff that proves her experience false that was pointed out by a man I follow named Kevin Williams of his website for near-death experiences). I think there may also be some hidden creepy pasta references in his story if one looks close enough I imagine. (Creepy pastas, for those who don't know, are fictional horror stories made up by an internet community and they've become somewhat of a "meme" I think. There's some good stories in there though, worth a read for some entertainment. Anyway...)

I think the Jesus in Carmelo's tale acts more like Hitler than the Jesus from the Bible. Not a hint of compassion in him in Carmelo's, at least Mary's "Jesus" held some small level of compassion, Carmelo's had none at all. Jesus in his story sounds like a sociopath more than anything, and part of me wonders if his "Jesus" was actually a representation of Carmelo himself? If you read the "testimony" a certain way, it represents Carmelo's personality and feelings more than reality. He has "Jesus" say he's not the God of so and so in it, nor is the real Jesus the God of Carmelo's testimony. Not to mention he's one of the only two I've heard that include children in hell, whilst most of the others don't at all. If you want my opinion, I think Carmelo's sick, narcissistic, at least. He really doesn't care, not even about children, at least that's the impression I'm getting. I'll admit some of my anger from what he's doing is talking there, along with my past as being one of his victims for a brief amount of time, but I believe it to be truth that Carmelo genuinely does have issues.

Sorry I keep rambling about this, I've kind of got this "thing" where I want to debunk and expose all of the people like Carmelo who made the false legalistic/fundamentalist hellish testimonies. Not fully as revenge (maybe a little but I know that's not a good thing to do) but to help other people (and myself as well a bit to get over my anxiety so I can finally focus on what's most important). And to bring justice to the people who did harm. I guess kind of like a physical abuse victim who wants to stop other abusers. I know I'm trying to justify myself for all these ramblings and pleads for critiques against these people, and I really do apologize if this is causing any grief to anyone. I'm just really desperate, and I want to express my feelings and beliefs. I really feel like this shouldn't go on or be left unnoticed.

[jugghead]

Hello CC, I hope you consider my words ... when something is brought to the forefront of our minds, it is part of the process of refining we go through, just as dross is brought to the top of the pot to be removed.

We tend to seek out that which we are experiencing, so is your interest in NDE (in the physical) what you are experiencing in the spiritual, that being the dying to self which again is the refining process.

Eph_6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Principalities - that which the mind can create
Powers - that which gives life to what the mind creates
rulers of the darkness - the principalities created by the mind that lacks understanding

all summed up in the one statement of spiritual wickedness in high places (spiritual wickedness in the minds of men)

you see these things in others because God is refining you from them in yourself and until it is removed it cant be seen because the flesh cannot look inward only outward, you see these things because they are being removed from you

for me our focus should be on God's refining process in us, not how we can refine another

my words here are just seeds planted, God causes the growth and it isn't until they grow and mature that it is revealed whether they are a tare or wheat .... and in the language of refining, I can add things to the mix in the pot, but God does the refining and it will be revealed whether it is dross or that which is being purified

Blessings

[DanielB]

ECT NDEs remind me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYO0joolR0

[marie glen]

...but I believe it to be truth that Carmelo genuinely does have issues.

:thumbsup: :iagree:

As did, I believe, Dante.. even if it's true as I've heard that the story ends well..? :dontknow: I try to avoid reading such stuff.. We are what we eat! As they say..

Your wanting to turn over the stone and reveal the truth.. and the underbelly, seems to me to be a good motive. But we can't do it. We can only "enter His rest" about all things - there sure are a lot of things that should not be going on.. and untruths believed, that ought not to be believed..
    :gimmefive:
                :cloud9: Thank God! We know He wins every battle!! ...the things of this world :faint: