Hello, I was just wondering if anyone can debunk Carmelo Brenes' testimony "Christians who Wound up in Hell"? I have reason to believe his testimony is like Mary Baxter's, a fake. But for over a year Carmelo has been my anxiety "rival" and I can find no valid critique against him. His fake testimony still haunts me (as it's the only one I read through and through, don't have the stomach to fully read the others without a critique's aid). I keep having anxiety that his testimony isn't fake, even though I know in my spirit that it is a fake, as it's too similar to Mary Baxter. But he wrote it in such a way that it's extremely difficult to debunk, and I don't have the bravery to read it again and create my own critique. I can understand if it's not possible, I'm just really fed up with this guy and I can't seem to find rest until his testimony is completely debunked and proven false, despite the way he wrote it. :sigh:
While I will admit it's to ease my constant anxiety about it, there are so many other people who are just as terrified by his tale, and don't believe it's just that, a tale. I've read YouTube comments of people being scared out of their wits and praying desperately to be saved and it's breaking my heart.
Like I said, he wrote it in such a way that it's cleverly extremely hard to debunk. Carmelo was no idiot, but there has to be something he missed or any mistakes he made that's very hard to spot and cleverly covered up.
Thanks!
-CC
I've read tons of NDEs (near death experiences). I don't know about this particular one but my general thoughts are:
1) anyone who claims to go to hell and came back immediately disproves an eternal hell (because they are no longer there). The common theme is often something like when they call on God/Jesus they are saved from hell. So if you ever find yourself there, do that :)
2) people have all kinds of visions, it doesn't mean they are true. Visions can be hallucinations, drug induced, illness induced, result of fever, mental illness, whatever.
3) the majority of NDEs are actually positive and talk of an overwhelming feeling of love. Some theorize negative NDEs are a result of a person's own guilt, fear etc. Lots of NDEs are intriguing but we really have no idea if they are the result of brain activity, if some are outright fakes, and some are real, or none are.
I believe hell is a made up word - a mish-mash conglomeration where carefully specific scriptural words were smashed together to equal a pagan concept.
Jesus spoke of limited correction, not a never-ending vengeful torment.
Christians - those called out, given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise "UNTO THAT DAY!!", do not end up in a made up word place. They are in the presence of the Father and the Lamb in the kingdom, being transformed into His likeness and being used by Him, and worshiping Him. Any judgment of the ecclesia is in the presence of the Father and for a useful purpose, and does not involve them being cast away into a literal fiery pit of unending horrendous torture. They/we are His children, not bastards to be cast aside. Having been given sonship and sealed into His family, then to be thrown away based on our works or lack thereof, IMO is just not scriptural or sensical. So I'd have to say the fellow was either confused/imagining things, or worse. :2c:
Quote from: ChiniChani on November 08, 2017, 07:37:08 PM
Like I said, he wrote it in such a way that it's cleverly extremely hard to debunk. Carmelo was no idiot, but there has to be something he missed or any mistakes he made that's very hard to spot and cleverly covered up.
Key question, for me- if hell is there why does Paul say the following;
1 Tim 1;20 " Among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, who I have delivered over to Satan so they can be taught not to blaspheme."
Jesus says; " MANY will come in my name and prophesy in my name and cast out demons in my name- but I NEVER knew them."
The doctrine of hell makes God to be hateful; makes Him declare "love me or else."
Even in our limited understanding of love we do not threaten others to love us, so why would God Who is greater than us?- because that is what the doctrine of hell implies.
Ultimately, however amazing, compelling and persuasive these hell testimonies are, they must be placed on one side of the scales, with the testimony of the scriptures at the other end. They will all be weighed and found wanting through that process.
:girlheart: brothers and sister, you nailed it!!
:iagree: :iagree: God is Good!
{today I realized this, I knew from the word logos, is logic, but dah, I didn't realize - "Logos" - God's Word and Logic is one. The Logos is Logic. And logic is the word. (I.e. it can’t be ridiculously illogical.
When reading about this in my head was the vision of a huge red adversary with pitchfork turning over tortured bodies in the flames. Tending the fire I guess.. A daydream of Satan?
“Resist the adversary and he will flee” ..don’t forget the “large covering shield of faith” Trust! Our shield from the arrows and darts of the adversar(s) is our trust of Him. The darts and arrows fall broken to the ground. They cannot penetrate through our convinced trust ..of Him! Our Heavenly Father, who “is Love”.
Hell is a sick fantasy of a horror story writer. A blasphemy.
The thing that comes closest to Christians in hell is the parable of the sheep and goats.
...thosetakenintocaptivity ofthe adversary...develope a Stockholm like syndrome...for the godof this world..that sitsintheirtemple
andsay...'iamgod" an imposter spirit declaringI AM the christ! the scriptures must befulfilled...thosemeant forcaptivity...thesword....
thewomenraped[forcedinto 'carnalknowledge"......honouring a godof force/compulson.
LOVE ME WITH AFFECTION...ye that love. Our TRUE FATHER,creator,GOD. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2017, 03:48:13 PM
Hell is a sick fantasy of a horror story writer. A blasphemy.
Amen.. "blasphemy" against Him and His pure and stellar/perfect character (and also ability) :iagree: :iagree: blasphemes Him every day.. and keeps many from being able to believe/come to the faith (can we really blame tham?!)
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2017, 03:48:13 PM
The thing that comes closest to Christians in hell is the parable of the sheep and goats.
...and the
tares gathered
to be burned, which both, I believe, occur "at His return"... like Rev chapter 14, two harvests, one being the grapes of wrath,outside the city.. what city? Jerusalem, aka, at the final battle, Armageddon.. the gathering of the tares being the gathering to Armageddon, Rev 16:14,
15,16 - "At His return" pretty much concurrent (at the last trump(et) "He comes with His angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8 (with Truth, aka, the results of man's own doings/fruit (apparent) which is judgment. (Including some believer's works burnt up.)
fire - rev 6:4
given; rev 6:12-17
its first and last/birth and maturity blended in the description - then, 7:1
where we (still) are at now and; rev 13:13
pinpointing an office :2c:
ChiniChani: Please think about this:
Believing in Jesus equals eternal life.
If you read the sheep and goat judgement parable you will see that the goats are also Christians.
They go to hell, the fire.
How can that be? A contradiction?
Don't think so...
Amen!
And ChiniChani, keep reading His Word.. the New Testament of His promise/He gave His word.. and psalms! Read it, eat it, digest it.. rebuke any voice, inkling, which sounds like condemnation, etc.. The onLy ones Jesus spoke roughly to were those who were "standing in the door" not going in, and by their teaching and authority was not allowing anyone else to go in either.. I've been reading for almost 40 years which I think many here have.. And it's with the faithful reading that the clouds disperse, and things become clear.. the washing of the word.. renewed in our mind.. "God has made life simple but man has many inventions" Eccles?
"Being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." And, "..that power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead.." ..and parted the Red Sea.. etc.. etc.. [Philippians 1:6; Ephesians 1:19,20]
Jesus calmed the storm.. the wind and waves.. :Peace2: God bless!
Amen to you all !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I cannot help but think of years ago , when I was so young into searching for answers to my million questions about God and how was He going to save everyone as carnal as my mind was back than ,
I held on to that hope knowing what ever God does it is a perfect work, deserving of all the glory and praise one could muster up in their soul to be thankful to Him for such mercy !
I remember two very special people that always made me think outside the box [I put God in ] :eek:
Yvonne and Loxoco , they would press me hard at times by letting me know how foolish my thinking was , but in a kind way , by sharing their thoughts as well as some bible tools , that turned out to be something I used for decades now .
Loxoco said, Heaven is a state of being , not a place , where peace and joy and Love is . Just as hell is not a place, but state of being , where guilt , torment and fear reside .
I never saw that than , I was way to literal and carnal to understand the impact of that powerful statement .
But the truth is we can be given over to our lusts & imaginations that are wild as any carnal nature can get and it can be very destructive to ourselves and others .
Found it in the scriptures as a witness and that was confirmation to me .. God allows this lesson to learn that our own stubbornness and rebellion against Him though suffering by so many examples in the Word .
If you are suffering for doing good even , Like Jesus proved this truth , some resisted and hated Him for it . Many , many miracles were not accomplished because of their unbelief :sigh:
But He was willing !!!!! Seems the Spirit of Life & Truth is always willing in love and sincerity from an honest heart that comes clean and purified from the water baptism, washing of the Word and being dipped into it many times till the Lord comes and than permanent from the Holy Sprint and fire baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ gives us to stay in ..
And this is why I believe as I do now and none can take this from my heart , it is settled as only God can do it Himself .
When God will be all in all , I was thinking .. How can this be Lord ?
Well it was something Loxoco said many many years ago to me that made perfect sense ,
It was any carnal , beast like nature fears a fire , in the day even, but especially by night when it is as the only thing they see , except maybe the shadows from around that Light emitting from the fire .
He went on to describe that out west where he lived , when the wolves and coyotes were seeking livestock to prey upon
the men always built a fire to keep those predators at bay , because they feared the fire and could not understand it .
I took this to heart and kept it but never figured out what it meant or the full impact of it , till recently .
This dawned on me , Like a WOW! moment ... GOD IS a consuming fire , nothing evil can dwell in His presence ever !!
Only that of His own substance and nature can !!
This was an epiphany to me , the Love and the Light and the fire of His consuming presence is the total end result !
I thought of the burning bush that was not consumed when God was showing Moses a bit of Himself and in Daniel the 3 children in the fire and one was like the son of man in their presence and they were not consumed by the fire ! but were as
within the fire and presence of God and His likeness .
I thought of the descriptive's of Jesus Presence as eyes that were flames of Fire and a body of Beryl that shines forth His arms and feet shone like polished bronze, and his voice roared like a vast multitude of people. ... His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like Flames , torches ... His voice thundered forth like the sound of a large crowd. in Daniel 10 and feet that are a burnished brass glowing in a furnace in Rev 1 , in His transfiguration on that mountain in Matthew 17:2 states that Jesus "was transfigured before them; his face shining as the sun, and his garments became white as the light." At that point the prophets Elijah and Moses appear and Jesus begins to talk to them.
I than realized it was the fire of Gods love and jealousy that would keep all evil away forever more . Nothing can exist without being dissolved except the very nature of Himself and likeness that we are made by Him to be as though the Lord Jesus Christ , Holy Spirit and fire baptism had a whole new meaning from this point on and in His death of the cross in Luke 12;49 Had come to set this world on fire ...
It really was a revelation of sorts and has kept me going with even more hope than ever and not to fear the fire any longer that so many many , many still fear the most , It is God that they fear and just do not know this yet !! :HeartThrob:
Amen Rose!! "a perfect work"... the verses you posted and thoughts ...very much ministered to my mind..
:ty: awesome! ...Truth is awesome.. His word/truth is glorious!
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
Great post Rose!
For me, what this man experienced, is a revelation, not a revelation of the nature of Christ, but a revelation of the nature of men
Which relates to all three of the temptations of Christ in the wilderness
This revelation has become the pinnacle of the temple (a revelation of the flesh) and will he jump?
This revelation has become a kingdom of the world (kingdom of the flesh) and will he bow down to his own mind and rule in it?
This revelation has become a rock (doctrine of the flesh) and will he turn it into his bread of life?
Has the door to the kingdom of God (His wedding feast) been shut to this man?
Will he tear down his barns and build a greater one?
I pray that God will grant him repentance or he will die in the nature he has been shown
to debunk his experience is for him to hear that he has been shown the nature of men, not the nature of God, the problem is:
Will he listen?
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 10, 2017, 10:12:10 PM
Great post Rose!
Gods blessings to you and yours sister ,,,,, Thankful He is teachings us all about Him and His pure heart towards us all [mankind] :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jugghead on November 11, 2017, 09:32:08 PM
For me, what this man experienced, is a revelation, not a revelation of the nature of Christ, but a revelation of the nature of men
Which relates to all three of the temptations of Christ in the wilderness
This revelation has become the pinnacle of the temple (a revelation of the flesh) and will he jump?
This revelation has become a kingdom of the world (kingdom of the flesh) and will he bow down to his own mind and rule in it?
This revelation has become a rock (doctrine of the flesh) and will he turn it into his bread of life?
Has the door to the kingdom of God (His wedding feast) been shut to this man?
Will he tear down his barns and build a greater one?
I pray that God will grant him repentance or he will die in the nature he has been shown
to debunk his experience is for him to hear that he has been shown the nature of men, not the nature of God, the problem is:
Will he listen?
Amen Brother Jugghead ! ...
Gods desire is none should perish , but repent , Gods will be done on earth as it is in Heaven , I do believe it is the case ,as you judge , so shall YOU be judged ...
What ever is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever is loosed on earth will be loosed in Heaven !!
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."
Both of these agree with the two laws and natures at work in mankind , Being the old covenant of sin that binds us to death and the new covenant of Life in Christ is Free , the Truth sets you free ...
The key is to forgive everyone of everything , and be forgiven of the Lord . :dsunny:
Just wanted to add that I was hesitant to post to this thread, but as I reread it several times, and then several times more, each played a part in my motive to post, especially you rose in what you wrote and MG in what you wrote in another thread.
I thank God for you all that He has brought you into my walk with Him, for to expand our understanding of what He is doing with mankind as a whole, expands His Grace in us towards others.
With the opening post by CC- what did this guy miss? - God's understanding of what he was shown .... that being the nature of men
In another thread MG spoke of "the judge of the living and the dead", this is what God is all about in us to free us from the bondage of sin, the bondage of missing the mark
We rule with Christ as a judge of "THE LIVING SPIRIT" and "the dead flesh", not a judge of the person themselves, but a judge of the nature that is most prominent by the words they speak ..... for it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.
Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2017, 10:24:59 PM
the old covenant of sin that binds us to death
Wow! I never thought of it in exactly that way! But it's waay true..!
(Our Father is very orderly..?)Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2017, 10:24:59 PM
and the new covenant of Life in Christ is Free , the Truth sets you free ...
:thumbsup: :banana: :cloud9: amen!
Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2017, 10:24:59 PM
The key is to forgive everyone of everything , and be forgiven of the Lord . :dsunny:
:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: Amen sister!
Quote from: jugghead on November 12, 2017, 03:56:53 AM
to expand our understanding of what He is doing with mankind as a whole, expands His Grace in us towards others.
Quote from: jugghead on November 12, 2017, 03:56:53 AM
to free us from the bondage of sin, the bondage of missing the mark
Amen! for a bondage it surely is! ...to be locked into... destruction... for missing the mark is the way of death.. ..."those things which lead to death"..
Quote from: jugghead on November 12, 2017, 03:56:53 AM
We rule with Christ as a judge of "THE LIVING SPIRIT" and "the dead flesh"
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...able to discern (understand) good from evil..
Quote from: jugghead on November 12, 2017, 03:56:53 AM
With the opening post by CC- what did this guy miss? - God's understanding of what he was shown .... that being the nature of men
Amen! ...won't it be
so awesome when no one any longer misreads God! :cloud9:
I am Thankful to God for everything and this place and my brothers and sisters in Christ ,
For the new member Chini Chani and her post .
So glad you posted bro Jugg !
Everyone sharing , We are so very blessed of God
QuoteAmen! ...won't it be so awesome when no one any longer misreads God!
Amen Sister Marie !
Amazing grace though our loving Lord Jesus Christ upon us all ....
Thanks guys. :) Sorry I rarely post here, and keep really only posting distressed topics (one day I'll hopefully make a more cheerful one, or something more casual), it's a severe anxiety phase I'm going through that requires medication and therapy (the latter we can't afford yet unfortunately). Hopefully it'll pass like the others did, and I can finally relax on Universalism and not worry about those kinds of stories. I really appreciate the kind words! Maybe it's me still being a relatively new Universalist and I need to put everything in order, I was Fundamentalist for the majority of my life, just became a Universalist about a year or so ago, maybe even less. I know a guy who went through something very similar, and he's doing perfectly fine now after getting his mind in order, hopefully I'll follow soon. Anyway...
@WhiteWings, maybe I'm just tired or I'm reading it wrong, but I don't know what you mean or what you're getting at. I'm familiar with the parable but at first glance, that seems to promote Carmelo's saying. Please correct me if I misinterpreted what you said. I mean, personally I believe some Christians go to hell for a temporary amount of time if they live a very poor lifestyle and not in the image of Christ like they claim, due to more genuine Near-Death Experiences and extensive research on said phenomena. Do you believe the same thing or have I got it completely wrong with your post?
God bless you all!
-CC
Also, if you notice, I think Carmelo plagiarizes Mary Baxter quite a lot, and Mary herself plagiarized the Bible and Dante's Inferno (and other stuff that proves her experience false that was pointed out by a man I follow named Kevin Williams of his website for near-death experiences). I think there may also be some hidden creepy pasta references in his story if one looks close enough I imagine. (Creepy pastas, for those who don't know, are fictional horror stories made up by an internet community and they've become somewhat of a "meme" I think. There's some good stories in there though, worth a read for some entertainment. Anyway...)
I think the Jesus in Carmelo's tale acts more like Hitler than the Jesus from the Bible. Not a hint of compassion in him in Carmelo's, at least Mary's "Jesus" held some small level of compassion, Carmelo's had none at all. Jesus in his story sounds like a sociopath more than anything, and part of me wonders if his "Jesus" was actually a representation of Carmelo himself? If you read the "testimony" a certain way, it represents Carmelo's personality and feelings more than reality. He has "Jesus" say he's not the God of so and so in it, nor is the real Jesus the God of Carmelo's testimony. Not to mention he's one of the only two I've heard that include children in hell, whilst most of the others don't at all. If you want my opinion, I think Carmelo's sick, narcissistic, at least. He really doesn't care, not even about children, at least that's the impression I'm getting. I'll admit some of my anger from what he's doing is talking there, along with my past as being one of his victims for a brief amount of time, but I believe it to be truth that Carmelo genuinely does have issues.
Sorry I keep rambling about this, I've kind of got this "thing" where I want to debunk and expose all of the people like Carmelo who made the false legalistic/fundamentalist hellish testimonies. Not fully as revenge (maybe a little but I know that's not a good thing to do) but to help other people (and myself as well a bit to get over my anxiety so I can finally focus on what's most important). And to bring justice to the people who did harm. I guess kind of like a physical abuse victim who wants to stop other abusers. I know I'm trying to justify myself for all these ramblings and pleads for critiques against these people, and I really do apologize if this is causing any grief to anyone. I'm just really desperate, and I want to express my feelings and beliefs. I really feel like this shouldn't go on or be left unnoticed.
Hello CC, I hope you consider my words ... when something is brought to the forefront of our minds, it is part of the process of refining we go through, just as dross is brought to the top of the pot to be removed.
We tend to seek out that which we are experiencing, so is your interest in NDE (in the physical) what you are experiencing in the spiritual, that being the dying to self which again is the refining process.
Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Principalities - that which the mind can create
Powers - that which gives life to what the mind creates
rulers of the darkness - the principalities created by the mind that lacks understanding
all summed up in the one statement of spiritual wickedness in high places (spiritual wickedness in the minds of men)
you see these things in others because God is refining you from them in yourself and until it is removed it cant be seen because the flesh cannot look inward only outward, you see these things because they are being removed from you
for me our focus should be on God's refining process in us, not how we can refine another
my words here are just seeds planted, God causes the growth and it isn't until they grow and mature that it is revealed whether they are a tare or wheat .... and in the language of refining, I can add things to the mix in the pot, but God does the refining and it will be revealed whether it is dross or that which is being purified
Blessings
ECT NDEs remind me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYO0joolR0
Quote from: ChiniChani on November 25, 2017, 10:06:05 PM
...but I believe it to be truth that Carmelo genuinely does have issues.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
As did, I believe, Dante.. even if it's true as I've heard that the story ends well..? :dontknow: I try to avoid reading such stuff.. We are what we eat! As they say..
Your wanting to turn over the stone and reveal the truth.. and the underbelly, seems to me to be a good motive. But we can't do it. We can only "enter His rest" about all things - there sure are a lot of things that should not be going on.. and untruths believed, that ought not to be believed..
:gimmefive:
:cloud9: Thank God! We know He wins every battle!! ...the things of this world :faint:
Unfortunately the thing that pushed me to read it was my anxiety back when I was a hell-believing fundamentalist, and his "testimony" is the only one I read through-and-through due to my anxiety, which of course, made my anxiety worse. I believed in eternal hell back then so naturally it did scare the crap out of me. Now that I don't believe hell is eternal it's easier to endure, but there's still always that nagging feeling. Whether it's a demon or my anxiety or the devil, idk. But it seems the harder I try to get over Carmelo, the worse and harder it gets to find peace. That's a reason I'm desperate to have someone critique Carmelo. Literally no one has or wants to and it's driving me crazy.
Quote from: ChiniChani on November 27, 2017, 02:04:36 AM
Whether it's a demon or my anxiety or the devil, idk. But it seems the harder I try to get over Carmelo, the worse and harder it gets to find peace.
That is how I used to think when first starting to truly seek God. My brother was teaching about the casting demons stuff. Knew the law and all the requirements of confession to release demonic strongholds.
ALL of that requires personal effort.
TOTALLY overlooks the work of Christ as being the work that has paid 100% for our sins- and the FACT that He did that before we were even born.
The scripture, for me, which makes Christ work and God's love irrefutable;
Romans 8;38,39 which highlight the literality of NOTHING being able to keep us from the love of God, in Christ-
- specifically, neither demons, nor life, nor death, nor ANY powers.
His love is 100% and He will not fail, has not failed in any regard.
Brenes does not need to be worried about, because that is ALL his supposed personal effort even when he quotes scriptures.
When Christ was in the wilderness satan quoted scriptures.
2 Cor 11;14,15 " For Satan himself disguise himself as an angel of light.
So it is no great surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
There end will be according to their works."
Plus Christ actually specifies that NO SIGNS WILL BE GIVEN. [Matt 12;39}
He actually also says in Matt 7;21 that "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, even if they
perform miracles or cast out demons.'
which all seems to blow out of the water the concept of people who are teaching about demons and hell know what they are talking about.
God's love, again talked about by Paul in Ephesians 3;18-21 highlights that His love goes beyond our ability to fathom, and he can and will, do MORE THAN WE CAN ASK OR IMAGINE; for me, that is peace beyond the negativity which tries to distract us from Christ and God and their indescribable love and forgiveness, and their true cleansing program which brings us to a glorious future.
He knows you and loves you and His love NEVER fails.
Quote from: ChiniChani on November 25, 2017, 10:06:05 PM
I think the Jesus in Carmelo's tale acts more like Hitler than the Jesus from the Bible. Not a hint of compassion in him in Carmelo's, at least Mary's "Jesus" held some small level of compassion, Carmelo's had none at all. Jesus in his story sounds like a sociopath more than anything, and part of me wonders if his "Jesus" was actually a representation of Carmelo himself? If you read the "testimony" a certain way, it represents Carmelo's personality and feelings more than reality. He has "Jesus" say he's not the God of so and so in it, nor is the real Jesus the God of Carmelo's testimony. Not to mention he's one of the only two I've heard that include children in hell, whilst most of the others don't at all. If you want my opinion, I think Carmelo's sick, narcissistic, at least. He really doesn't care, not even about children, at least that's the impression I'm getting. I'll admit some of my anger from what he's doing is talking there, along with my past as being one of his victims for a brief amount of time, but I believe it to be truth that Carmelo genuinely does have issues.
I think that you should have satisfied yourself with your own observations here - this should be enough on your part to, in time, shake off the bonds and shackles of these earthly thoughts of man.
You may feel that you will get relief from this obsession of yours concerning this book, if someone should use their time to criticise this book - but I think that you will only move from a terrible dogma to one which is only a little less binding because you are fighting the material mind of man with the same.
May I suggest quite strongly that The Sermon on the Mount is read by you ceaselessly, yet not speedily - and that you wait in silence as you read and re-read. Please also read His parables - but allow the meaning of the words of the Sermon on the Mount to unfold as you read and re-read them.
You are young and a year may sound like a long time to you at present, but have patience. If you are to do this for a while, that is, read Matthew 5 to 7 and again read it over, then the Christ in You will solve this problem for you. Have faith and allow the Christ Life already within you to be your perception.
Listen for the underlying meaning of it all. Listen to Christ the Teacher; hear Him from your heart and not your mind; see Him speaking volumes of Truth and guidance to simple folk, uneducated people - people belonging to a culture and religion into which He chose to be born in order to establish Truth.
This is how I see it. He is their Saviour, remember the great body of teaching that Christ Himself taught then, and not the dogmas that the minds of men have taught since then until now - and will continue to teach.
When the person that you have been conditioned to become surrenders to the Christ within you, then you shall see with ease what are the teachings of men with their dogmas made from patching together sentences in the Bible; then you will see the shallowness behind the literalising of numbers, days, words; then you will see the triviality behind arguments of the mind over this and that instead of listening to the wisdom which God has put in the heart.
When the God in Christ is centred in your consciousness, in your awareness, then the earthly thoughts of men and their dogmas are thrown, as it were, on the wall of vision, always moving, always fading, fading because they have no life in them - no life in them expect the life that you give to them yourself. Their thoughts are but clouds passing in the sky and you watch from the permanent unchanging You, given to you out of God Himself, of Himself, who is timeless. Yes, He has given His children part of Himself - and it is His intention that all shall come to be His true children with full experience and understanding.
It is only man who thinks that God is not in his brothers and sisters. God has put Himself in each of His children. Apparent separation is but the turning away from His Love, from Himself, from Divine Law, from the Universal Law out of which came His Sermon and all His teachings.
Then when you pass out of this short life and you see what His teaching has achieved in your own soul, your heart will melt with adoration at His humility and wisdom, it will be overcome with a gratitude so deep that you will look right and left to see what you can do for Him , and you will find that His Life and teaching has brought you gifts and powers to carry out your heart's desire in Service to Him.
Remember that you are building up treasure in Heaven even now. What is done out of love and which has God in it creates beauty for a time to come, for God is in you, the Great Creator has bestowed in miniature part of Himself in you, and your treasure is stored and preserved by Him so that you will have the ability to serve Him. Now is the time to be up and doing.
Beware of material thinking. All are seen as of the same sacred Fraternity where only the humble have power. Those whose idea of Heaven is, for instance, a fire to warm themselves by as they kick out their feet in self-satisfied pleasure, those will find a hearth in their new home but with no earthly flame in it because a loving warmth is always in the environment which they think is Heaven itself: "Ah see all this, this is Heaven indeed!" But it is not, they have only passed out of the Earth life and into that just removed from the Earth and all its admixture of material thought, while others pray for them to lay aside what they think they deserve and to join the great Christ army.
Many call themselves His representatives and yet they have twisted Truth and turned it on its head. Their material thoughts also build up treasure but their treasure is of the material and it only satisfies them for a while until they awaken to their duty and seek Him once more for guidance - and awaken they must because of the God within.
The Truth is to be found in the teachings of the Saviour Christ - and the Cross signifies the unity between God and man. Christ Jesus knew God's intention for humanity from the very beginning. In Jesus, both the Son of Man and the Son of God, is to be found man's highest realisation of God.
Allow the fuller deeper meaning coming from the words of Christ so faithfully chronicled for future humanity, to arise in your heart and awareness, so that you are always with Him because He is always with you. Do not doubt this, He is the Saviour, Christ is never apart from His child for He lives within. The child's love for the Saviour may die at times but the love that the Saviour has for His child has no ending and can never fade. He is always with you, in you.
Amen !!!
Yes , Good to see you again lastpost !
God's Holy Spirit is making all things new to love and be loved without hypocrisy ,Through the Lord Jesus Christ ,the WORD of Truth :dsunny: listen to His Voice and live ..
Hebrews 1 1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets.
2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,
whom He appointed heir of all things,
and through whom He made the universe.
3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature,
upholding all things by His powerful word.
After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high....
Amen, It's the Word which is needed.. It's our bread.. we always need to be feeding upon it.. feasting.. in it is "treasures old and new!"
And it is "the" means of "washing the mind". As others said.. give it time, be faithful and it WILL bear fruit. "The Word of God is stronger" - than anything.
And maybe think nature? Out your window or in your yard.. Nature (His creation) is very soothing and healing.
?? Read a gospel, some each day, and also read Acts.. then another gospel and still Acts.. etc.. After then you've read the four gospels start with the letters..? Psalms? :cloud9: I read 1-20 during January, the 20's during february, 30's during March.. etc.. and 120-150 through december.
And continue in learning to tell Him all these things.. You can place it all right in His hands..
:Peace2: :Pray:
1. Dante established the doctrine (man-made) of "abandon all hope, ye who enter here." So how did this fellow enter Hell and come back?
2. Carmelo agrees with Baxter, a known fraud. Garbage in, garbage out.
3. Hell is a perfectly good word for the grave. The rest is from paganism - take a look at any good reference book on Norse mythology, where you will meet the goddess Hel, and her afterlife realm, Helheim (House of Hel), where you were believed to go if you did not rate Valhalla. BTW, "Hel" appears twice in the 1611 KJV - probably a misprint, but one must wonder... Also, do an image search on the Tibetan Buddhist Hell - it is very enlightening, and what started me to question where our ideas of Hell came from.
4. So Carmelo cannot be refuted? Well, he can't be verified either, except by Baxter, a known fraud. Depend, not on non-verifiable, non-falsifable accounts, but on the perfect record of God's Word, the Bible. Get an honest translation. Hint: one not using the word "Hell." This site has a long list of non-Hell translations.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 29, 2017, 07:08:34 PM
This site has a long list of non-Hell translations.
And on Gary's newest video he mentions 3 or 4 which sound very good.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRCCn0Icogo&t=0s
P.S. - Amen Laz! :thumbsup:
Well I read the replies, and I think I'm coming to agree. I'm sorry I keep pushing stuff like this, my soul can't seem to find peace for some reason. I'm trying though.
Actually what I think the best thing about Carmelo would be is to pray for him, pray that he'll come to see what God really is, and not the god of his "vision". Just pray that he'll come into the light, I think it's all that can really be done.
Thank you all for the posts! I'm starting to learn to come to peace with possibilities so I can start living my life and loving others again. I think once my soul finds peace in everything, things will get much easier. I actually found myself unable to do loving actions for others nearly as much because of the crippling fear, which should be enough to convince me that I do not need to even be glancing at those hellish "testimonies". They contradict themselves, they say you have to be perfectly loving in order to avoid hell, yet they use fear and "perfect love casts out fear". Love and fear cannot dwell in the same house. You either have one, or the other. One cannot do both at the same time, I learned that from experience. And hopefully one day my anxiety disorder will finally agree with me and leave me alone. lol
The same logic can be applied to Jesus saying "You can't serve God and mammon at the same time." which is a thing of flesh. You can't serve spirit and flesh at the same time. The spirit is love, the flesh is fear. Those false testimonies attempt to use both at the same time, but mostly fear and very little love. If you really stop and think about it, those testimonies are basically Jesus telling us to rely more on our fleshy fear to obtain heaven. Fear leads to make us want to survive, thus we act out on it, and follow them for comfort. Which leads to, you guessed it, control. Love doesn't do any of those things. Fear leads to flesh, love leads to spirit, and vice versa for both. That's the logic I try to use. I've never had any kind of noticeable spiritual experience except for the occasional dream of Jesus and I don't take them literally, so I can't say anything from my own experience. I'm just trying to use logic of the higher more spiritual nature of humans and evaluating what the lower baser human nature does. lol Just my :2c:
I rely more on genuine near-death experiences that teach unconditional love and never to fear. The legalists contradict themselves... WAY too many times.
(I absolutely LOVE being able to think clearly without my anxiety getting in the way! xD Hopefully soon I can feel this all the time.)
Very nice post Bristol!
Patinak, how did you know my name? lol (Unless I forgot or missed something). Have we met? (Forgive me if I just forgot something, I've got the memory of a goldfish)
'Twas in your opening post!
Patinak (Pat)
"Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Lots of love,
-Bristol"
:)
Oh, oops... :mblush:
hi all.. :hiya:
I read this today and thought this would be a good place to post it.. It runs along the lines of other discussions too.. Or anyway, it's the way I think, and I think some others think that way too - this is an article comparing things of the crucifixion with Passover,
https://www.hoshanarabbah.org/pdfs/lamb.pdf
Quote
12. The lamb was roasted by fire (Exod. 12:8-9)
Fire is a metaphor for judgment. Yeshua suffered the fire of his Heavenly Father's wrath and judgment for man's sins (Matt. 27:46; 2 Cor. 5:21).
:Peace2:
Quote from: ChiniChani on December 05, 2017, 09:49:07 AM
I've never had any kind of noticeable spiritual experience except for the occasional dream of Jesus and I don't take them literally, so I can't say anything from my own experience.
I.M.O you are being protected. The inner peace is indescribable- that is the truth.
:2c: imo I see his expierence as a spiritual revealing of the true state of many professing believers/churches. Hell being the grave
....those whohave a name they are alive but are dead to God. one common theme throughout was their cries for mercy....amercy
denied,perhaps because they failed to show mercy.It would appear Godhas bound up all of them into some kind/type of disobedience...
and we knowHe didthat in order to show mercy unto all.so no flesh would boast.which calls to mind God's rebuke of him for his
'VAINGLORY".....worthless glory. ...on earth of the flesh[Ididthusandthus] versus the glory that isto be revealed..when we are just like Him.
@Sheila
Which I assume is temporary until they learn their lessons. I've come to accept the possibility that the experience may be real, but is heavily misinterpreted and thought to be a vision supporting legalism, but I believe it could just be an NDE that could teach him a lesson in life, like most NDEs do. It all has to do with his mind-state and beliefs, which heavily influences NDEs to me (though it did lead me to become a Universalist). To teach him to be more godly and loving. I believe hell exists, but that it's temporary purification and that they're not physical places, but states of the mind. My mom and I actually had this discussion yesterday. lol
yes,I see it [the expierence]as more of a representation of the spiritual state he andother's are in presently.I do not believeitisliteral.
there are 'terrors of thenight" in Song of songs. the adversary can give terrorizingdreams...ifGod allows them too. save some through
fear and some through mercy.. the expierence is a good representative of being handed over to satan for the destructionof the flesh
in order that the spirit be savedon the Day of theLord..... hell/grave/destructionof flesh/death etc.
Yeah. Is there any way I could at least get the contents out of my head though? When I remember them, my anxiety is triggered again, I'd just rather not think about the contents of his testimony, whether it was real or fake.
vain imaginations.........this is why I speakto them in parables..though seeing[mercy] they do not see;though hearing they do
notunderstand.......Otherwise..they might see with their eyesand hear with their ears..andturn..andI heal them...
Matt 13;16 But Blessed are your eyes becausethey see...verse 19 when anyonehears the message ofthe kingdom[mercy/grace forall]
butdoes not understand it...the evil onecomes andsnatches away what was sown in his heart[mercy/grace all tobear the incorruptible
image of Christ]
Ezekiel 23;14..our body beingthe temple..unclean imagesetc on the wallof our mind...is a 'seige work' spiritual warfareand
defilement of the temple[our temple body with sin in it bearing the corruptible image.]
the request made unto God for a 'clean' conscience....is the glorious freedom to be revealed...andnosuch thoughts will even
come to our mind.we shall be forever free of all the machinations of the evil one. Jesus said...'the princeof this world comes..andhe has
nothing in me." Looking soforward tothe Liberty,salvationandglory that awaits. :HeartThrob:
we can bring every thought untosubjectionof Christ through correctingthe thought,rebuking it in our mind. Theauthority to pick up
serpents andtrample serpents andscorpions are ours...satan has basically hadhis fangs removed[drink poison andnotbe harmed] and
scorpions their stings...O;Death Ishall be thy plagues! By Father andJesus.If we have faith to believe it.
like a contentious woman..a steady drip drip of these things canwear out the saints...the only way toendureis tokeep the hope of the
Gloryto be revealed. Faith,Hope and Love remains andendures.
the most the wicked onecando..is trample our outercourt[flesh body]
Quote from: ChiniChani on December 06, 2017, 04:56:39 PM
Yeah. Is there any way I could at least get the contents out of my head though? When I remember them, my anxiety is triggered again, I'd just rather not think about the contents of his testimony, whether it was real or fake.
So when the anxiety is triggered is this at the same level as before, or is this a little less each time?
Paul advises the Philippians to focus on whatever is pure,, true, noble, right, lovely admirable, or anything that is excellent or worthy of praise. That seems to be the power of positive thinking- recommend some key point that is significant for you so as to overcome the anxiety.
Eph 1;4 " Even as God chose us in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless before God."
Ross, it's about the same, sometimes even worse. Unfortunately, it's not very easy for me. :sigh:
ChiniChani- Please be encouraged that even though these thoughts can be in your presence at times, they cannot alter your position in anyway. This is why Paul encourages us to put on the armour of Christ as our protection.
The helmet of salvation is KNOWING that Christ's work is our salvation- no failure whatsoever.
The shield of faith is Christ's faith- he achieved His objective to rescue us from the darkness and bring us to the light.
The breastplate, or protection of our chest is the fact that Christ has placed us in correct position/standing with our Father-God.
The angel of light/Satan can be an accuser- point out all our failings and weaknesses. He knows the law inside and out. Has recorded things we have done wrong to point out to the Father our mistakes. That is Satan's job. He is the ruler of this present age- the prince.
However, Christ has paid for our sins 100%.
This age is temporary- the coming age, where Christ rules, is permanent- and we are included to reign with Him in our change of bodies to the spiritual form. We are going to be with Christ higher than angels as sons/daughter of the One true living Father/God.
Not easy for me, either, if I try to do this off my own strength and wisdom- hence Jesus tells us to take up the cross daily, which, I.M.O is our recognition that no effort from us is sufficient, but His is all inclusive.
HE LOVES US SO MUCH and HIS LOVE NEVER FAILS. :HeartThrob:
Amen bro Ross !!
Hang in there ChiniChani so many are at their wits end right now Psalms 107 His Loving Kindness Endures Forever
...26They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths;
Their soul melted away in their misery.
27They reeled and staggered like a drunken man, And were at their wits' end.
28Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, And He brought them out of their distresses....
I have been there so many times over so many things , it is than when God is there His presence is our comfort ...
endure to the end .. we wait on the Lord and live because of Him in us all ..
Quote from: rosered on December 07, 2017, 02:02:50 PM
Amen bro Ross !!
Hang in there ChiniChani so many are at their wits end right now Psalms 107 His Loving Kindness Endures Forever
…26They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths;
Their soul melted away in their misery.
27They reeled and staggered like a drunken man, And were at their wits' end.
28Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, And He brought them out of their distresses.…
I have been there so many times over so many things , it is than when God is there His presence is our comfort ...
endure to the end .. we wait on the Lord and live because of Him in us all ..
Amen! That is how we learn the serious stuff.