Context, context, context

[gregoryfl]

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

[Lazarus Short]

Nope, our limited attention spans are no excuse...look, a squirrel!  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

Psalms 119:160

(ASV)  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

(CLV) The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

(RV)  The sum of thy word is truth; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

(YLT)  The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!

There is your context :dsunny:

[Seth]

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

Matthew 2
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hosea 11
1"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more they were called, the more they went away from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

I think that is an example of what you are talking about.

[micah7:9]

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

Yes

[WhiteWings]

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

I would say rule one of taking a verse out of context is that it never contradicts the context it was taken from.

Rule two is that there is support for that new interpretation. An alternative non contradicting interpretation can be totally wrong. So that out of context interpretation should have some sort of witness.

I think the result of out of context interpretations can be split into these groups.
1] Correct. Lots of support will be found.
2] Wrong but harmless. Like concluding Jesus had size 19 feet.
3] Wrong and harmful. I think this type will always have anti-witnesses.

[Tom]

So I guess the "size 19 feet" helped him walk on the water, right?

[rosered]

Hi Ronen

  I love what the  guys shared ...

  I believe we are to  share  as led by the Spirit , and many times we are to compare scripture with scripture
  for   the same witness
  many times they expound on   what is written 

  I just kept thinking  of the Verses in Isaiah   28   line upon line   precept upon precept  , here a little and there a little , till the rider falls backwards lol  :footmouth:

and   being  leary  of the snares of Babylon 

[joeteekay]

Hi all,

No scripture is of its OWN interpretation or explanation.

2 Pet 1:20 (CLV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation. (Strong's G1955)

2Pe_1:20  (KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

But I think your question Ronen has more to it than 2 Pet. 1:20 and the Verses in Isaiah   28   line upon line   precept upon precept  , here a little and there a little 

What would be an example of what you posed?

[rosered]

Hi all,

No scripture is of its OWN interpretation or explanation.

2 Pet 1:20 (CLV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation. (Strong's G1955)

2Pe_1:20  (KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

But I think your question Ronen has more to it than 2 Pet. 1:20 and the Verses in Isaiah   28   line upon line   precept upon precept  , here a little and there a little 

What would be an example of what you posed?

Yes  , you are right   Joe!!

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

    I think He is saying  ,   is there scripture support  to  change   its  original   or   context  meaning  by other scriptures ?   


    I may not understand correctly 

and may just need  to wait for Him to clarify   :thumbsup:


    Peter  speaks of   this in the sense of the Scriptures do not change , its how we  perceive them , But I believe that the Spirit of Prophecy   fulfills the scriptures

and without having this   gift of God , you will do excatly what Peter is warning of about Pauls  writings    ,  Paul had the Spirit of prophecy in Him and expounded in details  on Jesus testimony /witness   

2 Peter 3 16...15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness

[eaglesway]

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

IMO, Nope, not unless there is a wider context that embraces both, or an issue of comparison for translation. Sometimes same words can exist in unrelated context.

[eaglesway]

http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html interesting article

[Seth]

I thin the Apostles did it because they were inspired to bring a new revelation, reveal a new doctrine. But they backed that up with signs and wonders to verify their authority. Now that the message is committed, I think our task is to understand the message and spread the word. I think everything we need is already given to us. So I don't think taking verses out of context is even necessary in the way it was done at the beginning of the church era.

[gregoryfl]

Seth gave a good example of what I am asking about. It is primarily concerning the ancient Jewish way of applying the text of scripture, which included ways which would be considered today to be taking a passage out of context.

The one Seth gave as well as the virgin birth one is pretty well known. Here are some others not as often discussed:

Yeshua
Then was fulfilled that spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: "A voice was heard in Ramah, lamenting and bitter wailing, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and would not be comforted, because they were not." (Mat 2:17-18)
So says Jehovah, A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing, bitter weeping: Rachel weeping for her sons; she refuses to be comforted for her sons for they are not. So says Jehovah, Hold back your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears. For there will be a reward for your work, says Jehovah, and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
(Jer 31:15-16)

This was to fulfill what was declared by the prophet when he said, "I will open my mouth to speak in parables. I will declare what has been hidden since the creation of the world."
(Mat 13:35)
I will open my mouth in parables: I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning. All which we have heard and known, and our fathers have declared to us. They were not hid from their children to a second generations; the fathers declaring the praises of the Lord, and his mighty acts, and his wonders which he wrought.
(Psa 78:2-4)

I do not speak concerning all of you; I know whom I chose out; but that the Scripture might be fulfilled, "The one eating the bread with Me lifted up his heel against Me."
(Joh 13:18)
I said, O Jehovah be gracious to me; heal my soul, for I have sinned against You. My enemies speak evil of me, saying, When will he die and his name perish? And when he comes to see me he speaks vanity; his heart gathers iniquity to itself; he goes outside and speaks. All those hating me whisper together against me; they plot evil against me, saying, A thing of ruin is poured out on him; and, He who lies down shall not rise again. Even a man desiring my welfare, I trusted in him, eating of my bread; this one has lifted up his heel against me.
(Psa 41:4-9)

Shimon Kipha
"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the voice of David about Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus..."For in the Book of Psalms it is written, 'Let his estate be desolate, and let no one live on it,' and 'Let someone else take over his office,'
(Act 1:16,20)
They gave me also gall for my food, and made me drink vinegar for my thirst. Let their table before them be for a snare, and for a recompense, and for a stumbling-block. Let their eyes be darkened that they should not see; and bow down their back continually. Pour out thy wrath upon them, and let the fury of thine anger take hold on them. Let their habitation be made desolate; and let there be no inhabitant in their tents...They devise evil against me instead of good, and hatred in place of my love. Appoint an evil person over him; may an accuser stand at his right side. When he is judged, may he be found guilty; may his prayer be regarded as sin...May this be the way the LORD repays my accuser, those who speak evil against me.
(Psa 69:21-25; 109:5-7,20)

Paul
according as it has been written, "There is not a righteous one, not even one!" "There is not one understanding; there is not one seeking God." All turned away, they became worthless together, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!" (Rom 3:10-12)
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they did hatefully in deeds; there is none doing good. Jehovah looked down from Heaven on the sons of mankind, to see if there were any discerning and seeking God: they have all turned aside; together they have become filthy; there is none doing good, not even one! Have all doers of iniquity not known, eating My people as they eat bread? They have not called on Jehovah. There they were afraid of terror, for God is in the righteous generation.
(Psa 14:1-5)

What I see here is ancient Jewish midrash, all given by God to teach something beyond the pshat (plain, literal, contextual meaning). Sadly, not understanding this valid and ancient means of applying scripture, those who do not believe in God or the scripture appeal to context, context, context, in their discrediting the writers.

Although there is certainly much misuse that happens when one ventures beyond the pshat, disconnecting from it as the foundation to which any other level of interpretation must be grounded, I believe that throwing out anything beyond the literal context in its entirety is not a valid solution, safe though it may appear to be.

I was wishing to discuss whether anyone else had come across these (and other passages) and what they have settled on in their working through understanding them, as to why and how they came to the conclusions they did.

Ronen

[joeteekay]

Thanks Ronen. You have provided material for further study. Thanks again.
Joe

[eaglesway]

I look at context as layers of spheres within spheres.

For instance, I consider the divine nature and eternal power of God to be the widest context- the overall context of scripture.

Romans 1:8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Context lends perspective and that can change, develop, evolve, clarify through progressive unveiling of deeper context, such as the clarification of the context of the divine nature and eternal power of God that was revealed in the person of the Messiah.

Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Now, nothing that is seen through the former context of the law and the prophets is actually in present context- all context is set within the revelation of Jesus Christ, and now, even the former contest(law, prophets, history) can only be properly understood within the context of who Jesus is in character and authority.

Which leads to love.

The context within which judgment may be understood is the context of love and the revelation of the divine nature.

That's why ET'rs do not have the whole gospel. There context is askew. Almost everything they read is "veiled", taken out of context.

2  Cor 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The veil is of course the actual personal revelation and union of a person with Jesus, but the effect of the law, as a veil over the heart is this,

If one sees Jesus through the law- they are veiled and the gospel Christ is taken out of context.

A person must see the law through Christ to understand what is was, and what it now is in the context of Jesus,  defined at the cross (the revelation of the divine nature) and also defined in the resurrection (the revelation of the eternal power of God).

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God......... 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

So, IMO, like wheels within wheels, the revelation of God always involves recognizing context within context, otherwise tangents of doctrine assume greater shadows over the revelation of Christ than they deserve, defiling rather than edifying.

and that's all I have to say about that :o)

[jabcat]

I know most believe that context is important in interpreting scripture. My question is whether there is any support from scripture to take a verse out of its context to apply it to something else that would not otherwise be supported by its original context?

I would say rule one of taking a verse out of context is that it never contradicts the context it was taken from.

Rule two is that there is support for that new interpretation. An alternative non contradicting interpretation can be totally wrong. So that out of context interpretation should have some sort of witness.

I think the result of out of context interpretations can be split into these groups.
1] Correct. Lots of support will be found.
2] Wrong but harmless. Like concluding Jesus had size 19 feet.
3] Wrong and harmful. I think this type will always have anti-witnesses.

:thumbsup:

I'm a huge believer in context.  I think it just makes sense.  Otherwise, I can take a myriad of scriptures on their own "merit" and make the Bible say about anything I want it to say to fit my own personal agenda. 

Extreme and silly example to make the point;  I need to go find Jesus a young colt so he can ride into Jerusalem today, because He said go get Him one.

[gregoryfl]

Similar to the wheels within wheels, there is a saying:

'There are 70 faces to the Torah: Turn it around and around, for everything is in it'
(Bamidbar Rabba 13:15)

These are intertwined within the four ancient categories of p'shat (simple, plain), remez (hint), d'rash (insight), and sod (secret).

Concerning the number 70, the letter ayin (represented by an eye) happens to have the numerical value of 70, which may speak of the 70 ways of looking completely at scripture, turning it around and around like a jewel with many different facets.

Also, I think it speaks to the universal message given to all nations of the world, which also happen to stem from the original 70 found in Bereshiyt.

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

I'm a huge believer in context.  I think it just makes sense.  Otherwise, I can take a myriad of scriptures on their own "merit" and make the Bible say about anything I want it to say to fit my own personal agenda. 

Extreme and silly example to make the point;  I need to go find Jesus a young colt so he can ride into Jerusalem today, because He said go get Him one.

What you are describing is exactly what takes place with those who divorce other levels of meaning from the foundational plain and simple, contextual meaning. I think the prime example of this is found in those who interpret Revelation, for example.

The apostles and Yeshua did not separate and disregard the plain meaning of any text they were quoting from to find a deeper fulfillment. That is what most who see them as misapplying scripture do not understand. They were not saying that the ONLY interpretation of those verses had to do with what they were applying them for. They had an original, historical context, and that was, and will always be, the p'shat meaning.
They spoke of things being 'fulfilled', not in the sense many understand that word today...as if it means to finally make something come to pass which did not before, or to bring an end to something. To the Hebrew mind, it would have meant a filling up of something with more. There was something there before historically, which was valid. Hoshea was indeed referring to the children is Israel as a nation when he wrote:

'When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and I called My Son out of Egypt.'
(Hos 11:1)

And yet also, connected with that p'shat meaning, is another facet having to do with Messiah, filling up that passage.

Ronen

[rosered]

Similar to the wheels within wheels, there is a saying:

'There are 70 faces to the Torah: Turn it around and around, for everything is in it'
(Bamidbar Rabba 13:15)

These are intertwined within the four ancient categories of p'shat (simple, plain), remez (hint), d'rash (insight), and sod (secret).

Concerning the number 70, the letter ayin (represented by an eye) happens to have the numerical value of 70, which may speak of the 70 ways of looking completely at scripture, turning it around and around like a jewel with many different facets.

Also, I think it speaks to the universal message given to all nations of the world, which also happen to stem from the original 70 found in Bereshiyt.

Ronen

awesome  !!      Thanks IO have  heard of this   slightly     before  especially the sod  , a  dear sister Red Letter brought this up before a  year or so ago

I was wondering is this

    a hint   4 faces of the Cherub[remez] :winkgrin:

these are intertwined within the four ancient categories of p'shat (simple, plain), remez (hint), d'rash (insight), and sod (secret)

.

[eaglesway]

Plain and literal does not exclude of course spiritual.

Paul speaks of this in 1 Cor 2


6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,

"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.+

So a spiritual persons pshat is is seen as midrash by a carnal man.

A spiritual persons exegesis is eisegesis to a carnal man. He doesnt have the context from which to tell the difference. He can't see far enough into the literal word to get the spiritual meaning.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The mind of Christ discovers the true context and the spiritual meaning of literal words.

The natural man runs in ever diminishing circles of knowledge.

"To whom would He teach knowledge,
And to whom would He interpret the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just taken from the breast?
10 "For He says,
'Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there.'"
11 Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary,"
And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.(true context)
13 So the word of the Lord to them will be,
"Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,"(false context)
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

[eaglesway]

Similar to the wheels within wheels, there is a saying:

'There are 70 faces to the Torah: Turn it around and around, for everything is in it'
(Bamidbar Rabba 13:15)

These are intertwined within the four ancient categories of p'shat (simple, plain), remez (hint), d'rash (insight), and sod (secret).

Concerning the number 70, the letter ayin (represented by an eye) happens to have the numerical value of 70, which may speak of the 70 ways of looking completely at scripture, turning it around and around like a jewel with many different facets.

Also, I think it speaks to the universal message given to all nations of the world, which also happen to stem from the original 70 found in Bereshiyt.

Ronen

Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, 5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. 6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

[jabcat]

I'm a huge believer in context.  I think it just makes sense.  Otherwise, I can take a myriad of scriptures on their own "merit" and make the Bible say about anything I want it to say to fit my own personal agenda. 

Extreme and silly example to make the point;  I need to go find Jesus a young colt so he can ride into Jerusalem today, because He said go get Him one.

What you are describing is exactly what takes place with those who divorce other levels of meaning from the foundational plain and simple, contextual meaning. I think the prime example of this is found in those who interpret Revelation, for example.

Ronen

I'm not sure if we're in agreement or disagreement here :), but generally I think it's obviously a big discussion, with much need for discernment.  I just think if not careful, things can be mish-mashed into an incomprehensible (and inaccurate) gospel - again, saying whatever suits my own imagination.  However, for a long time I've believed there are multiple layers/meanings in scripture, often with a primary context/meaning/application, and then always with a spiritual application to all.  For example, the colt and Jesus/Jerusalem...I believe it shows things like humility, majesty, obedience, etc., etc...

[eaglesway]

Discernment being the key word, I think. For instance, in Revelation, Jesus says, "let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches". John says,"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Sets the context- providing a baseline(context) for interpretaion(IMO)

So the context of the individual verses must be set  within  the overall purpose of the revelation, which is stated clearly in the beginning and in the end of the book(not to debate Revelations, just making a point)

[gregoryfl]

    a hint   4 faces of the Cherub[remez] :winkgrin:

Certainly Rose :). Another great example of what I am talking about. I believe the vision Ezekiel saw is indeed the spiritual reality in the heavenlies, described in a way that people can understand and visualize, and yet also, there is more to the vision than simply telling us about Cherubs with 4 faces, but to be connected to the covenant made with all living creatures, represented by man, bird, domesticated animal, and wild animal:

`And I, lo, I am establishing My covenant with you, and with your seed after you, and with every living creature which is with you, among fowl, among cattle, and among every beast of the earth with you, from all who are going out of the ark--to every beast of the earth.
(Gen 9:9-10)

and then also with the vision John saw in Revelation:
And the first Animal resembled a lion; and the second Animal resembled a calf; and the third Animal had a face like a man; and the fourth Animal resembled an eagle when flying.
(Rev 4:7)
And when he took the book, the four Animals and the twenty and four Elders fell down before the Lamb, each of them having a harp, and cups of gold full of odors, which are the supplications of the saints. And they sung a new anthem, saying: Competent are you, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because you was slain, and have redeemed us to Alaha by your blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(Rev 5:8-9)

Although not explicitly stated, many (myself included) also see this pictured and taught in how the 4 gospels were written.

Ronen