Christ's death

[thinktank]

Another key note; while the soul/spirit/breath is the "Being" of an individual, however the correlation between the breath and being of a person may be in light of the dust of his body.

Mankind was never meant to be bodiless, being disembodied he may be alive (or dead), but he is not yet "complete as a being, though still a being" until he is embodied, whether in dust, or in glory.

All I know for sure is that the Bible defines the dust of the ground given the breath of life becomes a living soul. I know that (a) soul is a breathing creature H5315 nephesh.
Practiclally from the oncet of my Bible studies and reading I had been told that we/ man is made up of three parts..
body- soul- spirit. I taught it, I understood it, I believed it. Until about a month or two ago, I read Gen. 2:7 and there it was.
It did not read that dust of the ground when The Lord God breathed into it,  recieved a soul. I read that it became a living soul. I can answer no questions about the defintiion of a dead soul or what a soul was before Gen. 2:7
And then  there is  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Man did not recieve a soul.

I received this revelation about a month ago and this is why I changed my thought to one of soul sleep to immortal spirit man, it might be a blessing to you.

Gnesis
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So man is a living soul, after the breath and dust. But what is this breath? is this breath the spirit of man?

Genesis 6

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

God here is saying that every living thing has his breath in it, even plants and animals. Animals are also called souls. So do you think that God would risk his life to save a mortal being?  A being that has breath of life, not much different from an animal or even a plant which also have his breath and God said he could make a man out of stone. So what's so special about man that makes God sacrifice his only begotten son?

The key is that Man is made in Gods image

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth [6] upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing [7] seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, [8] I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

On the sixth day God created man in his own image and then he rests on the 7th day.

So we have MAn in Gods image already exisiting, heavens and earth are finished, all animals, plant life, everyhting finished?

Exept for one thing, and this one thing is not began until day 8 or at least after day 7.

Genesis 2
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So you see that God has already produced the spirit of man on the 6th day but yet did not give man a physical body and soul until it was time to till the ground on day 8th. It could not be day 7 because God was resting.

So man = Spirit image of God male and female called he them Adam, + Breath of life(present in all flesh, electricity or power if you like) + Dust of the ground = living soul. So the question is what died in the garden of Eden? was it mans spirit or mans soul. If mans spirit did not die then it could mean that we continue to live in spirit after physical death, just as Samuel did, but he did not have a soul or body, which is raised at the last trumpet for those asleep in Christ, but for those who did not know him, they did not receive the promise as Hebrews says.

Samuel said "why have you disturbed me" A spirit without a soul, must be bored as they no longer have access to material things to enjoy, no love, no knowledge, so maybe those who die without christ are as Samuel they asleep with boredom. But those who have christ within, are filled with love for love is in them.


Not sure about the next part, but it makes sense
original spirit = male/female, so when God splits Eve[female] from Adams[male and female called Adam] spirit , they Adam and Eve cleave to one another as one flesh, for they are not only from the same flesh but also from the same spirit. So they cleave in flesh and also spirit for the natural mirrors the spiritual.

:2c:

[Lefein]

Hmmn, I still feel for some reason that the spirit of a person, and their soul (mind) go together some how.

Sheol however, gives me pause...The Spirit goes back to God, and so we go to God the all consuming omnipresent fire.  But what of Sheol...

[micah7:9]

LIFE G5590 psuchē  From G5594; breath,G5594 psuchō A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently
SOUL  G5590 psuchē  From G5594; breath, G5594 psuchō A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently

SOUL H5315 nephesh  properly a breathing creature From H5314 to breathe
LIFE  H5315 nephesh  properly a breathing creature From H5314 to breathe 
ALIVE  H2416 chay  alive;

Strongs, "mentions mind" in all its meanings in both the Hebrew and the Greek. It does not say that the soul "is" the mind as Bro. Eby states. I contend that when the body/dust/flesh is entwined with the spirit/breath/life this becomes a living soul, a living soul then ignites the lusts and desires, the senses = the mind. The way I read and understand soul it is life, it is a breathing creature. As much as I love Bro. Eby's work and I have been reading his Echos for a while, I do no agree that man "has a soul" a soul is a living creature, the soul is the the living creature.
Job 7:15  So that my l(breath or life) chooseth strangling, Death, rather than these my bones!

[micah7:9]

Hmmn, I still feel for some reason that the spirit of a person, and their soul (mind) go together some how.

Sheol however, gives me pause...The Spirit goes back to God, and so we go to God the all consuming omnipresent fire.  But what of Sheol...

I do not accept the thought that the "soul is the mind" I contend when the body and spirit become one we get a living soul from that combinaion the mind and all its attributes ignite and we have perhaps ego/self, and that, is susceptable to the wiles of the adversary.
Sheol is the grave, pit. Hades, hell grave pit the body returns to dust and the spirit to the one who gave it,when the time comes for the resurrection the state the living soul was in when death comes, that state, the Lord will bring back for the judgment. my  :2c:

[Beloved Servant]

Micah,
I've written to Preston in the past and he promptly wrote back.
A very kind and polite soul.
Give it a try and report back here, I'm very interested in what he would say.
Also, ask him to join the Tentmaker forum!

[Beloved Servant]

mind, will, emotion, desire — the 4 horns
and affection — the crown in the center — it is love — the two angels facing each other looking down on the crown — are us and jesus

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Beloved.....you read my mind, I was about to post this......  :laughing7:

All good, but personally I don't agree with 5 parts of the soul, nor that affection is a part independent of desire. Desire and affection are inter-related, for one, and two, desire covers the sheer essence of the soul itself. Eve desired the fruit.

What we are taught thru this flesh experience is to desire Him above all else, and that is setting our affection on that which is above. And reason number three, there are 4 horns on the altar, not 5. But he is the first person I've heard in 24 years who knew there were more than 3 parts, so it's all good, LOL.

The soul is the "record keeper" of the deeds done in the flesh body. A lot of the NDE's report having an experience of seeing their whole life flash before them in seconds, and for many, that's their first "introduction" to their own soul. My  :2c: Blessings....

PS. But the crown and the angels are not on the brazen altar, they're on the Ark mercy seat.

[Lefein]

Micah, I am attempting to figure out the correlation between sentience, of which "mind" is an inevitable bi-product, and the nature of certain circumstances.

Samuel was raised up out of Sheol - he was shown to be a sentient being, who had a mind capable of conversation.  Yet he was disembodied, and it is from the spirit that the soul comes, not the dust.

The Spirit goes back to God, the body ceases to be animated and fulfills its aging process, decaying and becoming part of the elements from wence it came.  The soul however in the OT at least, went to Sheol - but the soul depends on the spirit to exist, because you cannot have a mind (rational faculties, maimed, distorted, whole, or otherwise; for example, the ability to converse) without sentience, and you can't have sentience without Life.

Samuel, a being pulled forth from Sheol, exhibited conversation, which means he had a mind, which means he was sentient, which means that somehow he was still by some means or another - "breathed/breathing" while being yet disembodied.

hmmn...things to ponder...

Perhaps it has something to do with God's omnipresence - even in Sheol God's presence is there...and so the soul is still emanating from the spirit (that is a finite spirit) that has indeed returned to God (The Spirit who is infinite), who is present in Sheol, as well as the land of the living, and Heaven.

[Beloved Servant]

PS.
I know where the crown is.

PSS.
I was thinking of you when I wrote it   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: .

PSSS.
That post is not of Preston, it's me.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: oh, ok.....my bad...... :icon_jokercolor:

[Molly]

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

[micah7:9]

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Mat 10:28  And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Lefein......yes you can have sentient thought without the life of the Spirit......some "life" is really death, as His comment about the dead burying the dead proved. To be carnally minded IS death. The soul without the headship of the Spirit IS dead; it's why we must be born from above. We exchange the womb-man of the soul, for the womb of the morning of our true mother, which is above. Like Mary was in the natural, we must have a chaste virgin womb for the Christ child to be birthed thru.

We've been conditioned to look at a dead body of flesh and say they died the moment IT stopped breathing, but in spiritual fact, they died from having the wrong "head" before the body ever followed suit. The principle is, the body can only do what it sees it's head do, (whatever head they have), which is why Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father do. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[Molly]

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Mat 10:28  And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna!

So killing the body does not mean you have killed the soul.

[micah7:9]

Micah,
I've written to Preston in the past and he promptly wrote back.
A very kind and polite soul.
Give it a try and report back here, I'm very interested in what he would say.
Also, ask him to join the Tentmaker forum!

Perhaps I will, but as I have said Ive read Bro. Eby for 35 years and I know what he has taught, Ive brought this up on this here forum for the forum, to consider. But what you seem to do is give me Bro. Ebys' revelations rather than what you have been given to seek out. No one as of yet has been able to say that the deffinition of a soul is something other than what the Bible says it is in Gen.2:7 What I recieve is the evidence of someones teachings, the fact that the word soul is feminne is reason enough to know that soul  is a receiver rather than a giver (male.)
I would say the 5 parts are speaking o the 5 senses of the living soul.

[micah7:9]

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Mat 10:28  And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna!

So killing the body does not mean you have killed the soul.

If I begin to believe that what you folks are seeming to say that the deffinition of a soul in Gen. 2:7 is wrong, that the soul is some thing I have in me that drives my desires and it is an enitiy of itself, then all the rest of my studying has been useless and a waste of time for the Bible's deffinition of something is in err so then the entire lump is in err?

[Beloved Servant]

Sometimes we just have to wait on the Lord's timing to open our eyes.
Maybe it's not His time yet to reveal it.

[Molly]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 6:23


...so that where I am, there you may be also.

--John 14:3

[micah7:9]

Sometimes we just have to wait on the Lord's timing to open our eyes.
Maybe it's not His time yet to reveal it.

I can only hope you meant that as a two way statement.

[micah7:9]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 6:23


...so that where I am, there you may be also.

Amen of a truth.

[Beloved Servant]

Of course, and I considered writing it differently but dismissed the idea.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Male and female created He THEM, ie. they were BOTH, male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one vessel. Remember He called THEIR name Adam, and He created them BOTH male and female. It witnesses the fact there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus; not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.

The soul is a WITNESS. The creation is a witness to the Spirit of God; it reflects His glory and principles of the kingdom. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

The record states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL" (Gen. 2:7). Man did not come forth from the hand of God as a glorious shining spirit-being, neither did he begin his existence as the depraved, sensual, animalistic creature he is today. Man was created neither a beast nor a god, but a LIVING SOUL. The realm of perfect human life, the living soul, was a plane of life which far transcended the realm of corruption and death which passed upon man through the eating of the tree of knowledge. But is was also a plane of life which was than, and inferior to that glorious realm of DIVINE LIFE which was available to man in the tree of life. Thus, "all the trees of the garden" signify the realm of man as a perfect, sinless, LIVING SOUL. Adam, as a living soul, feasted upon the fruits of "all the trees of the garden." (Eby Echos#4)
Ecc 3:18  Said, I, in my heart, as concerning the sons of men, That God was minded to prove them,—and that they might see, that they were beasts, of themselves.
Psa 82:6  I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM, ie. they were BOTH, male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one vessel. Remember He called THEIR name Adam, and He created them BOTH male and female. It witnesses the fact there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus; not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.
Amen!


The soul is a WITNESS. The creation is a witness to the Spirit of God; it reflects His glory and principles of the kingdom. Blessings....

I dont see where the soul is a witness.
There is no soul without the coupling of body and spirit, thats what I have seen.

[Molly]

Jesus tells his disciples--where I'm going you cannot come.  Well, why not?

Then he says he is going to prepare a place for them--is this the house which will clothe us referred to by Paul?  As we are now clothed in corruption, we need to be clothed in immortality?  We must 'put on' immortality, Paul tells us, like one puts on a cloak.

So something is surviving death, something that puts on immortality, that goes to where Jesus is, that inherits eternal life--what is that?  It is certainly not this body of corruption.

Then what is it, if not the soul?  Didn't Abraham live in tents waiting...

10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

--Heb 11