Tentmaker Forum

This may soung like a strange question, I found it odd at first myself, but here you go.

When did Christ die?

never.

It's not an odd question.  It's a good question.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2010, 07:38:08 AM



never.

Why would you give that answer? 
1Co 15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2010, 07:55:12 AM
It's not an odd question.  It's a good question.

I really believe so too.

The anointing of God can not die.

The body of Jesus did for three days.

 :cloud9: Kinda messes you up at first when you see that Christ is/was the Anointed One, doesn't it, Micah?   :winkgrin: Christ is the Seed that bears fruit after "it's" own kind, and "it's" own kind is the Father, and the Father is a SPIRIT.

He is the bread that came down from heaven, the LIFE of which, we drink. Unless a man eat of My flesh and drink of My blood, there is no life in Him. The life is in the blood. It was THIS blood that was taken into the Holy of Holies for us, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The Anointed One "died" in the same way God did; by pouring His life/blood out. God "died" by pouring Himself into His creation, the lesser glory. It's only lesser because it's visible, "denser", but has His attributes, His spiritual Truth embodied in it, because how can He truly be any less than what He is? Answer is, He can't.

Jesus the man, was the "creation" that the Word/Anointed One that is SPIRIT, poured Himself into to make flesh or visible. He's doing the same thing with us, one "creation" at a time. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2010, 04:30:11 PM


The anointing of God can not die.

The body of Jesus did for three days.

I had debated on using the word Christ in that question for the very reason you speak of Beloved, but the very truth that it is Jesus The  Christ who died I left it as Christ.

Cardinal, it didnt mess me up at all.

 :cloud9: My mistake.....you weren't referring to what I thought you were......uh, never mind......
:laughing7:

I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man. He had to leave the realm of immortality and die in a house of flesh to complete His work.
So Jesus The Christ was a man dying as he walked among men for 33 and a half years. When He said, "It is finished," He meant His dying here, was over. He died FOR us ( not instead of ) when He came down to be in the likeness of sinful flesh. His work was finished on the cross.
Now today, when we suffer for Him in anyway, it is not the dying dead man that is being persecuted, it is the new man that suffers the idignities, for the old man was crucified with Him.
The word "resurrection" means Rising Again. I look at how many times Israel had a "rising again," I am convinced that many of the members of the Body have that same experience of rising again, and thats just another reason for loving the Father and His Son that much more.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 27, 2010, 08:19:56 PM
I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man. He had to leave the realm of immortality and die in a house of flesh to complete His work.
So Jesus The Christ was a man dying as he walked among men for 33 and a half years.

Just a thought. Some may even find it relevant....
Jesus was in the grave/heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights like Jonah was in the fish. Grave=earth=death.
What if those 3 days and 3 night were (not only) when He was in the tomb but refering to His ministry (3 summers and 3 winters) :mshock:

In the same way that Adam was after his disobedience upon eating the fruit - dying he died, so too would Jesus the 2nd/Last Adam have been "dying he died" in his mission to take on the death penalty and paying the debt - It is finished.

Jesus while in a mortal body of dust and clay like us was dying, like us, until at last he died.  Then rising again in a body of fire, light and glory he lives incorruptible forever more - and we live because of that.

I always thought he remained dead. But now I no longer belive in soul sleep, so I belive he carried on living via spirit, by which he preached to the spirits in prison who lonng time ago were disobedient. ALso he himself said I will destroy this temple and raise it up in 3 days. A temple is a house of the true life of God.

:2c:

TT,

I can understand you believed in soul sleep. There are at least a few verses that can be read that way.
But I wonder how you once could believe He remained dead. A few verses after His death there are many very clear and direct verses He's not dead.

So  :dontknow:

Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."

It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."

I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone. 

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this: 

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.

You know as well as I (or maybe you don't, but now you do) that you need a SECOND WITNESS to establish any spiritual truth.  I gave you that second witness, but you didn't even get it because you are still thinking carnal and physical and literal, and that kind of thinking will never explain a parable, as parables are only "SPIRITUALLY discerned."

The second Scripture that is a Second Witness to "heart of the earth" is "Now that He ascended [which He did], what is it but that He also descended first into the LOWER [DEPTH, LOWER, UNDER, LOWEST LEVEL, etc.] parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:9).  There it is. There  is the second witness.  But you still don't know what this parable is. The "heart [depth] of the earth" IS the parable.


BT L. Ray Smith

There it is.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2010, 11:21:20 PM
There it is.

Ok. where "it" is?

The heart of stone in every man.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2010, 09:50:12 PM
TT,

I can understand you believed in soul sleep. There are at least a few verses that can be read that way.
But I wonder how you once could believe He remained dead. A few verses after His death there are many very clear and direct verses He's not dead.

So  :dontknow:

Because I confused soul with spirit. There is a prophecy which said,

Psalm 16:10 
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So I once believed his soul died and also his spirit with the soul, for with soul sleep, the spirit is one with soul and not seperable.

I saw hell as sheol or the grave. But now I think there could be some kind of place down there under the earth, but I'm not certain about that and as to it's purpose. What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a  soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief on the cross and to preach to the spirits etc (whether they be angel or human)  :dontknow: . His spirit can be anywhere at all times, who manifests himself to e.g when people pray together. But his soul is his resurected body, who keeps his earthly identity, the lamb of God that is slain in the book of revelation and his personal appearances after his resurection to his disciples in a orderly timely manner.

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM
Psalm 16:10 
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So I once believed his soul died and also his spirit with the soul, for with soul sleep, the spirit is one with soul and not seperable.

I'll ignore the soul sleep part to keep this thread on-topic.
That Psalm says the soul will not be left in hell/grave.
The body will not see corruption/decay. IIRC decay sets in at 4 days (see story of Lazarus raised from the dead)
So if the souls and spirit are not seperable then they both get out of the grave because the soul will not be left in the grave as Psalm state. (A certain verse states that the spirit returns to where it came from)

QuoteI saw hell as sheol or the grave.

They are all the same. Remember that hell means "hidden". Also see it's pagan roots.

QuoteWhy was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?
Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant hidden, out of sight? Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they went to hel, they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.
Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.
Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.
Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.
The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.

QuoteBut now I think there could be some kind of place down there under the earth, but I'm not certain about that and as to it's purpose.

I think you got that view from the Lazarus and Richman parable.
Many claim the underworld/under the earth has 2 compartments. The paradise side with the saints. The hell side with the sinners.
Many of who believe that also thing when Jesus was dead He preached in prison (the underworld) and emptied the paradise side.
Note: I'm not endorsing that view. I just mention what I've read and is on-topic.

QuoteWhat I am more certain about is that Jesus has a  soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief

Sure He will meet the thief. But when? 
Verily I say to you today you shall be in paradise. <--- Greek doesn't know comma's.
Verily I say to you today, you shall be in paradise. <--- Today I'm making you a promise for sometime in the future.
Verily I say to you, today you shall be in paradise. <--- You will be in paradise with me today.
Make your choice TT. But remeber:
- Jesus was not in paradise today. He was in a tomb.
- Jesus did not ascend to Father today. He was in the tomb and spent some time on earth before He ascended.

Jesus died.  Deader than a door nail !

Jesus is the first born from the Dead!  This means the first human ever to be raised unto immortality!  The idea that humans contain any type of immortality (Soul or Spirit) is purely from Platonic teachings and not the scriptures.  
The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):
"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."

That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament and the early Church Fathers rejected.

Paul

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM

What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief on the cross and to preach to the spirits etc  (whether they be angel or human) 

You are mistaken!  Jesus life spirit returned to His God whom gave it, and He died!  What saith the scriptures?  

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

What happened to Jesus' Spirit...

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Luk 23:46  And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."  Having said this, He breathed His last.

Yet, Jesus had not yet returned to His Father!


Joh 20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Indeed, Jesus died and gave up His spirit yet tells us... " for I have not yet ascended to the Father."   Believe Him and not the Platonist views you have been fed!

Paul

A man is not his soul however, and his body is just a garment.

Some have been taken up to Heaven already, Enoch, Elijah, and assumedly Moses, certainly Jesus.

Samuel also was pulled up from the grave along with others by the witch of Endor, "elohim" she called them - most likely because the spirits of the dead are superhumanesque, or have that presence of dread.

Samuel had to be pulled up from somewhere, along with those who were with him.  I don't think the witch could have pulled up all of Sheol, rather than looked down into it and called one out, if I may be so bold and speak a little bit in an extra biblical or speculative sense.  Sheol is a place, and it is surely a "somewhere".

After all, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire in the end.

The Captives in Sheol were also lead out of it, the prisoners that Jesus preached to in the grave...But I don't think they would have been lead out of Sheol just to be lead into "non-existence" or something tantamount to it to waiting millenniea for their resurrection.

Quote"Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."

Sounds to me like a statement of trust, rather than a statement of immediacy.

However, it may have been a declaration of both, as soon after (3 days hence) Jesus was indeed sitting at the right hand of the Father, as a fellow follower attested to later, and said.

Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

This very same follower, by the name of Stephen who said;

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 02:49:51 AM
Some have been taken up to Heaven already, Enoch, Elijah, and assumedly Moses, certainly Jesus.

Jesus Yes!  Enoch, Elijah and Moses... not even close!

Believe Jesus,(John 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Yes, you may say... What about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth. This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab's vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:
"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus' statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven."  Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man's interpretation of this verse is wrong?

What about Enoch?

The problem with Enoch is two-fold. The first is in Genesis 5:24, it states:
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

In order to understand this verse you will have to read all of chapter five. People claim that since of everyone else it is said, "then he died" and of Enoch it is not, but instead it says that he "walked with God, for God took him," then that means that Enoch went to heaven with God. If you read the paragraph that talks about Enoch without this preconceived idea, you will come to the conclusion that Enoch died.

It says in verse 23:
"That the whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years."

To me that implies that Enoch's whole lifetime was three hundred and sixty-five years and then he died. I do not see any hint that Enoch did not die. It says that "Enoch walked with God," but so did Noah in Genesis 6:10:
"Noah, a good man and blameless in that age, for he walked with God."

"Walked with God," means that the person follows God's will. "God took him," means that God took his breath of life and that person died. We still use this saying today, we commonly say that God took a family member or a friend when we mean that someone died. The word translated as "took" is the Hebrew word laqah. It means:
laqah – of removal by death (The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon).

An excellent example of the usage of this word is in Ezekiel 33:6:
"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the warning trumpet, so that the sword comes and takes (laqah) anyone, I will hold the watchman responsible for that person's death, even though that person is taken (laqah) because of their own sin."

Notice how it is used, the sword comes and takes someone, in other words, kills someone. This is why the watchman will be held responsible for that person's death.
So why is there a difference between the phrases of all the other people mentioned and Enoch? There is no clear-cut answer, but my opinion is that something happened to Enoch that cut his life short. Either an accident or illness, but something that prevented him from dying of old age like the others. Everyone mentioned lived to over nine hundred years old, except Lamech who lived to almost eight hundred years old. However, Enoch only lived to be three hundred and sixty-five years old. Something happened to Enoch that cut his life short; this is why it is said, "God took him."
   
The second verse is in Hebrews 11:5 where Paul is speaking about the faith of the ancients. It says:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was found no more because God had taken him."
The problem that we arrive at if we say that because of this verse Enoch did not die, is that the same author in the same chapter in verse 13 says that all the ancients that he was talking about (which Enoch was one of) have died:
"All these died in faith."

So Abraham and Noah and Enoch and all the others mentioned died. So how do we explain verse 5? The clue is in knowing what the author meant when he said "That he should not see death." Obviously he does not mean that he did not die because he writes a few verses later that he did die.

In John 8:51 Jesus says:
"I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."
This is identical to Hebrews 11:5. I do not think that Jesus meant that whoever keeps his word will be taken to heaven without ever experiencing death. It is more likely that Jesus means that whoever keeps his word will not experience eternal death. That they will be resurrected on the last day. Hebrews 11:5 meaning is probably along these lines.

For me, I am convinced that Enoch did die. I cannot let one verse that I cannot explain fully counter all the evidence in the massive amount of verses that are very specific on death.

Paul who wrote Hebrews says in Romans 5:12:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."
Death came to all men, that includes Enoch. This statement of Paul also strengthens the position of Hebrews 11:13 "They all died in faith."

If we isolate Enoch from all the evidence on death, the preponderance of the evidence is about 75% in favor that Enoch died, and 25% that he did not see death. If we do not isolate Enoch from all the other Scriptures on death Enoch is really not a factor.

If Enoch went to heaven, then again, we have to assume that Jesus was wrong in John 3:13:     "No one has gone up to heaven."


Paul

Then where the heck did Elijah, Enoch, and Moses go?  :mshock:

An observation though; Going to Heaven, going home to be with the Lord, etc; wouldn't ruin glory...because our home is a remade Earth and Universe (Heaven included I am sure), not just Heaven.

Jesus said that no one has gone up to Heaven indeed, but what about after he did?  He has a glorified body as the first fruit - which we shall also have, but disembodiment as a spirit in Heaven seems possible, considering the nature of Angels there already, atleast as far as we know of them.

Revelation seems to show saints before the resurrection pleading for their recompense for those who had spilled their blood.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are (as far as I can read) in Heaven, in the presence of God these souls who are awaiting their brethren, and their recompense.  They are "resting" in Heaven it would seem.

I'd always thought of Heaven as a resort, a place of rest until it is time to "go Home" (the glorified new creation) and it seems to make some sort of sense in light of Revelation which while it may be symbolic, I believe there is a literal kernel to all of it.

It is of my belief, that the souls, and spirits atleast (though bodiless) of the saints are in Heaven at rest, not in Sheol, or the grave.  Because we are filled with life upon being saved, and so the grave should not be able to hold us.  The unsaved however...perhaps so, perhaps they are held by the grave, and held by Death, that might explain ghosts if they exist at all, not to go off topic or extra biblical.  But only to contrast the difference.  Those who are dead, and those who are alive.

Heaven is God's throne.

Jesus walked the earth while in heaven.

Heaven is also a place.

...without location.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 05:40:20 AM
Then where the heck did Elijah, Enoch, and Moses go?  :mshock:

An observation though; Going to Heaven, going home to be with the Lord, etc; wouldn't ruin glory...because our home is a remade Earth and Universe (Heaven included I am sure), not just Heaven.

Jesus said that no one has gone up to Heaven indeed, but what about after he did?  He has a glorified body as the first fruit - which we shall also have, but disembodiment as a spirit in Heaven seems possible, considering the nature of Angels there already, atleast as far as we know of them.

Revelation seems to show saints before the resurrection pleading for their recompense for those who had spilled their blood.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are (as far as I can read) in Heaven, in the presence of God these souls who are awaiting their brethren, and their recompense.  They are "resting" in Heaven it would seem.

I'd always thought of Heaven as a resort, a place of rest until it is time to "go Home" (the glorified new creation) and it seems to make some sort of sense in light of Revelation which while it may be symbolic, I believe there is a literal kernel to all of it.

It is of my belief, that the souls, and spirits atleast (though bodiless) of the saints are in Heaven at rest, not in Sheol, or the grave.  Because we are filled with life upon being saved, and so the grave should not be able to hold us.  The unsaved however...perhaps so, perhaps they are held by the grave, and held by Death, that might explain ghosts if they exist at all, not to go off topic or extra biblical.  But only to contrast the difference.  Those who are dead, and those who are alive.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 05:56:59 AM
Heaven is also a place.

Just where in the Written Word does it say at what location "heaven" is, other than lofty or high up?

Isn't Enoch the seventh from Adam and he lived 365 years?   

Seems like a complete cycle and much, much more than meets the eye. 

Quote from: Pierac on October 28, 2010, 02:17:17 AM
Jesus died.  Deader than a door nail !

Jesus is the first born from the Dead!  This means the first human ever to be raised unto immortality!  The idea that humans contain any type of immortality (Soul or Spirit) is purely from Platonic teachings and not the scriptures.  
The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Christian Words and Christian Meanings, by John Burnaby (pp. 148, 149):
"Greek philosophers had argued that the dissolution which we call death happens to nothing but bodies, and that the souls of men are by their native constitution immortal. The Greek word for immortality occurs only once in the New Testament, and there it belongs to none but the King of Kings.... The immortality of the soul is no part of the Christian creed,  just as it is no part of Christian anthropology to divide soul and body and confine the real man, the essence of personality, to supposedly separable soul for which embodiment is imprisonment.... Jesus taught no doctrine of everlasting life for disembodied souls, such as no Jew loyal to the faith his fathers could have accepted or even understood. But Jewish belief was in the raising of the dead at the Last Day."

The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus' Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great."

That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament and the early Church Fathers rejected.

Paul

Amen

Quote from: Pierac on October 28, 2010, 02:39:21 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM

What I am more certain about is that Jesus has a soul and a spirit. The soul died, but his spirit lived onwards to meet the thief on the cross and to preach to the spirits etc  (whether they be angel or human) 

You are mistaken!  Jesus life spirit returned to His God whom gave it, and He died!  What saith the scriptures?  

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 12:7  and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

What happened to Jesus' Spirit...

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Luk 23:46  And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."  Having said this, He breathed His last.

Yet, Jesus had not yet returned to His Father!


Joh 20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Indeed, Jesus died and gave up His spirit yet tells us... " for I have not yet ascended to the Father."   Believe Him and not the Platonist views you have been fed!

Paul

Amen

QuoteJust where in the Written Word does it say at what location "heaven" is, other than lofty or high up?

Thrones tend to be in places.  Unless the throne of God is sitting somewhere in Vegas...?

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Heavenly places, or as the CLV puts it; in the celestials.  Likewise we battle not against flesh but against various things in the celestial realms, or the heavenlies, or in high places.

Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

"IN" heaven.

Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Various things of that sort in the written word.

Just because we don't know its location doesn't mean it isn't a place.

Justin Martyr  Was a Christian apologist, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165. Two "Apologies" bearing his name and his "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon" have come down to us.

The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80):

"They who maintain the wrong opinion say that there is no resurrection of the flesh. . . As in the case of a yoke of oxen, if one or other is loosed from the yoke, neither of them can plough alone; so neither can soul or body alone effect anything, if they be unyoked from their communion . . ." [i.e. the soul can have no separate existence]. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man?  No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No; but it is called the body of man. If then neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . . Then what thanks are due to Him, and what manifestation of His power and goodness is it, if He purposed to save what is by nature saved. . . . but no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. . . . How then did Christ raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body. . . . Why do we any longer endure those unbelieving arguments and fail to see that we are retrograding when we listen to such an argument as this: That the soul is immortal, but the body mortal, and incapable of being revived. For this we used to hear from Plato, even before we learned the truth. If then the Saviour said this and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing beyond what we heard from Plato, did He bring us?"

Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.


Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho:

Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"

Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points  are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . .  We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The Day of the Lord,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."

Paul

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 06:23:36 AM

QuoteJust where in the Written Word does it say at what location "heaven" is, other than lofty or high up?

Thrones tend to be in places.  Unless the throne of God is sitting somewhere in Vegas...?

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Heavenly places, or as the CLV puts it; in the celestials.  Likewise we battle not against flesh but against various things in the celestial realms, or the heavenlies, or in high places.

Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

"IN" heaven.

Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Various things of that sort in the written word.

Just because we don't know its location doesn't mean it isn't a place.

Joh 6:63  The spirit, it is, that giveth life,—the flesh, profiteth, nothing: The declarations which, I, have spoken unto you, are, spirit, and, are, life.
This is important to understand, Jesus walked, taught, and talked in and of spirit. Heavens diffinition H8064 root meaning to be lofty; G3772  (through the idea of elevation);
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (to rise or "rear"akin to G142; to lift

Joh 14:9 Jesus is saying to him, "So much time I am with you, and you do not know Me, Philip! He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how are you saying, 'Show us the Father'?

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say—Lo, here! or, There. For lo! the kingdom of God, is, among you.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they be declaring 'Lo! here!' or 'Lo! there!' for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you."
Luk 17:21  neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
The kingodm of God is heaven, that is understood yes?

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 02:49:51 AM
A man is not his soul however, and his body is just a garment.

Some have been taken up to Heaven already, Enoch, Elijah, and assumedly Moses, certainly Jesus.

Samuel also was pulled up from the grave along with others by the witch of Endor, "elohim" she called them - most likely because the spirits of the dead are superhumanesque, or have that presence of dread.

Samuel had to be pulled up from somewhere, along with those who were with him.  I don't think the witch could have pulled up all of Sheol, rather than looked down into it and called one out, if I may be so bold and speak a little bit in an extra biblical or speculative sense.  Sheol is a place, and it is surely a "somewhere".

After all, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire in the end.

The Captives in Sheol were also lead out of it, the prisoners that Jesus preached to in the grave...But I don't think they would have been lead out of Sheol just to be lead into "non-existence" or something tantamount to it to waiting millenniea for their resurrection.

Quote"Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT."

Sounds to me like a statement of trust, rather than a statement of immediacy.

However, it may have been a declaration of both, as soon after (3 days hence) Jesus was indeed sitting at the right hand of the Father, as a fellow follower attested to later, and said.

Act 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

This very same follower, by the name of Stephen who said;

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Here is where we off track,  I believe, what happened?

Pierac, Revelation shows souls of the saints under the altar in the presence of God, acting and pleading for their vengeance on them who dwell on the earth.  They aren't in Sheol, Hell doesn't exist, and they aren't on the Earth, or else they would have said something a little different like "on those who dwell with us on the earth" or "are in our presence on the earth" or something of that sort.  So in light of this, the only location I can think of would be Heaven.  And this is pre-resurrection mind you.  :thumbsup:

That speaks plainly enough to me about the possibility that just because one is deprived of the body, they still have consciousness, or at the very least some form of interactive existence.  Just as Samuel was raised up to speak to Saul - yet he was not resurrected from Sheol in a body.

If someone could be raised, or seen out of Sheol, a dead prophet, and interact with the living, then what of a living saint who lives in Christ?  Surely they can interact with God, and surely they are not in Sheol, that is the land of the dead, not the living.

Micah7:9, Yes, the Kingdom of God is within us, but it will also be an established and literal reign on the Earth - just as Heaven is indeed a place, the Bible shows it as a place well enough.

"out of heaven, in heaven, from heaven, up to heaven, etc."  Even if it is "the sky" there is some essence to it that is an invisible realm of God's throne, proof of this being that God's throne is Heaven, and in it, as it is a place indeed as shown by the words used for it - yet we can't look at it through a telescope.

Not everything in the Bible is a mere state of mind...

And we need to remember that after the Cross, things drastically changed.  Jesus was still under The Law, and hence Sheol, Death, and the old glory of things was still in effect.  After his work on the cross, and subsequent resurrection I am certain that alot of things changed.

How these things changed I am not yet certain, but I do not believe that the saved are in any means doomed to Sheol like our predecessors before Grace.  They went to Sheol because it is the place of the dead, we are not dead because we are made alive in Christ.

Where do the living in Christ go when we shed our body?  To Sheol?  To Hell?  :laughing7:

And why should we merely slip into sleep?  Samuel seemed well enough alive, as well as those whom the witch called "elohim", it wasn't just Samuel that was raised up, if indeed he was raised up at all and the witch wasn't merely seeing into Sheol.

H7585 =  HELL
שׁאל    שׁאול
she'ôl  she'ôlsheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Im not going into the hell, hades, ghenna thing again.
Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it. Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
dust of the ground(becomes flesh)+ breath of life(spirit)= living soul (living creature) What is the status of "dead" soul?
Eze 18:4  Lo! as for all persons, mine they are, As the person of the father, so also the person of the son, mine they are,—The person that sinneth, the same shall die. (Rotherham)
Eze 18:4  Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it doth die. (YLT)  Eze 18:20  The soul that doth sin--it doth die. (YLT)
Eze 18:20  The person that sinneth, the same, shall die,

A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?
The New Testament, the Gospels speak of Jesus 33 and half years walking among us and when Jesus spoke He spoke in parables, and He said His words were spirit and that we must worship in spirit and truth. He said that He did nothing unless His Father showed Him, God is Spirit. The realm of God, the realm of The Son, the realm of the Father, the realm of the Lord is SPIRIT, 
Eph 2:18  Because, through him, we have our introduction—we both—in one Spirit, unto the Father.
Eph 3:10  In order that now, unto the principalities and the authorities in the heavenlies, might be made known, through means of the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,—

Eph 4:4  One body, and one spirit, even as ye were also called in one hope of your calling,

Heaven is Spirit.

QuoteThe original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong's Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.
   The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob DIED his body was "carried over"—transported, TRANSLATED—to Sychem WHERE HE WAS BURIED! That's what your Bible says! Jacob was transported or TRANSLATED to the place of burial!

More at: http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm (http://www.cgom.org/Publications/Booklets/Enoch_Elijah.htm)

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2010, 08:32:56 AM
A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Micah, it's a bit how you/we define 'place'.

Jesus was lowered in creation. He decended and asended. For me that's solid proof He went to another 'place'.
All kind of vision/voices came out of the sky. Not for example out of the ground. Little hint perhaps?

A obvious defenition of 'place' is that God would live on the planet Mars.
But there are other types of places.
- Place in hierarchy
- Place in time. If you had a time machine and you went back 20 years in time to the house you are in right now; are you in a different place?
- Maybe you saw the movie "Sixth sense". Ghost living in a house but in other dimention/realm. Are they in a different place than the none ghosts in that house?

All are places imo.

Hi;
Isaiah 40; 12-31 " Who has measured with the waters with the hollow of his hand, or has meted out the heavens with a span, or has comprehended in a measure the dust of the earth, or weighed the mountains in scales, or the hills in a balance? Who has proved the Spirit of Yahweh? Or  being His counsellor has been giving Him knowledge? With whom has He taken counsel and has given Him intellegence and instructed Him in the path of justice and taight Him in knowledge and has given Him intellegence in the way of understanding?
Lo! Nations are as a drop on a bucket, and are accounted as fine dust on a balance,Lo! He can hoist islands like an atom and Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for an ascending sacrifice! All nations are as NOTHING before Him, a thing of nought or a waste are they accounted to Him.
Unto whom, then, can you liken God? Or what likeness can you compare to Him?
The image has been cast by an artificer, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and he works chains of silver. The needy offere makes choice of a tree that will not rot, a skilled artificer seeks out for himself to construct an image that will not totter!
Have you never taken note?
Have you never heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not been led to discern from the foundations of the earth?
It is He who sits upon the circle of the earth, while the inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches forth as a curtain the heavens, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in; Who delivers dignitaries to nothingness,- He has made judges of the earth like a desolation: scarcely have they been sown, scarcely has their stock begun to take root in the earth when He has just blown on them and they have withered, a whirlwind carried them away as though they had been chaff.
To whom then can you liken Me, or can I be equal? Says the Holy One. Lift on high your eyes and see Who has created these, that brings their host forth by number, to all of them does call by name because of the abundance of vigour and alertness of strength NOT ONE IS MISSING!
Why should you say, O Jacob, or spewak O Israel hidden is my path from Yahweh and my vindications will pass from Yahweh?
Have you not known, have you not heard, that The God of age-past time, Yahweh, the creator of the ends of the earth, does not faint nor grows weary; there is no searching of His understanding: giving strength to him that faints and causes power to abound to him that has no vigour. Youths grow weary and faint, and young warriors they fall, they fall: But they who wait upon the lLord shall renew their strength, they shall mount on strong pinion like eagles, they shall run and not grow weary they shall walk and not faint."

This talks about the circle out there from which He watches that explains a lot.

Quote from: PieracTraditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Amen Molly!

The protest of Justin Martyr against what later became orthodoxy, and remains so to this day, is no less incisive (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 80): 
I dont accept this.

"He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and body. . . Well, they say, the soul is incorruptible, being a part of God and inspired by Him. . . ." (Martyr)

The whole is made up of body(dust, flesh) and spirit (breath of life) this combination is a living soul.[ I do not know of a dead soul.]
"And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation ..." (Martyr)

The Book of Revelation is an uncovering/revealing of Jesus Christ, it is a book of sign and symbol speaking of a spiritual happening within the many membered Body of Christ. I do not accept it as literal.

"The celebrated Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
"No biblical text authorizes the statement that the soul is separated from the body at the moment of death" (Vol. 1, p. 802).

Thats because Gen. 2:7 DEFINES what a "living soul" is. The body=a form made of dust of the ground
when given the breath of life BECOMES a living soul. Without a body and without breath, there is no soul.
IF soul and spirit are the same thing, as it seems that is what is believed, then what do we do with Gen.2:7?
Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
Pro 20:27  The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

God is Spirit. If I understand correctlly He is ".. Father of spirits and be living." (Heb. 12:9) when a living soul or soul, dies, the body=dust returns to the earth, and the spirit=breath of life returns to the one who gave it.

There is no "immortal soul" in the Bible, the soul is not an enitiy of itself.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2010, 10:51:31 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2010, 08:32:56 AM
A scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Micah, it's a bit how you/we define 'place'.

Jesus was lowered in creation. He decended and asended. For me that's solid proof He went to another 'place'.
All kind of vision/voices came out of the sky. Not for example out of the ground. Little hint perhaps?

A obvious defenition of 'place' is that God would live on the planet Mars.
But there are other types of places.
- Place in hierarchy
- Place in time. If you had a time machine and you went back 20 years in time to the house you are in right now; are you in a different place?
- Maybe you saw the movie "Sixth sense". Ghost living in a house but in other dimention/realm. Are they in a different place than the none ghosts in that house?

All are places imo.

As far as a "place"  is concerned I like to refer to John 14.
oh 14:2  In the house of my Father, are, many dwellings; or else I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you.
Jesus is going to prepare a place and where is He going...to His Fathers house[where the Father dwells, lives]
God is Spirit (Jo. 4:24) the way I read that Jesus is going to Spirit and in that realm(spirit) He is preparing a place.
Joh 14:3  And, if I go, and prepare a place for you, again, am I coming, and will take you home unto—myself, that, where, I, am, ye also, may be.
"...will take you home(Spirit) unto myself(the Fathers house) There is the "place, spot, local, etc.")
There is not one mention of "heaven" in the entire chapter of John 14.

Heaven is lofty, high up it is a realm or place in and of the Spirit. Heaven is the realm or place where the saints are waring.
Eph 6:12  Because our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but, against the principalities, against the authorities, against the world-holders, of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenlies.

Key words--


...that, where, I, am, ye also, may be.

Key words--


yes, they, are.


http://video.aol.com/video-detail/i-am-mark-schultz/2305843010014560090/?icid=VIDURVMUS01

QuoteI have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

i agree that Jesus spoke the truth, but the translation of what He said is slanted to fit doctrine of the mainstream, here is a couple of snips  i came across, that to me, fits into the Word:

THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

"Ye shall not surely die" is the world's first recorded lie.

1] God told Adam if he sinned, he would die: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, AND HE DIED" (Gen. 5:5).

[2] Does everyone sin? "For ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3:23).

[3] What does sin bring? "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).

[4] Will all born of Adam, die? "For as in Adam ALL DIE..." (I Cor. 15:22).

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths



you can find the entire article here:

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

Gods speed

QuoteA scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Deu 26:15  Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

-KJV

Deu 26:15 Gaze from Your holy habitation, from the heavens, and bless Your people Israel and the ground that You have given to us just as You had sworn to our fathers--a land gushing with milk and honey.

-CLV

Heaven, the heavens - the invisible realms of it I assume, are his Holy Habitation, a habitation is a location.

I might not know the "perfect location via GPS" of Heaven (I can only assume it is by some means "up") but I do know that it is most certainly a place, and a habitation no less!

Yes the kingdom of God is Spirit, the flesh (carnal nature of man) cannot inherit it, but I tell you this; just because something is Spirit doesn't mean it is vapour, or nirvanous.  The Angel of the Lord is most certainly Spirit, and he was no mere shade or ghost.  Jesus returning after the resurrection and Spirit is no less physical than the flesh of clay he was in when he walked the Earth.

I think we make a grievous error when we attribute physicality to flesh alone, and think of things in the Spirit as being "nebulous".  And twice the error when we think of Heaven as something tantamount to a state of mind.

If however you have said, or implied none of these things - I quickly take it back.

Thank you that was great. In fact its worth posting again for it is true

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths

That begs the question then...

Do we Christians go to Sheol?  Where do we go when we die (cast off this worn out garment of flesh)?  Do we disappear into nothingness and become temporarily annihilated, do we perish for a time, do we cease to be for a season?

Where are these things written?

If we don't go to Heaven, and Hell doesn't exist, then we must surely got to Sheol, or Gehenna, and that doesn't make a great deal of sense considering that we are supposed to begin our deathless existence on the Earth when we are saved.  Afterall, is not the Kingdom of God in us?  Is the Kingdom of God - Life itself so easily put into Sheol the land of the dead?

We should not be Sadducees who deny an afterlife, angels, (or the resurrection, but this portion of a Sadducee's theology is not what I am focused on).

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 07:50:40 PM

QuoteA scripture and a verse as to the physical location of heaven in the Bible please. Should one not be able to find such a verse and location, why would one continue to teach of such a place?

Deu 26:15  Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

-KJV

Deu 26:15 Gaze from Your holy habitation, from the heavens, and bless Your people Israel and the ground that You have given to us just as You had sworn to our fathers--a land gushing with milk and honey.

-CLV

Heaven, the heavens - the invisible realms of it I assume, are his Holy Habitation, a habitation is a location.

I might not know the "perfect location via GPS" of Heaven (I can only assume it is by some means "up") but I do know that it is most certainly a place, and a habitation no less!

Yes the kingdom of God is Spirit, the flesh (carnal nature of man) cannot inherit it, but I tell you this; just because something is Spirit doesn't mean it is vapour, or nirvanous.  The Angel of the Lord is most certainly Spirit, and he was no mere shade or ghost.  Jesus returning after the resurrection and Spirit is no less physical than the flesh of clay he was in when he walked the Earth.

I think we make a grievous error when we attribute physicality to flesh alone, and think of things in the Spirit as being "nebulous".  And twice the error when we think of Heaven as something tantamount to a state of mind.

From heaven= a high up and lofty place, raised up , lifted up thats heaven. And friend I do not SEE Spirit as vapour, spirit is the substance of Faith. Heaven and Spirit are FAR MORE THAN A STATE OF MIND.  The Words of Jesus ARE SPIRIT.  God IS SPIRIT.
Spirit is not a figment of the mind,  but spirit is a realm we must rise up to and we will if God permit.

QuoteFrom heaven= a high up and lofty place, raised up , lifted up thats heaven. And friend I do not SEE Spirit as vapour, spirit is the substance of Faith. Heaven and Spirit are FAR MORE THAN A STATE OF MIND.  The Words of Jesus ARE SPIRIT.  God IS SPIRIT.
Spirit is not a figment of the mind,  but spirit is a realm we must rise up to and we will if God permit.

Then we have very little problem with each other on this matter.  I'm assuming correctly that we don't have problems with each other on this matter?

Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2010, 01:56:42 PM

Quote from: PieracTraditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

:cloud9: So have I. What "they" (not singling anyone out, save the "scholars") do not understand is that Eve was the soul of Adam, and in the day they sinned, they did die, yet were still alive. There are dead walking around in bodies, ie. let the dead bury the dead. The soul is the lesser glory to the spirit, just as the woman is the weaker vessel to the man, and the moon is the lesser glory to the sun.

By one man (Adam AND Eve were called Adam) sin entered the world, and by one man Jesus the Christ, whose Spirit was one with His soul already, else He could not have raised, we are shown the way back into the Father's presence. Salvation means deliverance, healing, to make whole. What is made whole is our divided state of being, the wound in our side that must be healed. When you dig in the Word over the "wide gulf" that separated Lazarus and the rich man, you will find that one of the meanings it leads to is, WOUND.

This corresponds to the inner court of the Tabernacle pattern, which had CHAMBERS for the priests. Chamber comes from the same word as RIB, and as the SIDES of Noah's ark. The wound in His side is the same as the veil being rent, and it is an OPEN DOOR back to the Father's heart. The wound in Adam's side from which God took his rib, was left uncovered, because the rib is to return, and the covering to be replaced is Christ.

God "woos" our soul to come back into union with our new Spirit within, "she" comes back into the door/Ark side that has been prepared for "her", just as the carnal beastly (soulish) natures came into Noah's Ark. Adam named them/gave them their nature; out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. They then were RAISED UP TOGETHER above the death and destruction, by both coming together in the Ark/Christ. The animals were in the bottom of the Ark, ie. submission of soul to the Spirit. The pattern has been body, soul, and spirit, but "the world" must be turned upside down, to become spirit, soul, and body. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: lookingup on October 28, 2010, 06:26:27 PM
THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

That was  a lie. They ate from the fig tree and surely did die. When I read the OT I'm sure every single person did die.
Then 4000 years later Jesus cursed the fig tree and the tree died....
Jesus was about CHANGE.
And now I'm not so sure anymore. Some NT verses hint of "step through a door to the next life" scenario.
NDEs confirm that (assuming they are true.

So, for me personally, it's very important to mention if you view applies to pre or post Jesus. (or both)
:2c:

H7585 =  HELLשׁאל    שׁאול
she'ôl   she'ôlsheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.Im not going into the hell, hades, thing again. Ghenna was the word Jesus spoke to His disciples with, it is judgment now.
Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it. Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
dust of the ground(becomes flesh)+ breath of life(spirit)= living soul (living creature)
Eze 18:4  Lo! as for all persons, mine they are, As the person of the father, so also the person of the son, mine they are,—The person that sinneth, the same shall die. (Rotherham)
Eze 18:4  Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it doth die. (YLT)  Eze 18:20  The soul that doth sin--it doth die. (YLT)
Eze 18:20  The person that sinneth, the same, shall die,
A living soul is not the same as (the) spirit, spirit belongs to the One who gave it.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2010, 07:52:15 PM
Thank you that was great. In fact its worth posting again for it is true

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

Micah imo "NEVER" is not a wrong translation in the sense what it tells about the believers.
But it does leave out important info about the sinners. And in that sense it's wrong.
Besides any translation that doesn't followed the original is bad. It's like saying: "HS had a bad day and inspired things wrong."
For me it's linked to the famous Matthew 25:46

I see it this way:
Saint: This life ----> Age-during life ----> Never ending life.
Sinner This life ----> Death ----> Never ending life.

TCB For if you+  are continually living according the flesh, you+ are going to die [the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]; yet if under the guidance of the Spirit you+ are puttingh the practices of your+ bodies to death, you+ will live [in the Last Age].

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 07:56:38 PMDo we Christians go to Sheol?  Where do we go when we die (cast off this worn out garment of flesh)?  Do we disappear into nothingness and become temporarily annihilated, do we perish for a time, do we cease to be for a season?

Even if that season takes a second it means we died (for a second).

Maybe part of the answer is thes question: Where is the old body of Jesus? Where there still parts of His old body in the grave?
If you think Jesus is our example then the answer in that rethorical question.
Then of course the next question is how many are saintly enough to recieve that honor. My guess; close to zero...

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2010, 08:23:11 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2010, 07:52:15 PM
Thank you that was great. In fact its worth posting again for it is true

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

Micah imo "NEVER" is not a wrong translation in the sense what it tells about the believers.
But it does leave out important info about the sinners. And in that sense it's wrong.
Besides any translation that doesn't followed the original is bad. It's like saying: "HS had a bad day and inspired things wrong."
For me it's linked to the famous Matthew 25:46

I see it this way:
Saint: This life ----> Age-during life ----> Never ending life.
Sinner This life ----> Death ----> Never ending life.

TCB For if you+  are continually living according the flesh, you+ are going to die [the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]; yet if under the guidance of the Spirit you+ are puttingh the practices of your+ bodies to death, you+ will live [in the Last Age].

Rev 21:4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2010, 08:30:01 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 07:56:38 PMDo we Christians go to Sheol?  Where do we go when we die (cast off this worn out garment of flesh)?  Do we disappear into nothingness and become temporarily annihilated, do we perish for a time, do we cease to be for a season?

Even if that season takes a second it means we died (for a second).

Maybe part of the answer is thes question: Where is the old body of Jesus? Where there still parts of His old body in the grave?
If you think Jesus is our example then the answer in that rethorical question.
Then of course the next question is how many are saintly enough to recieve that honor. My guess; close to zero...
[/quote

Could the "old" body of Christ be the "many membered" body that is growing into Christ now,  just as the "body" of Moses that was disputed over be that body of people we read of that began to hear John the Voice in the wilderness?

You can see the curch as the body of Christ and all that kinda stuff. Fine no problem with that.
But unless I completely mistunderstand what this thread is about we are taking about real normal bodies with arms and legs.

If bodies are instantly 'upgraded' or 'transported' to heaven then lot's of people must be missing. They "died" and instantly were gone.
All people who are cremated or buried obviously didn't resurrect. Family members said their goodbye when they saw the dead person in the coffin.
That means:
a] Nobody ever met a person worthy of not dying.
b] The verse has a meaning we/I don't understand.
c] The Jesus resurrection was a special occasion because also His body was gone. It was a one time event. Others go to heaven and recieve a new body there.

?

My thoughts are this:

The body is resurrected later - and glorified just like Jesus' was.

We when we die go to Heaven in a manner like John - taken up in the Spirit and there we rest until it is time to fulfill the end of the age and be resurrected and all that follows forth.  Our bodies remain here, decay, rot, become as empty shells, and worn out garments that pass away into dust.  Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

The saints (first fruits) are alive in Christ, our lives are hidden away in him, and no one that has been given to him will slip out of his fingers, or be taken - not by devils, man, or death itself.  The body may wear out, and finish its aging process (becoming dust), but the Being (soul/spirit?) of a person lives on in Christ, not in nothingness or death.  Disembodiment doesn't necessarily merit being useless, or dead, or unable to experience some form of life, it means more or less that we are merely "unclad", or "unclothed", naked in the presence of God, but not ashamed.

When those who are dead - the lost die, I am not for certain what happens to them, they might remain disembodied in Sheol, the grave, or they might go to Gehenna to be purified and then go up to Heaven later to await the resurrection, but I don't think that is likely considering the nature of The Lake of Fire's purpose compared to that of Hades and Death.  I am more leaning towards a sort of Sheolesque type of existence when it comes to those who have not yet received life, perhaps it is these who sleep, or sleep walk, or dream I do not know.  But perhaps this is where the verse "let the dead bury their dead" comes into play, perhaps it is "none of our business" or irrelevant to us who are alive, what happens to those who die being dead. 

All we know is thus: They are dead, we are alive, but all will be resurrected unto world-lasting chastisement, or life, and then shall come deathless perfection for everyone when God is all in all.

Perhaps it is not our place to be concerned what happens to those who "die being dead", only that perhaps our mission in evangelism is to bring people into Life to receive Life sooner (like us) rather than later in the resurrection, and after their purification.  :dontknow:

The point of my post however; is that there must be some sort of significance to the fact that we are in Christ here and now, Christ who is The Life.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 09:08:05 PM
The point of my post however; is that there must be some sort of significance to the fact that we are in Christ here and now, Christ who is The Life.

Gal 4:19  My dear children! for whom I, again, am in birth-pains, until Christ be formed within you;—
Gal 2:20  With Christ, have I been crucified; and, living no longer, am, I, but, living in me, is, Christ,—while, so far as I now do live in flesh, by faith, I live—The faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up in my behalf.
Amen.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2010, 08:46:15 PM
You can see the curch as the body of Christ and all that kinda stuff. Fine no problem with that.
But unless I completely mistunderstand what this thread is about we are taking about real normal bodies with arms and legs.

If bodies are instantly 'upgraded' or 'transported' to heaven then lot's of people must be missing. They "died" and instantly were gone.
All people who are cremated or buried obviously didn't resurrect. Family members said their goodbye when they saw the dead person in the coffin.
That means:
a] Nobody ever met a person worthy of not dying.
b] The verse has a meaning we/I don't understand.
c] The Jesus resurrection was a special occasion because also His body was gone. It was a one time event. Others go to heaven and recieve a new body there.

?

Using my words, when i die my body goes back to the dust from which it came, my spirit RETURNS to the One who gave it.
No where in my Bible do I read of anyone going to heaven when they die. As far as Enoch, Elijah Heb. 11:13 answers that
they all died. And I dont care if you are cremated, ground into little pieces and spread all over the world, you will go to dust and your spirit will return to the One who gave it.

QuoteUsing my words, when i die my body goes back to the dust from which it came, my spirit RETURNS to the One who gave it.

So basically, you do go to Heaven (return to God in his habitation) when you die.  :laughing7:

From the moment we are born, we are dying. Cellular decay brings us closer and closer to our final rest. For if life is a journey, it's destination is death.

Old age leads to death. Science has found many reasons why we age. Cross-linking, free radicals, and even our own internal clock that triggers an internal poison. The process begins from the moment we are born.

Was it God's purpose to turn us into something aged and decrepit? Is this the reward for leading a good life? Or is it the results of mortal life?

Cancer, heart disease, internal infections, liver disease. It is almost guaranteed that each of us will, at some point, struggle with one or several of the myriad varieties of diseases.

Romans 8:13 (CLV) for if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying. Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living.

Living and Dying. Very different from Life and Death. The process of... The path that leads to...
And this choice is ours.

If our life, and our purpose reflects our living in accord with the flesh, we will support, even accelerate our dying process.
But, if we are 'putting the practices of the body to death,' we may be slowing down the dying process and staying our death.

John 10:10 (CLV) The thief is not coming except that he should be stealing and sacrificing and destroying. I came that they may have life eonian, and have it superabundantly.

What does this mean? Are we to take it that Jesus is offering us something we already have? Or is it something that we do not have?

Life eonian? Life for an Age? What Age?

Paul defines five Ages in the NT. He calls this one wicked. But then next Age is defined as 1000 years. It is described as a time without aging, without disease, and without death. With out dying and with out death.

What is this thing we call Life? This temporary corporeal animation? We do not see anyone who has lived through this Eon. No one is alive that saw Jesus here. No one here has exhibited signs that he/she has Eonian Life, or Life for this Eon.

Yet Jesus is offering us this type of Life. A life that comes to us without dying. Without aging, Without disease. Revelations 21:4

John 11:25 (CLV) Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. 26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

I hope the reader can see the promise made here. No dying for the Eon. And the Eon He is talking about is defined as 1000 years.

What could you do, if you could stay young physically for 1000 years? No aging. No disease. Think of it. This is Living, not Dying.

And if Eonian Life is Living (not Dying, as we do now), I wonder what Life could be?

Just food for thought.

Bon Appétit

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 09:27:40 PM

QuoteUsing my words, when i die my body goes back to the dust from which it came, my spirit RETURNS to the One who gave it.

So basically, you do go to Heaven (return to God in his habitation) when you die.  :laughing7:

Ones spirit returns to God who habitats heaven yes. Until the resurrection.

Sounds like we've answered the question of what happens to us when we die then.

The garment rots til it is remade, and the spirit of a person goes back to God.

And now we get into the fun part!  God is an all consuming fire...

So I guess that perhaps one might go to God to be purified by his fire, or else to revel in it until the time has come to be clothed again.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

--Rev 22

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?



"shall never" [die]

ou mē  eis  aiōn




G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.

Yes Lord,
I do.

THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

"Ye shall not surely die" is the world's first recorded lie.

1] God told Adam if he sinned, he would die: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, AND HE DIED" (Gen. 5:5).

[2] Does everyone sin? "For ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3:23).

[3] What does sin bring? "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).

[4] Will all born of Adam, die? "For as in Adam ALL DIE..." (I Cor. 15:22).

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths

Do not go near the swarming things.
Death has no sting.

Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2010, 01:56:42 PM

Quote from: PieracTraditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

I have experienced this--twice.  So I know it's real.  When Jesus says, you will never die, he's speaking the truth.



John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

:bigGrin:  cool what happened

Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

Quote from: thinktank on October 28, 2010, 11:23:31 PM
Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

Should that be the concept you need, then the Lord Bless.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 11:28:48 PM



Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

The structure of the earth is complex. How is it for example that when one walks towards a different country that they do not feel any difference in gravitational pull?

Likewise it is complex how all people look up, but in essence just like the sun shines outwards in all directions, so to is heaven outside of the earth to all peoples.

But of course I do not say that heaven is not on the earth, for Jesus said, "thy kingdom come on the earth as it is in heaven"

And "the kingdom of God is within"

But I believe this is only talking about a relationship with God, of utmost importance, but so to is Gods throne important, for according to Revelation God lives in mount zion, heavenly Jerusalem an this city where God lives will come to earth in the future and Gods throne will be upon the earth.

According to some NDE'ers non belivers cannot enter this city, but have to live outside it, for nothing unclean can enter this city, only those washed in the blood of the lamb.

revelation 21
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 11:28:48 PM



Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

Doesn't it interest you at all that on our little sphere, that heaven surrounds us, and encases us like swaddling clothes, that our dwelling is nestled in the visible, and invisible celestial realms above?  Like a gemstone wrapped in glistening starry fabric? -me being poetic

Does it not interest you that where ever you might look up, the glory of God is there? Being declared by the Heavens?

If you had been following the thread, lefein, you would know that tank is looking for heaven's location, and perhaps would be addressing him rather than me.

Quote from: thinktank on October 28, 2010, 11:42:08 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 11:28:48 PM



Tank,
Does that not leave people who live on opposite sides of the world looking in different directions?
Which way is up?

The structure of the earth is complex. How is it for example that when one walks towards a different country that they do not feel any difference in gravitational pull?

Likewise it is complex how all people look up, but in essence just like the sun shines outwards in all directions, so to is heaven outside of the earth to all peoples.

But of course I do not say that heaven is not on the earth, for Jesus said, "thy kingdom come on the earth as it is in heaven"

And "the kingdom of God is within"

But I believe this is only talking about a relationship with God, of utmost importance, but so to is Gods throne important, for according to Revelation God lives in mount zion, heavenly Jerusalem an this city where God lives will come to earth in the future and Gods throne will be upon the earth.

According to some NDE'ers non belivers cannot enter this city, but have to live outside it, for nothing unclean can enter this city, only those washed in the blood of the lamb.

revelation 21
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 5:14
You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.


The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
(Romans 13:12)

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2010, 11:56:52 PM


If you had been following the thread, lefein, you would know that tank is looking for heaven's location, and perhaps would be addressing him rather than me.

Hey I know where heaven is  :bigGrin: well to a degree, it's somewhere in the sky. Hey interesting thought heaven could well be, right above Jerusalem, since in revealtion it descends straight downwards. So someone in Brazil who dies can fly or be dragged by angels towards Jerusalem and live in that city  :bigGrin:

.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2010, 11:04:03 PM
THE WORLD'S FIRST LIE IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CHURCH

"And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:2-4):

"Ye shall not surely die" is the world's first recorded lie.

1] God told Adam if he sinned, he would die: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, AND HE DIED" (Gen. 5:5).

[2] Does everyone sin? "For ALL have sinned..." (Rom. 3:23).

[3] What does sin bring? "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).

[4] Will all born of Adam, die? "For as in Adam ALL DIE..." (I Cor. 15:22).

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


This is from ray smith at bibletruths

Micah, there's a double negative in that verse--oume.

"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.



G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.


G3361
μή
mē
may
A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.


Jesus is being emphatic--shall not, not ever, die unto the age(s).

shalll never never die

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Thank you Molly!

Acts 7

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

This scripture explains it well. Here we have God who's throne is in heaven, earth is his footstool. So the question is who is the temple that is not made with hands? And if he should find such a temple, does that make exempt the existence of Gods throne or nullify the earth as his footstool?

Quote from: thinktank on October 28, 2010, 11:23:31 PM
Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

  :cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave offering (as the firstfruits), AND the HEAVE offering (shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ) IN US, the two offerings together, a picture of the Head and the body. Gives new life to the scripture, "If I be LIFTED UP.....".

Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: thinktank on October 29, 2010, 12:42:25 AM
Acts 7

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

This scripture explains it well. Here we have God who's throne is in heaven, earth is his footstool. So the question is who is the temple that is not made with hands? And if he should find such a temple, does that make exempt the existence of Gods throne or nullify the earth as his footstool?

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

--Rev 3

Micah, there's a double negative in that verse--oume.

"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.



G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.


G3361
μή
mē
may
A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.


Jesus is being emphatic--shall not, not ever, die unto the age(s).

shalll never never die

The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."
So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."

Quote from: Cardinal
Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My   Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

I kind of understand what you are saying but I guess my physical mind seems to think physical. I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

Quote from: MicahHowever, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

I know that Micah, as I pointed out in my first post.  No one ever said anything about the word 'oudeic.'

The three words are

ou mē   
eis
aiōn


I showed you where oume is a double negative.

Now what do you think it means that one is never, ever, going to die unto the age(s)?

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 02:01:43 AM

Quote from: Cardinal
Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My   Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

I kind of understand what you are saying but I guess my physical mind seems to think physical. I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

  :cloud9: An analogy......If you look at an apple, there's the flesh of it, and if you go inside there's the seeds of it, right? But if you could "go" inside what the seed contains in the REAL heart of it, you'd find a tree. If you could take away the outer flesh, and the inner seeds and expose only the true "core" of it, ie. it's potential and origin,  and that was ALL you could see, THAT tree would be as "heaven".

Now did the apple or the seeds go anywhere to receive that tree that was contained in it? No, the tree was always there, but the progression of the time realm we are bound by (EXCEPT we walk in the Spirit), is all we have to be able to see the tree fully revealed. BUT: faith is, SEEING those things that are not, as though they were. What's elevated to be able to see the tree contained in it, is our perception, not our location.

It doesn't take much faith for us to imagine heaven "up there" somewhere, but it does take the God kind of faith to believe that heaven is in us, and ministers thru us. This is how we "loose" things in heaven (in us) into earth (this realm) to see the things of the Kingdom within us MANIFESTED openly. Christ in us is the hope of glory for this reason, and all glory belongs unto Him, and it gives Him glory when we manifest His kingdom attributes via the HG doing the works thru us. My  :2c: Blessings....

It doesn't take much faith for us to imagine heaven "up there" somewhere, but it does take the God kind of faith to believe that heaven is in us, and ministers thru us. This is how we "loose" things in heaven (in us) into earth (this realm) to see the things of the Kingdom within us MANIFESTED openly. Christ in us is the hope of glory for this reason, and all glory belongs unto Him, and it gives Him glory when we manifest His kingdom attributes via the HG doing the works thru us. My  :2c: Blessings....


So you do believe there is a heaven up there  :winkgrin:

I agree that believing that God is within us can be a challenge, but there's nothing wrong looking upwards for the grater glory, in fact Paul said, "he that has this hope in him purifieth himself even as he is pure"

It has been tried.
It doesn't work.

Genesis 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 06:30:55 AM

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 02:01:43 AM

Quote from: Cardinal
Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My   Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

I kind of understand what you are saying but I guess my physical mind seems to think physical. I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

  :cloud9: An analogy......If you look at an apple, there's the flesh of it, and if you go inside there's the seeds of it, right? But if you could "go" inside what the seed contains in the REAL heart of it, you'd find a tree. If you could take away the outer flesh, and the inner seeds and expose only the true "core" of it, ie. it's potential and origin,  and that was ALL you could see, THAT tree would be as "heaven".

Now did the apple or the seeds go anywhere to receive that tree that was contained in it? No, the tree was always there, but the progression of the time realm we are bound by (EXCEPT we walk in the Spirit), is all we have to be able to see the tree fully revealed. BUT: faith is, SEEING those things that are not, as though they were. What's elevated to be able to see the tree contained in it, is our perception, not our location.

It doesn't take much faith for us to imagine heaven "up there" somewhere, but it does take the God kind of faith to believe that heaven is in us, and ministers thru us. This is how we "loose" things in heaven (in us) into earth (this realm) to see the things of the Kingdom within us MANIFESTED openly. Christ in us is the hope of glory for this reason, and all glory belongs unto Him, and it gives Him glory when we manifest His kingdom attributes via the HG doing the works thru us. My  :2c: Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2010, 07:14:55 AM



It has been tried.
It doesn't work.

Genesis 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Not at that time. The Temple in Jerusalem was often described as a tower.

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 07:57:22 AM
Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

:cloud9: Sorry, thought I did answer it.......Christ IS heaven.......all things were made by Him and thru Him. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in us. God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Him. Christ is in us, God is in Christ. Blessings....

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 27, 2010, 08:19:56 PM
I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man.

Exactly. And in fact Christs "grave" is symbolic of Adam's journey away from paradise and way from a conscious connection with God's presence  (My God, why have you forsaken me?).

Jonah is full of this info. The "Son of Man" spending 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" speaks of the human race's descent into spiritual ignorance and death. 

Really - read Jonah's entire discourse from the belly of Sheol. Amazing.

"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fishes belly - so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 12:46:15 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 28, 2010, 11:23:31 PM
Job 35:5   
Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.


even the skies are named after the heavens, so that should be a clue as to their location.


Psalm 68:34 
Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.


Mark 14:62   
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


1 Thessalonians 4:17   
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It seems pretty conclusive that heaven is a place up above, even our instincts are inclined towards it, even an aethist looks up for inspiration.

:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Perfect post!

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 29, 2010, 01:37:41 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 27, 2010, 08:19:56 PM
I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man.

Exactly. And in fact Christs "grave" is symbolic of Adam's journey away from paradise and way from a conscious connection with God's presence  (My God, why have you forsaken me?).

Jonah is full of this info. The "Son of Man" spending 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" speaks of the human race's descent into spiritual ignorance and death. 

Really - read Jonah's entire discourse from the belly of Sheol. Amazing.

"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fishes belly - so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Interesting.  Jonah didn't 'die' in the belly of the fish, but he was cut off from God.

Why did Jesus use this comparison?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2010, 07:14:55 AM



It has been tried.
It doesn't work.

Genesis 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

why did God stop them ?

Because it's foundations are weak.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 29, 2010, 03:17:58 PM

Because it's foundations are weak.

Yes, its foundations are man.  It also remained unfinished.


Psalm 127:1
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it:...

Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2010, 02:45:51 AM

Quote from: MicahHowever, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

I know that Micah, as I pointed out in my first post.  No one ever said anything about the word 'oudeic.'

The three words are

ou mē   
eis
aiōn


I showed you where oume is a double negative.

Now what do you think it means that one is never, ever, going to die unto the age(s)?

The manifestation of the Sons of God.

Quote2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is talking future here


"AND to be present," and "IS to be present."  are two differnt things, not one and the same thing.  "TO BE" is future tense not present tense as in the same instance as death, but rather something that will happen after in the future--AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Paul knew that he would be resurrected from the dead in the future, not that he would be present with the Lord the instant that he died 

Paul does tell us when this happens:

Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.




Sounds to me--verse 1 is talking about when we die--isn't that when this earthly body/tabernacle is dissolved? at death?  And it says we have an eternal house in heaven prepared for us.


"eternal" [house]
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


If I was allowed to see that eternal house, it is a body like the one we have now, made of light.

Quote from: Micah
However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

I know that Micah, as I pointed out in my first post. No one ever said anything about the word 'oudeic.'

The three words are

ou mē
eis
aiōn


I showed you where oume is a double negative.

Now what do you think it means that one is never, ever, going to die unto the age(s)?


"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal [Gk: 'eonian'] life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
But has any saint since Pentecost actually been given eonian life without ever dying first? No. What saith the Scriptures: "For in Adam all die..." (I Cor. 15:22). What then is the only hope of ALL believers who die in Adam? Why the resurrection from the dead, of course. Pathetically and ironically, what most Christians consider a totally useless doctrine, Paul tells us is our only hope of ever living again after we die.
So do we enter eternal life upon death, as Christendom teaches? NO, let's read it:
"So also is the resurrection of the DEAD [notice please, that nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the LIVING, or of the resurrection of the BODY], it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body... the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [that would be Jesus] was made a quickening [living] SPIRIT" (I Cor. 15:42-46)
Now then, back to John 6 once more. Do all these Scriptures we just read in I Corinthians 15 (which totally contradict the "die and go to heaven" myth of Christendom) agree with what we were reading about "NOT DIE" and "by no means should be DYING FOR THE EON" in John 6:50 and 11:26? Absolutely.
There is a phrase in John 6 that Jesus repeats several times. A phrase that Christian theologians and preachers and teachers seem to be oblivious to, and yet, that phrase pin-points the exact time WHEN our "eonian life" will begin, and it agrees word for word with I Corinthians 15 and the rest of the Bible. Notice the verses of Scripture leading up to John 11:26 already discussed. What do the Scriptures tell us will happen "at the last day?" Verse 24 answers it
"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead. Next notice how Jesus answered her:
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in Me, though he were dead [Margin reads: 'may die'], yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [Gk: 'should by no means be dying for the eon]. Believe you this?" (Verses 25-26).
Now if everyone reading this in the King James does not see a blatant contradiction, then they must be blind. Notice what the King James says:
[1] If someone believes in Christ and then dies, yet shall he live, contradicts:
[2] If someone believes in Christ, he will never die.


L. Ray Smith  Lake of Fire      Installment XVI—HELL: Part C

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 29, 2010, 01:42:20 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 12:46:15 AM
:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Perfect post!

:cloud9: Uh, not really....... :mblush: glad you quoted me, I saw a mistake so re-worded it.......here is what I was TRYING to say, LOL......

:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave offering (as the firstfruits), AND the HEAVE offering (shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ) IN US, the two offerings together, a picture of the Head and the body. Gives new life to the scripture, "If I be LIFTED UP.....".

Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Either way you got it Cardnial :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 09:43:00 AM

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 07:57:22 AM
Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

:cloud9: Sorry, thought I did answer it.......Christ IS heaven.......all things were made by Him and thru Him. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in us. God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Him. Christ is in us, God is in Christ. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

Yes, all that is true spiritually BUT physically we are still here on earth, right?  Christ is in heaven with the Father, right?  After Christ was crucified he returned to the Father and the disciples saw him going UP. If heaven is his throne then that is where he is sitting, not on earth, but in heaven. I believe earth is just a small replica of heaven.

Sorry, I was just trying to figure out if you believed heaven existed. If I am understanding you correctly you believe Christ, the Father, and heaven exist in spirit only? They are not anywhere, just in us?

CHB

Quote from: Micah"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead

Martha has it wrong, Micah.  Because Jesus raises Lazarus from the death THAT DAY, for the glory of God.

Jesus keeps trying to explain to everyone what death is for Lazarus during this episode and no one gets it.   Does he end up weeping in frustration and sadness for the human inability to understand and the lack of faith?

We are sown in corruption--this body/temple we are living in now is corrupt--we are raised in incorruption, a temple made by God for eternal life.

We see Jesus in a body of light during the transfiguration, we see him in a body of flesh and bone that can also walk through walls and closed doors, after the resurrection. 

God has prepared a body for us--isn't Paul telling us we will be clothed in it at the death of this body?  These are the first fruits.  Others will be raised at the end of the age and the beginning of the millenium--these are the first ressurection.  The rest will wait until the end of the millenium to be raised.

Jesus tells them Lazarus is asleep--they don't understand that Jesus equates death with being asleep.  He is telling them he will raise Lazarus that day and they don't understand.

But, when Jesus returns, he comes with clouds--the great cloud of witnesses that Paul refers to--and those clouds are the saints, as we see in the transfiguration--Moses and Elijah are standing there with him and talking to him,  hundreds of years after they 'died' in the flesh.


13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

--Daniel 7

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 05:16:58 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 09:43:00 AM

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 07:57:22 AM
Hi Cardinal,

Sorry to bug you again but you didn't answer my questions so maybe it got lost in the other words I presented.  My question was, "where is Christ now"?

CHB

:cloud9: Sorry, thought I did answer it.......Christ IS heaven.......all things were made by Him and thru Him. He is seated at the right hand of the Father in us. God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Him. Christ is in us, God is in Christ. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

Yes, all that is true spiritually BUT physically we are still here on earth, right?  Christ is in heaven with the Father, right?  After Christ was crucified he returned to the Father and the disciples saw him going UP. If heaven is his throne then that is where he is sitting, not on earth, but in heaven. I believe earth is just a small replica of heaven.

Sorry, I was just trying to figure out if you believed heaven existed. If I am understanding you correctly you believe Christ, the Father, and heaven exist in spirit only? They are not anywhere, just in us?

CHB

:cloud9: It's so hard to put into words sometimes.......

What's in us, IS ALL THERE IS, but our carnal finite minds want to limit "all there is" to the IMAGINARY boundaries that this flesh body APPEARS to impose upon "all there is", and thereby make "all there is" appear that "all there is", is less than the whole, just by the virtue of "all there is" being in that flesh body. ALL the fullness of the Godhead was in Christ bodily, and THAT SAME FULLNESS we all have.

He had to appear to go up into the heaven they COULD see, as the pattern of the natural must reflect the spiritual. It has nothing to do with location, but everything to do with mirroring spiritual truth in the natural for a witness. Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2010, 05:21:59 PM

Quote from: Micah"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).
The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead

Martha has it wrong, Micah.  Because Jesus raises Lazarus from the death THAT DAY, for the glory of God.

Jesus keeps trying to explain to everyone what death is for Lazarus during this episode and no one gets it.   Does he end up weeping in frustration and sadness for the human inability to understand and the lack of faith?

We are sown in corruption--this body/temple we are living in now is corrupt--we are raised in incorruption, a temple made by God for eternal life.

We see Jesus in a body of light during the transfiguration, we see him in a body of flesh and bone that can also walk through walls and closed doors, after the resurrection. 

God has prepared a body for us--isn't Paul telling us we will be clothed in it at the death of this body?  These are the first fruits.  Others will be raised at the end of the age and the beginning of the millenium--these are the first ressurection.  The rest will wait until the end of the millenium to be raised.

Jesus tells them Lazarus is asleep--they don't understand that Jesus equates death with being asleep.  He is telling them he will raise Lazarus that day and they don't understand.

But, when Jesus returns, he comes with clouds--the great cloud of witnesses that Paul refers to--and those clouds are the saints, as we see in the transfiguration--Moses and Elijah are standing there with him and talking to him,  hundreds of years after they 'died' in the flesh.


13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

--Daniel 7

Wrong?

Yes, wrong lol.

She thinks her Lazarus is dead and gone.

Just like the disciples were wrong when they thought Lazarus was sleeping instead of dead.

No one figures out Jesus is going to raise Lazarus from the dead that day until he does it.

Lazurus was dead.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2010, 06:24:50 PM
Lazurus was dead.

Yes, he was dead--four days dead.

But he didn't have to wait until the 'last day' to be raised from the dead.

Jesus raised him from the dead that day.

 :cloud9: That's because Christ IS the last day, no part darkness.......and that "day" is in us, PTL.......

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 06:29:36 PM
:cloud9: That's because Christ IS the last day, no part darkness.......and that "day" is in us, PTL.......

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Lazurus died later on after that day dont you think?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2010, 06:34:07 PM
Lazurus died later on after that day dont you think?

His body, yes, because he was not yet given an incorruptible body.

But a body that is dead four days has already gone through a lot of decomposition, yet Jesus told us the man Lazarus was 'sleeping.'

Quote from: CHB on October 29, 2010, 02:01:43 AM
I have a question for you? Where is Christ now? I know he is in us spiritually. I know spiritually even we are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ but where would that be? Im speaking literally here.  Paul said to "set your mind on things ABOVE, not on tbings on the earth". If heaven is not a place above where God dwells why would Paul say to think on things above?

My understanding is, there are three heavens, the one where the clouds are, the one we call outer space, then the one where God is.

CHB

And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world.  I Cor. 15:19

You would think a book that deals mainly with death would be a bit clearer on what exactly happens  :laughing7:

I have a suspicion that many of the truths have been destroyed, so as to keep men, being confused and affraid about what exactly death is, and what exactly did christ save us from.

:2c:

Perhaps it does not speak concerning what happens to us in Death, because Death isn't the goal in the first place, it is just a temporary consequence of things.

The Bible is always pointing towards Life, Death is just an enemy along the way.

I know He saved me from myself.

 :cloud9: It actually does......it's just that it has to be received line upon line, then precept upon precept, so that fear is not strengthened before unconditional love is. My  :2c: Blessings....

Behold the Lord.

We are in your presence.

Today is the day.

Quote from: Lefein on October 29, 2010, 09:18:09 PM
Perhaps it does not speak concerning what happens to us in Death, because Death isn't the goal in the first place, it is just a temporary consequence of things.

The Bible is always pointing towards Life, Death is just an enemy along the way.

I meant the book deals with death, because it points towards life. But man in his fallen state is confused about what death means, for we have many interpretations that can be taken from the bible, some say death is physical, others spiritual, we have all kinds of testimonies that do not compliment each other. I guess the easiest thing to say is let's focus on Christ, but it would be great if we could say to unbelievers and to ourselves, this is what happens when you die, there is no need to fear.

and lately it has been on my mind that death means the death of the soul, that christ came to save our soul and only few that save it. But All spirits [men] are saved eventually.  :2c:

Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2010, 06:37:52 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2010, 06:34:07 PM
Lazurus died later on after that day dont you think?

His body, yes, because he was not yet given an incorruptible body.

But a body that is dead four days has already gone through a lot of decomposition, yet Jesus told us the man Lazarus was 'sleeping.'

Was Lazurus dead or not? If he was not dead, then Jesus did not do what he said right?

In that line of thought Thinktank, I think we might have a break through.   :thumbsup:

The soul of men, can be easily defined as his heart - mind, will, emotions, etc.  The Psyche, the Greek word for soul is Psyche afterall, and Psychology is the study of the soul, the mind-will-emotions of a person.

Upon reading your statement; Death of the soul, a whole flood of ideas came up.  Things like...

The Spirit is saved (as you said) but if the soul of a person is rotten, selfish, and wicked, it'll be burned away leaving barely anything left to take with him to the afterlife.  But if a soul has been cleaned, and purified, and made good by a walk with Christ in the land of the living (IE: being saved, and walking the straight and narrow walk) there is much more that is able to be taken with him to Heaven.

Perhaps this is one of the things that Christ was talking about when the Bible says that a man's works will go through the fire, and what isn't built on the foundation of righteousness (Christ) will burn away as stubble.

It'd also be quite a merciful thing too, as the old things will not be remembered - who in Heaven would want to remember (or carry the weight of) all of their wicked deeds?  Or keep all the junk in their souls?  I'd rather go to Heaven stark naked, and innocent...and be unashamed, than to go Heaven with wet fur coats riddled with guilt.

Perhaps they'll keep but fuzzy ashes, like fuzzy memories of evil that is just enough to know they don't want it ever again compared to Love.

"I recall...sort of, like a nightmare, or a dream that I was once a murderer...But that is just a dream now, and I have better things to attend to here."

And then at long last...even the ashes blow away...and one becomes so thoroughly content, their wills aligned in perfect harmony with God, that there is no thought of rebellion.

I think Thinktank, that you're on to something very special.  :boyheart:

If one has Chirst in them, then there is no fear of death.
The Bible is very plain on what happens when a living soul dies
Thats the only kind of soul there is (a living creature,) it returns to dust from which it came, and the spirit returns to the one who gave it.

It would seem to me that the soul is an important, and lasting factor to man's being.  Not something that merely returns to dust like waste.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMszhdPbB1o

I have no desire to have anything but the truth in my quiver, so I ask, if the first time a word is used in the Bible and its diffention given at that point, is that not the foundation to bulid the foundation on?  Now as time and mankind grow things change, but I have not found that what the Bible gives as the diffention has changed.
Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.

That as far as I know is the meaning of a soul. A body(dust of the ground, flesh) + breath of life(spirit)= a living soul. Without  body and spirit, there is no soul, living or otherwise. Or an this incorrect meaning?

 :cloud9: Man is a 3 part being, spirit, soul and body. If one of those goes back to the One who sent it, then that only leaves 2 that can die. He saves our soul to the uttermost (not a one time event, a progressional outworking of His Spirit within us), that we are not ashamed in the resurrection, because we are "unclothed".

The soul is the garment of the spirit that gets spotted by the flesh, ie. fleshly desires not in line with the Spirit. "She" is the lesser glory, meant to magnify the greater glory. God said that it is not good for man (spirit) to be alone, so He created him a helpmeet (soul). The soul is what gives the spirit visible expression. Jesus was the soul or heart of the Father, who is a Spirit, expressed.

The soul is made up of 4 parts: mind, will, emotions and desires. The desire of all nations (mankind) shall come, whether it be Christ or something else, He gives us over to our desires until we've had our fill of them and turn to Him in that area, which is when every knee bows the knee IN US. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Where in the Bible are these explainations and diffintions what a soul is?
And where in the Bible does it show man is a 3 part being?
Where in the Bible does it read that the soul is made up of 4 parts?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2010, 11:12:45 PM
I have no desire to have anything but the truth in my quiver, so I ask, if the first time a word is used in the Bible and its diffention given at that point, is that not the foundation to bulid the foundation on?  Now as time and mankind grow things change, but I have not found that what the Bible gives as the diffention has changed.
Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.

That as far as I know is the meaning of a soul. A body(dust of the ground, flesh) + breath of life(spirit)= a living soul. Without  body and spirit, there is no soul, living or otherwise. Or an this incorrect meaning?

A garment (dust-flesh-body) that has been animated by a sentient living being force (spirit-breath of God) will inevitably have a mind-will-emotions-psyche (soul).

But that doesn't mean the garment is the soul, because dust is dust, whether it is the elements that make up our body, or the elements that make up the rocks, or stars, or comets.  The Spirit is what makes that garment of elements "useful".  The Soul is connected more or less...to the Spirit, because it is sentience that produces the facets of the psyche, not elemental material.

A self-aware, living force, or being will have a soul by default, it doesn't matter if he dwells in a body made of dust, fire, or water.

A rock...doesn't have soul, and neither does my glass of koolaid.  Even if the rock is made of dust, or my koolaid is made of water.

QuoteWhere in the Bible are these explainations and diffintions what a soul is?

While I search...Do you have any better explanation for what it is?

As far as I can tell, it very possibly implies "Being", and as such a human being has emotions, will, desires, a mind, etc...These can only come out of sentience, Life - I cite logical reasoning, and common sense.

___

Lets look closer at the text you provided.

Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul. 

I'll include this verse;

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The facts are laid out like this;

God formed man of the dust of the ground.

God breathed his breath, his pneuma, his ruach into the man.  God is Spirit - God is Life, God is Sentient, God has a soul, God is a living being.

The man after the breath of life, God being breathed into him then became a living soul - a living being - a sentient being.

The man is made in God's image, and having become a living-being is now completed.

So from this I conclude that the "being" of a person is directly correlated, and derived from the Breath of Life - Spirit, rather than the dust.

Speculatively speaking; Therefore the dust will return to dust - but the spirit will go back to God, and the soul, or being that depends on the spirit will if it goes anywhere, go to back to God, not the dust.  Yet there is more for me to think about I am sure.

 :cloud9: Shared them when we discussed this before......they're in the words of the Word, and the scriptures like this one......

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJVA
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Strong's Number:   05315   
Original Word Word Origin
Xpn from (05314)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Nephesh TWOT - 1395a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
neh'-fesh    Noun Feminine 

Definition
soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
living being
living being (with life in the blood)
the man himself, self, person or individual
seat of the appetites
seat of emotions and passions
activity of mind
dubious
activity of the will
dubious
activity of the character
dubious 

God breathes "out", the spirit enters into the flesh and you are born of the flesh. God breathes "in", the spirit returns to the One who sent it, ie. you die.

When Adam was created
His "womb" was in his side,
But one day Father took it
And from it built his bride.

When man was first created
There were two sides to his nature;
One side: female – one side male...
Nothing lacking in his stature.

Then man was as an eunuch...
Satisfied to be alone,
For he felt no LACK WITHIN himself,
He was contented with his own.

Not once was Adam heard to say,
"I wish I had a mate,"
For he then was "as the angels"
As our Lord was heard to state.

It was God Who said, "I never planned
That man should live alone,
I'll build for him a help that's meet
Of his flesh and of his bone."

For in the beginning of creation
The Lord God said to man:
"I bless you; now be fruitful,
Multiply, and fill the land."

How can a man be fruitful
And reproduce his life?
Why, in this earth, he cannot
If he doesn't have a wife!

Male and female, two in one,
United through and through,
But by His Will He altered man
And out of one made two.

And this He did by causing man
To fall into a sleep
And while man slept, He took form him
A chamber from the deep.

The Word of God is powerful
As a sharp, two-edged sword
And by His Word divided He
The Spirit from the soul.

Then builded He the woman
According to His plan
And when the maid was finished
He brought her to the man.

Eve came forth from Adam
Knowing not from whence she came
But Adam knew she came from him
And so he gave her name.

And Adam called her Wo-man
Because she was taken out of man
And soon "his side" would be his bride
And mother of his clan.

The woman came forth as a babe
She had to learn from man
She did not hear from God "direct"
But she heard "second-hand."

So Adam tried to teach her
The things that God had said,
But without HIS revelation
It won't stay in your head...

The woman represents THE SOUL
That was taken out of man
The man the SPIRIT BEING Son
Who came forth by God's own Hand.

For the FIRST a Spirit
THEN he became "a soul"
And if you'll hearken to these words
The Truth will soon unfold.

The soul, outside the Spirit,
It easy to deceive
But the soul that's IN the Spirit
A lie will soon perceive.

So let our souls be subject
To the Spirit of the Lord
For if we do, we'll rule our flesh
And not lose our reward.

— Lora Huston

Lefein, I believe you almost have it.        Body(dust) + breath(spirit)= living soul(creature)                                                   
                                                         Body(dust) - spirit(breath) = death

Where in the Bible are these explainations and diffintions what a soul is? ??
And where in the Bible does it show man is a 3 part being? ??
Where in the Bible does it read that the soul is made up of 4 parts???

Nice poem.

I Thes. 5:23 I would have to use "being" "life" "breath" and may your spirit and being and body be preserved entire,
                                                               and may your spirit and breath and body be preserved entire,
                                                               and may your spirit and life and body be preserved entire,

SOUL is a living creature........ a living creature, does not HAVE a soul.

Perhaps there is a clue as to what a Nephesh (Soul) is in the word itself.

According to strongs; Nephesh comes from the root word Naphash

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05314

Psyche, the Greek word means;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5590

And comes from;

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5594

Another key note; while the soul/spirit/breath is the "Being" of an individual, however the correlation between the breath and being of a person may be in light of the dust of his body.

Mankind was never meant to be bodiless, being disembodied he may be alive (or dead), but he is not yet "complete as a being, though still a being" until he is embodied, whether in dust, or in glory.

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 12:49:44 AM
Another key note; while the soul/spirit/breath is the "Being" of an individual, however the correlation between the breath and being of a person may be in light of the dust of his body.

Mankind was never meant to be bodiless, being disembodied he may be alive (or dead), but he is not yet "complete as a being, though still a being" until he is embodied, whether in dust, or in glory.

All I know for sure is that the Bible defines the dust of the ground given the breath of life becomes a living soul. I know that (a) soul is a breathing creature H5315 nephesh.
Practiclally from the oncet of my Bible studies and reading I had been told that we/ man is made up of three parts..
body- soul- spirit. I taught it, I understood it, I believed it. Until about a month or two ago, I read Gen. 2:7 and there it was.
It did not read that dust of the ground when The Lord God breathed into it,  recieved a soul. I read that it became a living soul. I can answer no questions about the defintiion of a dead soul or what a soul was before Gen. 2:7
And then  there is  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Man did not recieve a soul.

I'd say that he could still be considered three parts.  Becoming, is still a form of receiving in a way.  If I become bruised, I have received a bruise.  If I become alive, I have received life.  If that makes sense.

Though of course, I do agree that the base idea of being "three separate parts" is a bit off. 

We have nerves, and a brain made up of nerves, and a nervous system, all contained in a body.  Now, the nerves in our spinal cord and tongue are different and categorisable as different from the nerves in the brain - but they are all one nervous system interlinked and connected, running the same electrical currents.  And the body of muscle, and skin is certainly not our nerves - but our nerves are integrated into the body, as it is into us.

A disembodied person is maimed, but alive (or dead), in the same way that a person whose nervous system is malfunctioning is maimed.  An embodied person is healthy and whole, as well as alive.

It is of my conclusion therefore, that we are indeed "three part", but the key point being that we are a multi-part integrated unit; The Individual.  Each part is important to that unit.  Including a body - whether it is dust, or glory.  Especially a soul, which comes from the root of it all - The Breath of Life, which animates the dust, and activates the soul in a similar way that a computer is made of metals and silicon (Dust), being connected to a power source (Breath) activates the programs, and applications (Soul) that makes it a functioning machine (Being); A living soul.

Then there is even the phrase itself;

"A Living Soul" - A soul (being) - that is alive (enbreathed with Life, and given sentience) - embodied in dust, disembodied in physical death and later to be embodied in glory.

We are spirit, soul, and body.

The body does not equal the soul.

Jesus gave his soul for us.

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 01:52:09 AM
We are spirit, soul, and body.

The body does not equal the soul.

Jesus gave his soul for us.

Where can that be found In the Bible?

The Greek word for SOUL is psuche, which means MIND. It is the root word from which we get all our English words dealing with the psychic, i.e. the human soul, the mind, the mental life. Psychoanalysis, psychology, psychiatry – all these words come from the same root – psuche. Proverbs 2:10 suggests that the soul needs knowledge. "Knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul." Note also Prov. 19:2 and 24:14. Since knowledge is a function of the mind, this shows that the mind is a part of the soul. All three of these verses from Proverbs tell us that we need to have knowledge in the soul. Then Ps. 139:14 says that the soul knows. "I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are Thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well." To know is something of the mind, which again shows that the mind is a part of the soul. Ps. 13:2 says the soul considers, or counsels, which refers to the mind. Lamentations 3:20 indicates that remembrance is of the soul. That is, the soul can remember things. From these verses we can see that there is a part in the soul that knows, considers, and remembers. This part is called the mind.

The second part of the soul is the will. Job 7:15 says the soul chooses. "So that my soul chooseth death rather than life." To choose something is a decision made by act of the will. This shows that the will is a part of the soul. Job 6:7 says the soul refuses. To choose and refuse are both functions of the will. I Chron. 22:19 says, "set your soul to seek." Just as we set our minds to think, so we set our souls to seek. This is, of course, the soul making a decision, which shows that the will is a part of the soul. Then in Numbers 30, "bind his soul" is mentioned ten times. When we read this chapter, we understand that to bind the soul is to make a decision. It deals with a vow that is made to the Lord. To make a decision to bind the soul is to make a vow to the Lord. Thus, it is demonstrated that the will is a part of the soul. In Ps. 27:12, 41:2, and Ezekiel 16:27 the Hebrew word for "soul" is translated "will." This again reveals that the will is a part of the soul.

The emotion is the third part of the soul. With the emotion there are many aspects: for example, love, hatred, grief, joy, peace, fear, etc. All of these are expressions of the emotion. References to the fact that the soul loves are found in I Sam. 18:1, S. of S. 1:7, and Ps. 42:1. These verses show that love is something of the soul, proving, therefore, that within the soul there is such an organ or function as the emotion. II Sam. 5:8 says, "Whosoever getteth up and smiteth the Jebusites that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief." This passage shows that hatred is something of the soul. See also Ps. 107:18 and Eze. 36:5. Since hatred is an expression of the emotion, these verses also prove that the emotion is a part of the soul. Joy, an element of the emotion, is also a part of the soul, as seen in Isa. 61:10 and Ps. 86:4. Then there is the matter of grief, mentioned in I Sam. 30:6 and Judges 10:16. Grief is another expression of the soul.

The fourth part of the soul is the desire. We read in I Sam. 20:4, "Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee." This verse shows that desire is found in the soul, making it a part of the soul. See also Deut. 14:26. This verse and many others show desire to be in the realm of the soul.

The affection is the fifth part of the soul. We read of Abraham's nephew, Lot, who, though he lived in Sodom, his heart affection was toward the Lord, and the record states, "For that righteous man dwelling among them, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds" (II Pet. 2:8). Lot vexed his righteous soul because his affection was not upon the things they were doing. From his prison cell in Rome the apostle Paul penned these immortal words, "Set your AFFECTION ON THINGS ABOVE, and not on things on the earth" (Col. 3:2). Hear now the inspired words of Jesus as He teaches His disciples, "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy SOUL... this is the first commandment" (Mk. 12:30). This quality of love – agape – means in the Greek "to have affection" (see Strong's Concordance). Thou shalt HAVE AFFECTION for the Lord thy God! What magnificent words these are, describing as they do the affection that we should have for the Lord with all our SOUL. This proves that affection is a function of the soul. 

On a day in the long ago an apostle by the name of Paul penned these telling words: "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent BEGUILED EVE through his subtilty, so YOUR MINDS should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (II Cor. 11:2-3). In this significant passage Eve in the garden of Eden is contrasted with two things: the bride of Christ and the mind. The mind is a function of the soul. The vision of the bride of Christ pervades the whole of scripture, from Eden onward, with ever-increasing clearness. Eve, the mother of the human race, is the first type of this great mystery. Let us not underestimate this remarkable woman from whom the whole human race has sprung!
— Eby

continuing:

Jesus said, "I lay down my life (Gr: soul) that I may take it again... I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again..." (Jn. 10:17-18). The word POWER used here literally means "the right, the privilege," while the word LIFE is psuche on the Greek, meaning the SOUL, the soul realm with its mind, will, emotion, desire, and affection.
Thus, to use Jesus' words, "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO LAY DOWN MY OWN SOUL-LIFE, die out to all the flesh appeal which would bring me into bondage to the world's system; and I HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE UP MY SOUL-LIFE IN A HIGHER SPHERE OF THE SPIRIT." The end of this is, "Not my will, but THINE be done" (Lk. 22:42).

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes30.htm

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 01:28:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 12:49:44 AM
Another key note; while the soul/spirit/breath is the "Being" of an individual, however the correlation between the breath and being of a person may be in light of the dust of his body.

Mankind was never meant to be bodiless, being disembodied he may be alive (or dead), but he is not yet "complete as a being, though still a being" until he is embodied, whether in dust, or in glory.

All I know for sure is that the Bible defines the dust of the ground given the breath of life becomes a living soul. I know that (a) soul is a breathing creature H5315 nephesh.
Practiclally from the oncet of my Bible studies and reading I had been told that we/ man is made up of three parts..
body- soul- spirit. I taught it, I understood it, I believed it. Until about a month or two ago, I read Gen. 2:7 and there it was.
It did not read that dust of the ground when The Lord God breathed into it,  recieved a soul. I read that it became a living soul. I can answer no questions about the defintiion of a dead soul or what a soul was before Gen. 2:7
And then  there is  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Man did not recieve a soul.

I received this revelation about a month ago and this is why I changed my thought to one of soul sleep to immortal spirit man, it might be a blessing to you.

Gnesis
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So man is a living soul, after the breath and dust. But what is this breath? is this breath the spirit of man?

Genesis 6

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

God here is saying that every living thing has his breath in it, even plants and animals. Animals are also called souls. So do you think that God would risk his life to save a mortal being?  A being that has breath of life, not much different from an animal or even a plant which also have his breath and God said he could make a man out of stone. So what's so special about man that makes God sacrifice his only begotten son?

The key is that Man is made in Gods image

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth [6] upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing [7] seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, [8] I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

On the sixth day God created man in his own image and then he rests on the 7th day.

So we have MAn in Gods image already exisiting, heavens and earth are finished, all animals, plant life, everyhting finished?

Exept for one thing, and this one thing is not began until day 8 or at least after day 7.

Genesis 2
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So you see that God has already produced the spirit of man on the 6th day but yet did not give man a physical body and soul until it was time to till the ground on day 8th. It could not be day 7 because God was resting.

So man = Spirit image of God male and female called he them Adam, + Breath of life(present in all flesh, electricity or power if you like) + Dust of the ground = living soul. So the question is what died in the garden of Eden? was it mans spirit or mans soul. If mans spirit did not die then it could mean that we continue to live in spirit after physical death, just as Samuel did, but he did not have a soul or body, which is raised at the last trumpet for those asleep in Christ, but for those who did not know him, they did not receive the promise as Hebrews says.

Samuel said "why have you disturbed me" A spirit without a soul, must be bored as they no longer have access to material things to enjoy, no love, no knowledge, so maybe those who die without christ are as Samuel they asleep with boredom. But those who have christ within, are filled with love for love is in them.


Not sure about the next part, but it makes sense
original spirit = male/female, so when God splits Eve[female] from Adams[male and female called Adam] spirit , they Adam and Eve cleave to one another as one flesh, for they are not only from the same flesh but also from the same spirit. So they cleave in flesh and also spirit for the natural mirrors the spiritual.

:2c:

Hmmn, I still feel for some reason that the spirit of a person, and their soul (mind) go together some how.

Sheol however, gives me pause...The Spirit goes back to God, and so we go to God the all consuming omnipresent fire.  But what of Sheol...

LIFE G5590 psuchē  From G5594; breath,G5594 psuchō A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently
SOUL  G5590 psuchē  From G5594; breath, G5594 psuchō A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently

SOUL H5315 nephesh  properly a breathing creature From H5314 to breathe
LIFE  H5315 nephesh  properly a breathing creature From H5314 to breathe 
ALIVE  H2416 chay  alive;

Strongs, "mentions mind" in all its meanings in both the Hebrew and the Greek. It does not say that the soul "is" the mind as Bro. Eby states. I contend that when the body/dust/flesh is entwined with the spirit/breath/life this becomes a living soul, a living soul then ignites the lusts and desires, the senses = the mind. The way I read and understand soul it is life, it is a breathing creature. As much as I love Bro. Eby's work and I have been reading his Echos for a while, I do no agree that man "has a soul" a soul is a living creature, the soul is the the living creature.
Job 7:15  So that my l(breath or life) chooseth strangling, Death, rather than these my bones!

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 05:00:39 AM
Hmmn, I still feel for some reason that the spirit of a person, and their soul (mind) go together some how.

Sheol however, gives me pause...The Spirit goes back to God, and so we go to God the all consuming omnipresent fire.  But what of Sheol...

I do not accept the thought that the "soul is the mind" I contend when the body and spirit become one we get a living soul from that combinaion the mind and all its attributes ignite and we have perhaps ego/self, and that, is susceptable to the wiles of the adversary.
Sheol is the grave, pit. Hades, hell grave pit the body returns to dust and the spirit to the one who gave it,when the time comes for the resurrection the state the living soul was in when death comes, that state, the Lord will bring back for the judgment. my  :2c:

Micah,
I've written to Preston in the past and he promptly wrote back.
A very kind and polite soul.
Give it a try and report back here, I'm very interested in what he would say.
Also, ask him to join the Tentmaker forum!

mind, will, emotion, desire — the 4 horns
and affection — the crown in the center — it is love — the two angels facing each other looking down on the crown — are us and jesus

 :cloud9: @ Beloved.....you read my mind, I was about to post this......  :laughing7:

All good, but personally I don't agree with 5 parts of the soul, nor that affection is a part independent of desire. Desire and affection are inter-related, for one, and two, desire covers the sheer essence of the soul itself. Eve desired the fruit.

What we are taught thru this flesh experience is to desire Him above all else, and that is setting our affection on that which is above. And reason number three, there are 4 horns on the altar, not 5. But he is the first person I've heard in 24 years who knew there were more than 3 parts, so it's all good, LOL.

The soul is the "record keeper" of the deeds done in the flesh body. A lot of the NDE's report having an experience of seeing their whole life flash before them in seconds, and for many, that's their first "introduction" to their own soul. My  :2c: Blessings....

PS. But the crown and the angels are not on the brazen altar, they're on the Ark mercy seat.

Micah, I am attempting to figure out the correlation between sentience, of which "mind" is an inevitable bi-product, and the nature of certain circumstances.

Samuel was raised up out of Sheol - he was shown to be a sentient being, who had a mind capable of conversation.  Yet he was disembodied, and it is from the spirit that the soul comes, not the dust.

The Spirit goes back to God, the body ceases to be animated and fulfills its aging process, decaying and becoming part of the elements from wence it came.  The soul however in the OT at least, went to Sheol - but the soul depends on the spirit to exist, because you cannot have a mind (rational faculties, maimed, distorted, whole, or otherwise; for example, the ability to converse) without sentience, and you can't have sentience without Life.

Samuel, a being pulled forth from Sheol, exhibited conversation, which means he had a mind, which means he was sentient, which means that somehow he was still by some means or another - "breathed/breathing" while being yet disembodied.

hmmn...things to ponder...

Perhaps it has something to do with God's omnipresence - even in Sheol God's presence is there...and so the soul is still emanating from the spirit (that is a finite spirit) that has indeed returned to God (The Spirit who is infinite), who is present in Sheol, as well as the land of the living, and Heaven.

PS.
I know where the crown is.

PSS.
I was thinking of you when I wrote it   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: .

PSSS.
That post is not of Preston, it's me.

 :cloud9: oh, ok.....my bad...... :icon_jokercolor:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 06:59:07 AM
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Mat 10:28  And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna!

 :cloud9: @ Lefein......yes you can have sentient thought without the life of the Spirit......some "life" is really death, as His comment about the dead burying the dead proved. To be carnally minded IS death. The soul without the headship of the Spirit IS dead; it's why we must be born from above. We exchange the womb-man of the soul, for the womb of the morning of our true mother, which is above. Like Mary was in the natural, we must have a chaste virgin womb for the Christ child to be birthed thru.

We've been conditioned to look at a dead body of flesh and say they died the moment IT stopped breathing, but in spiritual fact, they died from having the wrong "head" before the body ever followed suit. The principle is, the body can only do what it sees it's head do, (whatever head they have), which is why Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father do. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:04:33 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 06:59:07 AM
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Mat 10:28  And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna!

So killing the body does not mean you have killed the soul.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 30, 2010, 06:00:14 AM


Micah,
I've written to Preston in the past and he promptly wrote back.
A very kind and polite soul.
Give it a try and report back here, I'm very interested in what he would say.
Also, ask him to join the Tentmaker forum!

Perhaps I will, but as I have said Ive read Bro. Eby for 35 years and I know what he has taught, Ive brought this up on this here forum for the forum, to consider. But what you seem to do is give me Bro. Ebys' revelations rather than what you have been given to seek out. No one as of yet has been able to say that the deffinition of a soul is something other than what the Bible says it is in Gen.2:7 What I recieve is the evidence of someones teachings, the fact that the word soul is feminne is reason enough to know that soul  is a receiver rather than a giver (male.)
I would say the 5 parts are speaking o the 5 senses of the living soul.

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 07:12:19 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:04:33 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 06:59:07 AM
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Mat 10:28  And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna!

So killing the body does not mean you have killed the soul.

If I begin to believe that what you folks are seeming to say that the deffinition of a soul in Gen. 2:7 is wrong, that the soul is some thing I have in me that drives my desires and it is an enitiy of itself, then all the rest of my studying has been useless and a waste of time for the Bible's deffinition of something is in err so then the entire lump is in err?

Sometimes we just have to wait on the Lord's timing to open our eyes.
Maybe it's not His time yet to reveal it.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 6:23


...so that where I am, there you may be also.

--John 14:3

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 30, 2010, 07:32:25 AM

Sometimes we just have to wait on the Lord's timing to open our eyes.
Maybe it's not His time yet to reveal it.

I can only hope you meant that as a two way statement.

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 07:32:44 AM
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 6:23


...so that where I am, there you may be also.

Amen of a truth.

Of course, and I considered writing it differently but dismissed the idea.

 :cloud9: Male and female created He THEM, ie. they were BOTH, male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one vessel. Remember He called THEIR name Adam, and He created them BOTH male and female. It witnesses the fact there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus; not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.

The soul is a WITNESS. The creation is a witness to the Spirit of God; it reflects His glory and principles of the kingdom. Blessings....

The record states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL" (Gen. 2:7). Man did not come forth from the hand of God as a glorious shining spirit-being, neither did he begin his existence as the depraved, sensual, animalistic creature he is today. Man was created neither a beast nor a god, but a LIVING SOUL. The realm of perfect human life, the living soul, was a plane of life which far transcended the realm of corruption and death which passed upon man through the eating of the tree of knowledge. But is was also a plane of life which was than, and inferior to that glorious realm of DIVINE LIFE which was available to man in the tree of life. Thus, "all the trees of the garden" signify the realm of man as a perfect, sinless, LIVING SOUL. Adam, as a living soul, feasted upon the fruits of "all the trees of the garden." (Eby Echos#4)
Ecc 3:18  Said, I, in my heart, as concerning the sons of men, That God was minded to prove them,—and that they might see, that they were beasts, of themselves.
Psa 82:6  I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;

Quote from: Cardinal on October 30, 2010, 07:44:05 AM
:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM, ie. they were BOTH, male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one vessel. Remember He called THEIR name Adam, and He created them BOTH male and female. It witnesses the fact there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus; not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.
Amen!


The soul is a WITNESS. The creation is a witness to the Spirit of God; it reflects His glory and principles of the kingdom. Blessings....

I dont see where the soul is a witness.
There is no soul without the coupling of body and spirit, thats what I have seen.

Jesus tells his disciples--where I'm going you cannot come.  Well, why not?

Then he says he is going to prepare a place for them--is this the house which will clothe us referred to by Paul?  As we are now clothed in corruption, we need to be clothed in immortality?  We must 'put on' immortality, Paul tells us, like one puts on a cloak.

So something is surviving death, something that puts on immortality, that goes to where Jesus is, that inherits eternal life--what is that?  It is certainly not this body of corruption.

Then what is it, if not the soul?  Didn't Abraham live in tents waiting...

10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

--Heb 11

1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Amen, Abraham left Babylon.

Is it possible, that Soul and Spirit are the same thing, merely manifested through two mediums?

After all, both the words used for soul; nephesh, and psyche come from root words; Naphash, and Psucho - which both carry the concept of Breath, just as Ruach, and Pneuma are "Breath".

Soul - Spirit in terms of being a living agent or being.

Spirit - The direct reference to itself - Life.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:49:44 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 30, 2010, 07:44:05 AM
:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM, ie. they were BOTH, male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one vessel. Remember He called THEIR name Adam, and He created them BOTH male and female. It witnesses the fact there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus; not because there is either/or, but because there is BOTH.
Amen!


The soul is a WITNESS. The creation is a witness to the Spirit of God; it reflects His glory and principles of the kingdom. Blessings....

I dont see where the soul is a witness.
There is no soul without the coupling of body and spirit, thats what I have seen.

:cloud9: Adam/spirit/male/sun/greater glory.........Eve/soul/female/moon/lesser glory..........there are always two witnesses, by the law it took two witnesses to convict of anything, and so it was said in the NT, out of the mouth of TWO or more witnesses will every word be established. Blessings....

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:57:42 AM
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Micah, there is only one other place in the Bible where God breathes on man as he does with Adam, and that is when the glorified Christ breathes on his disciples.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 08:07:44 AM
Is it possible, that Soul and Spirit are the same thing, merely manifested through two mediums?

After all, both the words used for soul; nephesh, and psyche come from root words; Naphash, and Psucho - which both carry the concept of Breath, just as Ruach, and Pneuma are "Breath".

Soul - Spirit in terms of being a living agent or being.

Spirit - The direct reference to itself - Life.

:cloud9: You're getting warmer  :happygrin: The soul is as the letter of the Word........apart from the Spirit quickening it, it stays DEAD. Yet it has a lesser "form" of "life", a lesser glory. See it? Blessings....

PS. And not one jot or tittle of that "lesser" glory, the soul, shall pass away (as in anniliation at death of the body) till all be fullfilled (the Spirit quickens the living souls AND the "dead" ones). There is the foundation for UR.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2010, 11:12:45 PM
I have no desire to have anything but the truth in my quiver, so I ask, if the first time  a word is used in the Bible and its diffention given at that point, is that not the foundation to bulid the foundation on?

There are reasons to believe the Bible is not in the correct order, so what is "first"....?
Read reply #4 and #6 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/missing_chapter_3018.msg90549.html#msg90549)

The Bible reveals itself as new books are added. So why wouldn't that be so with word meanings? I think it's just manmade  :blah:
Example. I think many agree darkness/night stands also for evil/sin.
But in the creation account it's defined at having only relation to day and night. That was the first time the words where used.

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 08:10:55 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:57:42 AM
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Micah, there is only one other place in the Bible where God breathes on man as he does with Adam, and that is when the glorified Christ breathes on his disciples.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

breathed on them John 20:22
breathed in his nostrils Gen.2:7

Quote from: Cardinal on October 27, 2010, 07:00:28 PM
:cloud9: Kinda messes you up at first when you see that Christ is/was the Anointed One, doesn't it, Micah?   :winkgrin: Christ is the Seed that bears fruit after "it's" own kind, and "it's" own kind is the Father, and the Father is a SPIRIT.

He is the bread that came down from heaven, the LIFE of which, we drink. Unless a man eat of My flesh and drink of My blood, there is no life in Him. The life is in the blood. It was THIS blood that was taken into the Holy of Holies for us, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The Anointed One "died" in the same way God did; by pouring His life/blood out. God "died" by pouring Himself into His creation, the lesser glory. It's only lesser because it's visible, "denser", but has His attributes, His spiritual Truth embodied in it, because how can He truly be any less than what He is? Answer is, He can't.

Jesus the man, was the "creation" that the Word/Anointed One that is SPIRIT, poured Himself into to make flesh or visible. He's doing the same thing with us, one "creation" at a time. My  :2c: Blessings.....

God is SPIRIT not a Spirit

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 30, 2010, 08:47:17 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2010, 11:12:45 PM
I have no desire to have anything but the truth in my quiver, so I ask, if the first time  a word is used in the Bible and its diffention given at that point, is that not the foundation to bulid the foundation on?

There are reasons to believe the Bible is not in the correct order, so what is "first"....?
Read reply #4 and #6 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/missing_chapter_3018.msg90549.html#msg90549)

The Bible reveals itself as new books are added. So why wouldn't that be so with word meanings? I think it's just manmade  :blah:
Example. I think many agree darkness/night stands also for evil/sin.
Yes that is true
But in the creation account it's defined at having only relation to day and night. That was the first time the words where used.

Psa 139:12  Even darkness, will not conceal from thee,—but, night, like day, will shine, So is the darkness, as the light!

QuoteGod is SPIRIT not a Spirit

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. -KJV

Its the KJV, but it kinda makes a little point I guess.

Why can't God be both Spirit by being, and also a Spirit?

It isn't like God being "a" Spirit makes him any less God.  To be Spirit, is to be a Spirit, as to be Human is to be a Human.

Hebrew 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living. -CLV

I see the possibility for there being more than one spirit, in co-existence with God who is Spirit as well as a Spirit (as well as The Spirit).

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 09:26:18 AM

QuoteGod is SPIRIT not a Spirit

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. -KJV

Its the KJV, but it kinda makes a little point I guess.

Why can't God be both Spirit by being, and also a Spirit?

It isn't like God being "a" Spirit makes him any less God.  To be Spirit, is to be a Spirit, as to be Human is to be a Human.

Heb 12:9  Then, indeed, fathers of our flesh we have had, chastising us , and we were reverencing them ; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of the spirits, and live?

I added (what is now my explanation, though originally my continued argument) in the above post, probably just as you posted your reply.   :laughing7:

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 09:30:33 AM
I added (what is now my explanation, though originally my continued argument) in the above post, probably just as you posted your reply.   :laughing7:

Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

If I've learned anything of God, it is that he is always making one=many, and many=one...at the same time.  :happygrin:

Here is a comparative example;

One Jesus - One Body - Many members, made up of many bodies.

The Body of Christ (Jesus' physical body) The Body of Christ (The Ecclesia)

One God - One Spirit - Many spirits, made up of many..uh..spirits! ^^

"God who is Spirit" (God' individual I AMeous being)  "all of one spirit" (the spirits of whom God is the father of)

If that makes sense.

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 05:00:39 AM
Hmmn, I still feel for some reason that the spirit of a person, and their soul (mind) go together some how.

Sheol however, gives me pause...The Spirit goes back to God, and so we go to God the all consuming omnipresent fire.  But what of Sheol...

Which spirit though went back to God who gave it? Is is mans spirit as Stephen did when he got stoned or is is the breath of life that is given as a gift to ALL men including nonbelievers. It could be that the spirit within man remins in sheol until Christ returns for the resurection, for nothing unclean can access the heavens, Satan is cast out, also there is a scripture where a spirit man enters heaven and God is wondering , "how did he get in here with those rags, throw him out".

So is sheol a place where the spirit rests, waiting for the redemption of their body at the last trumpet. For no man has ascended into heaven yet according to Jesus.

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 09:26:18 AM

QuoteGod is SPIRIT not a Spirit

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. -KJV

Its the KJV, but it kinda makes a little point I guess.

Why can't God be both Spirit by being, and also a Spirit?

It isn't like God being "a" Spirit makes him any less God.  To be Spirit, is to be a Spirit, as to be Human is to be a Human.

Hebrew 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living. -CLV

I see the possibility for there being more than one spirit, in co-existence with God who is Spirit as well as a Spirit (as well as The Spirit).

Yeah there are many different types of spirit and they all proceed from the Father and holy spirit. E.g Christ spirit, Father spirit, Holy spirit, angels, men, seraphim, cherubim, breath of life spirit, substance spirit. Breath of life spirit is energy that animates living flesh, so that they become souls. Substance spirit is where all material things originate from, even this laptop orginated from substance spirit, an energy that can vibrate at different levels to produce different effects and when it denses it produces so and so material.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 09:12:57 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 08:10:55 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:57:42 AM
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Micah, there is only one other place in the Bible where God breathes on man as he does with Adam, and that is when the glorified Christ breathes on his disciples.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

breathed on them John 20:22
breathed in his nostrils Gen.2:7

And how do you think those disciples breathed in the Holy Spirit that Jesus breathed on them--through their mouth?

These are parrallel occurrences--the first man breathed into by God [living soul]; the second man breathed into by God [quickening spirit].

Is Paul, then, a quickening spirit, giving life through the Holy Spirit to those who read him? 

1 Corinthians 4:15
Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

 :cloud9: And He still does the same things today, since He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. One time I was sent into a Christian bookstore to give the owner a word and while I was praying for her, He told me to breathe on her. He has never done this with me before or since, but when I did as told, she was slain in the Spirit. I wasn't shocked, as I know from experience if He tells me to do something, He intends to follow thru on it or He wouldn't have told me, but I was AMAZED.

He is in us, and He wants to manifest Himself. Getting past the idea that He's just "there" in us, "inanimate and dormant", seems to be the hard part. He is alive, and His body should be showing signs of life, too. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 09:45:26 AM
If I've learned anything of God, it is that he is always making one=many, and many=one...at the same time.  :happygrin:

Here is a comparative example;

One Jesus - One Body - Many members, made up of many bodies.

The Body of Christ (Jesus' physical body) The Body of Christ (The Ecclesia)

One God - One Spirit - Many spirits, made up of many..uh..spirits! ^^

"God who is Spirit" (God' individual I AMeous being)  "all of one spirit" (the spirits of whom God is the father of)

If that makes sense.

Yes

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 30, 2010, 07:59:18 AM
Amen, Abraham left Babylon.

Yes Abrahan did, and I believe that a good part of the friends on this forum have left Babylon, but sometimes we find that not all the green trees have been taken down. My  :2c:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:02:51 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 30, 2010, 07:59:18 AM
Amen, Abraham left Babylon.

Yes Abrahan did, and I believe that a good part of the friends on this forum have left Babylon, but sometimes we find that not all the green trees have been taken down. My  :2c:

Psalm 104:16
The trees of the LORD are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.

Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2010, 07:06:20 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:02:51 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 30, 2010, 07:59:18 AM
Amen, Abraham left Babylon.

Yes Abrahan did, and I believe that a good part of the friends on this forum have left Babylon, but sometimes we find that not all the green trees have been taken down. My  :2c:

Psalm 104:16
The trees of the LORD are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.

I believe I wrote green trees, there is a difference.

Since just about everyone in this post believes that soul and spirit are the same I will not speak more of it, the book I reference from is somewhat not up to date with the debate. So I will dust off the original queery and if you all dont mind try it again:
This may soung like a strange question, I found it odd at first myself, but here you go.

When did Christ die?

Peace and Love Through Jesus.

I'd say, you're correct with your original idea that he died upon putting off immortality, and taking on the body of mortal dust.

And now to describe poetically... ^^

Through Mary's womb, Christ took on an "Adamite" body and so he took on conditions that go with it and dying he died.  Not through his own sin, but through the sins of others who killed him. 

He took on their sins, and so took on their curse - taking on Death itself, and overwhelming it, three days later rising again.

He also by their sin, was murdered, and so died.

I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

A man is dead, dying, and will die.

Jesus took on this nature, to put away with it.

So, basically he was both dead, and dying, and died.

The answer to your question is "All of it".  Atleast that is my answer given what information I have knowledge of at the present moment.

Quote from: Lefein on October 28, 2010, 07:56:38 PM
That begs the question then...

Do we Christians go to Sheol?

I think Yes.
I know some verse that states that we shall not die is often quoted.
But what if that verse is about the Second Death?
1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Jesus became the first fruits of the dead. Not of the living.
:dontknow:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:09:50 PM

Quote
Psalm 104:16
The trees of the LORD are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.

I believe I wrote green trees, there is a difference.

Just a little fun fact; the inner part of the Temple complex was also called the Lebanon. Maybe it was build from the trees of the Psalm  :mshock:

 :cloud9: The cedars of Lebanon also speak of His righteousness which saves. Cedar is a aromatic, upright, insect resistant wood. Blessings.....

What has Lebanon and cedars got to do with this?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:38:06 PM
I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 04:53:06 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 29, 2010, 01:42:20 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 29, 2010, 12:46:15 AM
:cloud9:  You ever notice in Jude that clouds are described as people? If you put off the flesh right now, you would find your spirit is in heaven, just as Jesus said basically to Nicodemus, I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Heaven means literally something heaved up like a mountain. CHRIST IS that mountain, He is the wave and the HEAVE offering, the firstfruits and the body (wave offering/shoulder/place of bearing the Ark/mind of Christ). Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being, of being IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Perfect post!

:cloud9: Uh, not really....... :mblush:

Don't contradict me!!!  :grin: Not perfect in all technical details - perfect in it's defining Heaven as  "IN CHRIST. If you walk in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, YOU'RE IN HEAVEN."  :thumbsup:

Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 02:25:48 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:38:06 PM
I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

Then He simly failed

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 01:28:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 30, 2010, 12:49:44 AM
Another key note; while the soul/spirit/breath is the "Being" of an individual, however the correlation between the breath and being of a person may be in light of the dust of his body.

Mankind was never meant to be bodiless, being disembodied he may be alive (or dead), but he is not yet "complete as a being, though still a being" until he is embodied, whether in dust, or in glory.

All I know for sure is that the Bible defines the dust of the ground given the breath of life becomes a living soul. I know that (a) soul is a breathing creature H5315 nephesh.
Practiclally from the oncet of my Bible studies and reading I had been told that we/ man is made up of three parts..
body- soul- spirit. I taught it, I understood it, I believed it. Until about a month or two ago, I read Gen. 2:7 and there it was.
It did not read that dust of the ground when The Lord God breathed into it,  recieved a soul. I read that it became a living soul. I can answer no questions about the defintiion of a dead soul or what a soul was before Gen. 2:7
And then  there is  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Man did not recieve a soul.

Micah - this has been my understanding from the beginning. Also we have "the dust returns to the ground as it was and the spirit returns to God who gave it". (Ecclesiastes 12:7) but, of course, mainstream Christianity loses it's theological soul in this case so (of course) it's rejected.

Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2010, 02:31:30 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 29, 2010, 01:37:41 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 27, 2010, 08:19:56 PM
I have come to accept that Christ died when he came down from His realm of immortality and was incarnate in man.

Exactly. And in fact Christs "grave" is symbolic of Adam's journey away from paradise and way from a conscious connection with God's presence  (My God, why have you forsaken me?).

Jonah is full of this info. The "Son of Man" spending 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" speaks of the human race's descent into spiritual ignorance and death. 

Really - read Jonah's entire discourse from the belly of Sheol. Amazing.

"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fishes belly - so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"

Interesting.  Jonah didn't 'die' in the belly of the fish, but he was cut off from God.

Why did Jesus use this comparison?

It's all symbolic. Jesus represents all mankind. When Jonah says "all thy waves and thy billows have gone over me" that speaks of all God's "wrath". Adam's expulsion from paradise and the resulting subjection to vanity/futility/death etc. = "the wrath of God".

Jesus' crucifixion and death shows the picture: The crown of thorns speaks of mankind's emotional anguish, pierced hands speaks of futile/evil works, pierced feet = walk of evil/crooked paths, broken heart (obvious) these all symbolize mankind outside the garden enduring the wrath of God (AKA: the expulsion from paradise). "My Father, why have you forsaken me?"  - same thing. Jonah mirrors this "I am cast out of your sight" and the term Jesus used is "son of man" (offspring of Adam).

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:47:08 AM
The record states: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL" (Gen. 2:7). Man did not come forth from the hand of God as a glorious shining spirit-being, neither did he begin his existence as the depraved, sensual, animalistic creature he is today. Man was created neither a beast nor a god, but a LIVING SOUL. The realm of perfect human life, the living soul, was a plane of life which far transcended the realm of corruption and death which passed upon man through the eating of the tree of knowledge. But is was also a plane of life which was than, and inferior to that glorious realm of DIVINE LIFE which was available to man in the tree of life. Thus, "all the trees of the garden" signify the realm of man as a perfect, sinless, LIVING SOUL. Adam, as a living soul, feasted upon the fruits of "all the trees of the garden." (Eby Echos#4)
Ecc 3:18  Said, I, in my heart, as concerning the sons of men, That God was minded to prove them,—and that they might see, that they were beasts, of themselves.
Psa 82:6  I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;

Also - in the punishment phase we see "For dust you are and to dust you will return" which doesn't fit with the 3rd party theory either. A more accurate statement (from the 3rd party standpoint) would have been "For your body is dust, so I'm sending it back to the dust, and the other part of you which is not by breath, well, I'll deal with that part later"  :Sparkletooth:

When I talk about Jesus in regards to the curse, and dying he died; I speak of his act of taking on that curse.

If I had to describe it in any way, I'd say it like...Jesus did not have the curse/disease in his bones, but he took the curse/disease and grafted it onto his skin, so that when his body died - it too would die, and be burned away as dross, leaving nothing but a resurrected, glorified body devoid of anything not of the spirit - (which is also The Real Reality of things; hence physical, but taintless, limitless, glorious, spiritual, of God).

I agree we can exist in "heavenly places", i.e., walk by the Spirit, live in the Spirit in this life.  But I believe there's also more/more to come.  Apostle Paul was looking forward to abandoning this tent of flesh, "to be present with the Lord".

If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.  I Corinthians 15:19

The Holy Spirit "in us" is said to be a down payment of what is to come.  If it is a down payment, and the blessings of God include the physical, tangible - then it would seem to me that if all of this that we have through Christ in this life is just a down payment, the full sale price is something to literally die for.  :laughing7:

 :bigGrin:  For me to live is Christ, for me to die is gain.

Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

Not to worry my friend, that is one thing I have grown to accept.  Praise the Lord

Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2010, 03:50:36 AM
Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2010, 09:36:37 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2010, 03:50:36 AM
Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

Matthew 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

I myself find this subject blurry, this thing about the soul.  Gen. 2:7 a soul that is living [breathing creature] is derfined, as far as I can find that is the meaning and diffinitiion of what a soul is. In the appendix of the Rotherham Emp. Bible on the soul he writes that up until Esther 8:11 the writer attempted to keep the the soul in a uniform manner as the OT. It reads that the Jews were permitted " to stand for their soul," (nephesh) this example proved to be the turning of the scale and "life"was promptedly substituted." He writes, "It certainly may be worth enquiry, how it comes about that the scared originals so freely use a concrete word where we sorely feel our of employing our abstract term "life;"
Est 8:11 By these letters the king granted the Jews who were in every place, city by city, the right to assemble and to stand up for their souls,.." (CLV)
11 The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; (Holman Bible)(NIV)
11 in which the king granted the Yehudim who were in every city to gather themselves together,(Heb. Names Ver.)

From what can tell by changing the word soul to life, theology began to refer to "a soul" as "the soul, or your soul, my soul"
I find that by simply changing the word as I read Psa 16:10  For thou wilt not abandon my "life or breath" to hades,
I understand as well, know that a soul is a person/mankind/human being.....a soul.  One more   Rom 2:9  tribulation and anguish—against every life/breath of man who worketh out what is base, both of Jew first and of Greek,

I dont know if this will help or not the understanding of "soul". 
I also believe that with that change of "soul to life" in the translations, that is how there seems to be so much confusion when people speak of "soul and spirit" as though they were the same. It is the spirit that brought the dust to be a living soul.   Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2010, 09:36:37 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2010, 03:50:36 AM
Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

:cloud9: Exactly....

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 02:42:15 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 02:25:48 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:38:06 PM
I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

Then He simly failed

Why would he fail if he was the perfect sacrifice?

He said on the cross "it is finished"

He took the curse upon himself on the cross and by his stripes, not during his earthly life. We discussed this before on another thread, some said he was cursed through his whole life, wihle others said he was carrying the effects of the curse at particular moments, such as the garden when he sweated blood.

But  those who said he was cursed al his life can a flawed vessel heal people and perform miracles?

So to me he was only carrying the crse at certain points in his life, such as when he got whipped, by his stripes we are healed, has an element of where our healing is paid for when he got whipped.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:12:46 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on October 31, 2010, 09:36:37 AM

Quote from: jabcat on October 31, 2010, 03:50:36 AM
Sorry micah, we're off-track.

quote micah - "when did Christ die?"

But - how can the question be answered without defining the soul?

:cloud9: Exactly....

Just did, and have many times, there was no soul that I have read about accept the living soul of Gen. 2:7 which was made of the dust of the gorund and breathed into by the Lord God. Man is a living soul, a breathing creature. Without a body and without the breath(spirit) there is NO SOUL. Man was not given a soul. Man does not have a soul. Soul is feminne. Whoever is reading this is a soul.

In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 05:28:18 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 02:42:15 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 02:25:48 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2010, 07:38:06 PM
I dont think it is a matter of being correct, He took on a body Gen 2:17 "... --dying thou dost die.'"
Did he not or was dying?

I don't think Jesus was part of this Curse, I think he was very similar to Adam before he fell, as the scriptures says "the first Adam is of the earth earthy, but the second Adam is the lord from heaven"

So something about being the lord form heaven makes him exempt from that curse. How could a cursed body redeem a cursed body? So to me he is sinless the perfect sacrifice, without spot or blemish free from the curse of the law, maybe because against love there is no law, and God is love.

Then He simly failed

Why would he fail if he was the perfect sacrifice?

He said on the cross "it is finished"

He took the curse upon himself on the cross and by his stripes, not during his earthly life. We discussed this before on another thread, some said he was cursed through his whole life, wihle others said he was carrying the effects of the curse at particular moments, such as the garden when he sweated blood.

But  those who said he was cursed al his life can a flawed vessel heal people and perform miracles?

So to me he was only carrying the crse at certain points in his life, such as when he got whipped, by his stripes we are healed, has an element of where our healing is paid for when he got whipped.

He came in a body of flesh, in the likeness of sinfull flesh. Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

I suppose it would be safe to conclude that a soul can (and indeed does) exist without a vessel (body) then?

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

All I have asked is where in the Bible is there another diffinition or meaning of a soul other than Gen. 2:7. I know what man has come to understand as soul, but it does not line up with what the Word reads. And I believe it makes a difference starting from our understanding in Gen. 2 and 3 and onward.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

Please explain, and could you use the meaning of what a soul is from the Bible. Thank you.
Image is a "shade; phantom" and I do believe we are speaking of Gen.1:26 the man...male and female..of the spiritual man still in the process of being made, are we not?

My issue is not in addressing what a soul is specifically.  I myself seem to believe it implies the adjective of Being, and is the cover-all noun for such a trait.

My issue is that I believe (and now with very reasonable assurance) that the soul is linked to the spirit, not the body.  And that you can indeed have a soul without the body.

"Spirit/Life + Dust/Body = Soul/Being" is not entirely correct from what I see.

"Spirit/Life produces Soul/Being; which can manifest through/indwell in Dust/Body"

Man was formed from the dust in the ground, he did not become a living being, or soul until specifically the breath of life, spirit, his spirit or His spirit even was put in him.  The spirit is the key, not the body.

"The computer didn't become active until the electric current was introduced"  Interestingly enough, a computer's code (the programs which make it a computer, not a hunk of junk) binary 10101's are nothing more than electric current running through metal and silicon chips.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:41:26 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

I suppose it would be safe to conclude that a soul can (and indeed does) exist without a vessel (body) then?

Have you noticed there is a lot of talk about being naked in the Bible, starting with Adam and Eve after they eat from the tree and find themselves naked and ashamed?

I think that nakedness refers to the soul which has been separated from Spirit--[or in its default state]--which Spirit provides a covering, hence the idea of wearing a robe [prodigal son], a coat of many colors [Joseph], and, finally, the covering of the blood of Christ and putting on immortality like a cloak.  Kings wear robes which cover their nakedness.  The soul without such a covering stands naked [and condemned] before God.

  Is it my imagination or are all these threads converging? :laughing7:


17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

--Rev 3

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:41:26 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

I suppose it would be safe to conclude that a soul can (and indeed does) exist without a vessel (body) then?

:cloud9: Yes, it does. It's what goes into "Sheol" at the death of the body. Jesus saying there is neither male nor female in heaven because there are BOTH, is again, a affirmation of UR, because the soul is feminine, the "wife" of the spirit. The spirit returns to the One that sent it, but because we are reproved with our OWN WICKEDNESS, whatever the soul did not overcome thru Christ while still in the body, keeps it "weighed down", ie. the weight of sin/missing the mark, the mark is the MIND (soul) of Christ.

So for Him to say that male and female are one in heaven, is speaking of the resurrection of the SOUL to join the spirit. It is not good for Adam (spirit) to be alone. And THIS is what it means by, what GOD hath joined together let no man put assunder. What He speaks, He gets, and He is not going to let ANY MAN, stay divided, for He is what makes us WHOLE, ONE NEW MAN = He called THEIR name, Adam.

It is not a permanent situation for the soul, but is as the fire of purifying where every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I know this because I experienced it, and THEN He gave me understanding in the Word of what had happened. And it was NOT thru a NDE; He took me there.  :mshock: I know it's a slight "divergence" from the mainstream here, but I'm accountable for what I know. Blessings.....

Where does he say there is no gender in Heaven/New Creation?

Quote from: CardinalYes, it does. It's what goes into "Sheol" at the death of the body.

I'm not going anywhere without my covering.  :icon_king:


Psalm 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 05:57:12 PM
Have you noticed there is a lot of talk about being naked in the Bible, starting with Adam and Eve after they eat from the tree and find themselves naked and ashamed?

I think that nakedness refers to the soul which has been separated from Spirit--[or in its default state]--which Spirit provides a covering, hence the idea of wearing a robe [prodigal son], a coat of many colors [Joseph], and, finally, the covering of the blood of Christ and putting on immortality like a cloak.  Kings wear robes which cover their nakedness.  The soul without such a covering stands naked [and condemned] before God.

  Is it my imagination or are all these threads converging? :laughing7:


17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

--Rev 3

:cloud9: Exactly......His ultimate plan is in Jeremiah, ie. where a WOMAN shall cover a man. The souls of male and female, cleansed in the blood (of circumcision) joined as one ("woman") who becomes His robe. Where two (or more) of you are GATHERED IN MY NAME/NATURE, there I AM, IN THE MIDST OF YOU. These are the SONS of God.

And that "or more" in that verse, that we always took to mean it could be 3 people, ect.? That's not it. It's referring to 2 or more COMPLETED sons, because only two in union are truly GATHERED (purpose of feast of Tabernacles, also called feast of INGATHERING) in His name/nature, as He defines it. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:50:48 PM
My issue is not in addressing what a soul is specifically.  I myself seem to believe it implies the adjective of Being, and is the cover-all noun for such a trait.

My issue is that I believe (and now with very reasonable assurance) that the soul is linked to the spirit, not the body.  And that you can indeed have a soul without the body.

"Spirit/Life + Dust/Body = Soul/Being" is not entirely correct from what I see.

"Spirit/Life produces Soul/Being; which can manifest through/indwell in Dust/Body"

Man was formed from the dust in the ground, he did not become a living being, or soul until specifically the breath of life, spirit, his spirit or His spirit even was put in him.  The spirit is the key, not the body.

"The computer didn't become active until the electric current was introduced"  Interestingly enough, a computer's code (the programs which make it a computer, not a hunk of junk) binary 10101's are nothing more than electric current running through metal and silicon chips.  :thumbsup:

Okay Gen. 2: 7 is in error.

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 06:10:34 PM

Quote from: CardinalYes, it does. It's what goes into "Sheol" at the death of the body.

I'm not going anywhere without my covering.  :icon_king:


Psalm 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

:cloud9: And that's the whole point......David said, though I make my bed in hell, there You are. He will never leave us or forsake us. He SAVES us to the uttermost, spirit, soul and finally body. Lot of wisdom hidden in that phrase "make my bed". My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 06:07:19 PM
Where does he say there is no gender in Heaven/New Creation?

This implies it.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Lefein, not to worry, I have no doubt that He will give you all the desires of your heart.  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 06:10:52 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 05:57:12 PM
Have you noticed there is a lot of talk about being naked in the Bible, starting with Adam and Eve after they eat from the tree and find themselves naked and ashamed?

I think that nakedness refers to the soul which has been separated from Spirit--[or in its default state]--which Spirit provides a covering, hence the idea of wearing a robe [prodigal son], a coat of many colors [Joseph], and, finally, the covering of the blood of Christ and putting on immortality like a cloak.  Kings wear robes which cover their nakedness.  The soul without such a covering stands naked [and condemned] before God.

  Is it my imagination or are all these threads converging? :laughing7:


17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

--Rev 3

:cloud9: Exactly......His ultimate plan is in Jeremiah, ie. where a WOMAN shall cover a man. The souls of male and female, cleansed in the blood (of circumcision) joined as one ("woman") who becomes His robe. Where two (or more) of you are GATHERED IN MY NAME/NATURE, there I AM, IN THE MIDST OF YOU. These are the SONS of God.

And that "or more" in that verse, that we always took to mean it could be 3 people, ect.? That's not it. It's referring to 2 or more COMPLETED sons, because only two in union are truly GATHERED (purpose of feast of Tabernacles, also called feast of INGATHERING) in His name/nature, as He defines it. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Cardinal, can you explain this in more detail?  The scripture or more clues to the scripture also? Thanks.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 06:07:19 PM
Where does he say there is no gender in Heaven/New Creation?

They are as the angels of heaven. It seems we can change into any form that takes our fancy, whether male or female gentile or greek. But we may retain our soulish identity, just as Christ retained is soulish identity i.e
Thomas feels the hole in his hands. If we change into another form we may, lose our sense of self or ego of the soul temporary. So I think that one has to choose to be similar to our earthly identity and experience heaven from that perspective and ask your wife to do the same.

e.g in heaven we would all be expert dart players, but I think if we retain our soulish identity we can retain our useless dart playing skills, so that in heaven we can experience the joy of the perceived idea that our darts playing is improving over time, when in reality one could be an expert darts player in an instant, in heaven.

QuoteOkay Gen. 2: 7 is in error.

...No its not.  Don't be silly.

If I make a water bottle, it doesn't become a water bottle (in any practical sense) until I put water in it.  Though I declare that it is a water bottle while it is still empty of water, and know what it is having designed it for that purpose - it becomes a water bottle upon receiving water.  Water is the key to it being a water bottle, not the material that I have made it out of.  The material, the bottle itself is irrelevant, because I could carry the water in a multitude of vessels, from bags, to bowls, to a gourd freshly picked.  But even then, it is not the water's bottle that concerns me, the bottle is just a vessel to carry the water.  It is the water that I am after, a water bottle is useless to me without water in it - but water without the water bottle can still be drank by other means, and carried in other vessels that suit my purpose.

The soul is not dependent on a body to be a soul, it is dependent on the spirit from which it comes from.  The body is a vessel that carries it.

Lev 26:11  And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Zechariah 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Nephesh is used in all of these verses.

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Psyche is used in all of these verses.

A living soul is a living being who has a living mind who is living because of the Breath of Life; the body is a means by which this is able to manifest in a practical sense, but is not dependent on the body to be.  The spirit of life however, is absolutely necessary in order to live.

___ ___ ___

QuoteThis implies it.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Lefein, not to worry, I have no doubt that He will give you all the desires of your heart.  :Sparkletooth:

Marriage is a law issue, not a love issue, especially during the time of The Law and culture that Jesus lived in; daughters didn't fall in love and elope like Romeo and Juliet, they were given to a man as rewards, as currency, as domestic property; whether she loved the man or not, she had to accept her fate, and if the man was ugly...but paid the bride price, she was stuck with him, there was no divorce nor alternative.  Marriages are instituted through vows, covenants, and conditions.  But the relationship between a man, and woman in the bounds of marriage is produced out of love, and expressed in fidelity (a virtue of the heart, not law).

Today, marriage is usually instituted (in The West) by love, or lust.  But the relationship comes first before marriage.

The angels have no need of The Law, being perfect.  Neither shall we.  Angels are not said to be genderless, merely that they are perfect.

This was my given revelation on the matter anyway.

And as far as the resurrection goes; Christ remains male even in glory.  He kept his gender identity.

A better look at naked from Genesis.
NAKED Gen. 2:25  H6174  ‛ârôm  ‛ârôm From H6191 (in its original sense); nude, either partially or totally: - naked

H6191 ‛âram A primitive root; properly to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derived sense (through the idea perhaps of smoothness) bo be cunning (usually in a bad sense): -
X very, beware, take crafty [counsel], be prudent, deal subtilly.

This revelation of Adam put man in the postion of what we read in Gen. 3 His "awakened knowledge" was acute, man had a mind(woman/feminne) that was now dual from (Gen. 2:16), but not yet ignited, but the serpent/devil=traducer, accuser began "dia" louge with the woman/feminne) and she SAW (Gen.3:6) the woman(mind) female is able to recieve and birth.
Man and woman were both "living souls" were they not. There is not mention of soul here, save for what man has interprted to be the soul.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:59:41 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:41:26 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

I suppose it would be safe to conclude that a soul can (and indeed does) exist without a vessel (body) then?

:cloud9: Yes, it does. It's what goes into "Sheol" at the death of the body. Jesus saying there is neither male nor female in heaven because there are BOTH, is again, a affirmation of UR, because the soul is feminine, the "wife" of the spirit. The spirit returns to the One that sent it, but because we are reproved with our OWN WICKEDNESS, whatever the soul did not overcome thru Christ while still in the body, keeps it "weighed down", ie. the weight of sin/missing the mark, the mark is the MIND (soul) of Christ.

So for Him to say that male and female are one in heaven, is speaking of the resurrection of the SOUL to join the spirit. It is not good for Adam (spirit) to be alone. And THIS is what it means by, what GOD hath joined together let no man put assunder. What He speaks, He gets, and He is not going to let ANY MAN, stay divided, for He is what makes us WHOLE, ONE NEW MAN = He called THEIR name, Adam.

It is not a permanent situation for the soul, but is as the fire of purifying where every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I know this because I experienced it, and THEN He gave me understanding in the Word of what had happened. And it was NOT thru a NDE; He took me there.  :mshock: I know it's a slight "divergence" from the mainstream here, but I'm accountable for what I know. Blessings.....

I guess the problem I have with this if you don't mind me saying I hope, is that it implies that God created an inperfect creation, a creation that was not whole from the begining, even before Adam sinned.
It seems to imply, if I read it correctly that we the soul [eve], fell from Adam [Christ] and so we now need to rejoin as one in the resurection.
I guess im reading it from a chronological time frame account of Genesis- perhaps you are meaning to use that analogy and apply it to a different time, sitation  :dontknow:.

Lefein, I hope this will help.

It is  true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.  L.. Ray Smith

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 06:20:45 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 06:10:52 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 05:57:12 PM
Have you noticed there is a lot of talk about being naked in the Bible, starting with Adam and Eve after they eat from the tree and find themselves naked and ashamed?

I think that nakedness refers to the soul which has been separated from Spirit--[or in its default state]--which Spirit provides a covering, hence the idea of wearing a robe [prodigal son], a coat of many colors [Joseph], and, finally, the covering of the blood of Christ and putting on immortality like a cloak.  Kings wear robes which cover their nakedness.  The soul without such a covering stands naked [and condemned] before God.

  Is it my imagination or are all these threads converging? :laughing7:


17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

--Rev 3

:cloud9: Exactly......His ultimate plan is in Jeremiah, ie. where a WOMAN shall cover a man. The souls of male and female, cleansed in the blood (of circumcision) joined as one ("woman") who becomes His robe. Where two (or more) of you are GATHERED IN MY NAME/NATURE, there I AM, IN THE MIDST OF YOU. These are the SONS of God.

And that "or more" in that verse, that we always took to mean it could be 3 people, ect.? That's not it. It's referring to 2 or more COMPLETED sons, because only two in union are truly GATHERED (purpose of feast of Tabernacles, also called feast of INGATHERING) in His name/nature, as He defines it. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Cardinal, can you explain this in more detail?  The scripture or more clues to the scripture also? Thanks.

  :cloud9: Going to have to get off here for awhile soon, but read Song of Solomon with this understanding above. This precept is hidden all thru the Word, as to what He is doing with spirit and soul, male and female. Blessings....

QuoteWithout the spirit there is NO SOUL.

This is accurate.

QuoteWithout the body there is NO SOUL.

This is not.  God in the Old Testament (and even according to a few...weird people's doctrines concerning the New) did not have a body, yet he expresses the soul.

QuoteTake a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.  L.. Ray Smith

Yet, the Bible shows with all due clearness that the soul's existence (whether a separate entity or not) is not dependent on a body, but is acutely dependent on a spirit.

It exists, as shown by the omnipresent God himself (who is above all else, Spirit) of whom we are made in his image.

Man was never meant to be bodiless, but his being as a living soul is not dependent on said body - only Spirit.  The body for all intents and purposes, is a matter of practical option, and identity.  A vessel.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 06:46:03 PM
Lefein, I hope this will help.

It is  true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.  L.. Ray Smith

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 06:54:24 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 06:46:03 PM
Lefein, I hope this will help.

It is  true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.  L.. Ray Smith

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

As I have tried to show before the word soul can just as well read, " the dividing assunder of life/being/ and spirit."

No its not.  Don't be silly.

If I make a water bottle, it doesn't become a water bottle (in any practical sense) until I put water in it.  Though I declare that it is a water bottle while it is still empty of water, and know what it is having designed it for that purpose - it becomes a water bottle upon receiving water.  Water is the key to it being a water bottle, not the material that I have made it out of.  The material, the bottle itself is irrelevant, because I could carry the water in a multitude of vessels, from bags, to bowls, to a gourd freshly picked.  But even then, it is not the water's bottle that concerns me, the bottle is just a vessel to carry the water.  It is the water that I am after, a water bottle is useless to me without water in it - but water without the water bottle can still be drank by other means, and carried in other vessels that suit my purpose.

The soul is not dependent on a body to be a soul, it is dependent on the spirit from which it comes from.  The body is a vessel that carries it.

Lev 26:11  And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Zechariah 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Nephesh is used in all of these verses.

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Psyche is used in all of these verses.

A living soul is a living being who has a living mind who is living because of the Breath of Life; the body is a means by which this is able to manifest in a practical sense, but is not dependent on the body to be.  The spirit of life however, is absolutely necessary in order to live.


Can a soul live without a body? isnt that the spirit of a man that lives within him.

Are we made of soul, spirit, body

Soul= mind, ego Spirit ( can it exist without the body?)=man  Made in Gods image ( exists without body it  seems ghosts)

So the question is are we 2 ghosts, one ghost is the spirit, the part that returns to God or remains in the underworld as Samuel was, the other ghost being the soul, where all our memories and emotions are stored (scientists cannot find memory part for the brain) can a soul live? Or does the soul only live when it becomes part of the body hence man become a living soul. Hmm I think that the confusion here is that people call the spirit man within them a soul. I am not talking about Christ within I am talking about a man made in Christs image a reflection of him, but not him, lives within each of us, and this part died (not literally, but died to God) and become evil when Adam ate the tree of good and evil, but we as christians receive Christ, his blood not only restores this image, we had in Adam, but also gives us the holy spirit to live within our temple (inner part our spirit, outer part our soul/body. I believe that Adam did not have the holy spirit to help him as we do and that's one reaon why he failed the test of Gods commandment.
I'm still not clear on what a soul is though, for God has a soul, is Gods soul his personal being in heaven who sits on a throne, I think that might be it.

 knowing this may not matter much to some
   but to others as I it does  matter
   Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin
  our soul is the very seat of emotions , peace , joy , pain ,hate  etc  hunger , thirst  ,  by  feeling / knowing  loss or gain  of it , the soul ,   love being the best one to  display but hard to describe
Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

  Jesus gave them riches of HIS  soul and Spirit   and Body  to us ,  His joy  to be full and His peace and His  love and His faith  ,and righteousness   that we would some how become complete in Him by faith  it is the grace of God 

hunger and thrist after righteouness shall be filled in Him  ...

Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
  my faith it says  above my joy , my  peace 

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.   His offering and sacrifice without Him we are nothing and  do nothing of ourselves

One point I would like to bring is that IMO the soul cannot express itself without a body/vessel of some sort.
If being soulish is to be attached to the soil, to the needs of the body over the needs of the spirit, then Micah would be right and a human being would need both a spirit AND a body to be complete.
Else, why the need for a new non-corrupted and immortal body, let's all be just spirits and souls?

QuoteCan a soul live without a body? isnt that the spirit of a man that lives within him.

We should remember that there is a difference between physical death, and Death - absence of life.

A person who is separated from God in his soul is for all intents and purposes a walking dead man.  A man can live in a house (body), if that house is destroyed the house is dead, and the man is homeless (physical death), but he is still alive in the animated sense, but dead in the sense of his being separated from God who is Life.

However, if the person is not separated from God in his soul, then it doesn't matter if he is homeless or not, because he is Alive in the truest sense of the word, having Life, even if he is without a home.

QuoteAre we made of soul, spirit, body

I believe we are a Spirit, who expresses soul/being, who dwells in a body.

QuoteSoul= mind, ego Spirit ( can it exist without the body?)=man  Made in Gods image ( exists without body it  seems ghosts)

Ghosts are a possibility, if such things exist indeed.  With Hell now but fable and myth...we are left with possibilities to consider.

QuoteSo the question is are we 2 ghosts, one ghost is the spirit, the part that returns to God or remains in the underworld as Samuel was, the other ghost being the soul, where all our memories and emotions are stored (scientists cannot find memory part for the brain) can a soul live? Or does the soul only live when it becomes part of the body hence man become a living soul. Hmm I think that the confusion here is that people call the spirit man within them a soul. I am not talking about Christ within I am talking about a man made in Christs image a reflection of him, but not him, lives within each of us, and this part died (not literally, but died to God) and become evil when Adam ate the tree of good and evil, but we as christians receive Christ, his blood not only restores this image, we had in Adam, but also gives us the holy spirit to live within our temple (inner part our spirit, outer part our soul/body. I believe that Adam did not have the holy spirit to help him as we do and that's one reaon why he failed the test of Gods commandment.
I'm still not clear on what a soul is though, for God has a soul, is Gods soul his personal being in heaven who sits on a throne, I think that might be it.

It is important to remember several things.

First, the spirit returns to God, but God is omnipresent and is even in Sheol, where the soul (atleast in the Old Testament) lingers.

A soul's existence is dependent on the spirit's existence.  You cannot run a computer program without electricity, and it is the electric currents which make up the program.  The binary code used in all computer programs - are electrical currents, the same electrical currents which "give life" to the machine.

Electric to power --> Electric to express a program --> the program you see on your screen: 

The same electricity that powers the program, is the same electricity that is the code that makes up a program.  Like your internet browser, it is nothing more than the electricity that powers your computer being shaped into code that allows you to surf the web.

Spirit to make alive --> Spirit to express a soul/being --> a living being that you see through the body:

The spirit I believe works on a similar principle to how electricity is the Being of a computer program, as well as what powers it.

QuoteElse, why the need for a new non-corrupted and immortal body, let's all be just spirits and souls?

Because man was never meant to be bodiless.  It is a part of God's artistic expression perhaps, to have indwelt the Beauty that is Man, in a vessel to express it.

Gold is beautiful, not because it is an element, but because Beauty expresses itself through that element.  But even if the gold did not exist, Beauty would still exist.

Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2010, 06:37:41 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:59:41 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:41:26 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
In the Old Testament God has a soul/is a soul (he talks about stuff hurting his soul)...he didn't have a body of dust in the Old Testament.

:cloud9: Yes He does, and we were made in His image.

I suppose it would be safe to conclude that a soul can (and indeed does) exist without a vessel (body) then?

:cloud9: Yes, it does. It's what goes into "Sheol" at the death of the body. Jesus saying there is neither male nor female in heaven because there are BOTH, is again, a affirmation of UR, because the soul is feminine, the "wife" of the spirit. The spirit returns to the One that sent it, but because we are reproved with our OWN WICKEDNESS, whatever the soul did not overcome thru Christ while still in the body, keeps it "weighed down", ie. the weight of sin/missing the mark, the mark is the MIND (soul) of Christ.

So for Him to say that male and female are one in heaven, is speaking of the resurrection of the SOUL to join the spirit. It is not good for Adam (spirit) to be alone. And THIS is what it means by, what GOD hath joined together let no man put assunder. What He speaks, He gets, and He is not going to let ANY MAN, stay divided, for He is what makes us WHOLE, ONE NEW MAN = He called THEIR name, Adam.

It is not a permanent situation for the soul, but is as the fire of purifying where every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I know this because I experienced it, and THEN He gave me understanding in the Word of what had happened. And it was NOT thru a NDE; He took me there.  :mshock: I know it's a slight "divergence" from the mainstream here, but I'm accountable for what I know. Blessings.....

I guess the problem I have with this if you don't mind me saying I hope, is that it implies that God created an inperfect creation, a creation that was not whole from the begining, even before Adam sinned.
It seems to imply, if I read it correctly that we the soul [eve], fell from Adam [Christ] and so we now need to rejoin as one in the resurection.
I guess im reading it from a chronological time frame account of Genesis- perhaps you are meaning to use that analogy and apply it to a different time, sitation  :dontknow:.

:cloud9: Of course He did. If the creation was not "imperfect", we would have no need of Christ. He knew a divided HOUSE could not stand. He divided Eve (as darkness) from Adam (as light), the same pattern as when He divided the waters FROM the waters earlier. He created us with a "Christ-sized wound". Do you think He was taken by surprise that Eve ate the fruit?

A day is 12 hours of darkness and 12 hours of light, in the first 6 days. Note that the darkness was listed first in Genesis. He builds the house first before He inhabits it. What man builds a house without first counting the cost? In the natural, the womb must exist for the seed to be planted in it.

Saying there is no soul, is the same as saying there is no darkness. In the 7th day, it says only light. It's not light because there was no darkness, it's light because the darkness was swallowed/covered up. Love COVERS a multitude of sins. The Ark of Covenant COVERED the tablets of the law. When uncovered, the law brought death to those who removed the mercy seat. Blessings....

Quote from: rosered on October 31, 2010, 07:07:41 PM
knowing this may not matter much to some
   but to others as I it does  matter
   Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin
  our soul is the very seat of emotions , peace , joy , pain ,hate  etc  hunger , thirst  ,  by  feeling / knowing  loss or gain  of it , the soul ,   love being the best one to  display but hard to describe
Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

  Jesus gave them riches of HIS  soul and Spirit   and Body  to us ,  His joy  to be full and His peace and His  love and His faith  ,and righteousness   that we would some how become complete in Him by faith  it is the grace of God 

hunger and thrist after righteouness shall be filled in Him  ...

Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
  my faith it says  above my joy , my  peace 

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.   His offering and sacrifice without Him we are nothing and  do nothing of ourselves

wow  :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Amen, Rosie...... :thumbsup:

"Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin" Rosered  Jesus life was the sacrfice for sin.

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
                Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his life an offering for sin.

The word "soul" is not an enitiy of itself. A soul, person, human being has the 5 senses that ignite the lusts and desires that begin in the mind of a soul, person, human being. It really is not difficult to stop seeing that a soul does not drive mans appetites.
Jas 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
             but each soul is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The teaching that man has a soul is orthodox theology which began through mistranslation by man. If Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible. Man can take mans understanding and build doctrines that man will build on and understand, but that dont make it correct.

Quote from: MicahIf Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible.

What's the definition?  Clay plus the breath of God?

What about Eve?  She was made from Adam's rib.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

--Phil 1

Of course He did. If the creation was not "imperfect", we would have no need of Christ. He knew a divided HOUSE could not stand. He divided Eve (as darkness) from Adam (as light), the same pattern as when He divided the waters FROM the waters earlier. He created us with a "Christ-sized wound". Do you think He was taken by surprise that Eve ate the fruit?

A day is 12 hours of darkness and 12 hours of light, in the first 6 days. Note that the darkness was listed first in Genesis. He builds the house first before He inhabits it. What man builds a house without first counting the cost? In the natural, the womb must exist for the seed to be planted in it.

Saying there is no soul, is the same as saying there is no darkness. In the 7th day, it says only light. It's not light because there was no darkness, it's light because the darkness was swallowed/covered up. Love COVERS a multitude of sins. The Ark of Covenant COVERED the tablets of the law. When uncovered, the law brought death to those who removed the mercy seat. Blessings....


I think I know where your coming from now, in that Adam is not the same as Eve. Adam was made in Gods image and was close to God, but Eve was made from Adam and was further away from God( A third copy if you like of Christ, a bit distorted), and thats why the serpent tempted her, because she did not have enough of God in her to resist temptation but then again Adam failed the temptation of the woman, but perhaps because the temptation of the woman was much harder to resist than the temptation of the serpent!.

The temptation of the serpent was sparkly jewellery (Apple) but the temptation of the woman, was Adam living life without Eve (love).  :msealed:

Satan turns everything upsidedown and backwards.

Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created human in God's image, in the image of God, God created human; God created them, multiple humans male and female in God's image.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:24:46 PM
"Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin" Rosered  Jesus life was the sacrfice for sin.

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
                Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his life an offering for sin.

The word "soul" is not an enitiy of itself. A soul, person, human being has the 5 senses that ignite the lusts and desires that begin in the mind of a soul, person, human being. It really is not difficult to stop seeing that a soul does not drive mans appetites.
Jas 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
             but each soul is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The teaching that man has a soul is orthodox theology which began through mistranslation by man. If Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible. Man can take mans understanding and build doctrines that man will build on and understand, but that dont make it correct.

Yes  Micah    His Life  breath complete = is Body Soul and Spirit

   the soul determines our purpose

  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? /life

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?/life

  Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

  I do beg to differ on that about the soul / life  not being what drives us 
  being



  Blessings

  the way this box   jumps around all over the place makes it impossible to post!

 :cloud9: Eve is the stony heart (middle/rib made of calcium) of Adam, his soul. We all have an "Eve" to deal with. He took her out of him to show him what was in his heart. The same principle as when He took the Israelites out into the wilderness to show them what was in THEIR hearts. Those SEVEN nations they had to overcome are all aspects of the darkness of our own souls.

Seven means fullness, but the fullness can be of darkness too, ie. "perfect or complete" darkness. This is why there is NO SIN that is not common to man, because all of it is in his heart. The difference is, when it comes to the REALLY bad ones, some give those things of darkness "life" or expression, and some do not. Blessings....

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:24:46 PM
"Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin" Rosered  Jesus life was the sacrfice for sin.

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
                Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his life an offering for sin.

The word "soul" is not an enitiy of itself. A soul, person, human being has the 5 senses that ignite the lusts and desires that begin in the mind of a soul, person, human being. It really is not difficult to stop seeing that a soul does not drive mans appetites.
Jas 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
             but each soul is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The teaching that man has a soul is orthodox theology which began through mistranslation by man. If Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible. Man can take mans understanding and build doctrines that man will build on and understand, but that dont make it correct.

I think you have the corect definition of what a soul is. I think the problem is that people say that when God created man in his own image, they tend to use the word "soul".
They say man is a soul within a body and mind
But the scriptures say man is a spirit in Gods image, placed inside a body of dust {dust] and spirit [breath] or water and blood
Then he becomes a living soul. A dead soul lies within sheol, do not leave my soul in hell, cried the psalmist.
But the spirit continues to live for it is made in Gods image, it cannot die. Those who are washed clean can enter heaven, but those who are not need to be cleansed, ndeers say that their spirit cannot go to a certain place in heaven, they are barred, just like the cherubim barred Adam from entering the garden of eden.
:2c:

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 07:41:14 PM
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created human in God's image, in the image of God, God created human; God created them, multiple humans male and female in God's image.

:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM. THEIR name was Adam (Adam named her Eve, not God), and Adam was/is both male and female in one, spirit and soul in one, as God proved by taking her from him. That is the PATTERN, just as Jesus and His body are male and female, ie. we are His bride. Blessings.....

 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own life?

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
Life, our living, as a soul/person does drive us. Our ego(self) is driven by the desires of the senses.

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 07:27:53 PM

Quote from: MicahIf Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible.

What's the definition?  Clay plus the breath of God? = a living soul (Gen. 2:7)


What about Eve?  She was made from Adam's rib. woman was taken out of man(flesh) Gen. 2:21-23

I do not believe, nor do I see that Adam was for all intents and purposes; a hermaphrodite.

We need to be careful not to attribute unnecessary amounts of esoteric meaning to the plain truth of God, and his creations.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 07:56:14 PM
I do not believe, nor do I see that Adam was for all intents and purposes; a hermaphrodite.

Read it in the Bible my friend Gen. 1:27, but I dont really like the term you used even if it is medically correct.

Quote from: rosered on October 31, 2010, 07:41:52 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:24:46 PM
"Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin" Rosered  Jesus life was the sacrfice for sin.

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
                Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his life an offering for sin.

The word "soul" is not an enitiy of itself. A soul, person, human being has the 5 senses that ignite the lusts and desires that begin in the mind of a soul, person, human being. It really is not difficult to stop seeing that a soul does not drive mans appetites.
Jas 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
             but each soul is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The teaching that man has a soul is orthodox theology which began through mistranslation by man. If Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible. Man can take mans understanding and build doctrines that man will build on and understand, but that dont make it correct.

Yes  Micah    His Life  breath complete = is Body Soul and Spirit

   the soul determines our purpose

  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? /life

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?/life

  Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

  I do beg to differ on that about the soul / life  not being what drives us 
  being



  Blessings

  the way this box   jumps around all over the place makes it impossible to post!

You have that correct. :thumbsup:

CLV Gn 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:50:42 PM
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own life?

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
Life, our living, as a soul/person does drive us. Our ego(self) is driven by the desires of the senses.

  I agree , but does that not what Jesus Christ come to change /our egos and save us from ?
  pride of life/soul  is what causes us to miss the mark  in the first place ?

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



the tree to make one wise and pleasent to the eyes  of percieving


lust when concived Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 08:01:25 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 31, 2010, 07:41:52 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:24:46 PM
"Jesus soul was the sacrifice for sin" Rosered  Jesus life was the sacrfice for sin.

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
                Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his life an offering for sin.

The word "soul" is not an enitiy of itself. A soul, person, human being has the 5 senses that ignite the lusts and desires that begin in the mind of a soul, person, human being. It really is not difficult to stop seeing that a soul does not drive mans appetites.
Jas 1:14  but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
             but each soul is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.

The teaching that man has a soul is orthodox theology which began through mistranslation by man. If Gen. 2:7 is not the diffinition of what a soul is then I dont know how to understand the Bible. Man can take mans understanding and build doctrines that man will build on and understand, but that dont make it correct.

Yes  Micah    His Life  breath complete = is Body Soul and Spirit

   the soul determines our purpose

  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? /life

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?/life

  Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

  I do beg to differ on that about the soul / life  not being what drives us 
  being



  Blessings

  the way this box   jumps around all over the place makes it impossible to post!

You have that correct. :thumbsup:

the jumping all over the place too ? ha ha ha !  its so annoying lol , its one reason I do not post  here much  ... sorry :(

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 08:01:36 PM
CLV Gn 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

He created male-male and female and He created female-female and male. That what it reads does it not.

Quote from: rosered on October 31, 2010, 08:04:46 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:50:42 PM
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own life?

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
Life, our living, as a soul/person does drive us. Our ego(self) is driven by the desires of the senses.

  I agree , but does that not what Jesus Christ come to change /our egos and save us from ?
  pride of life/soul  is what causes us to miss the mark  in the first place ?

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



the tree to make one wise and pleasent to the eyes  of percieving


lust when concived Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is not the living soul/human being/man/person, the vessel, from which the desires and lusts emit from when the self/ego is tempted?  The "soul" being tempted is the vessel, the vessel is the soul...there IS NO SOUL IN A vessel.

 :cloud9: @ Rosie.....try clicking on the icon at the top of your browser that looks like a "torn" page outlined in green. It might help......I downloaded Google Chrome and it seems to have helped as it was doing that with me, too.

  Thanks Card... I will try that , looking for it ...  :laughing7:  i do not see any torn page on my brower page  Card  that is green or any color ????

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 08:28:04 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 31, 2010, 08:04:46 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 07:50:42 PM
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own life?

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
Life, our living, as a soul/person does drive us. Our ego(self) is driven by the desires of the senses.

  I agree , but does that not what Jesus Christ come to change /our egos and save us from ?
  pride of life/soul  is what causes us to miss the mark  in the first place ?

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



the tree to make one wise and pleasent to the eyes  of percieving

26 "But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all.

27 What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!

28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[j]

lust when concived Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is not the living soul/human being/man/person, the vessel, from which the desires and lusts emit from when the self/ego is tempted?  The "soul" being tempted is the vessel, the vessel is the soul...there IS NO SOUL IN vessel.

we have a different way of seeing things Micah
  and am not sure what you mean   the vessel  has no soul but ,,the soul  is the vessel? to me the vessel is the  body of earth , the soul or life is what is tempted by  our own lusts from the ego or self 
  Christ centered  or self centered  , its the course or path to death or life in Christ

matt10 26 "But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all.


27 What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!

28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

   to be made miserable with no hope at all being empty
  thats what best describes my thoughts on this ..

No.  It reads He made humanity, and he made two genders that constitute the human species; male, and female.

Why over complicate simplicity?

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 07:48:41 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 07:41:14 PM
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created human in God's image, in the image of God, God created human; God created them, multiple humans male and female in God's image.

:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM. THEIR name was Adam (Adam named her Eve, not God), and Adam was/is both male and female in one, spirit and soul in one, as God proved by taking her from him. That is the PATTERN, just as Jesus and His body are male and female, ie. we are His bride. Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 07:48:41 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 07:41:14 PM
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created human in God's image, in the image of God, God created human; God created them, multiple humans male and female in God's image.

:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM. THEIR name was Adam (Adam named her Eve, not God), and Adam was/is both male and female in one, spirit and soul in one, as God proved by taking her from him. That is the PATTERN, just as Jesus and His body are male and female, ie. we are His bride. Blessings.....

So do you mean that when Adam ate of the tree he became a soul also?

Because by your definition, if Eve = soul and Adam = Christ, what become of Adam? How can Adam Christ fall?

To me I think there is something to what your saying, but I'm not yet seeing the puzzle fit together properly.

I see that your idea of restoration is different to mine, I think thats the problem. I tend to belive that the glory we have now is far greater than what Adam had, that we have the privelage of God living inside us, whereas Adam was only a portrait of Christ a replica of him, (I think you belive that Adam was made perfect in Christ), but we not only are a restored portrait of Adam but we have far more,we  have His will living within us, his very being in us, I don't believe Adam had Christ living within him.
so we in my opinion have a far greater glory than Adam ever had, for we have been given the privelage of having the holy spirit living within us crying abba father.

 :cloud9: Adam was created both male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one. He was divided; she was taken out of his side. The side of Christ was pierced for "her", ie. the souls of men, to come under again, AS A COVERING, because Adam was not and could never be, a PERFECT covering for the soul of man. It's a picture of salvation, the salvation of the soul. God knew the soul could not stand without the spirit being IN UNION; a divided house cannot stand.

What obscures this, is the tendency for man to look at the flesh, and so seeing males and females after the flesh in the natural realm of experience, assumes that is what He meant when He said "male and female created He THEM", but are missing the fact THERE WAS NO FLESH YET, because there was no fall yet. Yet Adam, was both male and female. Blessings....

Cardinal, I think you are getting far to into the esoteric interpretations of what should be plainly seen before you.

I don't see how your interpretations are correct in light of observable evidence from the Bible.  Men are not souless, and women are not spiritless.  Both have both/are both, what ever you want to determine from that perspective, point is that soul, and spirit are in the identity of both genders, they are not exclusive pieces.

The flesh (carnal selfishness) is not the same as a body.  We'll have a physical body in the resurrection, that doesn't mean that it is carnal.  Adam had a body from day one as far as I can see, a body of the dust of the ground, the same dust that will return to the ground from whence it came that you, and I currently wear, and that Christ himself wore on the Earth.

Adam was not a hermaphrodite, he was a he, and Eve was pulled from his side, in effect a female clone; she was not Adam's soul, she was his physical flesh, and bones; At last flesh from my flesh, bone of my bones!  No mention of the soul is made.

There might be a parable present in your interpretations, but it is perhaps...just that, a parable, rather than the literal truth of the matter.  In my opinion at any rate.

 :cloud9: And where did I say that men were soul-less or women spirit-less??? I have been repeatedly saying THEY have BOTH, a spirit and a soul. It's clear you are not understanding me. Adam being the first, was a "prototype" of a deeper truth.

As for the "esoteric"; it's called, revelation. Google the acronymn PARDES for a definition of how the scriptures were understood to be approached. Blessings....

Tell me again then...so I do understand.

Was Adam a hermaphrodite?  Why do you call Eve his soul?  And if Eve is his soul, where is Adam's soul?  I'll say this, part of the reason I am not understanding you is due most likely to the whole esoteric puzzle you're presenting.

It is growing overwhelmingly complicated (in my eyes) with every new, revelation.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 09:25:00 PM
Tell me again then...so I do understand.

Was Adam a hermaphrodite?  Why do you call Eve his soul?  And if Eve is his soul, where is Adam's soul?  I'll say this, part of the reason I am not understanding you is due most likely to the whole esoteric puzzle you're presenting.

It is growing overwhelmingly complicated (in my eyes) with every new, revelation.

Think of it as metaphor.  Not to say Adam and Eve weren't real, they were, but it can also be looked at as a teaching tool because of the many parallels between Jesus and Adam and us and Eve, and also soul and spirit.

The metaphor I can understand, and even to some limit big or small agree with.  It is the literal idea of his hermaphrodism that causes contention.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 09:05:41 PM
:cloud9: Adam was created both male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one. He was divided; she was taken out of his side. The side of Christ was pierced for "her", ie. the souls of men, to come under again, AS A COVERING, because Adam was not and could never be, a PERFECT covering for the soul of man. It's a picture of salvation, the salvation of the soul. God knew the soul could not stand without the spirit being IN UNION; a divided house cannot stand.

What obscures this, is the tendency for man to look at the flesh, and so seeing males and females after the flesh in the natural realm of experience, assumes that is what He meant when He said "male and female created He THEM", but are missing the fact THERE WAS NO FLESH YET, because there was no fall yet. Yet Adam, was both male and female. Blessings....

In that I too have looked at when God created Adam and Eve in his image, this is where spirits of men were made, or the first human spirits, dwelling without souls or the bodies.
But according to your theology, when Eve was taken out of Adam this represents Eve the inperefect soul before, Eve was seduced by the serpent. So are you saying man fell when Eve was taken out of Adam?
Were Men/Adam made physical because they rebelled?

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 09:33:36 PM
The metaphor I can understand, and even to some limit big or small agree with.  It is the literal idea of his hermaphrodism that causes contention.

There is a difference between Adam and Eve besides their sex.  Adam was not deceived but Eve was --yes?  So Adam had something that Eve did not, that allowed him to not be deceived.  What would that be?

From what I read of sola scriptura; The bottom line is that Eve was deceived, but Adam deliberately disobeyed.  God told Adam specifically not to eat of the fruit or dying he would die - there is no mention of Eve having been told that, only an implication, and perhaps it was Adam who told her (hence the added; shall not even touch it).

Notice, that Eve took a bite, but it was not until Adam took the bite that they realised they were naked, and tried to hide from God.

Wiill someone, anyone show me in the Word of God where man was given a soul?  That should be simple enough since you all seem to say that man has a soul. Thanks

I realize that this goes against all Ive been taught, still the Bible states what a soul is, is it possible that all this time man has interpreted in error? Much has been said here to explain how they believe, but so far I have not seen evidence in the Bible that shows the soul of man does anything. Everytime soul is used it can be changed to life, breath; perhaps even ego, self.

 :cloud9: @ Molly......thanks......you said in a few words what I have been trying to explain......METAPHOR  :thumbsup:

Gen 1:27  There is no metaphor here.

(ASV)  And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(CLV) And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
(KJV)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(Rotherham)  And God created the man in his own image, In the image of God, created he him,—Male and female, created he, them.

(YLT)  And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

Micah, I know this isn't what you are searching for, but it might help you settle your search; Perhaps soul, much like olam...is a matter of context?

Soul in Genesis (and other verses) meaning "the whole being", and soul in other verses meaning something along the idea of "Essence of self; ego" or "the mind" or "the hidden man", in the same way that Olam in various contexts means different spans of time, instead of one solid measurement.

 :cloud9: Did you happen to notice there, Micah, that the tenses changed in an unusual way? In the image of God created he HIM; him there was Adam and THEIR name was Adam. Male and female created He THEM. He created THEM, both male and female. God has a feminine side as well, and Adam therefore was created in the image of BOTH male and female, before the female "appeared" by his side. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 10:31:47 PM
Gen 1:27  There is no metaphor here.

(ASV)  And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(CLV) And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
(KJV)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(Rotherham)  And God created the man in his own image, In the image of God, created he him,—Male and female, created he, them.

(YLT)  And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Genesis 6:5   
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

From the bible it seems to be that there are thoughts from the heart and also the spirit.

I think the heart might represent the soul and the spirit represents the image of God he made them Adam within each man. In fact that's a great way to explain Genesis 1 is to call the spirit of man within "Adam"
So my Adam thinks, but what is the soul? Is the soul the heart? [Eve], but whats the difference between heart thinking and spirit thinking? Is the heart better or more nobler or is the spirit?

Perhaps the spirit is Gods way of thinking, while the heart represents mans way of thinking. Mans thinking is based on the tree of good and evil, the heart produces either good thoughts or bad thought, hence the loveing and kind atheist, who loves people, but not God or the things of God, for his spirit is dead or to be more exact, dull of hearing to Gods ways.

The fall our spirits became evil, we cared not for God and our hearts did that which was evil, cared not for people.

Ezekiel 36:26 
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

But God cleanses our heart and renews our spirit,so we are no longer dead to Christ, but alive to him.

out of the heart procceds good and evil, even during the old testament.

So I believe the heart to be the center of what's called soul.
:2c:

Interesting.  Adam who represents spirit never utters another recorded word after they leave the garden.

Is that why Jesus is mute during his trials?


12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?

14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

--Mat 27

Cardinal: Humanity - The Human Species was created in two separate genders.  Not one hermaphrodite individual who was later through some sort of divine surgery (that isn't even mentioned) divided into two genders.

Eve, an individual, was in essence cloned from Adam's rib, or side - the only divine surgery here is God pulling a rib out of Adam, and closing the side.  There is no mention of Adam having a womb removed, or a vulva, or breasts, or any thing that even constitutes the woman body.  Only his rib.  And from that rib, Woman was formed.

God made humanity, and made them male and female.  The Human, male, and pulled from him a rib, and made another human suitable for him who was a girl.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 31, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
:cloud9: Did you happen to notice there, Micah, that the tenses changed in an unusual way? In the image of God created he HIM; him there was Adam and THEIR name was Adam. Male and female created He THEM. He created THEM, both male and female. God has a feminine side as well, and Adam therefore was created in the image of BOTH male and female, before the female "appeared" by his side. My  :2c: Blessings....

Thats exactly why I stated that it is NOT a metaphor.

"rib"

H6763
צלעה    צלע
tsêlâ‛  tsal‛âh
tsay-law', tsal-aw'
From H6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, that is, leaf); hence a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, that is, quarter); architecturally a timber (especially floor or ceiling) or plank (single or collectively, that is, a flooring): - beem, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:00:36 PM
Cardinal: Humanity - The Human Species was created in two separate genders.  Not one hermaphrodite individual who was later through some sort of divine surgery (that isn't even mentioned) divided into two genders.

Eve, an individual, was in essence cloned from Adam's rib, or side - the only divine surgery here is God pulling a rib out of Adam, and closing the side.  There is no mention of Adam having a womb removed, or a vulva, or breasts, or any thing that even constitutes the woman body.  Only his rib.  And from that rib, Woman was formed.

God made humanity, and made them male and female.  The Human, male, and pulled from him a rib, and made another human suitable for him who was a girl.

Friend Lefein, we are talking of God here, and God created man...male and female created(should be creating) He them.
God is El - Shadi= the breasted one. God is a nurturer to His children. He is male and female. Yet He does not see the difference Gal 3:28  There cannot be Jew or Greek, there cannot be bond or free, there cannot be male and female, for, all ye, are one, in Christ Jesus:

It is not written that he shall dissolve the gender identities of the resurrected.

It is not written that Adam the individual was brought out of the dust with a vagina, penis, scrotum, and breasts.

It is a ludicrous destruction of God's creation, and the very soul - yes indeed the soul, of a person to dissolve their identities of which gender is a foundational part.  Equality does not mean dissolution of beautiful, and complimentary differences, it means the dissolution of prejudice.

To reduce humanity to hermaphrodites in the beginning, or in the resurrection to come is to produce the spiritual equivalent of "strange flesh".  Hence I find it abominable in the site of the Lord who has made Humanity Male, and Female in His image, his image is his nature - Sentient, Rational, Emotional, etc.  God is Father, and Son...not Mother and Daughter.

"rib"

H6763
צלעה    צלע
tsêlâ‛  tsal‛âh
tsay-law', tsal-aw'
From H6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, that is, leaf); hence a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, that is, quarter); architecturally a timber (especially floor or ceiling) or plank (single or collectively, that is, a flooring): - beem, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).

Could this "rib" not be the new direction of man [curved] a door or [leaf] that is now open for the dialouge, a new base or foundation of thought[/b][plank, flooring, board] and new way of thought [chamber]? Rather than the metaphor "soul?"  Could it not be a "new awakened mind of man" who at that time still had the attributes of male and female, but as of yet was not revealed to man until Gen. 3:7 when "their" eyes were opened?

It could be a literal bit of cells, and flesh, and bone from his literal side..

I grow impatient, and weary; Universal Reconciliation should not be used as a license to carry weird doctrines.  :2c:

... because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--Isa 53:12




[he has] "poured out" [his soul]
H6168
ערה
‛ârâh
aw-raw'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) bare; hence to empty, pour out, demolish: - leave destitute, discover, empty, make naked, pour (out), rase, spread self, uncover.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:18:39 PM
It is not written that he shall dissolve the gender identities of the resurrected.

It is not written that Adam the individual was brought out of the dust with a vagina, penis, scrotum, and breasts.

It is a ludicrous destruction of God's creation, and the very soul - yes indeed the soul, of a person to dissolve their identities of which gender is a foundational part.  Equality does not mean dissolution of beautiful, and complimentary differences, it means the dissolution of prejudice.

To reduce humanity to hermaphrodites in the beginning, or in the resurrection to come is to produce the spiritual equivalent of "strange flesh".  Hence I find it abominable in the site of the Lord who has made Humanity Male, and Female in His image, his image is his nature - Sentient, Rational, Emotional, etc.  God is Father, and Son...not Mother and Daughter.

I dont understand how you can read the Bible with that mentality. I mean no disrespect, but that kind of thinking is very
unusual to me.

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 11:23:27 PM

... because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--Isa 53:12




[he has] "poured out" [his soul]
H6168
ערה
‛ârâh
aw-raw'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) bare; hence to empty, pour out, demolish: - leave destitute, discover, empty, make naked, pour (out), rase, spread self, uncover.

... because he hath poured out his LIFE unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--Isa 53:12   Molly is this not the same in translation

QuoteI dont understand how you can read the Bible with that mentality. I mean no disrespect, but that kind of thinking is very
unusual to me.

What mentality would that be?  No offense taken, but I want to be sure we're on the same page.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:00:36 PM
Cardinal: Humanity - The Human Species was created in two separate genders.  Not one hermaphrodite individual who was later through some sort of divine surgery (that isn't even mentioned) divided into two genders.

Eve, an individual, was in essence cloned from Adam's rib, or side - the only divine surgery here is God pulling a rib out of Adam, and closing the side.  There is no mention of Adam having a womb removed, or a vulva, or breasts, or any thing that even constitutes the woman body.  Only his rib.  And from that rib, Woman was formed.

God made humanity, and made them male and female.  The Human, male, and pulled from him a rib, and made another human suitable for him who was a girl.

Male and female called their name Adam. This is when God created the very spirits of mankind, both male spirits and female ones on day 6 of creation you could argue that this is when man preexisted prior to entering mothers womb, the number of man is 6 and called their name Adam. But God didn't create human bodies for them until day 8 in order to till the earth or ground. The original physical Adam was also named Adam in order that spirit Adam(There could be one original spirit Adam, but I belive that perhaps every spirit alive today was created here)only one spirit may dwell within the clay body of Adam, then Eve was created from Adam's rib and another female spirit entered her, one reason for this was to make them intimate, that Adam needs his rib to feel complete, hence they cleave to one another and produce a good marriage, so in spirt they comliment each other for they are male and female in spirit, but also compliment each other in soul, for their bodies are made for each other.
:2c:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 11:27:14 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:18:39 PM
It is not written that he shall dissolve the gender identities of the resurrected.

It is not written that Adam the individual was brought out of the dust with a vagina, penis, scrotum, and breasts.

It is a ludicrous destruction of God's creation, and the very soul - yes indeed the soul, of a person to dissolve their identities of which gender is a foundational part.  Equality does not mean dissolution of beautiful, and complimentary differences, it means the dissolution of prejudice.

To reduce humanity to hermaphrodites in the beginning, or in the resurrection to come is to produce the spiritual equivalent of "strange flesh".  Hence I find it abominable in the site of the Lord who has made Humanity Male, and Female in His image, his image is his nature - Sentient, Rational, Emotional, etc.  God is Father, and Son...not Mother and Daughter.

I dont understand how you can read the Bible with that mentality. I mean no disrespect, but that kind of thinking is very
unusual to me.

We're not talking about sex, Lefein.  Forget about sex for a minute.  You've studied other languages, haven't you?  You know how other languages assign a male or female gender to inanimate objects?  It has nothing to do with sex, but more to do with attributes.

The context of the verse as far as I can tell directly applies to their genders (not talking about "sex" I'm talking about gender identity), not their attributes of mind: Animus, Anima.  Unless I am some how completely illiterate...or else devoid entirely of The Spirit and some how I am missing the plain truth.  :dontknow:

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:35:44 PM
The context of the verse as far as I can tell directly applies to their genders (not talking about "sex" I'm talking about gender identity), not their attributes of mind: Animus, Anima.  Unless I am some how completely illiterate...or else devoid entirely of The Spirit and some how I am missing the plain truth.  :dontknow:

Maybe you missed this  Friend Lefein, we are talking of God here, and God created man...male and female created(should be creating) He them.
God is El - Shadi= the breasted one. God is a nurturer to His children. He is male and female. Yet He does not see the difference Gal 3:28  There cannot be Jew or Greek, there cannot be bond or free, there cannot be male and female, for, all ye, are one, in Christ Jesus:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 11:29:41 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 11:23:27 PM

... because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--Isa 53:12




[he has] "poured out" [his soul]
H6168
ערה
‛ârâh
aw-raw'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) bare; hence to empty, pour out, demolish: - leave destitute, discover, empty, make naked, pour (out), rase, spread self, uncover.

... because he hath poured out his LIFE unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--Isa 53:12   Molly is this not the same in translation

The word is 'nephesh,' so I suppose you could say he made naked his life or poured out his vitality--but, to me, it doesn't have the same meaning as making naked his soul.  I feel he had to separate from the Father to take on the sin of the world, leaving his soul uncovered.  To me, my soul equals my self.  So it has a little different meaning to it than my life.


H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Micah, I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion.  I could see how El'Shaddai would consist of nurturing, and provision - but nothing towards the state of God's gender; even when he plainly is called Father by the very Messiah himself, who knows the Father more intimately than you or I might possibly know in this life.

Male and Female created He them - could easily read as - He created them Male and Female.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:46:02 PM
Micah, I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion.  I could see how El'Shaddai would consist of nurturing, and provision - but nothing towards the state of God's gender; even when he plainly is called Father by the very Messiah himself, who knows the Father more intimately than you or I might possibly know in this life.

Male and Female created He them - could easily read as - He created them Male and Female.

Yes, literally.  But metaphorically or spiritually you could say Adam is spirit, Eve is soul, and they share one body--Adam--so you have spirit, soul, and body.

Metaphorically speaking, anything is possible..

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:51:28 PM
Metaphorically speaking, anything is possible..

Not really.  Even metaphor has its limits lol.  I can't say, for instance,' the tree was a barking dog'--and expect to be understood.


The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn't, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described, and in the case of English without the words "like" or "as"; The word or phrase used in this way. An implied comparison

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 11:59:35 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:51:28 PM
Metaphorically speaking, anything is possible..

Not really.  Even metaphor has its limits lol.  I can't say, for instance,' the tree was a barking dog'--and expect to be understood.


The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn't, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described, and in the case of English without the words "like" or "as"; The word or phrase used in this way. An implied comparison

The tree represents the tree of good and evil, it barked and demanded attention, but in the end its fruit turned Adam and Eve into dogs, hence Christ called the woman gentile those outside the camp "dog".

:2c:

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:51:28 PM
Metaphorically speaking, anything is possible..

You got that right.

Quote from: thinktank on November 01, 2010, 12:04:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 11:59:35 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:51:28 PM
Metaphorically speaking, anything is possible..

Not really.  Even metaphor has its limits lol.  I can't say, for instance,' the tree was a barking dog'--and expect to be understood.


The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn't, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described, and in the case of English without the words "like" or "as"; The word or phrase used in this way. An implied comparison

The tree represents the tree of good and evil, it barked and demanded attention, but in the end its fruit turned Adam and Eve into dogs, hence Christ called the woman gentile those outside the camp "dog".

:2c:

I knew I was going to regret that LOL.

And, Micah is never going to admit I have a soul.  :msealed:

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:46:02 PM
Micah, I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion.  I could see how El'Shaddai would consist of nurturing, and provision - but nothing towards the state of God's gender; even when he plainly is called Father by the very Messiah himself, who knows the Father more intimately than you or I might possibly know in this life.

Male and Female created He them - could easily read as - He created them Male and Female.

Yes, exactly he made them male and female. Do really believe you have no female attributes in you? Do you not believe you have the same caring and nurturing for you children and loved ones as a female has? Are you all masculine with no tenderness? No sir, I belileve that Gen. 1:27 is what God meant to do, for we see in Rom. 1:26 and 27 the outcome of such a dual creation in what man will indulge in.

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2010, 12:08:42 AM

Quote from: thinktank on November 01, 2010, 12:04:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 31, 2010, 11:59:35 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:51:28 PM
Metaphorically speaking, anything is possible..

Not really.  Even metaphor has its limits lol.  I can't say, for instance,' the tree was a barking dog'--and expect to be understood.


The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn't, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described, and in the case of English without the words "like" or "as"; The word or phrase used in this way. An implied comparison

The tree represents the tree of good and evil, it barked and demanded attention, but in the end its fruit turned Adam and Eve into dogs, hence Christ called the woman gentile those outside the camp "dog".

:2c:

I knew I was going to regret that LOL.

And, Micah is never going to admit I have a soul.  :msealed:

No actually you may be more on the money than you think.
But I will admit you have a soul when from the Bible you can show me where you got it.

Quote from: Lefein on October 31, 2010, 11:00:36 PM
Cardinal: Humanity - The Human Species was created in two separate genders.  Not one hermaphrodite individual who was later through some sort of divine surgery (that isn't even mentioned) divided into two genders.

Eve, an individual, was in essence cloned from Adam's rib, or side - the only divine surgery here is God pulling a rib out of Adam, and closing the side.  There is no mention of Adam having a womb removed, or a vulva, or breasts, or any thing that even constitutes the woman body.  Only his rib.  And from that rib, Woman was formed.

God made humanity, and made them male and female.  The Human, male, and pulled from him a rib, and made another human suitable for him who was a girl.

:cloud9: Lefein......was Christ literally a rock out of which water flowed? There is line upon line (letter literal understanding) and there is precept upon precept (principles that reflect the Truth found in His Spirit which is mirrored in the creation, including man).

While it's important, actually mandatory, to get the Word in you line upon line, there comes a time when you are called to walk upon the waters below the firmament (literal letter AND natural creation) and walk in the understanding that only the Spirit can provide.

What I'm sharing is witnessed all thru the Word from Genesis to Revelation, as are ALL precepts, which is one way you know that you know that you know......Blessings.....

QuoteYes, exactly he made them male and female. Do really believe you have no female attributes in you? Do you not believe you have the same caring and nurturing for you children and loved ones as a female has? Are you all masculine with no tenderness? No sir, I belileve that Gen. 1:27 is what God meant to do, for we see in Rom. 1:26 and 27 the outcome of such a dual creation in what man will indulge in.

I don't think that is what is implied by the scriptures.  Masculinity is capable of being tender.  Anima, and Animus are aspects of the soul, but not gender identity.  A man in Heaven might be in touch with his feminine side...but he isn't going to walk around in spiritual drag...Neither did he do so in the beginning.  This is my perspective, and conviction.

QuoteLefein......was Christ literally a rock out of which water flowed? There is line upon line (letter literal understanding) and there is precept upon precept (principles that reflect the Truth found in His Spirit which is mirrored in the creation, including man).

While it's important, actually mandatory, to get the Word in you line upon line, there comes a time when you are called to walk upon the waters below the firmament (literal letter AND natural creation) and walk in the understanding that only the Spirit can provide.

We should be careful that we are in Living water, not weirdness.  I will not say one way or another that your revelations are not correct - but I will say that there is a line between stretching our horizons...and stretching context.

QuoteWhat I'm sharing is witnessed all thru the Word from Genesis to Revelation, as are ALL precepts, which is one way you know that you know that you know......Blessings.....

And I am sharing the convictions of The Spirit.  Peace be with you..

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2010, 08:28:04 PM
Is not the living soul/human being/man/person, the vessel, from which the desires and lusts emit from when the self/ego is tempted?  The "soul" being tempted is the vessel, the vessel is the soul...there IS NO SOUL IN A vessel.

Indeed but it works both ways... the body (made of soul) when combined with the spirit of God becomes a living Soul. The soul can not survive with out a body, as the soul departs the flesh with out the Spirit.  

Psa 146:4  When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. 

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

1Co 15:45  So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Gen 2:7  Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The Hebrew word נְשָׁמָה (neshamah, "breath") is used for God and for the life imparted to humans, not animals (see T. C. Mitchell, "The Old Testament Usage of Neshama," VT 11 [1961]: 177-87). Its usage in the Bible conveys more than a breathing living organism (נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה, nefesh khayyah). Whatever is given this breath of life becomes animated with the life from God, has spiritual understanding (Job_32:8), and has a functioning conscience (Pro_20:27).

Human life is described here as consisting of a body (made from soil from the ground) and breath (given by God). Both animals and humans are called "a living being" (נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה) but humankind became that in a different and more significant way.

23 tn The Hebrew term נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh, "being") is often translated "soul," but the word usually refers to the whole person. The phrase נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה (nefesh khayyah, "living being") is used of both animals and human beings (see Gen_1:20; Gen_1:24; Gen_1:30; Gen_2:19).  (Net Bible Commentary)


Paul

Yet, God who has no body in the old testament is ascribed as expressing a soul.

We are made in his image, our souls are likewise.  It makes no sense that the soul of a person depends on the body in light of Samuel, and God.

I think God does have a soul the one that sits on the throne, not the maifestations, i.e the burning bush

but Jesus incarnate had a soul.

Quote from: thinktank on November 02, 2010, 01:40:04 PM
I think God does have a soul the one that sits on the throne, not the maifestations, i.e the burning bush

but Jesus incarnate had a soul.

And, Jesus lives!


Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore [eis aion aion], Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1

Quote from: thinktank on Today at 06:40:04 AM
I think God does have a soul the one that sits on the throne, not the maifestations, i.e the burning bush

but Jesus incarnate had a soul. 

Correct me if this is wrong, when Jesus was made Heb.2:9 " and him who was made some little less" Rom 8:3 "sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh" Php 2:7 " being made in the likeness of men" didnt Jesus BECOME a living soul? A breathing/living creature?
1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
Did Jesus not become (in likeness) that " first man Adam became a living creature" and if so, does that make Him a living soul, not A SOUL?
Molly:
And, Jesus lives!    YES HE DOES!Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore [eis aion aion], Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Rev 1
Was it not, after His death and resurrection, that we see 1Co 15:45  ..."the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit," ?

My thoughts and  :2c:

17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life [psuche], that I might take it again.

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

--John 10


"life"

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


He lays his [mortal] soul down for us and he picks it up again.  He has the power [exousia] to do this.


John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life [psuche] for the sheep.

Isaiah 42


42Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking [1] flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, [2] till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. 9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.


I think this is God speaking here and says behold my servant, who I presume to  be Jesus whom my soul delighteth. So here God is saying his soul delights, even before Jesus has been sent.
Furthermore it seems this God speaking is not the word, but the father because he said he upholds his servant. So even the father has a soul it seems from this verse.


The above verse also says that the breath of life in Genesis is different to the spirit of man within. This elaborates more on what I said about God making man in his image, that the breath is different to the spirit.

The breath seems to be connected to the soul part of man

Here again we have a spirit man and also the breath of life that gives life.
Job 33
4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. 5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. 6 Behold, I am according to thy wish [2] in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay

spirit, image of God, plus breath soul, plus clay body.

Im still uncertain if the soul can live after death, for the following scripture seems to indicate that we do but others I have seen do not, the others seem to indicate that a living soul = living blood but if the father has a soul who does not have blood, the maybe its possible to have a soul that is not deemed as living, for it is no longer in the land of the living.

kings 17
21 And he stretched [6] himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. 24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in thy mouth is truth.

The soul returns in this scripture.

So perhaps man has a spirit and soul, so that when they die, they are 2 ghosts, one is the spirit man and one is the soul man, but when in a body the soul and spirit are called a living soul.
:2c:

 :cloud9: Once again, with feeling..... :angelharp:  my  :2c:.....: :winkgrin: A living soul, is a soul that has life, the life of the spirit.  Without that, the soul is "dead", ie. let the dead bury the dead. The soul cannot receive more life from God without it first coming thru the spirit given man; the result of that was shown in the garden, when Eve, metaphor for the soul of man, tried to obtain something without going thru Adam, ie. the metaphor for the spirit , her head.

Same pattern as when the woman, the church, tries to obtain something thru their own works, instead of relying on the Spirit of God. This is evidenced in the dead, ie. LIFE-less doctrines propagated thru so many of them.

The first Adam was a soul that RECEIVED life, just like a woman that receives seed; the last Adam is a life-GIVING Spirit, just like a man that gives seed. Truly is it better to give than to receive.  :winkgrin:  It's a picture of the lesser and greater glory.

A womb-man is necessary to be created first for the propagation of life, just as the creation that was created (IN DARKNESS) was needed to make the invisible Seed visible. God builds a house, then inhabits it. This principle is why we don't "see" Eve until God brings her out from that which she was hidden in, and she is given form.

Same principle as why Joseph was going to put Mary away, hiding her, that she not be put to open shame. He was doing what he saw his Head do in righteousness of Spirit. And same principle for why the feminine aspect of God is hidden, our mother, because He will not allow her to be put to open shame. Without the SPIRIT, you cannot see the kingdom of God, ie. New Jerusalem, our MOTHER.

This is even witnessed in the first line of Genesis. Beginning there also means "firstfruits", so reading now we get, "In the firstfruits, God created the heaven (spirit) and the earth (soul)."

Earth there also has a meaning of Sheol, the grave, or underworld, land without return. This is why the soul was created first, out of this "place", because the addition of the spirit repeats the principle of resurrection, ie. and he BECAME a LIVING soul, a soul that has RECEIVED (not IS) the lifespark of the Spirit.

This is witnessed by the letter of the Word/law that KILLETH, but the Spirit giveth life. The soul is part of the creation that is in death, and must receive life to form the Son. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 02, 2010, 06:54:39 PM
:cloud9: Once again, with feeling..... :angelharp:  my  :2c:.....: :winkgrin: A living soul, is a soul that has life, the life of the spirit.  Without that, the soul is "dead", ie. let the dead bury the dead. The soul cannot receive more life from God without it first coming thru the spirit given man; the result of that was shown in the garden, when Eve, metaphor for the soul of man, tried to obtain something without going thru Adam, ie. the metaphor for the spirit , her head.

Same pattern as when the woman, the church, tries to obtain something thru their own works, instead of relying on the Spirit of God. This is evidenced in the dead, ie. LIFE-less doctrines propagated thru so many of them.

The first Adam was a soul that RECEIVED life, just like a woman that receives seed; the last Adam is a life-GIVING Spirit, just like a man that gives seed. Truly is it better to give than to receive.  :winkgrin:  It's a picture of the lesser and greater glory.

A womb-man is necessary to be created first for the propagation of life, just as the creation that was created (IN DARKNESS) was needed to make the invisible Seed visible. God builds a house, then inhabits it. This principle is why we don't "see" Eve until God brings her out from that which she was hidden in, and she is given form.

Same principle as why Joseph was going to put Mary away, hiding her, that she not be put to open shame. He was doing what he saw his Head do in righteousness of Spirit. And same principle for why the feminine aspect of God is hidden, our mother, because He will not allow her to be put to open shame. Without the SPIRIT, you cannot see the kingdom of God, ie. New Jerusalem, our MOTHER.

This is even witnessed in the first line of Genesis. Beginning there also means "firstfruits", so reading now we get, "In the firstfruits, God created the heaven (spirit) and the earth (soul)."

Earth there also has a meaning of Sheol, the grave, or underworld, land without return. This is why the soul was created first, out of this "place", because the addition of the spirit repeats the principle of resurrection, ie. and he BECAME a LIVING soul, a soul that has RECEIVED (not IS) the lifespark of the Spirit.

This is witnessed by the letter of the Word/law that KILLETH, but the Spirit giveth life. The soul is part of the creation that is in death, and must receive life to form the Son. Blessings....

Thoughts and interpretion thats what were here for :bigGrin:

Pierac: So you'll deny the whole Old Testament, and God's nature pre-incarnation in order to support your own tradition...

I don't want your wisdom of pretense.

I'll repeat it again; God in the Old Testament is said to be "not a man" - he is also omnipresent, that means that God (The Father) is not limited by the constraints of a finite body.  If you can prove otherwise...have at it.

God is Spirit.

God is omnipresent.

God expresses a soul.

God (Old Testament) is not a man.

God (Old Testament) does not have a body, or a dwelling in which he is contained, or must dwell in order to be a "living soul"; IE: he is not a finite man who exists in a body of dust.

God made us in his image, likeness.

God is spirit, expresses a soul, is rational, has emotions, a mind, sentience, etc; these are certainly a great part of the image of God.  The body is a vessel, a temple, a covering, a tent, a house, a dwelling...But the Spirit and soul expressed are the Being.

Man became a living soul upon the introduction of The Breath not the body.  The breath is the root of living, not the body.  The body was formed as a dwelling, not a dependency for existing.  If it were a dependency for existence - Samuel would not, and could never have been raised up by the medium at Endor, he'd of been completely gone, non-existent, the memory of a piece of rock (rocks don't have memories).  Yet we find him talking in the scriptures to Saul...Are the scriptures in error?  No.

Nephesh comes from Naphash - both of which carry the idea of Breath, not dust.

Psyche comes from Psucho - which also carries the idea of Breath, not dust.

If God's soul is not dependent on a body to exist, and etymologically it is not even implied, and the verse regarding Samuel shows a sentient, perceiving, conversative, disembodied being - then we can safely, and legitimately conclude that the soul is not dependent on "the body" to exist.

I'll thank you not to all caps at me either, you are displeasing and your reaction has not given you any iota of respect, or legitimacy.  Good day to you sir, and may you take your own advice.

QuotePlease, We have no idea what God ascribes!

Yes we certainly CAN know what God expresses, in terms of my statement, if you wouldn't jump to weird conclusions...

The Bible says often, and you can look it up, I trust you are intelligent, and mobile enough: "My soul"  And it is God who is speaking.  Yes, we can beyond a doubt know that God is ascribed as expressing a soul.  Unless you want to deny the scriptures...?

QuoteStop pretending you have all the answers! Your just like the rest of us, having no idea!

You've shown your true intent, your true colours with this statement.  They are ugly colours, expressing ugly intent, from an ugly spirit.

___ ___ ___

God is not some unknowable deist clock maker way off on the rim of the universe; he is a personal, recognisable, intimate, knowable (as far as we can gather) god who speaks to us constantly!  Do not say that we cannot learn the nature of God, when that is a part of the whole purpose to begin with.  We will know, as we are known.  And behold the Kingdom of God is nigh and within us!  Our knowing of God, and journey to greater understanding begins now.  Do not dare deny it with your strange contempt...this ugliness that you have just expressed.  I will have none of your bread!  It is bitter bread, and I have had more than my fair share of eating bitter bread in my lifetime to have you come and put it on my table.

Stand aside Pierac, you will not hinder me from knowing my God, and expressing that walk.

WOW!

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 02, 2010, 07:53:17 PM
[Thoughts and interpretion thats what were here for :bigGrin:

:cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Lefein on November 02, 2010, 07:55:01 PM
Pierac: So you'll deny the whole Old Testament, and God's nature pre-incarnation in order to support your own tradition...

I don't want your wisdom of pretense.

I'll repeat it again; God in the Old Testament is said to be "not a man" - he is also omnipresent, that means that God (The Father) is not limited by the constraints of a finite body.  If you can prove otherwise...have at it.

God is Spirit.

God is omnipresent.

God expresses a soul.

God (Old Testament) is not a man.

God (Old Testament) does not have a body, or a dwelling in which he is contained, or must dwell in order to be a "living soul"; IE: he is not a finite man who exists in a body of dust.

God made us in his image, likeness.

God is spirit, expresses a soul, is rational, has emotions, a mind, sentience, etc; these are certainly a great part of the image of God.  The body is a vessel, a temple, a covering, a tent, a house, a dwelling...But the Spirit and soul expressed are the Being.

Man became a living soul upon the introduction of The Breath not the body.  The breath is the root of living, not the body.  The body was formed as a dwelling, not a dependency for existing.  If it were a dependency for existence - Samuel would not, and could never have been raised up by the medium at Endor, he'd of been completely gone, non-existent, the memory of a piece of rock (rocks don't have memories).  Yet we find him talking in the scriptures to Saul...Are the scriptures in error?  No.

Nephesh comes from Naphash - both of which carry the idea of Breath, not dust.

Psyche comes from Psucho - which also carries the idea of Breath, not dust.

If God's soul is not dependent on a body to exist, and etymologically it is not even implied, and the verse regarding Samuel shows a sentient, perceiving, conversative, disembodied being - then we can safely, and legitimately conclude that the soul is not dependent on "the body" to exist.

I'll thank you not to all caps at me either, you are displeasing and your reaction has not given you any iota of respect, or legitimacy.  Good day to you sir, and may you take your own advice.

QuotePlease, We have no idea what God ascribes!

Yes we certainly CAN know what God expresses, in terms of my statement, if you wouldn't jump to weird conclusions...

The Bible says often, and you can look it up, I trust you are intelligent, and mobile enough: "My soul"  And it is God who is speaking.  Yes, we can beyond a doubt know that God is ascribed as expressing a soul.  Unless you want to deny the scriptures...?

QuoteStop pretending you have all the answers! Your just like the rest of us, having no idea!

You've shown your true intent, your true colours with this statement.  They are ugly colours, expressing ugly intent, from an ugly spirit.

___ ___ ___

God is not some unknowable deist clock maker way off on the rim of the universe; he is a personal, recognisable, intimate, knowable (as far as we can gather) god who speaks to us constantly!  Do not say that we cannot learn the nature of God, when that is a part of the whole purpose to begin with.  We will know, as we are known.  And behold the Kingdom of God is nigh and within us!  Our knowing of God, and journey to greater understanding begins now.  Do not dare deny it with your strange contempt...this ugliness that you have just expressed.  I will have none of your bread!  It is bitter bread, and I have had more than my fair share of eating bitter bread in my lifetime to have you come and put it on my table.

Stand aside Pierac, you will not hinder me from knowing my God, and expressing that walk.

You can fear no man separating you from the love of God.

Quote from: CardinalA living soul, is a soul that has life, the life of the spirit.  Without that, the soul is "dead", ie. let the dead bury the dead. The soul cannot receive more life from God without it first coming thru the spirit given man; the result of that was shown in the garden, when Eve, metaphor for the soul of man, tried to obtain something without going thru Adam, ie. the metaphor for the spirit , her head.

The whole post was great, but I want to talk some more about this--because the theory being put forth is that the soul is somehow tied to the body and dies with the body.

Adam's body was formed by God before God breathed into him. Does he have a soul, yet?  People want to tie the soul to the body.  But, like you said, it is not until God breathes into him that he becomes a 'living soul.' Even though he had a body before that, --so was he a dead soul before he received the breath of God?

Is this why Adam was not deceived--because he was a living soul?
God separates soul [Eve] from that Spirit, and she is the one who is deceived.


We see Jesus pointing to people who are alive and calling them 'dead'--Let the dead bury their dead.  What does he mean by that?  They who are doing the burying are dead souls?   

But,  my 'dead' are alive.  And, the soul can live without this body of dust.


Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

--2 Cor 12:2

 :cloud9: Yes, I'm of the opinion from what I've seen in the Word, that Adam was not THIS body of dust YET because until the disobedience, I think he dwelled in the heavenly realms, and the dust he was originally made from was like "gold dust" ie. a heavenly body.

This revelation was working on me this morning as I awoke. The tabernacle shows a progression beginning with the fallen state (outer court of animal skins/He put skins on them), BUT the end is shown as a new man which is composed of gold (speaks of the higher nature of God and His pre-fall creation), within and WITHOUT, which is shown in the construction of the Ark made of craptim wood (speaks of humanity).

The two coverings of gold represent the anointing within and without, accompanied by the glory cloud as the covering over the new creation man the Ark represents. Since we know that we were one with Him from the beginning, that means the END (Holy of Holies) is really our beginning!

This is further witnessed (to me at least) in that the ephod was made of GOLD, and covered the heart (soul) of man. We know that Adam was made a High Priest of God, we know Lucifer was a man who had every precious stone for his covering.

The soul is the vessel for the spirit (both good and bad) to express it's nature thru, ie. birth something. Because it is like a womb, it reproduces whatever seed is planted in it. He's had me on some deeper things regarding this lately, but I've not done the "homework" necessary yet to bring it forth. Blessings....

Quote from: CardinalSince we know that we were one with Him from the beginning, that means the END (Holy of Holies) is really our beginning!

wow! 


Colossians 1:27
To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


...which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
--Luke 3

"Since we know that we were one with Him from the beginning?" How is this?

Quote from: Cardinal on November 02, 2010, 09:49:08 PM
:cloud9: Yes, I'm of the opinion from what I've seen in the Word, that Adam was not THIS body of dust YET because until the disobedience, I think he dwelled in the heavenly realms, and the dust he was originally made from was like "gold dust" ie. a heavenly body.

This revelation was working on me this morning as I awoke. The tabernacle shows a progression beginning with the fallen state (outer court of animal skins/He put skins on them), BUT the end is shown as a new man which is composed of gold (speaks of the higher nature of God and His pre-fall creation), within and WITHOUT, which is shown in the construction of the Ark made of craptim wood (speaks of humanity).

The two coverings of gold represent the anointing within and without, accompanied by the glory cloud as the covering over the new creation man the Ark represents. Since we know that we were one with Him from the beginning, that means the END (Holy of Holies) is really our beginning!

This is further witnessed (to me at least) in that the ephod was made of GOLD, and covered the heart (soul) of man. We know that Adam was made a High Priest of God, we know Lucifer was a man who had every precious stone for his covering.

The soul is the vessel for the spirit (both good and bad) to express it's nature thru, ie. birth something. Because it is like a womb, it reproduces whatever seed is planted in it. He's had me on some deeper things regarding this lately, but I've not done the "homework" necessary yet to bring it forth. Blessings....

I am glad you said opinion, at the onset

 :cloud9: Yes, when I say "gold dust" obviously I don't mean literal gold dust. I have seen the glorified body and it looked like cells of living gold, is all I can use to explain it. Since dust and cloud is the same, and since we are cells of His body, it makes perfect sense. Now as for the other.....check it out.....

Hosea 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence , and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early .

Our offense is that our ways are not His ways. We are to seek His face (nature).

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up . 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. 3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth

You can't return to a place you've never been before.

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected .

A day is as a 1000 years. It's been 2000 or two days since Jesus walked the earth. He said in the third day He would be perfected. He was already perfect, but perfect also means completed, ie. the Head and the body made one, which is why He said He had no where to lay His head. Our Head went ahead of us 2000 years, just as the Ark of the Covenant went ahead of the Israelites 2000 cubits, that where He is we may be also. He desires a body that will follow Him wheresoever the Lamb goest, and the Lamb went into the Holy of Holies. He tore us (broken when we were lowered from our first estate) and He will bind us up (make us whole again in Him). Blessings....

Now to answer you.

QuoteJohn 3:6  "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  To even see the kingdom of God you must be born again from above.

Joh 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I believe friend, you are taking the verse you presented out of context.

Jesus is not talking about the soul being dependent on the body (this current conversation) he is talking about the nature of the Kingdom of God, and how to experience it, and live in it, and the prerequisite for entering it.

The full context of the verse; A conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus concerning the Kingdom of God.

Quote
(Joh 3:3)  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(Joh 3:4)  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(Joh 3:5)  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Joh 3:6)  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(Joh 3:7)  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

(Joh 3:8)  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The same verses in the CLV version.

Quote
(Joh 3:3)  Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."

(Joh 3:4)  Nicodemus is saying to him, "How can a man, being a veteran, be begotten? He can not be entering into the womb of his mother a second time and be begotten!"

(Joh 3:5)  Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten of water and of spirit, he can not be entering into the kingdom of God."

(Joh 3:6)  That which is begotten by the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten by the spirit is spirit."

(Joh 3:7)  You should not be marveling that I said to you, 'You must be begotten anew.'"

(Joh 3:8)  The blast is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit."

The Greek when speaking of "born again/anew" uses the word;  Anothen, which translates to up-place, or anew, or above.

So yes, that which is born of flesh is flesh, because that which is born of flesh is a child of Adam (sinner), rather than a born from above child of God (saved).

The verse is talking about people inside, and outside of the kingdom of God.  This thread is about the Soul (currently, the original topic is the death of Christ).

In other words...you're off in left field, and off topic.  We apparently aren't even having the same conversation.

I suppose it is not God's purpose to inspire me to take my own vengeance.  That is his job.

My doctrine?  I have ample evidence of the Jesus = God incarnate debate if that is your issue...But I am not going to argue this forbidden subject with you.  As it stands, you call my doctrine false, and you set your own ideas up as superior, while telling me;

Don't call the doctrine I believe in false, if you are going to A) Not prove it, B) tell me before hand to not pretend that I know it all...which I never did anyway...Or C) Not even tell me what "doctrine" of mine is "false".

QuoteLet's look at one of the stories in the Old Testament. In the story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3, "who" is it who appears to Moses and talked to him? The vast majority in the Church, of course would say... it was God himself, Yahweh, who spoke to Moses. After all, the text states that "'God' called to him from the midst of the bush and 'said', 'Moses, Moses!'" (v4).

I never denied this. 

QuoteVerse 6 is even more convincing when the same speaker says, "'I am' the 'God' of your father, 'the God' of Abraham, 'the God' of Isaac, and 'the God' of Jacob.' Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at 'God'." Surely it was Jehovah God himself who appear to Moses and who personally spoke?

QuoteWhat do you say?  Mr. Lefein

That God is Spirit, expresses a soul, and didn't have a body of flesh until he came manifested as the person of Christ, who himself says; Before Abraham was, I am.

And back on topic, I say that the soul can exist independently of the body, but that it depends on the spirit to exist, or even be.  Because God is a spirit, who expresses a soul - and did not have a body of flesh in the Old Testament.  "God is not a man that he should lie".  Also that we are made in God's image, which in the Old Testament probably did not have much to do with the flesh, or body, but rather had a great deal more to do with the spirit, the Breath of Life that he gave, which carried with it the expression of a soul.  And indeed I believe that we are made in the image of the invisible God, and in the Old Testament we were made in the image of the bodiless or fleshless God - and so our likeness of being in God's image is probably not rooted in the body, which dies, and decays, and is temporal (very much unlike God, and so is a poor image of God if that was his intent) but is instead rooted in the inner man, the spirit and soul of the person, who by the spirit are able to express a soul, very much like God, and so the inner man is a much better image, or likeness of God, than dust...of which God does not depend to exist.

I also cite Samuel, who was not resurrected, and therefore was a being who could interact, and therefore expressed a soul - yet was without flesh, and body.

You have not answered these, if you don't have an answer that is fine.  If you do, come to homeplate and bring them.   So...  Did God speak in Exodus 3 or was there another? [/quote]

Of course God spoke, but as the old saying goes; what does the price of tomato juice in Thailand have to do with our conversation?


Good day to you sir.

-Lefein

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 01:15:23 AM
"Since we know that we were one with Him from the beginning?" How is this?

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 01:32:02 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 02, 2010, 09:49:08 PM
:cloud9: Yes, I'm of the opinion from what I've seen in the Word, that Adam was not THIS body of dust YET because until the disobedience, I think he dwelled in the heavenly realms, and the dust he was originally made from was like "gold dust" ie. a heavenly body.

This revelation was working on me this morning as I awoke. The tabernacle shows a progression beginning with the fallen state (outer court of animal skins/He put skins on them), BUT the end is shown as a new man which is composed of gold (speaks of the higher nature of God and His pre-fall creation), within and WITHOUT, which is shown in the construction of the Ark made of craptim wood (speaks of humanity).

The two coverings of gold represent the anointing within and without, accompanied by the glory cloud as the covering over the new creation man the Ark represents. Since we know that we were one with Him from the beginning, that means the END (Holy of Holies) is really our beginning!

This is further witnessed (to me at least) in that the ephod was made of GOLD, and covered the heart (soul) of man. We know that Adam was made a High Priest of God, we know Lucifer was a man who had every precious stone for his covering.

The soul is the vessel for the spirit (both good and bad) to express it's nature thru, ie. birth something. Because it is like a womb, it reproduces whatever seed is planted in it. He's had me on some deeper things regarding this lately, but I've not done the "homework" necessary yet to bring it forth. Blessings....

I am glad you said opinion, at the onset

:cloud9: Don't forget the creation was "lowered" too. Romans 8, the CREATION is travailing waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. It too, had a pristine state. Blessings....

:cloud9: Yes, when I say "gold dust" obviously I don't mean literal gold dust. I have seen the glorified body and it looked like cells of living gold, is all I can use to explain it. Since dust and cloud is the same, and since we are cells of His body, it makes perfect sense. Now as for the other.....check it out.....


I have faith we'd be rich one day but I never thought we''d literally be made of gold.  :icon_joker:

"Yes, I'm of the opinion...." (Cardinal)  "The soul is the vessel for the spirit ..." (Cardinal) now the soul is a vessel? Where do you read this?
These thoughts are your opinion, correct? 
"This revelation was working on me this morning as I awoke." (Cardinal)
"Don't forget the creation was "lowered" (Cardinal)
I dont see where creation was lowered Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made  subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: MicahI dont see where creation was lowered

5Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere,

    "What is man, that you are mindful of him,
   or the son of man, that you care for him?
7You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
   you have crowned him with glory and honor,

8putting everything in subjection under his feet."

--Heb 2



...cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;

--Gen 3




Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

--Gen 3



14Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.


--Heb 2

 :cloud9: Micah, I'm going to post something pertaining to the vessel aspect of this, ASAP, but I have some more studying to do. Though I know you don't believe it, EVERYTHING I say is backed up by scripture and/or revealed precepts contained in scripture. Peace..... :thumbsup:

Goodspeed Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands!

Weymouth Heb 2:7 Thou hast made him only a little inferior to the angels; with glory and honour Thou hast crowned him, and hast set him to govern the works of Thy hands.
Geneva  Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a litle inferiour to ye Angels: thou crownedst him with glory & honour, and hast set him aboue the workes of thine hands.

Emp. Diag  Heb 2:7 Thou didst make less him a little while then messengers; with glory and with honor thou didst crown him;

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 09:01:11 PM
"Yes, I'm of the opinion...." (Cardinal)  "The soul is the vessel for the spirit ..." (Cardinal) now the soul is a vessel? Where do you read this?
These thoughts are your opinion, correct? 
"This revelation was working on me this morning as I awoke." (Cardinal)
"Don't forget the creation was "lowered" (Cardinal)
I dont see where creation was lowered Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made  subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope
Peace and Love Through Jesus

I disagree with you micah and also cardinal

I think we first started off as spirit beings, then we were given mortal bodies or souls to express our spirt man.

Then we fell and Christ came to redeem us, not just restore us , but to give us a higher calling than before, so that we may become the adopted sons of God. Adam was not an adopted son, but only a created son.

I think the verse above talks about how we were made subject to bondage, because it was Gods way of teaching us the value of following him. So in effect we may sin without cutting us off from God forever, because we have a redeemer, so I think we are fortunate that God allows us to sin and yet be reedemed.

:2c:

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands!



28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the
earth.
--Gen 1



15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

--Gen 2

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Thou madest him for a little while a little lower than the angels.

"madest"

G1642
ἐλαττόω
elattoō
el-at-to'-o
From G1640; to lessen (in rank or influence): - decrease, make lower.



In other words, thou lowered him a little lower than the angels.  He was lowered from a higher place, that's what elattoo means.

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Christ was made lower than the angels, but yet they were subject to him. So if he was lower than them it cannot mean in authority but in physical abilities.

The first man a living creature but the second Adam was the life giving spirit.

But the second Adam was also God incarnate but does not mention that. The verse does not mention Adam as a spirit, for it does not apply to the physical world, this verse deals with creatures or souls. The souls of Adam and the soul of Christ the second Adam.

If Adam is not a spirit being in Gods image, then we are no different from animals. God doesnt die for animals though, he died for human kind, for we are made in his image. If humans are simply intelligent animals, then why doesn't God, give us life in our physical bodies, we then would live and not die, but he did not allow us to take of the tree of life, for our spirits are determined to do evil and must learn through experience, the consequences of sin.

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2010, 10:59:32 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Thou madest him for a little while a little lower than the angels.

"madest"

G1642
ἐλαττόω
elattoō
el-at-to'-o
From G1640; to lessen (in rank or influence): - decrease, make lower.



In other words, thou lowered him a little lower than the angels.  He was lowered from a higher place, that's what elattoo means.

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.

A living being, or spirit is different from a life giving being, or spirit.  Though both are certainly beings, and could legitimately be assumed to be spirits.

Adam still had the breath of God (Spirit).  But the last Adam is the breath of God (Spirit) itself.  Both Adam, and Last Adam however, have spirit, especially the last - being spirit itself.

The body was just dust, worthless dust (of no value to fellowship with God, for what fellowship can God have with inanimate dirt?) until of course, The Spirit.  And then fast forward a few ages later -- and we have "THE SPIRIT!!".

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 11:25:44 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Christ was made lower than the angels, but yet they were subject to him. So if he was lower than them it cannot mean in authority but in physical abilities.

The first man a living creature but the second Adam was the life giving spirit.

But the second Adam was also God incarnate but does not mention that. The verse does not mention Adam as a spirit, for it does not apply to the physical world, this verse deals with creatures or souls. The souls of Adam and the soul of Christ the second Adam.

If Adam is not a spirit being in Gods image, then we are no different from animals. God doesnt die for animals though, he died for human kind, for we are made in his image. If humans are simply intelligent animals, then why doesn't God, give us life in our physical bodies, we then would live and not die, but he did not allow us to take of the tree of life, for our spirits are determined to do evil and must learn through experience, the consequences of sin.

I dont see what you are saying. The Lord God formed man and made him a living soul not a spirit.
(The first part of my post was not for you, my mistake.)

It takes life, in order to live Micah.

Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 11:34:09 PM
It takes life, in order to live Micah.

???

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:28:39 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2010, 10:59:32 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Thou madest him for a little while a little lower than the angels.

"madest"

G1642
ἐλαττόω
elattoō
el-at-to'-o
From G1640; to lessen (in rank or influence): - decrease, make lower.



In other words, thou lowered him a little lower than the angels.  He was lowered from a higher place, that's what elattoo means.

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.

He wasn't made inferior from the getgo, he was lowered into an inferior position from a higher position.  If he was created inferior, a different word would be used than elattoo.

The Breath of Life is required to be a Living Soul.

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:32:00 PM

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 11:25:44 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Christ was made lower than the angels, but yet they were subject to him. So if he was lower than them it cannot mean in authority but in physical abilities.

The first man a living creature but the second Adam was the life giving spirit.

But the second Adam was also God incarnate but does not mention that. The verse does not mention Adam as a spirit, for it does not apply to the physical world, this verse deals with creatures or souls. The souls of Adam and the soul of Christ the second Adam.

If Adam is not a spirit being in Gods image, then we are no different from animals. God doesnt die for animals though, he died for human kind, for we are made in his image. If humans are simply intelligent animals, then why doesn't God, give us life in our physical bodies, we then would live and not die, but he did not allow us to take of the tree of life, for our spirits are determined to do evil and must learn through experience, the consequences of sin.

I dont see what you are saying. The Lord God formed man and made him a living soul not a spirit.
(The first part of my post was not for you, my mistake.)

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth [6] upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing [7] seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, [8] I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God created man here in Genesis 1, but man did not become a living soul until Genesis 2. Before he becomes a living soul man is created in the image of God on day 6, on day 7 God rests. Then presumably day 8  God builds a body and soul for Adam for him to become part of the earth so he can till the ground. So for 2 days or 1 day Man is without a body without a soul. That day could in fact be a thousand years, but whether a thousand or 1 day, man is created in Gods image on day 6 without becoming a living soul yet.
:2c:

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2010, 11:45:33 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 11:28:39 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 03, 2010, 10:59:32 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.


And Thinktank The Word says 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,  

Is there a verse that states man was a spirit first?

Thou madest him for a little while a little lower than the angels.

"madest"

G1642
ἐλαττόω
elattoō
el-at-to'-o
From G1640; to lessen (in rank or influence): - decrease, make lower.



In other words, thou lowered him a little lower than the angels.  He was lowered from a higher place, that's what elattoo means.

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands

Notice he was MADE inferior. Even if we use the word lower he was MADE lower, not lowered.

He wasn't made inferior from the getgo, he was lowered into an inferior position from a higher position.  If he was created inferior, a different word would be used than elattoo.

Now who or how did "created" get into this?

Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 11:46:06 PM
The Breath of Life is required to be a Living Soul.

Yes?

Job 33:4  The spirit of GOD, hath made me, and, the inspiration of the Almighty, giveth me life.

QuoteI dont see what you are saying. The Lord God formed man and made him a living soul not a spirit.

You can't have a living soul, without a spirit.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 02, 2010, 09:49:08 PM
:cloud9: Yes, I'm of the opinion from what I've seen in the Word, that Adam was not THIS body of dust YET because until the disobedience, I think he dwelled in the heavenly realms, and the dust he was originally made from was like "gold dust" ie. a heavenly body.

This revelation was working on me this morning as I awoke. The tabernacle shows a progression beginning with the fallen state (outer court of animal skins/He put skins on them), BUT the end is shown as a new man which is composed of gold (speaks of the higher nature of God and His pre-fall creation), within and WITHOUT, which is shown in the construction of the Ark made of craptim wood (speaks of humanity).

The two coverings of gold represent the anointing within and without, accompanied by the glory cloud as the covering over the new creation man the Ark represents. Since we know that we were one with Him from the beginning, that means the END (Holy of Holies) is really our beginning!

This is further witnessed (to me at least) in that the ephod was made of GOLD, and covered the heart (soul) of man. We know that Adam was made a High Priest of God, we know Lucifer was a man who had every precious stone for his covering.

The soul is the vessel for the spirit (both good and bad) to express it's nature thru, ie. birth something. Because it is like a womb, it reproduces whatever seed is planted in it. He's had me on some deeper things regarding this lately, but I've not done the "homework" necessary yet to bring it forth. Blessings....

"The soul is the vessel for the spirit..." Yes, thats right!   Gen 2:7  So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.
A living soul is the vessel/body that the spirit abodes in.

Quote from: MicahA living soul is the vessel/body that the spirit abodes in.

But, some of us are saying the soul can leave this body of dust right now and still be living--whether the physical body is dead or alive.

And it seems to me that Cardinal was saying the soul is the vessel for the spirit.



31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

--Mat 22

Yes. a living soul is the body/vessel for the spirit. Without the body/vessel and spirit there is no living soul.

Quote from: Lefein on November 04, 2010, 12:06:31 AM

QuoteI dont see what you are saying. The Lord God formed man and made him a living soul not a spirit.

You can't have a living soul, without a spirit.

What is a dead soul?

 :cloud9: Adam before the Spirit breathed life in him.....

Amen, a life without Christ.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 04, 2010, 04:34:41 PM
:cloud9: Adam before the Spirit breathed life in him.....

So Adam was before Gen. 2:7?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2010, 04:38:59 PM


Amen, a life without Christ.

:bgdance:


But Adam did have Christ he walked and talked with him, he just did not have his spirit within him, I belive that's a special gift for belivers to overcome.

Quote from: rosered on November 05, 2010, 12:15:39 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 06:03:41 AM
Yes. a living soul is the body/vessel for the spirit. Without the body/vessel and spirit there is no living soul.

Finally I understand you  :thumbsup:
  so you say that  the body and spirit are the soul  than

Jam 2:26   For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and the Lord sent a tormenting spirit  that filled him with depression and fear.   this would trouble the soul /  self   /living being/activity of mind

   conscience  than Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon  (ftp://blue%20letter%20bible%20-%20lexicon)    being pure or defiled

    :thumbsup:

Glory! :bigGrin:

Would you show me where it says that in the Bible?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2010, 03:18:37 AM



Would you show me where it says that in the Bible?

Show you what Beloved? This  "a living soul is the body/vessel for the spirit. Without the body/vessel and spirit there is no living soul."
Jam 2:26   For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just what do you need? Please

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held


Do those souls have a body?