Christ's death

[micah7:9]

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own life?

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
Life, our living, as a soul/person does drive us. Our ego(self) is driven by the desires of the senses.

  I agree , but does that not what Jesus Christ come to change /our egos and save us from ?
  pride of life/soul  is what causes us to miss the mark  in the first place ?

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



the tree to make one wise and pleasent to the eyes  of percieving


lust when concived Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is not the living soul/human being/man/person, the vessel, from which the desires and lusts emit from when the self/ego is tempted?  The "soul" being tempted is the vessel, the vessel is the soul...there IS NO SOUL IN A vessel.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Rosie.....try clicking on the icon at the top of your browser that looks like a "torn" page outlined in green. It might help......I downloaded Google Chrome and it seems to have helped as it was doing that with me, too.

[rosered]

  Thanks Card... I will try that , looking for it ...  :laughing7:  i do not see any torn page on my brower page  Card  that is green or any color ????

[rosered]

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own life?

Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
Life, our living, as a soul/person does drive us. Our ego(self) is driven by the desires of the senses.

  I agree , but does that not what Jesus Christ come to change /our egos and save us from ?
  pride of life/soul  is what causes us to miss the mark  in the first place ?

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



the tree to make one wise and pleasent to the eyes  of percieving

26 "But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all.

27 What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!

28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[j]

lust when concived Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is not the living soul/human being/man/person, the vessel, from which the desires and lusts emit from when the self/ego is tempted?  The "soul" being tempted is the vessel, the vessel is the soul...there IS NO SOUL IN vessel.

we have a different way of seeing things Micah
  and am not sure what you mean   the vessel  has no soul but ,,the soul  is the vessel? to me the vessel is the  body of earth , the soul or life is what is tempted by  our own lusts from the ego or self 
  Christ centered  or self centered  , its the course or path to death or life in Christ

matt10 26 "But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all.


27 What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!

28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

   to be made miserable with no hope at all being empty
  thats what best describes my thoughts on this ..

[Lefein]

No.  It reads He made humanity, and he made two genders that constitute the human species; male, and female.

Why over complicate simplicity?

[thinktank]

Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created human in God's image, in the image of God, God created human; God created them, multiple humans male and female in God's image.

:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM. THEIR name was Adam (Adam named her Eve, not God), and Adam was/is both male and female in one, spirit and soul in one, as God proved by taking her from him. That is the PATTERN, just as Jesus and His body are male and female, ie. we are His bride. Blessings.....

Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created human in God's image, in the image of God, God created human; God created them, multiple humans male and female in God's image.

:cloud9: Male and female created He THEM. THEIR name was Adam (Adam named her Eve, not God), and Adam was/is both male and female in one, spirit and soul in one, as God proved by taking her from him. That is the PATTERN, just as Jesus and His body are male and female, ie. we are His bride. Blessings.....

So do you mean that when Adam ate of the tree he became a soul also?

Because by your definition, if Eve = soul and Adam = Christ, what become of Adam? How can Adam Christ fall?

To me I think there is something to what your saying, but I'm not yet seeing the puzzle fit together properly.

I see that your idea of restoration is different to mine, I think thats the problem. I tend to belive that the glory we have now is far greater than what Adam had, that we have the privelage of God living inside us, whereas Adam was only a portrait of Christ a replica of him, (I think you belive that Adam was made perfect in Christ), but we not only are a restored portrait of Adam but we have far more,we  have His will living within us, his very being in us, I don't believe Adam had Christ living within him.
so we in my opinion have a far greater glory than Adam ever had, for we have been given the privelage of having the holy spirit living within us crying abba father.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Adam was created both male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one. He was divided; she was taken out of his side. The side of Christ was pierced for "her", ie. the souls of men, to come under again, AS A COVERING, because Adam was not and could never be, a PERFECT covering for the soul of man. It's a picture of salvation, the salvation of the soul. God knew the soul could not stand without the spirit being IN UNION; a divided house cannot stand.

What obscures this, is the tendency for man to look at the flesh, and so seeing males and females after the flesh in the natural realm of experience, assumes that is what He meant when He said "male and female created He THEM", but are missing the fact THERE WAS NO FLESH YET, because there was no fall yet. Yet Adam, was both male and female. Blessings....

[Lefein]

Cardinal, I think you are getting far to into the esoteric interpretations of what should be plainly seen before you.

I don't see how your interpretations are correct in light of observable evidence from the Bible.  Men are not souless, and women are not spiritless.  Both have both/are both, what ever you want to determine from that perspective, point is that soul, and spirit are in the identity of both genders, they are not exclusive pieces.

The flesh (carnal selfishness) is not the same as a body.  We'll have a physical body in the resurrection, that doesn't mean that it is carnal.  Adam had a body from day one as far as I can see, a body of the dust of the ground, the same dust that will return to the ground from whence it came that you, and I currently wear, and that Christ himself wore on the Earth.

Adam was not a hermaphrodite, he was a he, and Eve was pulled from his side, in effect a female clone; she was not Adam's soul, she was his physical flesh, and bones; At last flesh from my flesh, bone of my bones!  No mention of the soul is made.

There might be a parable present in your interpretations, but it is perhaps...just that, a parable, rather than the literal truth of the matter.  In my opinion at any rate.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And where did I say that men were soul-less or women spirit-less??? I have been repeatedly saying THEY have BOTH, a spirit and a soul. It's clear you are not understanding me. Adam being the first, was a "prototype" of a deeper truth.

As for the "esoteric"; it's called, revelation. Google the acronymn PARDES for a definition of how the scriptures were understood to be approached. Blessings....

[Lefein]

Tell me again then...so I do understand.

Was Adam a hermaphrodite?  Why do you call Eve his soul?  And if Eve is his soul, where is Adam's soul?  I'll say this, part of the reason I am not understanding you is due most likely to the whole esoteric puzzle you're presenting.

It is growing overwhelmingly complicated (in my eyes) with every new, revelation.

[Molly]

Tell me again then...so I do understand.

Was Adam a hermaphrodite?  Why do you call Eve his soul?  And if Eve is his soul, where is Adam's soul?  I'll say this, part of the reason I am not understanding you is due most likely to the whole esoteric puzzle you're presenting.

It is growing overwhelmingly complicated (in my eyes) with every new, revelation.

Think of it as metaphor.  Not to say Adam and Eve weren't real, they were, but it can also be looked at as a teaching tool because of the many parallels between Jesus and Adam and us and Eve, and also soul and spirit.

[Lefein]

The metaphor I can understand, and even to some limit big or small agree with.  It is the literal idea of his hermaphrodism that causes contention.

[thinktank]

:cloud9: Adam was created both male and female in one, both soul and spirit in one. He was divided; she was taken out of his side. The side of Christ was pierced for "her", ie. the souls of men, to come under again, AS A COVERING, because Adam was not and could never be, a PERFECT covering for the soul of man. It's a picture of salvation, the salvation of the soul. God knew the soul could not stand without the spirit being IN UNION; a divided house cannot stand.

What obscures this, is the tendency for man to look at the flesh, and so seeing males and females after the flesh in the natural realm of experience, assumes that is what He meant when He said "male and female created He THEM", but are missing the fact THERE WAS NO FLESH YET, because there was no fall yet. Yet Adam, was both male and female. Blessings....

In that I too have looked at when God created Adam and Eve in his image, this is where spirits of men were made, or the first human spirits, dwelling without souls or the bodies.
But according to your theology, when Eve was taken out of Adam this represents Eve the inperefect soul before, Eve was seduced by the serpent. So are you saying man fell when Eve was taken out of Adam?
Were Men/Adam made physical because they rebelled?

[Molly]

The metaphor I can understand, and even to some limit big or small agree with.  It is the literal idea of his hermaphrodism that causes contention.

There is a difference between Adam and Eve besides their sex.  Adam was not deceived but Eve was --yes?  So Adam had something that Eve did not, that allowed him to not be deceived.  What would that be?

[Lefein]

From what I read of sola scriptura; The bottom line is that Eve was deceived, but Adam deliberately disobeyed.  God told Adam specifically not to eat of the fruit or dying he would die - there is no mention of Eve having been told that, only an implication, and perhaps it was Adam who told her (hence the added; shall not even touch it).

Notice, that Eve took a bite, but it was not until Adam took the bite that they realised they were naked, and tried to hide from God.

[micah7:9]

Wiill someone, anyone show me in the Word of God where man was given a soul?  That should be simple enough since you all seem to say that man has a soul. Thanks

I realize that this goes against all Ive been taught, still the Bible states what a soul is, is it possible that all this time man has interpreted in error? Much has been said here to explain how they believe, but so far I have not seen evidence in the Bible that shows the soul of man does anything. Everytime soul is used it can be changed to life, breath; perhaps even ego, self.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Molly......thanks......you said in a few words what I have been trying to explain......METAPHOR  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Gen 1:27  There is no metaphor here.

(ASV)  And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(CLV) And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
(KJV)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(Rotherham)  And God created the man in his own image, In the image of God, created he him,—Male and female, created he, them.

(YLT)  And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

[Lefein]

Micah, I know this isn't what you are searching for, but it might help you settle your search; Perhaps soul, much like olam...is a matter of context?

Soul in Genesis (and other verses) meaning "the whole being", and soul in other verses meaning something along the idea of "Essence of self; ego" or "the mind" or "the hidden man", in the same way that Olam in various contexts means different spans of time, instead of one solid measurement.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Did you happen to notice there, Micah, that the tenses changed in an unusual way? In the image of God created he HIM; him there was Adam and THEIR name was Adam. Male and female created He THEM. He created THEM, both male and female. God has a feminine side as well, and Adam therefore was created in the image of BOTH male and female, before the female "appeared" by his side. My  :2c: Blessings....

[thinktank]

Gen 1:27  There is no metaphor here.

(ASV)  And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(CLV) And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
(KJV)  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(Rotherham)  And God created the man in his own image, In the image of God, created he him,—Male and female, created he, them.

(YLT)  And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Genesis 6:5   
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

From the bible it seems to be that there are thoughts from the heart and also the spirit.

I think the heart might represent the soul and the spirit represents the image of God he made them Adam within each man. In fact that's a great way to explain Genesis 1 is to call the spirit of man within "Adam"
So my Adam thinks, but what is the soul? Is the soul the heart? [Eve], but whats the difference between heart thinking and spirit thinking? Is the heart better or more nobler or is the spirit?

Perhaps the spirit is Gods way of thinking, while the heart represents mans way of thinking. Mans thinking is based on the tree of good and evil, the heart produces either good thoughts or bad thought, hence the loveing and kind atheist, who loves people, but not God or the things of God, for his spirit is dead or to be more exact, dull of hearing to Gods ways.

The fall our spirits became evil, we cared not for God and our hearts did that which was evil, cared not for people.

Ezekiel 36:26 
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

But God cleanses our heart and renews our spirit,so we are no longer dead to Christ, but alive to him.

out of the heart procceds good and evil, even during the old testament.

So I believe the heart to be the center of what's called soul.
:2c:

[Molly]

Interesting.  Adam who represents spirit never utters another recorded word after they leave the garden.

Is that why Jesus is mute during his trials?


12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?

14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

--Mat 27

[Lefein]

Cardinal: Humanity - The Human Species was created in two separate genders.  Not one hermaphrodite individual who was later through some sort of divine surgery (that isn't even mentioned) divided into two genders.

Eve, an individual, was in essence cloned from Adam's rib, or side - the only divine surgery here is God pulling a rib out of Adam, and closing the side.  There is no mention of Adam having a womb removed, or a vulva, or breasts, or any thing that even constitutes the woman body.  Only his rib.  And from that rib, Woman was formed.

God made humanity, and made them male and female.  The Human, male, and pulled from him a rib, and made another human suitable for him who was a girl.

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: Did you happen to notice there, Micah, that the tenses changed in an unusual way? In the image of God created he HIM; him there was Adam and THEIR name was Adam. Male and female created He THEM. He created THEM, both male and female. God has a feminine side as well, and Adam therefore was created in the image of BOTH male and female, before the female "appeared" by his side. My  :2c: Blessings....

Thats exactly why I stated that it is NOT a metaphor.

[Molly]

"rib"

H6763
צלעה    צלע
tsêlâ‛  tsal‛âh
tsay-law', tsal-aw'
From H6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, that is, leaf); hence a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, that is, quarter); architecturally a timber (especially floor or ceiling) or plank (single or collectively, that is, a flooring): - beem, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).