This lady makes me get a big ball of anxiety in my chest sometimes if i think too hard about her. I don't think it's good for my health. :sigh: I write her off as being a false prophet or delusional... but there is one thing I'm curious about.
She said that she had 40 continuous dreams... i think in a row. Is that possible? That's the only thing that makes me worry.
And she said she saw Jesus while she was praying... Well... I don't believe the Jesus she saw was really Jesus, it just goes against too much of what Jesus teaches. (love your neighbor, do not judge others, forgive them - they do not know what they do, chastising the disciples that wanted to bring fire down on unbeliever's heads for denying Jesus was Christ... love God with all your heart and love each other... it doesn't fit with the Gospel Jesus at all)
I also think i heard she was in... a mental facility? That takes a lot of credibility away too.
And on some level... I think if Jesus really is like the Jesus she depicts, I wouldn't want to be close to him. she also said that at one time she wanted to be 'far far' away from Jesus (!?) What? NO Christian wants to be far away from Jesus. That makes no sense to me.
See, I personally believe in Near Death Experiences... (I don't want to get into an argument over whether they exist.. just my personal belief lol) but her depiction of hell doesn't fit the thousands of NDEs that have seen hellish realms. (NDE experiencers say they aren't permanent... it's more of that they exist because a soul is spiritually cut off from God... anyway) Her story also fits very well with the "Dante's inferno" depiction of hell.
And not to mention all the Biblical contradictions her 'experience' produced.
But really, the main issue I have is that she supposedly had 40 continuous dreams in a row, each night. I've heard of someone having like... five but never 40. Do you think that means anything?
Oh, I know that tentmaker published an article on her 'experience'... but I'd like to just have some other people give me some of their opinions on it... especially the 40 dreams in a row bit.
Oh dear, that book....
I did read it, however I think it is just another way to put fear in those that are not convinced God is love.
I also believe it is about money, isn't it strange how people are more drawn to misery than the love of God? :2c:
Lizzy,
Not about the 40 dreams but perhaps still usefull: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3204.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3204.0)
The meaning of 40? Exodus out of hell :laughhand:
Yes it is. :sigh: I heard she put her book up for e-download on her site in a few places... but that doesn't mean that she still isn't racking in the cash from the sales of it. It just has too many contradictions to the Bible for me to take her remotely seriously. I think she was having lucid dreams, or she really did see a hellish realm, but it wasn't from Jesus, it was what she expected to find. Or, demonic forces got a hold of her dreams.
The only thing I wonder about is having 40 continuous dreams in a row. I think she may have embellished that a bit. But, I have heard of other people having many continuous dreams... I doubt they were prophetic in nature either. lol
LOL, I was reading that topic earlier. I decided to make my own post becuase of the dream issue that I was wondering about.
Why is it that 40 facinates you so much?
If her first dream was a lie then likely all others are.
Besides 40 being a Biblical number; it's extra cool (hot in her case) to have so many dreams.
It can only mean a strong link with the spiritual. So her story will sell extra good.
Other people that (claim to) have experienced such visions always report they were completly drained of energy. That lack of energy is described in such strong wording it's impossible to have 40 of such dreams in row. She would be dead in 3-5 dreams.
I guess because the idea of anyone having 40 of these dreams that are continuous (which is very rare) lends more credibility to their story. I'm pretty gullible at times though. :sigh:
Quote40 of these dreams that are continuous lends more credibility to their story
What about satan? Do his lies become credibly because he has 40 billion of them in a row?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 23, 2010, 08:33:33 PM
Quote40 of these dreams that are continuous lends more credibility to their story
What about satan? Do his lies become credibly because he has 40 billion of them in a row?
Yes that's true. I guess just because having that many continuous dreams seems so rare to me. But even if they were 'inspired', they weren't 'inspired' by Jesus.
In this thread lizzybeth speaks of near death experiences, so is this a near death Paul is speaking of?
Was he speaking of himself?
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities." II Corinthians 12:2-5
Quote from: lizzybeth on March 23, 2010, 07:52:10 PM
This lady makes me get a big ball of anxiety in my chest sometimes if i think too hard about her. I don't think it's good for my health. :sigh: I write her off as being a false prophet or delusional... but there is one thing I'm curious about.
She said that she had 40 continuous dreams... i think in a row. Is that possible? That's the only thing that makes me worry.
Last night I dreamed I was a goldfish.
Go figure.
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/animals/aquatic/crabby.gif)
I think this woman is either mentally unstable or just a flat out fraud. I left a rebuking message on their website for her because her portrayal of an NDE contradicts all others I have read.
Don't want to sidetrack this discussion into one about NDEs because I know many here believe in 'soul sleep' (which I disagree with) but it was study of NDEs that lead me to believe in UR.
Shame on Mary Baxter. I hope she gets 15 minutes of what she described.
Quote from: Zero7 on March 31, 2010, 11:57:28 PMit was study of NDEs that lead me to believe in UR.
Zero you may like this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7822.0
Quote from: Yab Yum on March 23, 2010, 11:04:47 PM
Quote from: lizzybeth on March 23, 2010, 07:52:10 PM
This lady makes me get a big ball of anxiety in my chest sometimes if i think too hard about her. I don't think it's good for my health. :sigh: I write her off as being a false prophet or delusional... but there is one thing I'm curious about.
She said that she had 40 continuous dreams... i think in a row. Is that possible? That's the only thing that makes me worry.
Last night I dreamed I was a goldfish.
Go figure.
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/animals/aquatic/crabby.gif)
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL :LH:
Yeah Lizzybeth (love the name by the way!) I used to worry about these types of things as well, but like you said, it completely goes against the Jesus we know. I believe it is completely false, whether they did make it up or whether they truly had some type of dream and truly do believe it. And like Yab Yum, we dream some pretty crazy things sometimes. That certainly does not make them true, although it does tell us something about what is going on in our subconscious mind. (Not sure what being a goldfish means though LOL)
From my understanding, this woman was part of a very legalistic Pentecostal cult that would tell the parishoners that they lost their salvation for all kinds of stuff like dancing, having too low of a skirt, and other stupid stuff. Unfortunately in the Evangelical churches, the idea of unending hellfire is a very important doctrine to them, so they will cling to anything to support their beliefs. In fact many of these Evangelicals claim that the Well to Hell hoax is actually real, despite the fact it has been proven wrong. They are typically not the most educated people. So, these evangelicals would be more than happy to defend this idea of supernatural portrayal of hell. Yet they are so adamant to say that any experiences of a loving God is satanic "Itching of Ears". Go figure. But there are psychological reasons people see this stuff, like Mary Baxter. For example, St. Theresa Avila claimed that she saw Lutherans going down to hell, and many Catholics actually believe this dung. But she was a reformation era Mystic, and Lutherans believed that Catholics would go to hell, and Catholics believed Lutherans were going to hell. Plus Satan is a powerful being, and can decieve anyone into such filth. Satan wants to taint Gods reputation of Love to this angry God who gets kicks off of torturing people for all eternity. Its best to ignore that filth.
"I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, 'I had a dream, I had a dream!'
"How long? Is there anything in the hearts of the prophets who prophesy falsehood, even these prophets of the deception of their own heart, who intend to make My people forget My name by their dreams which they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My name because of Baal?
"The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD. "Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?
"Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other. "Behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who use their tongues and declare, 'The Lord declares.'
"Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams," declares the LORD, "and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit," declares the LORD.
(Jer 23:25-32)
Jer 29:8 "For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, 'Do not let your prophets who are in your midst and your diviners deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams which they dream.
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
(Col 2:18-19)
Probably the one issue in these documented experiences that kind of sticks with me is the subject meets Jesus Christ personally (supposedly). I recall Bill Wiese's story of being with Christ and the perfect love and peace Bill says he experienced while being with Christ. Somewhere in Bill's story, Christ supposedly says that some of His people do not believe in hell. So at least according to Bill's account, Christ acknowledges saving some who do NOT believe in hell. Bill refers to the perfect peace and His love that casts out all fear.
So to me the real core $64,000 question is ... is this really THE C H R I S T in Bill Wiese's, Mary Baxter's, and many other testimonies (including NDEs) that escorts these
subjects through their respective personal tours of a fiery hell (therefore supposedly validating not only their respective experiences, but also re-enforcing the validity of
the doctrine of fiery tormenting hell)???
Essentially, Jesus Christ seems to be portrayed as compassionate, yet profoundly heart-broken when visiting hell's inmates, but in the end, seems to walk away as if to say this is the well deserved fate of all of hell's citizens, via sinful living, resisting the Gospel of Christ, or being deceived. It's not clear in Bill's book if it is a permanent (eternal) sentence - I can't recall because when I read Bill's book, I was still very reluctantly in
the ET camp, therefore assumed eternal punishment was a given and wasn't really
looking for that.
Per scripture, Satan can transform Himself into an angel of light. Can Satan impersonate Christ to the point of giving off this convincing "love that casts
out all fear" personna (again according to testimonies such as Bill Wiese)???
I would think Satan's (or a demon's) lack of love and its overwhelming
selfishness, pride, and malice would slip out somewhere ... I would think.
When the subjects pray or call upon Jesus's name, Jesus appears, comforts
and rescues the subject. Conversly, just the name of Jesus, let alone his arrival seems
to scare off any and all demonic creatures - according to the subjects' testimony.
I realize we are to refer to Scripture as our last Word in principle.
But of course, even here on this blog, being about UR, we realize that there are
texts or words in the English translations that are up for question. In a link I
read through (found above in this very blog), it was mentioned by regulars/veterans
here that YES we respect the Scriptures, but there is also an openness to the possibility for extra-Biblical revelation, that we cannot box God into a book per se.
Anyway those are my remaining 2 questions concerning these testimonies:
1. Was that really Jesus Christ that they personally met?
2. Knowing that Satan can transform Himself into an angel of light, is he that good -
to the point of impersonating/impostering Jesus Christ along with what might
be a convinicing vibe of perfect love and compassion?
God/Christ is omnipresent but I guess Jesus can always "leave" His seat at
the right hand of the Father while making intercession for us and randomly
come on down and give personal tours of hell - I guess.
Bill Wiese BTW (if you're wondering about his doctrinal/church/denominational profile)
might fellowship in the Calvary Chapel (Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Chuck Missler,
Raul Ries, etc). I know this because my wife met Bill in a Calvary
Chapel fellowship nearby. In fact, being a real estate agent, I believe Raul Ries
was a client of his during the very time Bill went through this experience.
He mentions Chuck Missler in the book as well so it's possible Bill does fellowship
in a Calvary Chapel somewhere in the SoCal area.
Therefore, Bill Wiese probably doesn't come from an doctrinally excessive
or extreme environment - for whatever that's worth.
The doctrinal profile of a person does not prevent them from being deceived by a spirit or a dream or a vision. What a powerful vision Christ experienced in the temptation on the mount. "It is written" He replied, to each of the enemies attempts to subvert the will of God in Jesus.
The only way I can see a vision of "hell" being real is perhaps as an allegorical view of the horror of carnal living, living in death, living in the old Adam. Think of it- divorce, adultery, hatred, bitterness, drug addiction, mental illness- all the torments of life lived "outside the city". I can easily see being tossed in flames of torment as a proper vision of the pain of the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once walked, dead in trespasses and sins- hating one another and hostile to God and the life that is in God.
But the scriptures prohibit me from accepting anyones vision of multitudes of beings tormented eternally in flames. How shall all things be summed up in Christ(Eph 1:10)? How shall God become all in all(1 Cor 15:28)? How shall the last enemy, death, be destroyed- if multitudes are tortured in the lake of fire, which is the second death, forever(1 Cor 15:26)? How shall God have reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross(Col 1:20)?
Quote from: eaglesway on April 06, 2010, 07:58:22 AM
The doctrinal profile of a person does not prevent them from being deceived by a spirit or a dream or a vision. What a powerful vision Christ experienced in the temptation on the mount. "It is written" He replied, to each of the enemies attempts to subvert the will of God in Jesus.
The only way I can see a vision of "hell" being real is perhaps as an allegorical view of the horror of carnal living, living in death, living in the old Adam. Think of it- divorce, adultery, hatred, bitterness, drug addiction, mental illness- all the torments of life lived "outside the city". I can easily see being tossed in flames of torment as a proper vision of the pain of the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once walked, dead in trespasses and sins- hating one another and hostile to God and the life that is in God.
But the scriptures prohibit me from accepting anyones vision of multitudes of beings tormented eternally in flames. How shall all things be summed up in Christ(Eph 1:10)? How shall God become all in all(1 Cor 15:28)? How shall the last enemy, death, be destroyed- if multitudes are tortured in the lake of fire, which is the second death, forever(1 Cor 15:26)? How shall God have reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross(Col 1:20)?
:Yesss:
Our subconscious level of understanding is like the natural ocean. Man hasn't even scratched the surface of understanding it's perimeters, it's secrets, it's depths. But there are some things that they do understand. The power of persuation being one of them. Subliminal messaging another. You can watch a scary movie and your mind will bring back images while you sleep that seem so real but it was just a movie.
Yet people have the same thing happen while they set in the pews on Sundays and images of hell, heaven, death and demons are imprinted on their minds. They have dreams and because they had a dream, they put more value in that than they do in the nature of Christ himself. God can and does use dreams, but dreams in and of themselves are not truth.
The same mind at emnity with God is also what projects dreams and visions. The difference is identifying with the "sound" versus the "noise". Sound always illuminates truth, bringing freedom, life and light to a situation or person. Noise simply puffs up. It does the same as information. Doctrines are built on information. Life births from individual relationship. Information does not birth life, it only reflects what already exists.
Much of the reason why 10 people can get 10 different meanings from the same passage of Scripture is because each individual tries to interpret it through their personal perception. I embrace Scripture for what it is, a means of affirmation of what the Spirit is already saying to my spirit. Not proof, simply affirmation. Because my subconscious is affected by doctrines and outside influences, I can't rely on my mind to accurately discern what the passage is saying when pursuing the spiritual content.
Walking in the spirit renews the mind, bringing clarity not to what I already know, but to what can't be seen or understood by my own reasoning. What this generation is now entering into is a whole new approach . . .Truth is finally being revealed and it's breaking down the barriers of belief systems built by men.
Amen Nathan
QuoteMuch of the reason why 10 people can get 10 different meanings from the same passage of Scripture is because each individual tries to interpret it through their personal perception. I embrace Scripture for what it is, a means of affirmation of what the Spirit is already saying to my spirit. Not proof, simply affirmation. Because my subconscious is affected by doctrines and outside influences, I can't rely on my mind to accurately discern what the passage is saying when pursuing the spiritual content.
This is very true. Jesus himself said "you search the scriptures and think you have life but you do not"...
Far too many christians read the scriptures then seek interpretation of them and then confirmation of them. But the scriptures themselves say to "live from every word that comes from the mouth of God". This means to use the scriptures to "confirm what you are hearing from God Himself first". We have the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us. He speaks to us in our spirits. What we hear from Him , we then go to the scriptures to seek out confirmation. That is the proper use of the scriptures. Not taking a verse or verses from the bible and then trying to "prove them right". Because you will be able to "prove all things" through scripture through doing this. You can even prove "stoning rebellious children" etc etc. All things can be proved in scripture. BUT NOT if we are seeing scripture for what they are. A way to confirm what "you hear from the mouth of God". Just as the Bereans did when they heard Paul preach. They heard from Pauls mouth. Then searched the scripture to see if it was truth or not.
As far as the 40 dreams this woman had in a row. The bible is full of sorceries and witchcraft and calling up the dead and magicians and those have false dreams and visions etc etc etc. None of these were from God. So there is very much spiritual happenings that have nothing to do with God and us and His Kingdom. They are from the enemy solely to deceive. You had a long list of doubts and legitimate ones about the validity of this womans source and of the dreams themselves but yet you got stuck on the "one" in question of the 40 dreams in a row. I think you need to trust the Holy Spirit as it sounds to me He has already spoken to you about the falseness of these dreams in the long list of doubts you had. One paticular in question does not make the rest disappear. All things false can have "a sound of truth" to it. Just think of the things that satan said to Jesus in the temptation. (which by the way was for 40 days). Every thing satan said was truth. But it was twisted for "his purposes". It was also the Spirit that led Christ to the wilderness to be tempted.
We need to hold on to what we know. Period. Don't let the tempter deceive you. When you have received truth. Don't deviate from it.
Even John the Baptist "questioned" truth. He sent ones to ask if Jesus was really the Christ. Even after baptising our Lord. Even after seeing the Spirit decend as a dove upon Him.
There will be many more deceivers come your way through walking with Christ. Keep your eyes straight ahead , pressing towards the "prize of the HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus".
If this woman was legitimate,, she would not want to be selling and making money off what "God freely gives". That alone shows she is not of the "elect".
333, you are the first person I've come across that sees the purpose of Scripture in the same manner as I. I've found people take offense when you tell them things like the Bible is not the final answer, it's simply the affirmation of what your inward man is already hearing. The Bible in your lap is not the inspired word of God, it's merely a translation of it. Using the Bible as proof to build your doctrine was not the original intent for it being written. It's to testify what the Spirit is saying. It's not for "proving" anything. Proof is not faith. Proof is embracing what you "can' see rather than walking where you "can't" see.
I do beleive that's why we are so at odds with each other so often when pertaining to spiritual matters within the body of Christ. It's been engrained in us through traditional teaching of our forefathers that faith comes through "reading the Bible" and that's just not the case. Faith comes through "hearing" the sound of Truth. The sound comes from the Word, which is Chirst himself. Those who hear the sound, receive the Word, which then proclaim the principles of the kingdom of the Spirit to manifest in the realm of the earth. The Scriptures simply attest to the Word going forth. By the witness of two . . .
We touched on this in our class last night when dealing with Adam's proclamation over Eve when God presented her to him for the first time. An odd statement was inserted there that has always seemed a bit out of place for me. When Adam proclaimed "At last, bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh, she will be called woman" Adam named her, he gave her, her identity. This was a great celbrative moment. But then, it throws in the part . . ."for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife . . ."
It never really fit for me. Until last night. We're called to walk in the spirit, not in the flesh. We're told that "flesh profits nothing". So in reading Scripture, I consider the natural understanding, but I pursue the spiritual intent. It's more than just a man and woman, this experience taking place is actually the wedding of spirit (Adam) and soul (Eve). God was establishing the original alignment of man. Spirit having authority over soul (mind) and flesh (carnality). We all have these same traits in us. We all have an Adam (spirit), an Eve (soul) and a serpent (carnality/flesh) in us.
When Adam and Eve reunited and became one flesh, Adam was to leave his father and mother. Who is our spiritual father and mother? It's not my mom and Dad, it's not the person who led me to Jesus, it's the doctrines and belief systems that tutored me. The traditions of "men" are my forefathers. They parented me, they taught me, they raised me to a level of maturity that would eventually lead to spiritual independance from them. But unless there's a marriage between my heart and mind, there can be no reproduction of his nature through me.
Until I return to the original alignment God first established in me, I'm unable to leave my parental control. When Adam ate of the fruit, it wasn't just the fruit that caused the fall. All the fruit did was put him in the dimension of this natural world we now call earth. The fall was when he "received" the fruit from Eve. My spirit is to never be fed by my mind. My mind is to always be in submission to my spirit. This is how I see what Paul was saying to the infant church of Corinth where women were to be silent so the men could hear the message and take it back to their wives.
My woman is my mind, she's the wife of my spirit. My head must be silent so my heart can receive Truth. But when we rely on our knowledge of what the Bible is saying, we're not being fed by our spirit, we are trying to feed our spirit with our mind and all it does is pervert the Truth.
Nathan, prior to your last post, you've also said we don't need to study translations and concordances.
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15.
When did this change?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7383.msg84791#msg84791
Okay, first, let's bear in mind the context. The words written are a great help for those who depend on the written word. But there's a time that comes in every believer's life where the Word actually goes from speaking "to" them from the outside, to speaking "through" them on the inside.
Does Scripture not also say that the word will no longer be on stone, but it will "change" to being written in our hearts? The people Paul was writing to and referring to were people who were bran-new in their walk. Paul also states when he was a child, he spoke as a child.
If we are becoming as mature in Christ as we claim, why then do we want to embrace elementary tools for advanced growth? Before Peter had his revelation of who Jesus was, Jesus' main focus was on teaching them the principles of "the kingdom of God/heaven." But immediately after that experience where Peter's name was changed from Simon to Peter, Jesus then changed the emphasis of his ministry to his up-coming death, burial and resurrection.
I've never said don't read the Bible. But I do believe we do just what Peter warned against in that old thread that was pulled up dealing with the Baxter lady where someone quoted Peter's statement about no prophecy is left up to private interpretation. We do it all the time. We interpret pretty much every verse we read by our "private" interpretation and then wonder why there's so much head-butting going on.
I whole-heartedly agree that we should let Scripture interpret itself. I believe God established patterns in the beginning and those patterns never changed throughout the rest of what he inspired to be written. If I want to learn about the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the best way to grasp it is to go to the tabernacle, the very first place where man was instructed to assemble a system that was patterned after the nature of Christ. Scripture interprets Scripture.
By the way, for me, 40 symbolizes birthing. Romans 1:20 is a platform for this in that God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truth. A woman takes 40 weeks from conception to birth. With that, when applying the principle to every situation in Scripture where 40 is specifically mentioned, we see "something" was birthed out of all of it.
It rained 40 days and 40 nights . . .birthed a new earth. Goliath taunted Israel for 40 days, then David shut him down. It birthed a new lineage of kingship for a nation. They wandered around in the wilderness for 40 years, that actually birthed a nation, as well as a promised land became a reality. 40 days Jesus was tempted . . .birthed his ministry. 40 days he was on the earth after the ascension, birthed the church in the upper room. It goes on and on.
As for the latter verse, for me, it's not advocating many hours of studying. It's emphasizing that as you read the Scriptures, you will find they declare you are approved. We're putting the emphasis on the wrong part of the passage. It's just the way of this realm. Everything we think is opposite of how God things. We think someone should be first, spiritually they come in last. We think someone here should be the least, spiritually they are the greatest. When we "study" we rely on our personal understanding. The more information, the more facts, the more we try to retain spiritual things, the harder it is to understand the actual truth that's there. Because you simply can't mix spiritual truth with natural reasoning.
Lastly, we're not living in the same day as those who Paul was speaking to. They were in days of labor, we're now in days of rest. We use Scripture to "build" doctrines and belief systems. Jesus stated "Tear this temple down and in three days, I'll raise it up."
He said that 2000 years ago (2 days). This is the third day. The old temple is being torn down and the new one is being resurrected in it's place.
Hi Nathan. Just as Jesus said "you study the scripture and think you have life but you do not". Life is Jesus. It is Him we are to seek. To fellowship with. True followers of the Lord Jesus Christ will seek to hear from Him. Scriptures are good for affirming what we hear first hand from Him. "His sheep know His voice". Those who receive first hand from the Lord Himself ALL receive the same thing and are in unity one with another. It is when we try to lean on our own understanding and try to prove everything by scripture that the disputes comes in. I have no time for that.
here is a link also about this same matter. There is an excellent writing about what or who is the TRUE WORD OF GOD. About the scriptures. Anyone truly interested in "growing spiritually" this is a place that has many excellent writings.
http://www.growthingod.org.uk/english.htm
As for the number 40. There is an excellent book called "Numbers in Scripture and their Spiritual Significance" by E.W Bullinger
This is an extremely helpful informative book.
I'm liking your sound, man. your words are music to my soul.
Mod Note-
Nathan;
As far as context, that's your interpretation and that's fine, but that doesn't necessarily set it in stone.
Nathan and 333;
Please continue to share all the spiritual insights you feel led to do. Just please both review the link in my last post and don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Many ARE little ones, new in the faith, or have NO faith. Gary's focus for this site is to minister to and share information with people coming through here who are beginning to consider UR, and who need help with that. Many other things are allowed, but within limits.
I'm not
talking about idolotry
stating that we have a perfect translation
stating all have to understand it all the same
touting one translation over another
saying Jesus isn't the Word made flesh
saying Jesus doesn't speak to us
saying we want debating over doctrines, head-butting, leaning to own understanding, etc.
I am saying
we've had too many come through that have trashed the scriptures, including diminishing their importance
we do need to "have the time" to observe the forum guidelines
we will not allow things to get anywhere close to where things were before, including disrespect for the scriptures
things are pretty spelled out regarding expectations if one takes the time to look
anything you claim to be spiritually revealed, if truly the case, will check out with the witness of the scriptures
this will be moderated accordingly
No one will benefit from our high levels of spirituality if that includes discouraging people (especially little ones) from going to the scriptures - even subtly suggesting so. Yes, Jesus said what He said about "scriptures..think you have life". However, I believe there was also a context to that. They were missing Him. He also had plenty to say about the scriptures Himself, including that His words would not pass away. If any of us is truly a spiritual leader, I believe we will keep in mind the little ones/those weak in the faith.
The link I provided is pretty clear, but if you have any further questions please feel free to PM me.
Thanks, James.
He also replied to Satan on the mount of temptation, "It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." The relationship between the written word and the sword of the Spirit/living word is what makes the word "oracle" so precious. As oracles, the scriptures are of the utmost value and integral to all of God's revelation- "Today, if you hear His voice".
Quotewe will not allow things to get anywhere close to where things were before, including disrespect for the scriptures
I'm sorry . There was never no intent to disrespect scriptures. There was never no intent to diminish the importance of scripture either. I don't believe I have done either. I myself read the scripture all the time and they are vitally important to me. My point simply was and is that most call the scripture the "Word of God". They are "scripture" Jesus referred to them as scripture. Jesus is the "Word of God". That is something all christians need to realize and understand if they truly want to grow spiritually. Jesus is the door. The way to the Father. The scripture was written down and given to us and are VITALLY important but should never take the place of communing with or fellowshipping with our Lord. Even the very young need to know this for true spiritual growth.
Scripture is extremely important ESPECIALLY when it comes to prophecy for the church!! If they were not then God would not of taken the time to have them written down and given to all throughout all the generations. But the pharisee's read the scriptures. They knew bible prophecy inside and out. They should of reconized the Lord when He came. But they MISSED IT. Because they were relying solely on scripture and head knowledge of them. They were not HEARING FROM GOD FOR THEMSELVES!
I'm sorry but even NEW BABES IN CHRIST need THIS TRUTH!
delete me if you want but I follow God not man.
I gotta tell ya, when I first read your warning yesterday, I was actually stunned. I just sat and stared at the screen not believing what I was reading. It was heavy on my mind all night last night and first thing this morning. I was really at a loss as to what to do with this. Should I simply leave once again, and just not come back? Should I make a huge fuss against what was said? There's got to be a happy medium in there somewhere.
I found it really strange that for the entirety of yesterday, there was a boxing match going on on another thread and I saw no mention of concern for the little ones over there. Yet what I've written got red-flagged because I supposedly have trashed, disrespected, and diminished the importance of the Scriptures? Discouraging others from going to the Scriptures? Really? That's how what I wrote was interpreted? If many here believe this is true, then I have failed all of you miserably.
As far as I'm concerned, Scripture is the launching pad. It's out of Scripture that we become aware of the voice of the Word at all. I've never said studying the Bible is wrong. I've never said studying the Bible is useless. Everything I've shared is with the intent that all of us grow in it and let it grow in us. Growth is everything. If we're not growing, we're dying. Change is always inevidible. My whole point from the beginning of this topic is not that we walk away from our Bibles, but that we become better stewards with what we've been given.
I believe even the Bible can become idolized by people who think their minds can contain it all. But I've tried to be as clear as I could when I delve into these areas that I'm not trying to build a doctrine here. I'm just sharing where I'm at with things and if you disagree, there's no hardship over it. I'm not going to bring any condemnation on anyone because the truth is, as I grow, what I see today could very well change by tomorrow.
How many times in Scripture did Jesus say one thing but mean something totally different? How many times were people frustrated with him and want him to just come out and say it? Even the dicsiples queried him about why was everything in parables. If Jesus whole ministry was full of "double meaning" why are we so surprised that the Scriptures are as well? Even when he was putting the parables out there . . . for who's benefit was it? The mature or the little ones . . .or for everyone on different levels?
I totally agree with your ending remarks. Jesus stated the familiar passage about people thinking that by searching the Scriptures they will find life but can't because they missed him. But why would that not still apply here? Has any "one" of us not missed him on one level or another? Do we still not miss his voice from time to time? For me, every time my head gets in the way, I greatly risk hearing or seeing his purpose on any given day.
And if I've projected myself to be on a "high level of spirituality" I again apologize for that also. I believe I see what I see the same way anyone sees anything of God, it's through his grace. It's not through anything of my own merit. For the little ones, can we not teach by example? If we believe we are enabled to fly in his truth, can we not take flight so that the "little ones" can not only see, but also experience what we're talking about?
And truly, everything we/I talk about really does need to be in alignment with Scripture. I've never felt otherwise. For me, what has happened to me personally is, when my mind began being transformed, the same Bible I had before now has such a deeper meaning for me. Disrespect and disabing Scirpture has never been my intent. If anything, I embrace it all the more. But I now pursue the patterns beneath that raise my awareness of his presence and truth even more. The deep calls to the deep. I just want to be able to answer to that call.
Hey Nathan, I hope you don't go or leave, :sigh: as far as revelations and scriptures I think they have to agree, from my read don't see a disagreement with you and scriptures.
I have really been enjoying your posts.
Ditto.
And there is agreement with Eaglesway's and Nathan's posts.
They may not see it subjectively, but objectively they're not at opposition to each other and seemingly to the Scriptures.
It's easy to see the accuser working as a corporeal spirit in the mind of a single individual.
That's rock-n-roll, advertising and the whole conformity to the spirit of this world that Romans 12 warns us about.
Yes the serpent grew to a dragon.
I am glad we agree Beloved Servant, I thought I missed something. :thumbsup:
Nathan, I really like the sum of your last post. You may not have intended at all to minimize the scriptures, just as I didn't say you were trashing them. Ah, perception. I said it had occurred in the past, and that things were no longer being allowed to even approach where things were before. In discussions with Gary and within the admin board, and in large part due to much of the ridiculous food fighting that occurred in the past, it's been decided that things would be moderated even more tightly. That's not always fun or necessarily pleasant, but for good reasons and is a firm decision at this point.
As far as the other thread, it's being monitored with the forum guidelines in mind. It's bordered on crossing the line at times, but the participants have kept pulling it back in. The one thing that may be an ongoing issue there is the actual "debate" aspect, which I agree, may need further attention - and has already been under consideration. However, any further discussion of the moderation aspects of that thread, as well as this one, probably needs to go to PM.
If I've erred in this matter in some way, I apologize. I believe there's a legitimate point to be made, but probably not each and every aspect, as I'm very aware that handling most situations absolutely perfectly is quite elusive to me. I apologize for that piece. In the same vein, if we can go by the spirit of your last post, including "there's got to be a happy medium in there somewhere", and as SQ said "as far as revelations and scriptures I think they have to agree", that would be great.
Let's don't quench the Spirit, in all things, let's just make sure it is the Spirit we're hearing. And as you did say in one of your earlier posts about the scriptures, and I agree, the Spirit and the scriptures bear witness with each other. :thumbsup: