I went to the bookstore and found a book called "Hell" by Bill Wiese talking about that we have to accept that even a loving God created Hell for those who don't believe, he said in the book I read in chapter one that it's not our decision why God create hell, it's God's way and God's will and also it not up to our choose but God, he also explain that God love us.
Now, that's kinda funny, a huge heavy book trying to convince people Hell do existed and I look at his website
http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm
He said the demon enjoying torturing people there in hell, and said that Jesus told him that "tell them I am coming very soon!"
It's like Jesus telling him: "Tell the world that they are lost! They will go to hell, very few are saved!"
Bill didn't get it, does he?
Because I found a weapon to used against him! I FOUND IT IN THE BIBLE ITSELF!!!!!!!
Good news!
Bill said that demon laughing and seem to enjoyed in hell, but GET THIS:
Why when Jesus heal the demon-prosession boy and then the demon ask Jesus: "Please, don't send us back to hell! Send us to that pigs over there!" and the whole pig jump into the ocean and died.
AH-HA!!!!!!!! WHY THE DEMON AFRAID TO GO BACK TO HELL?!?!
IF THE DEMON IS AFRAID TO GO BACK TO HELL, THEN WHY BILL'S VISION OF DEMON SEEM TO ENJOYING IT!!
Every hell-fearing people who see hell said the same thing about demon enjoying hell like party!
Is this what god send "strong delusion that people should believe in a lie for they don't love the truth"
can i ask you guys something?
I find it weird when god said "they don't love the truth"
"love the truth".....huh?
How can I love the truth if someone who will be burn forever?
Quote from: IceDash on January 31, 2009, 10:18:45 PM
IF THE DEMON IS AFRAID TO GO BACK TO HELL, THEN WHY BILL'S VISION OF DEMON SEEM TO ENJOYING IT!!
Bill is a cash-demon...
QuoteHe surrendered his life to Christ at age 16.
Jesus Christ or Anti Christ?
Bill Wieses book is debunked on this hardcore BBQ site: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_wiese.htm
is there any good website I can learn to read greek that Jesus used at the past?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2009, 10:44:56 PM
Quote from: IceDash on January 31, 2009, 10:18:45 PM
IF THE DEMON IS AFRAID TO GO BACK TO HELL, THEN WHY BILL'S VISION OF DEMON SEEM TO ENJOYING IT!!
Bill is a cash-demon...
QuoteHe surrendered his life to Christ at age 16.
Jesus Christ or Anti Christ?
Bill Wieses book is debunked on this hardcore BBQ site: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_wiese.htm
whitewings, are you UR? that website you gave me also believe in hell, lol, it still the same "torment forever in burning hell" believer, it like telling people there no purple color when they have a purple color as well.
I'm sorta atheist IceDash. :sigh:
But also more UR that ET.
The reason I gave you that website is that even hell preachers say that the Wiese book is a lie.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2009, 11:17:03 PM
I'm sorta atheist IceDash. :sigh:
But also more UR that ET.
The reason I gave you that website is that even hell preachers say that the Wiese book is a lie.
lol and also a hypocrite, what make you a atheist and what make you come here often?
Quotelol and also a hypocrite
That was a little uncalled for. He would be a hypocrite if claimed he was something he wasn't.
he mention Hell is real and will burn you, it the same as Bill's way.
Quote from: IceDash on January 31, 2009, 11:39:34 PM
he mention Hell is real and will burn you, it the same as Bill's way.
So because they both speak of hell they believe the same?
That's like saying Christianity = Islam.
They both believe in a God, hell, paradise, etc.
I am still have hard time understand the loving God who KNOW EVERYTHING made hell for wimpy puny human to be burn forever. It's unsettled.
Quote from: IceDash on January 31, 2009, 11:19:22 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2009, 11:17:03 PM
I'm sorta atheist IceDash. :sigh:
But also more UR that ET.
The reason I gave you that website is that even hell preachers say that the Wiese book is a lie.
lol and also a hypocrite, what make you a atheist and what make you come here often?
:laughing7:
Well, read my fist post on this forum. I made no secret of it. You can say I don't belong here. But a hypocrite is someone that hides his true mind.
That said, I think (hardly) noone is 100% sure of anything.
The Christian is 99% believer and 1% atheist.
The atheist is 1% believer and 99% atheist.
Don't pin me down on the numbers....
Perhaps it's the 1% that draws me here. Plus the I like the research and links to science.
but aren't you afraid of what if hell is real? Do you ever feel sometime like that?
Quote from: IceDash on January 31, 2009, 11:53:10 PM
I am still have hard time understand the loving God who KNOW EVERYTHING made hell for wimpy puny human to be burn forever. It's unsettled.
According to UR:
a] There is no real fire.
b] There is no everlasting punishment.
According to ET:
Wrong site.... :laughing7:
was it because UR using "wishful thinking?"
We can't be a potter if we are a pot.
Quote from: IceDash on February 01, 2009, 12:01:29 AM
but aren't you afraid of what if hell is real? Do you ever feel sometime like that?
Yes a little.
But say I'm extremely afraid of hell.
What does that make me?
a] A Christian? -> Is more than able to spell the word hell
b] A muslim? -> they also believe in hell
c] Just scared? -> doesn't exactly cover all Jesus thaught...
I know, Love is not fear
also the "good news"
more people in hell than heaven isn't exactly good news.
Quote from: IceDash on February 01, 2009, 12:05:49 AM
was it because UR using "wishful thinking?"
ET people say it's wishful thinking. Or other even more negative terms like heretics.
As you likely have guessed the people on this forum have many verses to prove otherwise.
QuoteWe can't be a potter if we are a pot.
It's the potter that wrote the UR rules (Bible) not the pot.
The pots on this forum are just discussing what the potter wrote.
Quote from: IceDash on February 01, 2009, 12:09:08 AM
I know, Love is not fear
also the "good news"
more people in hell than heaven isn't exactly good news.
The way I see it when i look at the mess on earth I say "more" is an understatement.
Most, majority, almost all, would be closer.
The good news is not that there are no bad times. The good news is that eventually
all people end at Gods side.
Note: Bad times does not mean "only 5 trillion years in a lava pool"
Just in case you didn't know there is a lot reading on this site that explains UR.
This hypocrite has read it almost all.
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
When down also read the 'summary' about hell: :flamebreath: :heat:
http://bible-truths.com/
About 1/3 down the page: The "Lake of Fire" Series.
why can't hell preacher see that? Have they ever try to put their hand on the frying pan for at least 5 second?
Quote from: IceDash on February 01, 2009, 12:19:23 AM
why can't hell preacher see that? Have they ever try to put their hand on the frying pan for at least 5 second?
I truely don't know.
I could qoute some verses saying they are blinded.
But how can I (largely atheist) claim they are more blinded than me because I at least see that part.
If any one of these guys can get to hell, they can take me there and I'll come back with a report.
Very good exchange WW and ID. WW, if it's only 1% (I think it's more than that, but I won't "pin you down on the percent" :laughing7:) that keeps you coming back, you're very welcome to be here as far as I'm concerned, and you add a lot to the forum.
ID, I was thinking earlier today about your post of UR as being "wishful thinking". I thought to myself to post to you, that when you "see it, it will all start to come together" for you...the scriptures will start to make sense as you explore them, you'll see UR throughout ALL the Bible...all those verses WW says can be quoted. ALL nations will be blessed, there will be no more curse, no more tears, All will be made new, on and on. Old Testament to New. But you have to start seeing it first, then it just starts fitting together.
So, just a few minutes ago I saw your post on God being the Lake of Fire, and the same Fire that cleanses and purifies the sin (and as Nathan said) cleanses [destroys] the nature of man. It seemed like you had one of those "man, I see it" moments. :thumbsup:. Hang in there, keep reading, be open to what God has for you. He will show you...keep digging though, because He said it's His glory to hide a matter, and the honor of kings to search it out. God is good, and even better than we realize.
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: jabcat on February 01, 2009, 05:51:50 AM
Very good exchange WW and ID. WW, if it's only 1% (I think it's more than that, but I won't "pin you down on the percent" :laughing7:) that keeps you coming back, you're very welcome to be here as far as I'm concerned, and you add a lot to the forum.
ID, I was thinking earlier today about your post of UR as being "wishful thinking". I thought to myself to post to you, that when you "see it, it will all start to come together" for you...the scriptures will start to make sense as you explore them, you'll see UR throughout ALL the Bible...all those verses WW says can be quoted. ALL nations will be blessed, there will be no more curse, no more tears, All will be made new, on and on. Old Testament to New. But you have to start seeing it first, then it just starts fitting together.
So, just a few minutes ago I saw your post on God being the Lake of Fire, and the same Fire that cleanses and purifies the sin (and as Nathan said) cleanses [destroys] the nature of man. It seemed like you had one of those "man, I see it" moments. :thumbsup:. Hang in there, keep reading, be open to what God has for you. He will show you...keep digging though, because He said it's His glory to hide a matter, and the honor of kings to search it out. God is good, and even better than we realize.
God's blessing, James.
But isn't God wipe away tear and stuff was for the saved people?
I am very confused here because of one thing:
God so love the world that he send his son to died for us, whoever believe in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
That where UR get me confused at this very point, How can God draw "ALL" to him if they don't believe Jesus and perish? You know what is perish is? DEAD, GONE.
Even Jesus told medn to fear God that he can destroy body and soul, how can draw "ALL" to himself if he can do that otherwise?
Hopefully this will help. Taken from here http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.
YE SHALL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH.
"I tell you, nay; except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."--Luke xii : 3.
Many readers of the Bible suppose that the word perish always relates to the immortal soul, and that it means to suffer torment without end. And this passage has been quoted blindly, ignorantly, thousands of times to denote the final loss of the soul. But it is only necessary to consult the immediate context to perceive that Jesus was referring to nothing of the sort. He asks:
"Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, nay; but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
That is, perish in a manner similar to their death. "Except ye repent, ye shall all perish as they died." How was that? There were "some who told him of the Galilieans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices," and of a certain eighteen "upon whom the tower of Siloam fell, and slew them."
"Think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwell in Jerusalem? I tell you, nay; but except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish."
That is, be slain as they were. No better explanation fo these words can be given than in the language of "orthodox" commentators.
Says Dr. Clarke: "ye shall all likewise perish. In a like way, in the same manner. This prediction of our lord was literally fulfilled. When the city was taken by the Romans, multitudes of the priests, etc., who were going on with their sacrifices, were slain, and their blood mingled with the blood of their victims; and multitudes were buried under the ruins of the walls, houses and temple."
Dr. Barnes (Presbyterian) observes: "You shall all be destroyed in a similar manner. * * This was remarkably fulfilled. Many of the jews were slain in the temple; many while offering sacrifice; thousands perished in a way very similar to the Galileans."
DESTROY SOUL AND BODY IN HELL
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell. Matt. x:28. "But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him which, after he hath killed, hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you, fear him." Luke xil:5.
The reader of these verses and the accompanying language, will observe that Jeus is exhorting his disciples to have entire faith in God. The most that men can do is to destroy the body, but God "is able," "hath power" to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. It is not said that God has any disposition or purpose of doing so. He is able to do it, as it is said (Matt. iii:9) he is "able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." He never did, and never will raise up children to Abraham of the stones of the street, but he is able to, just as he is able to destroy soul and body in Gehenna, while men could only destroy the body there. Fear the mighty power of God, who could, if he chose, annihilate man, while the worst that men could do would be to destroy mere animal life. It is a forcible exhortation to trust in God, and has no reference to torment after death. fear not those who can only torture you--man--but fear God who can annihilate, (apokteino).
1 This language was addressed by Christ to his disciples, and not to sinners.
2 It proves God's ablility to annihilate (destroy) and not his purpose to torment. Donnegan defines appollumi, "to destroy utterly."
As though Jesus had said: "Fear not those who can only kill the body, but rather him, who, if he chose could annihilate the whole being. Fear not man but God."
"So much may suffice to show the admitted fact, that the destruction of soul and body was a proverbial phrase, indicating utter extinction or complete destruction." Paige
God's blessing, Js.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2009, 11:59:38 PMWell, read my fist post on this forum. I made no secret of it. You can say I
Just to maybe clear something up.... I don't think ID was calling you a hypocrite.... he was calling the HELL website hypocritical for calling out a HELL teacher.
"it like telling people there no purple color when they have a purple color as well."
Quote from: bobf on February 01, 2009, 08:29:30 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2009, 11:59:38 PMWell, read my fist post on this forum. I made no secret of it. You can say I
Just to maybe clear something up.... I don't think ID was calling you a hypocrite.... he was calling the HELL website hypocritical for calling out a HELL teacher.
"it like telling people there no purple color when they have a purple color as well."
I didn't call whitewing a hypocrite, thank for clearing me up bobf, I am terrible with grammer. :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on February 01, 2009, 05:51:50 AM
WW, if it's only 1%
I hope it's the mustard seed. It grows slowly when "in the earth" but when it sees the first ray of light it almost explodes.
My seed just happend to be planted in rocky ground :laughing7:
Amen! So be it!
Quote from: IceDash on February 01, 2009, 05:58:41 AM
But isn't God wipe away tear and stuff was for the saved people?
Surely that's true. But don't you think the people in the classic hell with fire and brimstone have even more tears that need to be wiped away.[/quote]
QuoteGod so love the world that he send his son to died for us, whoever believe in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
That where UR get me confused at this very point, How can God draw "ALL" to him if they don't believe Jesus and perish?Quote
That would make God inferior (to men)
He wants all 'in heaven' He even sends His Son to help. And the result? He failed because 95% is not in heaven.
Do you think God possibly has overestimated Himself (and Jesus)?
QuoteYou know what is perish is? DEAD, GONE.
The "GONE" part is wrong according to all Christian denominations. How else can people be judged after death? How can there be "hell"? If there is nothing (gone) then there is nothing for God to judge.
Quote
Even Jesus told medn to fear God that he can destroy body and soul, how can draw "ALL" to himself if he can do that otherwise?
Your question has the answer in itself.
Even for God it's impossible to draw everyone to Himself and at the same time push everyone away into hell.
So there is a contradiction in that statement. But when IceDash noticed the contradiction why didn't God see it?
Perhaps IceDash and many others read things wrong. But you know that by now because Jabcat answered that when I was asleep.
IceDash,
Forgot in my earlier post...
I also recommend the book of two forum members http://www.godsplanforall.com/
It's free. You only the shipping. You can read it online. Or you can get it as a .pdf file.
Easy reading to-the-point book.
Quote from: IceDash on February 01, 2009, 08:58:47 AM
I didn't call whitewing a hypocrite,
You clipped my wing. You forgot an S :laughing7:
Hmmm, I'm "fallen" now :Chinscratch:
Quotethank for clearing me up bobf, I am terrible with grammer. :sigh:
Must say I misunderstood you. But as you hopefully noticed from the replies after that I didn't really care.
All forgiven.
Jabcat! See I made a little step from the wide road. 1.01% and counting! :pointlaugh:
God is merciful and will not have any perish. He's truly a God we can love and trust :thumbsup:.
IceDash,
Few quotes from you in this thread.
QuoteI am still have hard time understand the loving God who KNOW EVERYTHING made hell for wimpy puny human to be burn forever. It's unsettled.
Quotebut aren't you afraid of what if hell is real? Do you ever feel sometime like that?
Quotewas it because UR using "wishful thinking?"
QuoteI know, Love is not fear
also the "good news"
more people in hell than heaven isn't exactly good news.
QuoteBut isn't God wipe away tear and stuff was for the saved people?
QuoteThat where UR get me confused at this very point, How can God draw "ALL" to him if they don't believe Jesus and perish? You know what is perish is? DEAD, GONE.
QuoteEven Jesus told medn to fear God that he can destroy body and soul, how can draw "ALL" to himself if he can do that otherwise?
Below my own signature. For me it answers all your questions I quoted above. The verses may not exactly explain how things are done and when but IMO it gives a clear view on the end result.
And eternal doom just doesn't fit in that end result.
Unless you call people burning in hell: saved, not judged and declared righteous.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 .... God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
Sounds a lot like the grace all Christian denominations speak about.
thank you whitewing"s" (I just put your wing back on with glue) :laughing7:
Anyway, I am still studying God's word without any men's tradition or the church (yeah I still go there because I love these people)
I guess not all sermons and lessons in your church are about hell. So there still are things to learn in that.
I think you need to view things from at least 2 angles. Hear it the ET way. Hear it the UR way.
Then compare their explanations in a more litteral Bible and draw your own conclusions.
For me personally ET never made sense because basicly its messages is:
"God loves all, but still 95% get tortured forever."
That doesn't even make sense for human fathers that don't have full control of things.
But for God who has full control of every molecule in the universe it makes even less sense.
I wonder why he only had to spend 23 minutes in hell? I find his site disgraceful. And do you know that book is sold all over the place, even at the Walgreen's pharmacy. What a fear monger! There are times when I wish there were a hell where all the fear mongers have to be in purgatory.
The one other hell fire dude that really gets on my nerves is that Berean Call dude... David (something) - his name slips my mind at the moment. I read his monthly newsletter for entertainment value. It's always very dire and he has pretty much condemned the whole world over the years. i'm sure his name will come to me after I send this message.
23 minutes is how long he dozed off during church service.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 04:23:31 PM
23 minutes is how long he dozed off during church service.
Must have been inspired by the movie "23"
The plot fits his scam.
"An intriguing portrait of a young man drifting away from reality. And since that young man was a famous hacker with an unhealthy interest in conspiracies, the movie has got to be about conspiracies"
The conspiracy part is probably true. Setup by the guy with the pitchfork...