So jesus achieved nothing by coming in the flesh?

[Nathan]

imo what makes no sense to me is that if the mainstream church is correct only around 10% (and that is the high estimate) of humanity will be saved, to me that is a pitiful return on any effort.

The first thought i have on the op is that Jesus did not come to save us from "hell", He came to save us from the wages of sin. which is DEATH

According to the scriptures this will be the last enemy to be destroyed, if their is any that once had life and is not alive at that time then it has not been defeated.

The scriptures tells us all will acknowledge that Christ is Lord and the onlt way to the Father, but the mainstream church teaches that ALL will not come to the knowledge of the truth, in spite of what the scriptures say.

Go figure

Exactly, Jesus came to save us from the wages of sin...which is death.  Without his sacrifice, without belief in Him we ALL die.  I'm not sure why some have to be sacrificed to validate the sacrifice of Christ.  Why is mainstream Christianity bent on this particular viewpoint?  Why must most of humanity die, seperated, or burned eternally in order for Christ's sacrifice to be valid and meaningful?

I'd like to take this one just a step further and say that Jesus may have come "knowing" he would die, but I can't go so far to say that Jesus came only "to" die.  That's what Peter got rebuked for as well.  Jesus began explaining to them the next course of his purpose, which was to go to Jerusalem (house of peace . . .can you beleive that's it's actual name???) where he would die, be buried and resurrect . . .but all that went into Peter's head was that he would die and be buried.  "That's" why Jesus stated that he had become an adversary to his purpose.  Jesus didn't just come to die, he came to bring resurrection.  But our carnal minds, always being in a fallen state without the miracle of Christ in us . . . the fallen mind can only focus on the death.  Jesus isn't about death, he's about life.  But in order for life to manifest, death must first occur.

Much like that seed that dies.  The death triggers the seed to reverse it's deterioration . . .a mystery to say the least, but that's the way of the kingdom.  In order for his life to increase through mine, I must allow my "self" to decrease to the point of bringing death to my old identity so I can be transformed into his.  As a result of the WHOLE process, sin was REMOVED.  And going one more step with it, it wasn't sin that Jesus came to die for either.  Just as demons and devils aren't to be "our" focus, sin and death wasn't "his" either.  He came that we would have LIFE and MORE ABUNDANTLY.

But in order for the life to manifest . . .because before, what was manifesting was sin . .but for Life to manifest, the SOURCE OF SIN needed to be dealt with.  Sin is only a manifestation that man is still in a fallen state, that the CURSE is still in effect.  "That's" what Jesus came to address . . .the curse.  Not a curse that God put on man, but the curse that MAN brought to man . . .or perhaps a better term would be, the curse that man"birthed" into man.  What's the curse?  Misalignment between my spirit and my soul . . .Adam and Eve . . .it's what got them kicked out of the garden.  When spirit (Adam) submitted to and received fruit from Eve (soul).  "That's" where sin began to manifest.

Jesus didnt' just deal with the manifestation, he dealt with it's source.  You do realize that when Scripture talks about when the children of Israel first set foot "in" the Jordan (descender) river the waters backed up all the way to a city called ADAM . . .that's what it's telling us.  That Jesus didn't just get the Israelites safely across death's borders and into a promise land, but he rolled death all the way back to where it first manifested . . .and he redeemed us, he restored us back to the garden . . .when the mighty angel was stationed at the EAST (resurrection) gate of the garden WITH (not holding, but acompanying) the FLAMING SWORD (any flags of recognition there?), he (which I believe was Christ) was not there to keep Adam out . . .but he was put there so Adam could find his way back IN!!

"That's" what I see Jesus did 2 days ago on the cross . . .he came "down" to the pit and he died a criminal's death, blood had to flow because life is in the blood and it's evidence that a life was taken . .remember the seed . . .blood was the evidence that the seed had died so that it could multiply and REPLENISH my (inwardly speaking) earth.  And regardless of what the ET-rs think, every part of my being . . .my spirit, my soul and my flesh . . .all have been redeemed . . .the latter are still bound by the laws of this realm (time) and must go through due process.  But my spirit is already free . . .my head is just beginning to come into the place where my spirit has been since the foundation of the world.

[jabcat]

My main point is not over all the "details", but rather that I don't believe everyone's walking around filled with the Holy Spirit, including unsaved folks.  I believe that's scriptural, some of the other "hows" may be a little harder to understand.   :2c:

[Nathan]

Nathan, that's an interesting point.  Jesus told the Pharisees they were clean on the outside but full of everything unclean on the inside.

I'm wondering about who/what cleans out the inside, because isn't that what Jesus was doing during his ministry?  He said if I sweep the house clean and the demons return and find an empty house they will call all their friends to move in and it will be worse for you.

So--I'm wondering if Jesus cleans the house and then the Holy Spirit can move in...?

You guys might be able to relate to this . . .it's literally Scripture . . .

In the upper room . . .upon whom did the Spirit pour out?  Yes, before the Spirit was "with" them . . .but when it rushed in . . .upon whom did it pour out?  Was it not on ALLLLLLLLL Flesh???  As far as I'm concerned, if you are breathing, the spirit of life is in you.  The stuff that needs cleaned out is not your heart . . .your heart isn't dirty, it's your head.  What you're heart needs is to be filled so it can flow . . .but when our head is governing our lives, our spirit becomes dormant . . .dry . . .thirsty for that river of SPIRITUAL WATER to be released from the Father . . .which happens the moment we come to (Like Jacob) "the" place and lay our head upon the ROCK at which point all of heaven opens up to us . . .but we gotta lay our head down upon the rock for ANY of that to happen through us . . .remember what Jesus stated . . .birds have nests, foxes have dens but the son of man has NO PLACE to lay  . . .what???  HIS HEAD!!  Why?  Because the minds of men won't give him a place to come rest upon our shoulders . . .which is again, what carrying the ark in the Old Covenant on poles was all about.  It was a picture of how we're to carry his presence upon our shoulders . . .instead of our minds!!!

I feel like I want to give up a SHOUT right now . . . .

[jabcat]

Something here with "on", not "in"?

[lightningfrommymouth]

I'm wondering about who/what cleans out the inside, because isn't that what Jesus was doing during his ministry?  He said if I sweep the house clean and the demons return and find an empty house they will call all their friends to move in and it will be worse for you.

So--I'm wondering if Jesus cleans the house and then the Holy Spirit can move in...?
[/quote]

You guys might be able to relate to this . . .it's literally Scripture . . .

In the upper room . . .upon whom did the Spirit pour out?  Yes, before the Spirit was "with" them . . .but when it rushed in . . .upon whom did it pour out?  Was it not on ALLLLLLLLL Flesh???  As far as I'm concerned, if you are breathing, the spirit of life is in you.  The stuff that needs cleaned out is not your heart . . .your heart isn't dirty, it's your head.  What you're heart needs is to be filled so it can flow . . .but when our head is governing our lives, our spirit becomes dormant . . .dry . . .thirsty for that river of SPIRITUAL WATER to be released from the Father . . .which happens the moment we come to (Like Jacob) "the" place and lay our head upon the ROCK at which point all of heaven opens up to us . . .but we gotta lay our head down upon the rock for ANY of that to happen through us . . .remember what Jesus stated . . .birds have nests, foxes have dens but the son of man has NO PLACE to lay  . . .what???  HIS HEAD!!  Why?  Because the minds of men won't give him a place to come rest upon our shoulders . . .which is again, what carrying the ark in the Old Covenant on poles was all about.  It was a picture of how we're to carry his presence upon our shoulders . . .instead of our minds!!!

I feel like I want to give up a SHOUT right now . . . .
[/quote]

I feel like I'm at risk of becoming a Nathan cheerleader  :grin:...but Amen!

[Nathan]

Something here with "on", not "in"?

I don't know . . . I guess if the Holy Spirit is "upon" me . . .it comes from "within" me because again, we are temples in which he resides.  And by the way, for me the inner cleansing part is the circumcision . . .cutting away the things of the flesh in us to allow us to flow and manifest his spiritual nature. 

It's like a bush that has both live and dead branches in it.  Leaving the dead branches connected affects the overall life of the bush.  But when the dead branches are removed, the bush explodes with new life all through it.  I see the same thing here . . .it's not that the Holy Spirit isn't in us at all.  It's that without our yielding to the pruning of our nature and what we "think" we know, the "fulness" of his life living in us can not manifest.  There's still life in those guys across the way on the other forum, we didn't see much of it in the conversations pertaining to certain subjects . . . but that is how dead branches work.  They don't kill the bush outright, they just keep it from reaching it's full potential of what it was intended to become.

[jabcat]

Yes, you are a vessel within which the Holy Spirit resides if you are spiritually reborn from above.  Again, Paul said not all are of the faith, and to beware of evil men.

People still need to hear the gospel so they can believe.  And how will they hear without someone proclaiming?  Some now, the rest later, when Jesus hands the Kingdom over and God becomes All in All.

That's my understanding - and the PLAN is definitely in process.   :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

Oh I agree Jabcat . . .I believe the spirit speaking "through" us "to" each other is often times the avenue through which there is that "spirit to spirit" communication.  Transformation comes through us "yielding" our "selves" to that invitation, the spirit's calling to our spirits . .  the deep calls to the deep . . .