Justification, repentance, salvation?

[sheila]

false brethren-and the love of God is not in you,or you would love me..ye do the will of your father.........again religious

leaders,sadducees and pharisee's..offspring of viper's.........satan transforming himself as an angel of light..if the light that

  be in ye,be darkness..how great is that darkness.........

[Seth]

Personally, I believe Paul was speaking to the non-religious leadership Gentiles when he said this:

Colossians
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[rosered]

  Seth is right about it being those who started to Join in the  Jesus movement   in 1 John 2

     but  those who opposed Christ  were  also anti Christ spirits       religious leaders
    they all kind of  proved the point    , grace[  Jesus is the grace /gift  of God ] was what they  never had  fallen from /failed  the test   and  also opposed

For The Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Yeshua The Messiah.

Hebrews  6 ;6     could  also apply  with  1 John 2

...5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,[  the  way of Christ]

6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,

since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled,

receives a blessing from God;

[eaglesway]

Personally, I believe Paul was speaking to the non-religious leadership Gentiles when he said this:

Colossians
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I don't kno. Paul certainly spoke that from his own experience as hostile in mind and wicked in works. The Hebrew of Hebrews may have been speaking to all who have been converted from the carnal mind, be it religious or lasciviousness, by the grace of God, renewed and transformed into the image of Christ.  :2c:

[Seth]

I think Paul described the hopelessness of attempting to right one's self using the letter. It ends up actually enhancing the power of the carnal nature, sin taking opportunity provided by the commandment "to become exceeding sinful." We mustn't follow the letter for righteousness, but to grow in grace, in love, to walk according to the spirit.

[eaglesway]

Right. But in Colossians 1, in the verses you quoted, imo, he was speaking to all who have been adversaries, Jew or Gentile. In Colossians 2 he goes on to describe those who "take their stands on visions they have seen" and are "puffed up in the conceit of carnal minds" and "having lost hold of the Head, but it is from the head that the whole body draws its supplies and thus grows according to God's design."

I think this fits religionists of all types.

[Seth]

Perhaps, but I think Paul was clear that his faithfulness is what caused him to have a crown laid up for him after his death, for many are called but few are chosen. Even if that means that ONLY Paul will inherit the kingdom of God in the day of The Lord, I think he laid out the criteria for it pretty clearly at least to me. Those who believe in Christ and love their neighbor, and are faithful to the end shall inherit the kingdom. That's just what I believe the scripture is saying.

[Seth]

That said, I could totally see that the kingdom will increase with the non religious before the oppressive religious folks, once the process is underway. The first shall be last, after all.

[eaglesway]

Perhaps, but I think Paul was clear that his faithfulness is what caused him to have a crown laid up for him after his death, for many are called but few are chosen. Even if that means that ONLY Paul will inherit the kingdom of God in the day of The Lord, I think he laid out the criteria for it pretty clearly at least to me. Those who believe in Christ and love their neighbor, and are faithful to the end shall inherit the kingdom. That's just what I believe the scripture is saying.

Yes, but his faithfulness was by the grace of God. Previously he had been hostile of mind and full of evil works, having murdered Christians- self-confessed "the chief of sinners". That is what he is speaking to in Col 1:21-23, imo.

[eaglesway]

That said, I could totally see that the kingdom will increase with the non religious before the oppressive religious folks, once the process is underway. The first shall be last, after all.

I agree.

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

[RonnyTX]

I'm interested to know what your different opinions are on the order in which our status before God changes, and our lives change in response.

There seem to be two broad opinions in the world or UR:

1) Everyone is justified by Christ's sacrifice (whether they believe or reject it). We must then repent if we want to be saved (healed); this is potentially by chastisement/fire and happens to Christians now, and non-Christians later (possibly in the kingdom/lake of fire).
Key scripture: "while we were enemies, Christ died for us


Ronny to Farlsborough:
I believe that everyone has been made right with God the Father,by way of Jesus Christ and the cross; but the only ones that know that to date,are the ones God has shown/proven that to.

And I now much shy away from using the words saved or even born again and prefer to use the words, born of God. Not that the former words aren't true;but because in this present time,the first two are misused,by so many. How? By so many teaching that the lost person must do something,out of their so call freewill,to save themself and or make themself born again. When the truth is,it is all of God. It is, whether we call it by the words saved,born again or born of God.

And yes,we must repent in our being born of God;but then,it is the goodness of God,that brings us to repentance. :-) And yes,being brought to repentance towards God,is a firey type of chastisement. It's a painful and fearful thing,for God to show you your sinfullness and that in comparison to God and God's holiness. But such,is for our own good. For it is the love,grace and mercy of God,that shows us such and causes our heart to fear. :-) And not just to fear;but to also agree,with what God is showing and proving to us. But even before this,we must come to see,that we are lost,that we're not in a right relationship with God. And the only One who can show us that,so that such is proven to us,is God. In my own case,I was a member of a local Baptist church,for 4 years,before I was born of God and I completely believed for those years,that I was saved,that I was a Christian and yet,I wasn't. And before I could be born of God,God simply had to let me know,that I was not saved,that I was not in a right relationship with God.


Farlsborough:
2) One must repent and have faith to be justified - you cannot be justified/counted righteous/benefit from Christ's conciliatory sacrifice without repentance and faith. We often refer to this as "getting saved", but true salvation (healing) follows on. Christians are the ones who do this in this life; ultimately under the weight of the consequences of sin and/or judgement for that sin, everyone will make this choice.

Are there any other combinations/permutations that people would like to propose? Arguments for and against?

Ronny to Farlsborough:
True,the lost person must repent and have faith,to be justified/saved/be born again/beborn of God. But first, God must show the lost person,that they're lost,not in a right relationship with God. Then God,the goodness of God,leads and causes that person,to come to repentance towards God.  Then when God has done that for the person,He then takes them on,to faith in Jesus Christ. Letting the person know,see and understand,that it was Jesus Christ on the cross for them,there taking their sins,upon himself. :-) Then the person knows,just how greatly God/Jesus Christ does love them. :-) And because of that,the person just naturally loves God/Jesus Christ,in return. :-) So being born of God,no matter when God chooses for that to happen,in a particular persons life,that is all of God. Every bit of it,from start to finish. :-) For it is God,who lets us know that we're lost,God who brings us to repentance and God,who takes us on,to faith in Jesus Christ. And I still love that verse in that old song,because it is so true! "Twas grace that caused my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear,the hour I first believed." :-) So,I know what God did for me and I know what God has done for some other people,as well and I have not one doubt in the world;but that before all is said and done,God will do the same for every person,from Adam on down and not a one left out! :-)