"Saved" from what?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother J... :hithere:

Bro Willie, I'm not asking you to self-reveal/discuss private matters here.  But with this statement "I have cancer in my body Zeek... I have no one to blame for its presence but myself";  given what I understand your POVs (much of which I share) of God being in control (and fortunately for us that includes working all things according for good  :boogie:), is there any further elaboration you can make on this?  Again, without revealing anything inappropriately/unecessarily specific...thanks bro.

The clay is molded in the hand of the Potter... and has no right to call the Potter "on the carpet" for His moldings... Rom 9:20

In knowing that my belief is that GOD is in control of ALL THINGS... I still am accountable for my own behavior... which for much of my life in many areas has been LESS than acceptable when compared to GOD's COMMANDS...

GOD "finds fault" for a reason and that reason is:

I "reap what I sow"... even though the "sowing and reaping" are foreordained, does not excuse me from accountability, for said accountability finds AGREEMENT with the COMMANDS as correct when compared to what I "did"...  :dontknow:

Hope that answers your question bro...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

Hi Willie, I appreciate your responses to me and have always enjoyed your posts, and your intense love for HIM that you reflect. 

I do not agree with your above statement regarding the "wrath of God", as God clearly has set aside the "righteous" who will never die.    I think the Noah story is a great picture of this.

You are more than welcome to "not agree" brother...

Clearly the "Never die" thing, is a MISOBSERVATION, for

(1) ...it is APPOINTED for [all] men once to DIE  Heb 9:27 ...and
(2) ...IN ADAM ...ALL DIE... 1 Cor 15:22

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

The wrath of God is against all ungodliness of those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

but

Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

This does not mean that those "called" will not have participated in Unrighteousness and Ungodliness...

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Again, coming up short... the ...WAY... of the Ungodly shall perish..

I believe these verses are worth meditating on:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I agree.  Any verse in the WORD is worth "meditating on", bro..

Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

This is pictured in the Garden... ADAM and EVE were ALWAYS NAKED... but their "NAKEDNESS" did not APPEAR to them... until they had TRANSGRESSED the COMMAND of GOD...

They were immediately IN SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and therefore made "aprons" to cover themselves...  :dontknow:

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This only means that upon resurrection, LIFE in CHRIST is found... the LIFE of CHRIST (the WORD) ...NEVER dies... but the flesh in which the WORD resides... DIES...

This was found to be so, even in the LIFE of our SAVIOR... we are not greater than HE in ANY WAY.

CHRIST died bro... and we all shall follow Him in death (so much for the "never" thing)... however, some are RAISED ...IN HIM (and the ETERNAL state of the WORD)... others in the SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and the FINITE state in which we entered the grave...

This is what the WIPING of the "tears" is all about Zeek!  Those raised in SHAME as did Adam & Eve, ...immediately find themselves NAKED...

But, as did Adam & Eve... they found a nuturing Father in GOD, who made clothing to COVER them... and the wiping of the TEARS is the PUTTING on of CHRIST...

A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I shall now ask you Zeek... WHAT SIN is not to be prayed for?  What SIN is NOT unto death?  :Chinscratch:  Until you can answer these questions (and maybe you can)... meditating on this verse remains a meditation in mystery.  :dunno:

]One last thing, in your last post to me, you said something to the effect of "you are more than welcome to be afraid of God",

i just wanted to let you know, that no where have i said that "I" was afraid of God.

If you FEAR (phobos) Him... you are AFRAID of Him... He does NOT desire your FEAR!

You promote FEAR (phobos) Zeek... FEAR is not part or portion to LOVE, PEACE or GOD...  :dontknow:  ...Which I have already demonstrated...

One of the things GOD detests and which IS a qualification for the LOF and the 2nd DEATH, ...is FEAR... Rev 21:8

but I have posted these verses frequently

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Posting of verses frequently is nice, but does not afford understanding OF THEM...

The WICKED "way" of man, is that which GOD detests... not the one IN the wickedness... He brings WRATH against the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

OF MEN  Rom 1:18 -- not the MEN themselves... Against the WAY of the WICKED, ...not against those whom HE CONCLUDED as such Rom 11:32

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

I drink of that cup now, Zeek... (Cancer)... and when you are DUE, so will you... CANCER ...IS... a portion of the FIRE bro...

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

And GLAD we are, that he LOVES righteousness... for IN righteousness and IN His IMPARTIALITY is found HEALING for ALL...

blessings

Z      eek

Blessings to you as well dear brother...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Yes, I thought you may be talking about sowing and reaping, but didn't want to be too presumptious/judgmental...even had that in my post but took it out.  Got'cha, thanks.

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

Hi Willie, I appreciate your responses to me and have always enjoyed your posts, and your intense love for HIM that you reflect. 

I do not agree with your above statement regarding the "wrath of God", as God clearly has set aside the "righteous" who will never die.    I think the Noah story is a great picture of this.

You are more than welcome to "not agree" brother...

Clearly the "Never die" thing, is a MISOBSERVATION, for

(1) ...it is APPOINTED for [all] men once to DIE  Heb 9:27 ...and
(2) ...IN ADAM ...ALL DIE... 1 Cor 15:22

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

The wrath of God is against all ungodliness of those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

but

Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

This does not mean that those "called" will not have participated in Unrighteousness and Ungodliness...

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Again, coming up short... the ...WAY... of the Ungodly shall perish..

I believe these verses are worth meditating on:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I agree.  Any verse in the WORD is worth "meditating on", bro..

Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

This is pictured in the Garden... ADAM and EVE were ALWAYS NAKED... but their "NAKEDNESS" did not APPEAR to them... until they had TRANSGRESSED the COMMAND of GOD...

They were immediately IN SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and therefore made "aprons" to cover themselves...  :dontknow:

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This only means that upon resurrection, LIFE in CHRIST is found... the LIFE of CHRIST (the WORD) ...NEVER dies... but the flesh in which the WORD resides... DIES...

This was found to be so, even in the LIFE of our SAVIOR... we are not greater than HE in ANY WAY.

CHRIST died bro... and we all shall follow Him in death (so much for the "never" thing)... however, some are RAISED ...IN HIM (and the ETERNAL state of the WORD)... others in the SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and the FINITE state in which we entered the grave...

This is what the WIPING of the "tears" is all about Zeek!  Those raised in SHAME as did Adam & Eve, ...immediately find themselves NAKED...

But, as did Adam & Eve... they found a nuturing Father in GOD, who made clothing to COVER them... and the wiping of the TEARS is the PUTTING on of CHRIST...

A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I shall now ask you Zeek... WHAT SIN is not to be prayed for?  What SIN is NOT unto death?  :Chinscratch:  Until you can answer these questions (and maybe you can)... meditating on this verse remains a meditation in mystery.  :dunno:

]One last thing, in your last post to me, you said something to the effect of "you are more than welcome to be afraid of God",

i just wanted to let you know, that no where have i said that "I" was afraid of God.

If you FEAR (phobos) Him... you are AFRAID of Him... He does NOT desire your FEAR!

You promote FEAR (phobos) Zeek... FEAR is not part or portion to LOVE, PEACE or GOD...  :dontknow:  ...Which I have already demonstrated...

One of the things GOD detests and which IS a qualification for the LOF and the 2nd DEATH, ...is FEAR... Rev 21:8

but I have posted these verses frequently

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Posting of verses frequently is nice, but does not afford understanding OF THEM...

The WICKED "way" of man, is that which GOD detests... not the one IN the wickedness... He brings WRATH against the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

OF MEN  Rom 1:18 -- not the MEN themselves... Against the WAY of the WICKED, ...not against those whom HE CONCLUDED as such Rom 11:32

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

I drink of that cup now, Zeek... (Cancer)... and when you are DUE, so will you... CANCER ...IS... a portion of the FIRE bro...

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

And GLAD we are, that he LOVES righteousness... for IN righteousness and IN His IMPARTIALITY is found HEALING for ALL...

blessings

Z      eek

Blessings to you as well dear brother...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_flower:

It is appointed for man ONCE to die, not twice (second death/LOF). 

but there are those who die twice:

Jud 1:12  These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

those who never die, are those who don't go through second death.  They LIVE in HIM NOW.  They are not twice dead.  The wrath of God, imo; is the second death, twice dead. 


So if I get what you are saying Willie, you are in the lake of fire now, and will die in your sins, as evidence by your cancer??  And your cancer is to shame you?? 

[Zeek]

and, i'm not sure I fully know why I think this is relevant yet; but this verse has meaning imo in relation to this topic too

Num 20:11  And Moses lifted up his hand, and smote the rock with his rod twice: and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their cattle.


Moses, representing law??  which was the minsitration of death??  struck twice, possibly because those who AFTER having known the truth, revert back to law, so "second death"???


Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.


Heb 12:18  For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them;

Heb 12:20  for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned;

Heb 12:21  and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:

Heb 12:22  but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,

Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24  and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven:

[Zeek]

One other thing on "struck rock twice"

Who is the Rock?  Christ

what is the definition of struck?

H5221
נכה
nâkâh
naw-kaw'
A primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literally or figuratively): -  beat, cast forth, clap, give [wounds], X go forward, X indeed, kill, make [slaughter], murderer, punish, slaughter, slay (-er, -ing), smite (-r, -ing), strike, be stricken, (give) stripes, X surely, wound.


Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[peacemaker]

"Cancer is a preventable disease; eat from the fruit of the Spirit, not of the flesh."

Don't forget the veggies, like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts while leaving the animal fat behind.
And let us not leave out the onion, garlic, or cranberries, blueberries, and grapes.

Habits and attitude make a difference.

"Live by what you trust, not by what you fear."

peacemaker

[Zeek]

In my opinion, the lake of fire/second death is not the trials of our faith (which imo, could be things like cancer, illness etc.)

In the Noah story, Noah spent years "working" to build the ark.  He had FAITH that what God had promised would "come about (in time)".  He stayed faithful to the END.  Receiving the end of his Faith (at a later time) the salvation of his soul.  During the "time" he "worked" on the ark, he was persecuted, mocked, rejected by those who were stuck in their "old" belief systems.  They, like those who killed Jesus; were not living by faith.  Paul, John, James etc also lived by faith, and encouraged others to stay faithful to the end, despite rejection, trials, mockery, beatings, etc. from those who rejected the cross.  They "worked" out there salvation with fear and trembling.  They had their faith tried PRIOR to the coming judgment, just as Noah had his faith tried prior to the coming judgment (the rain storm).

Then (in time) came the judgment.  Noah was saved.  He "rose" above the waters.  Just like then came Christ's judgment, and he "rose" above the "old system" (praise God).  Then came the judgment upon the rest of the body of Christ (Paul, John, and those faithful up to the judgment day), and they too were saved, and arose above the destruction. 

God appears to teach and demonstrate "in time".  This first, then that. 

Was Noah's faith tried anymore once he arose above the waters?  Was Christs faith tried after he arose from the dead??

If our faith is still being tried today, then imo; based on Gods teaching using time; we are not in the lake of fire.  We are working out our salvation still, and the day of judgment is yet to come. 





Willie asked me re: sin unto death and sin not unto death.  Here is my views.  First, in I John, when John talks of a sin not unto death, he is talking to "brothers".   ie:  If any man see his brother (I John 5:16)...

A brother is one who has been transferred from death (first death ie: in adam all die) to life (in Christ) via faith in the risen Christ.  At the time of writing in I John, huge persecution of the saints/christians was happening.  There was huge pressure to go back to the literal temple and resume the sacrifices, ritual worship, the "old mindset".  The temple was still standing and the "old covenant" was still being practiced.  The trial of one's faith at times was probably very intense, and it was the "easy" way out to go back to the law.  If one were to do this, this would be "denying Jesus come in the flesh.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


It is making a mockery of the cross.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Th


This is the sin unto death.  Death being the second death, the lake of fire, the destruction that leaves one shamed. 


Now, as humans we all sin, I occasionally lust, think selfish thots etc.  but for those who are made alive in Him, and continue to trust in the risen Christ; who continue to hope, purfify themselves and are righteous despite their "sin".  They have sinned a sin NOT unto death.  They are not to be thrown into the fire; as they continue to LIVE in HIM.   These are the "whoever believes on HIM, will never die".  Believest thou this?? 

But the one's who don't continue in belief, and fall back, despite the spirit of grace, will "perish" (second death).  I John 3:16. 

[Zeek]

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

The word clearly states differently. Maybe one's view of "death" needs to be considered.  I believe this is "second death".

Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

Do you see the lake of fire as the resurrection to condemnation??

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

I would love to hear it, and any other music you have; as i've heard u are quite the musician.  How do I hear this?

[reFORMer]

As for "sin unto death" or, "...not unto death:"  The Law prescribes the death sentence for certain transgressions; others, not so.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother ...Z  :eek:

It is appointed for man ONCE to die, not twice (second death/LOF).

but there are those who die twice:

Jud 1:12  These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

One weak and misobserved witness you present to support your FEAR teachings...

This is not speaking of other than yourself and the FLESH with which you do battle in the Spirit...  Failing to see the WAR as named by PAUL -- Rom 7

GOD is able to (and DOES) make of the SAME LUMP --- one vessel unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR... Rom 9:21

The description of the above is speaking of the LOVE-FEAST which is CHRIST in ALL... and, ...the ADVERSITY within EVERY MAN... which are the elements of that ADVERSITY --- clouds without water, and carried along by winds, etc...

GOD is IMPARTIAL (I've found 10 verses - want a list?)... and HE is the creator of ALL that you are... Rom 9:20 ...do ones which find themselves in GOOD circumstances COMPLAIN of those circumstances Zeek?  Please... :rolleye:  Of course they DO NOT... it is the NATURAL Man complaining of his circumstances...

I could well complain of CANCER now couldn't I?   However... it has a PURPOSE, for I am found in the Creative hand of the ALL-MIGHTY (which means all "might" that IS, is found in HIM)... And part of the HAND of the POTTER is seen to "MAR" the Clay while IN His HAND at ALL TIMES... Jer 18:4   :dontknow:

those who never die, are those who don't go through second death.  They LIVE in HIM NOW.  They are not twice dead.  The wrath of God, imo; is the second death, twice dead.

:Yeahright:  (1) Those who "NEVER DIE", dont go "through" the 2nd death?  :laugh:  That means that if I were to SHOOT you in the head, you would -- ahem -- "NEVER DIE"?  :eek:  Z :eek: --- GET REAL!

ALL DIE Zeek, and are APPOINTED to do so... Gen 2:19 -- 1 Cor 15:22  as the SCRIPTURES plainly note, ...you are just in denial, due to traditional Orthodox teachings which theologically and erroneously note otherwise...

(2)  If you are not of the "UNGODLY" (the target of GOD's Wrath -- Rom 1:18), then CHRIST therefore, did NOT DIE for you Zeek... Rom 5:6

(3)  The WRATH of GOD is against ALL UNGODLINESS -- Rom 1:18 and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS [sin] -- 1 John 5:17 ...ALL have SINNED (including you Zeek) -- Rom 3:23  YOU are therefore, the target of the WRATH of GOD, for you are both Ungodly and Unrighteous... (as are ALL MEN)

You are welcome to turn a blind eye away from what IS plainly noted... 

Show me where the SCRIPTURE says that ANYONE shall avoid the SECOND DEATH Zeek ---  :dontknow:  Thanks (but please don't expect me to hold my breath while you search!)

The WORD disagrees with you... The WORD says some will not be HURT of the SECOND DEATH... it does NOT SAY that ANY shall AVOID IT... I await your proof that YOU shall "NEVER DIE", as well as that YOU shall AVOID the SECOND DEATH...  :dontknow:  Thanks bro...  :ty: :friendstu:

So if I get what you are saying Willie, you are in the lake of fire now,

YES... as are YOU, brother Zeek...  :winkgrin:

and will die in your sins, as evidence by your cancer??  And your cancer is to shame you??

NO... I am IN CHRIST which is HIS CHOOSING -- Acts 2:47... and am part of the 1st Resurrection, being a BELIEVER while IN the FLESH of SIN, which (flesh which is part of me) SHALL DIE... 

At the RESURRECTION when ...ALL... that sleep IN the GRAVES shall rise ... I will be found in CHRIST... 1 Cor 15:22 -- John 5:28  The (ones=all) noted as "occupants" of the GRAVES are noted in TWO distinct groups... one of which are those that have "done GOOD"  :dontknow:

ALL DIE Zeek... you shall find this out sooner or later, when you get over your Orthodox denial...  Otherwise, Scriptures such as John 5:28 -- Heb 9:27 -- 1 Cor 15:22 are bearing false witness (which they are NOT)... and the "never die thing" is a misunderstanding which you (falsely) hopefully embrace, thinking you shall avoid that DEATH to which YOU are APPOINTED...

Let's get one thing straight brother Z... the CANCER in my body, is not "MY CANCER"... it is THAT which comes AGAINST ME... I make no claim of OWNERSHIP of it...

The CANCER that comes against me, is the "REAPING" of what has been "SOWN" in my life... And IS SERVING the PURPOSE of GOD, which shall forever serve to display, that such things DO NOT belong within that which is PERFECT, being STRONG and CONVINCING elements of IMPERFECTION...

CANCER is not my SHAME... it is the Wrath which is come against the portions of LIFE that I have SOWN, which were done outside the SERVICE of the TRUTH... My SELFISHNESS, burning in the FIRE of this life... In the body of THIS DEATH... Rom 7:24

It represents HARM to my LIFE, contrary TO IT... It TEMPORARILY represents SORROW, where ETERNAL JOY belongs... etc.

SHAME is being FOUND in SIN -- in the RESURRECTION, Zeek... Rev 3:18

Many shall (according to the WILL and INTENTION of GOD), Be FOUND dying IN their SIN ...unrepentent -- unforgiven... For GOD chose not to author REPENTENCE in them -- Rom 2:4, and HE chose not to DRAW them John 6:44, and HE chose not to AUTHOR faith in them to believe Heb 12:2... But all that is to come for ALL, before the completion of the LAST DAY...

REPENTENCE is part of that which brings forth FORGIVENESS... and REPENTENCE is ORCHESTRATED and AUTHORED ...In man, By GOD...  Rom 2:4 -- John 6:44

GOD does the "drawing" [dragging] to CHRIST, according to HIS WILL and PURPOSE -- Eph 1:11

If YOU have "repented" Zeek... it was NOT "your idea" to do so... on the contrary... the DARKNESS (desparate and wicked heart of man - Jer 17:9) concieves of NO such "plan"...

I don't claim to have all the answers Zeek... but ONE thing I am SURE of... and that is that the GOSPEL is a message which is COMPLETELY about PEACE and LOVE... which is DEVOID of such negativities as FEAR and TORMENT...

GOD ...and... the GOSPEL are about PEACE:

GOD -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23

GOSPEL -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

Think what you will...  :dontknow:  It really doesn't matter to me what you think...  :dontknow:   Furthermore, ...it is not my endeavor to convince you... but I post these thoughts contrary to your false message of FEAR, ...that others might not be deterred by that negative message... and hear the TRUTH, that GOD LOVES the WORLD, and that they need not be AFRAID of the one who LOVES THEM the MOST...

There is NO PEACE within FEAR, nor is there PEACE in your proposals of TORMENTS beyond this life OF even more TORMENTS...  :rolleye:

When (and/or IF) you arrive at my age (63)... and you are made by arriving there, to observe this lifetime in retrospect... you will likely find a different perspective than you might presently hold...  Having been through the "FIRE" of many "losses", which have been CONSUMED by that "FIRE"...

The "FIRE" of DEATH given unto your life, until you are SICK up to your neck of it... having taken away one by one, all those you LOVE... and the "FIRE" which consumes -- your youth, your health, your career, your usefulness, the list is almost "endless"... but which is NOT devoid of the HOPE (expectation) of the GREAT PROMISES of GOD!  Which shall RENEW and REVEAL the ETERNAL GLORY, which shall SHINE GLORIOUSLY in the FACE of these "FIRE losses" (read JOB to get an idea)

Part of our "Creation" which is ETERNALLY aimed at PERFECTION (completion)... is SUFFERING, for even CHRIST, the Captain of our Salvation was made PERFECT (complete) THROUGH SUFFERING... Heb 2:10

Peace brother Z...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

The word clearly states differently. Maybe one's view of "death" needs to be considered.  I believe this is "second death".

It is the correct observation (inspired of GOD) of the WORD which reveals the TRUTH... An athiest can read the WORD, and derive NOTHING SPIRITUAL from it...

Obviously ALL MEN DIE... so the word "NEVER" -- which by definition means "not at ANY TIME"... is misobserved as meaning that you shall NOT DIE at ANY TIME... for ALL DIE...

Again, you are welcome to believe what you wish to believe...  :dontknow:

Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

Do you see the lake of fire as the resurrection to condemnation??

(1) The REVEALING [revelation] of JESUS CHRIST is NOT a chronological event... nor is the "book of REVELATION" written according to the demands of CHRONOLOGY imposed of FINITE observance...

IOW... The FINITE and NATURAL man observes:  chap 20 follows chap 19... The REVEALING of CHRIST who is an ETERNAL entity without CHRONOLOGY, cannot by definition be revealed CHRONOLOGICALLY... so the events that you observe in the "revelation" are not "one -- after -- another"... the END ...IS... the BEGINNING bro...  :teaching:

CHRIST is BOTH, simultaneously... yet cannot be defined by either!  :mshock:

(2)  I do not see the LOF as resurrection at all... I see it as a place where DEATH, dies -- In which CHRIST accomplished what He was sent to do...

...I see it (the "revelation) where the GRAVE was tossed into the LOF (the GRAVE is a fact of THIS LIFE)...
...I see it as those who are NOT written in the book of LIFE are cast all DIE, which removes them from (the book) LIFE...
...I see the books being open are our LIVES lived before Him
...I see it as them being written in the book of LIFE of the Lamb, for the Lamb died for ALL
...I see the JUDGMENT before the GWT is NOW... not to come "in time" for TIME is nothing but NOW...

and much more...

(3)  CHRIST was sent NOT to condemn -- John 3:17... and when presented the "opportunities" TO CONDEMN... He did NOT... It is also said of Him that He CHANGES NOT... so if in fact it was His practice NOT to CONDEMN, then to CONDEMN would represent a CHANGE in Him...

Whatever you percieve the LOF to be... it cannot be an entity that CONDEMNS... for the LAKE of FIRE is part and portion to the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST, who CONDEMNS NOT...

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You would do well to look up the definition of the original WORD which was translated DAMNATION in this verse, Zeek... It is JUDGMENT... and is so translated as JUDGMENT many times in the NT...

JUDGMENT is NOT a bad thing bro... for it is that which REMOVES unrighteousness, and ungodliness by its revelation:

Isaiah 26:9  ...for when Thy JUDGMENTS are IN the Earth, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will ...LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS... (not be tormented in "real" FIRE)

A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

I would love to hear it, and any other music you have; as i've heard u are quite the musician.  How do I hear this?

PM me with an address you can recieve mail, and I will send you some of our music... (my wife and I)...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[sparrow]

Furthermore, ...it is not my endeavor to convince you... but I post these thoughts contrary to your false message of FEAR, ...that others might not be deterred by that negative message... and hear the TRUTH, that GOD LOVES the WORLD, and that they need not be AFRAID of the one who LOVES THEM the MOST...

There is NO PEACE within FEAR, nor is there PEACE in your proposals of TORMENTS beyond this life OF even more TORMENTS...  :rolleye:

When (and/or IF) you arrive at my age (63)... and you are made by arriving there, to observe this lifetime in retrospect... you will likely find a different perspective than you might presently hold...  Having been through the "FIRE" of many "losses", which have been CONSUMED by that "FIRE"...

The "FIRE" of DEATH given unto your life, until you are SICK up to your neck of it... having taken away one by one, all those you LOVE... and the "FIRE" which consumes -- your youth, your health, your career, your usefulness, the list is almost "endless"... but which is NOT devoid of the HOPE (expectation) of the GREAT PROMISES of GOD!  Which shall RENEW and REVEAL the ETERNAL GLORY, which shall SHINE GLORIOUSLY in the FACE of these "FIRE losses" (read JOB to get an idea)

Part of our "Creation" which is ETERNALLY aimed at PERFECTION (completion)... is SUFFERING, for even CHRIST, the Captain of our Salvation was made PERFECT (complete) THROUGH SUFFERING... Heb 2:10

Peace brother Z...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank you Willie.... :HeartThrob:
Your post really helped me today.
I was getting super sucked into a lot of fear for some reason.  :dontknow:
I stayed up all night last night....  :gsad:
I tried to sleep and just kept getting back up pacing around.
Then a noisy mockingbird outside my window would not stop singing.
They do that sometimes, at night.
iy iy iy.

Anyway, again...
Thank you.
You really helped my heart and mind today.
love you.
Thank you.
(( hugs ))

[Zeek]

"(1) Those who "NEVER DIE", dont go "through" the 2nd death? (zeek statement)   That means that if I were to SHOOT you in the head, you would -- ahem -- "NEVER DIE"?" GET REAL! (willie h statement)



this statement is why if we continue discussing between each other; that we will be at odds with each other in relation to this topic, as you spiritually perceive the "second death" as "physical death".  

I am amazed that u spiritualize so much but then revert to a physical/literal event (in time) as the second death.  What we perceive isn't always true. 

I don't believe physical death has anything to do with first death or second death.  At that, i'll stop my conversation with you; as I am very "aware" of when my "ego" wants to step in and make this my best effort to "be right".  


I appreciate your views but disagree at this time with your ideas of "second death".


Z

[reFORMer]

I stayed up all night last night....  :gsad:
I tried to sleep and just kept getting back up pacing around.
Then a noisy mockingbird outside my window would not stop singing.
They do that sometimes, at night.
iy iy iy.

I had something similar.  More than likely what you were hearing was a Nightingale.  They are sooooo loud it's at least partly clear why the word "gale" is in their name.  A Mockingbird has maybe a dozen, or thirteen, no more than fifteen "themes" it acquires in about six weeks time early in its life.  It goes through these about 35 to 45 min in an hour, but not merely repeating them.  It is always creating variations on these themes.  The Nightingale repeats phrases several times, 2 to 5 and...my memory is sketchy, I better stop...just have earplugs on hand.  That's what I do.  There's little hope, except in extreme exhaustion, to get to sleep when these creature are exhibiting their nature that those who don't have to put up with them rave about.  They do have one of the most extensive and beautiful songs of any "flier."  Earplugs!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

I asked you several questions you AVOID... for they do not "fit into" your theology... to acknowledge them, would necessitate change... but you do not wish to do so, so you threaten below to dismiss me... Please... :rolleye:

"(1) Those who "NEVER DIE", dont go "through" the 2nd death? (zeek statement)   That means that if I were to SHOOT you in the head, you would -- ahem -- "NEVER DIE"?"

and in this statement is why we, if continue; will always continue to be at odds with each other in relation to this topic, as you spiritually perceive the "second death" as "physical death".

FIRST ---  You continue to avoid the "never die" issue... If it is as you believe, that "believers in CHRIST shall "NEVER DIE"... WHO are the "DEAD in CHRIST" 1 Thess 5:17, Zeek?

SECOND --- The 2nd DEATH is the DEATH which follows the 1st DEATH... so what, pray-tell is the 1st DEATH Zeek?  :dontknow:

The DEATH that ...WE die... and IS "appointed" ...is the one which FILLS the GRAVEYARDS, Zeek!  For it is FROM the GRAVES that ALL shall "hear His voice"... John 5:28 --  :dontknow:

CHRIST DIED the 2nd DEATH (of the FLESH), to redeem us from the FIRST DEATH into which we were BORN... For WE were concieved by SINFUL HUMAN acts... Ps 51:5

CHRIST however was NOT CONCIEVED by SINFUL human acts... rather HE was CONCIEVED by a DIVINE act... Matt 1:20

I am amazed that u spiritualize so much but then revert to a physical/literal event (in time) as the second death.

Be specific... such incomplete and undocumented generalizations do nothing to prove your points... :rolleye:

When something is REVEALED brother, it is already THERE... When you go to an unveiling at an ART gallery, and they REVEAL it to the audience... does it "appear out of nowhere" Zeek?  Or was the painting already THERE?

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, is the awakening of that which has ALWAYS been present in each one...  The Scriptures note that we are to AWAKEN from SLEEP... 1 Cor 15:34 -- Eph 5:14  What SLEEP Zeek?  Paul alludes this "SLEEP" to DEATH, yet he is speaking to LIVING human beings...

The  great "impairment" to REVELATION, is observing the PHYSICAL as SPIRITUAL and the SPIRITUAL as PHYSICAL... and only the discernment of the WORD, as led by the Holy Spirit, can bring an Ear to Hear or an Eye to see...

The SECOND DEATH is the process of the ELIMINATION of the NATURAL man (which is IN the FLESH)...  For this MORTAL (being "able" to DIE being corruptible) shall put on IMMORTALITY (an "inability" to DIE being incorruptible)... 1 Cor 15:53-54 ...which "SWALLOWS" up ALL DEATH...

This is ACCOMPLISHED by the process into which ALL DEATH, the GRAVE, and ALL men are CAST... (this life) --- the LOF... in which all, through suffering, gain the KNOWLEDGE...

I don't believe physical death has anything to do with first death or second death.  At that, i'll stop my conversation with you; as I am very "aware" of when my "ego" wants to step in and make this my best effort to "be right".

What a cop-out bro!  This is your subliminal way of dismissing my opposition of you...

It is not about who is "right" or "wrong"... it is about REVELATION... either we are REVEALED or we are VEILED...

DEATH is DEATH... whether it is in the FLESH or in the SPIRIT, it is the ABSENCE of LIFE...

CHRIST even noted (physicall) LIVING MEN, as "DEAD"... What is the FIRST death Zeek? 

If LIVING (natural) men are noted as DEAD, then they are BORN -- "DEAD"...  and it is their destiny, BECAUSE of the state of DEATH they are in... to pursue their NATURAL way which is SINFUL and of the FLESH... For SIN emerges from the satifaction of the FLESH -- James 1:14 ...and THAT pursuit ends in DEATH of the FLESH... and it is because we begin "DEAD" in the SPIRIT...

I appreciate your views but disagree at this time with your ideas of "second death".

Z

That's fine... and as I previously stated, you are more than welcome to disagree...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

Willie, I have answered your questions regarding "never die", just not in line with your view.  And yes, I am copping out at this point; as I will not go down the emotional roller coaster that will result if I keep going.  Please do not respond to me again on this thread.  Thank you. 

Z

[Pierac]

Willie, I have answered your questions regarding "never die", just not in line with your view.  And yes, I am copping out at this point; as I will not go down the emotional roller coaster that will result if I keep going.  Please do not respond to me again on this thread.  Thank you. 
Z

Hey Zeek,

Don't be so hard on yourself or WillieH!  You are experiencing exactly what you need! You have someone actually willing to challenge your beliefs! This is not a curse but blessing! It forces you to actually look deeply into not only what you believe but what you have been told!  The real question you should be asking is... Who has scripture to back up their beliefs and who is speaking what they have been told by others. Now is your time to shine with the truth or re-evaluate what you have been told!   :2c:

Don't copp out!  :thumbsup:

Paul

[Zeek]

Willie, I have answered your questions regarding "never die", just not in line with your view.  And yes, I am copping out at this point; as I will not go down the emotional roller coaster that will result if I keep going.  Please do not respond to me again on this thread.  Thank you. 
Z

Hey Zeek,

Don't be so hard on yourself or WillieH!  You are experiencing exactly what you need! You have someone actually willing to challenge your beliefs! This is not a curse but blessing! It forces you to actually look deeply into not only what you believe but what you have been told!  The real question you should be asking is... Who has scripture to back up their beliefs and who is speaking what they have been told by others. Now is your time to shine with the truth or re-evaluate what you have been told!   :2c:

Don't copp out!  :thumbsup:

Paul

I appreciate your post.   It's not that i mind someone challenging my beliefs, and I definitely embrace change in my beliefs.  And I enjoy hearing other's beliefs.  It's the presentation style of Willie that I am very aware of and how I react to it.  I've been triggered in the past by Willie's presentation style to others and to me, and I do not want to go down that road, as I try not to get sucked in emotionally.  And I am not requesting Willie change for me, I just am setting a boundary that is my cut off point.    For me, keeping an awareness of what I'm feeling, and not "becoming" what I am feeling is important.  If I continue, I soon will likely become my emotions/feelings.  make any sense?? 

[70sevens]

FIRST ---  You continue to avoid the "never die" issue... If it is as you believe, that "believers in CHRIST shall "NEVER DIE"... WHO are the "DEAD in CHRIST" 1 Thess 5:17, Zeek?

SECOND --- The 2nd DEATH is the DEATH which follows the 1st DEATH... so what, pray-tell is the 1st DEATH Zeek?  :dontknow:

The DEATH that ...WE die... and IS "appointed" ...is the one which FILLS the GRAVEYARDS, Zeek!  For it is FROM the GRAVES that ALL shall "hear His voice"... John 5:28 --  :dontknow:
...willieH  :thumbsup:

We all need to change our framework of the Scriptures understanding.
The Scriptures are saying things from our physical birth to physical death,
not afterlife.

1. First

Believers in Christ, if they are really born again Christians, will never die.

The dead in Christ in 1Thess 4:17 is the man whose old man is died
on the cross with Jesus Christ, and resurrected as new man who will never die.

Also, the dead of 1Thess 4:17 are shown in the following verse
[John 11:25]
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

The man who dies in Christ Jesus is the man mentioned in 1Thess 4:17.
This also means that the death of our sinful old man on the cross with Jesus (Rom 5:6-7),
which eliminates sins, death, hades, everything.
And this is the second death.

[Rom 5:6-7]
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that
the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

2. Second Death

Second death is the death of death, as someone said.
So the birth as sinful man is first death,
second death is the death of that sinful man on the cross.
So second death is born-again. 

3. Grave

This is also referring to spiritual death.
Time will come when the dead, sinful men, will hear the voice of living Christ.
(Here I see not many have ears to hear)
When he hears Him, he will be invited to death on the cross, the second death,
and will be resurrected with Christ.
All these things are to happen in this lifetime,
unless otherwise Jesus had died in vain.

[John 5:28]
"Do not be amazed at this,
for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

All above deaths are spiritual.
So, somehow WilleH is mixing that is spiritual with physical some parts.

God bless.

[Zeek]

I think these verses are examples of first death:

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


I think Adam's banishment from the garden is a good example of first death. 


I see it as related to being under law, covenental, which in Hebrews was described as soon passing away. 

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Power of sin is the law

The wages of sin is death.  (first death imo)



So, if I understand you correctly on your thots on second death (70 sevens); you see it as "dying to the old man" the death of "first death".  If that is true, then why wouldn't we be hurt by it?  Wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the second death, if it is the death of old man?

So, in the Noah story,  would you say that the "people" who died", were similtude/shadow to represent "our old man", and the "Noah" that lived was the "new creation" within each individual   (Christ in you)?? 

And that what happened between the cross and end of the the writing of the new testament (literally) was a simultude/shadow for death of the old man, and rising of the new within each individual?? 

In other words, there may have been really two sets of people, (ie: "Ishmaels and Isaacs" per Galatians 4) and Paul and gang may have really been persecuted by Ishmaels, and there was really a trial of their faith at the hands of these "evil men", and the "evil" were destined for wrath, and the "righteous" were destined for life/reward.   etc

but all that was just a shadow of how we are to apply it inward??  death to the old in each of us, and life in the new??


as i've stated before, I see this interpretation and it's validity, and agree with it. 

I am interessted in how people make that "leap" from what literally happened back then and apply it to "all inward" now. 

For me, the way that it makes sense is through first centruy fulfilled prophecy.  In other words, the literal was fulfilled, and now we can look at the entire story, and it's fulfillment and apply it all inward, in a "spiritual" way.   The whole bible as a parable to represent our life NOW.   Dying to old man, living in the new.  Being transformed by change of thots, throwing old thot patterns of death into the fire, and arise and walk in the new.

But, from my perspective; if one doesn't see a "change" in ages as having occurred; and we are still in the same age as what was going on back then, it is hard for me to take the "inward" application; because imo; it requires throwing out a lot of scripture, such as the "fear" one's i quoted. 


blessings

z

   

[70sevens]

So, if I understand you correctly on your thots on second death (70 sevens); you see it as "dying to the old man" the death of "first death".  If that is true, then why wouldn't we be hurt by it?  Wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the second death, if it is the death of old man?

So, in the Noah story,  would you say that the "people" who died", were similtude/shadow to represent "our old man", and the "Noah" that lived was the "new creation" within each individual   (Christ in you)?? 

And that what happened between the cross and end of the the writing of the new testament (literally) was a simultude/shadow for death of the old man, and rising of the new within each individual?? 

   

1. Second Death

Yes, the second death is good thing to have.

[Rev 2:11]
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

[Rev 20:6]
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

"Who overcomes" and "who have part in the first resurrection" are same persons.
They are they whose old men died on the cross with Jesus.
(This is individual experience of a man by meeting Jesus in his life.)
These people were already being hurt by the second death (the death of old man on the cross),
so to them there will be no more second death.
In this sense, the Bible says they will not be hurt by the second death.

2. Noah

I will explain as I see it convenient.
Noah vs People died.

Noah was saved by the ark that he built according to God commandment.
The ark represents Jesus Christ, the Saviour.
"Building ark" means that Noah met Jesus Christ and by Christ his sin was cleansed and forgiven.
When completely forgiven, the ark (Christ in him) is completed.

[Gal 4:19]
My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

While building the ark (forming Christ in Him),
Noah's unrighteousness and ungodliness (represented by people died) are judged and separated from him.
This is the process of his old man dying on the cross with Jesus.
And this was Noah's second death.

Due to and with Christ (Ark) in Noah, Noah was saved going through the death tunnel alive.
This is the picture how we are saved from the death, the wage of sin.

3.  After cross to end of NT

I am not sure whether I understand you right, but,
This represents the life of the born again.
I would call it epistles stage of our faith, whereby as a born again man
we really love our neighbors as ourselves for the rest of our lives.

4.  How about me here?

We also should meet Jesus individually now and go through the same process
to remove ungodliness and unrighteousness in us by Jesus.
This process is the LoF, in other words.
We have to go through this process in order to be saved.

God bless.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

As you might expect bro... I find disagreement with your observation...   :mpardon:

Willie asked me re: sin unto death and sin not unto death.  Here is my views.  First, in I John, when John talks of a sin not unto death, he is talking to "brothers".   ie:  If any man see his brother (I John 5:16)...

A brother is one who has been transferred from death (first death ie: in adam all die) to life (in Christ) via faith in the risen Christ.  At the time of writing in I John, huge persecution of the saints/christians was happening.  There was huge pressure to go back to the literal temple and resume the sacrifices, ritual worship, the "old mindset".  The temple was still standing and the "old covenant" was still being practiced.  The trial of one's faith at times was probably very intense, and it was the "easy" way out to go back to the law.  If one were to do this, this would be "denying Jesus come in the flesh.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It is making a mockery of the cross.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Th


This is the sin unto death.  Death being the second death, the lake of fire, the destruction that leaves one shamed.

Might I begin by saying that I do agree this was a well thought out answer bro...  :nod: ...but it does have several problems...  :sigh:

(1)  So what of those which have made no such "mockery" Zeek? (known the truth, then fallen from it)  What of those who never heard of CHRIST?  They are exempt (in your view) from the "2nd death=LOF?  After all, they could not "FALL" from a place they have never been!

(2)  "THIS SIN" you outline as that of the Jews (brethren which were converted Hebrews) which have "confessed" that CHRIST is come in the flesh, then "mock" this confession by returning to an observance of the Law is the "Sin unto Death" which "death" (YOU SAY) is the 2nd Death which "leaves one shamed"...

Did not the Apostle PETER do this Zeek?  And was he not reprimanded for it by PAUL? (Gal 2)  Do you thereby sentence the Apostle PETER to the LOF?

Are you in essence saying that ONLY JEWS will participate in the LOF... Which is clearly misrepresentative of the texts which mention the LOF in the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST...

Above, you also subliminally include in this GENERALIZATION, the "huge pressure" upon ("brethren") which were/are GENTILE converts (which would be including us IN THIS DAY if the LOF is applied to us) ...which had NO "old mindset" concerning the "LAW, ritual sacrifices, literal temple", etc...  :dontknow:

(3)  This is your "theological" answer which IGNORES the "qualifying" elements for which ANY given human being is IMMERSED in the LOF, ...they being:  the FEARFUL, UNBELIEVING, MURDERERS, WHOREMONGERS, SORCERERS, IDOLATORS and ALL LIARS...  ALL human beings "qualify" for the LOF brother Zeek... ALL!

(4)  This "SIN unto DEATH" which you note as the 2nd DEATH --- DISINCLUDES the HUGE balance of humanity from involvement with the LOF, which during its course, has not had a relationship with the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity... thereby as you see it,  they are not subject to its (LOF) "effects", which omits the purpose (of the LOF) which is to eliminate aspects within SINFUL humanity that are undesireable and unacceptable in the HOLY and ETERNAL realm...  :dontknow:

(5)  This line of thinking also IGNORES the FACT that there is NOTHING in the texts which mention the SYMBOLIC "term" LOF... that allude to the premise that ANY shall AVOID it...  :mnah:

Which texts only STATE that some will not be "HURT" of IT... Why would it even suggest that some would not be "hurt" of it, if these would not be experiencing it at all?   :Whistle:

LOGIC suggests that because it does state that some will not be HURT of it, ...they shall go through that "2nd DEATH", but that "2nd death" will not avail "hurt" concerning them... (btw, the word "hurt" in Rev 2:11 means "to do wrong" in moral, physical or social applications)

Please provide Scriptural substanciation that ANYONE shall avoid the 2nd Death... thanks!  :cloud9:

Now, as humans we all sin, I occasionally lust, think selfish thots etc.  but for those who are made alive in Him, and continue to trust in the risen Christ; who continue to hope, purfify themselves and are righteous despite their "sin".  They have sinned a sin NOT unto death.  They are not to be thrown into the fire; as they continue to LIVE in HIM.   These are the "whoever believes on HIM, will never die".  Believest thou this?? 

But the one's who don't continue in belief, and fall back, despite the spirit of grace, will "perish" (second death).  I John 3:16.

Again... much like the selective theology of many ET believers which conveniently DISINCLUDE themselves from being "called on the carpet" (but readily appoint others to it)... this viewpoint (IMO) is just another of that "theological variety"...  :sigh:

Above, (correct me if I misunderstand you) ...it appears that you make this "continuing in belief" as a WORK which MEN of themselves, perform... usurping the glory of CHRIST in that suggestion... 

We do not "overcome" as a result of OUR effort... CHRIST is He that "keeps us from falling" -- Jude 24

In this observation, you are found excusing "lust" or "selfish thoughts"... and promptly "handing out" the DEATH SIN to those who are "too weak" to stand of themselves concerning the "integrity" of the GOSPEL...  Please!  :thumbdown:

This is how I see it:

FIRST --- GOD is completely and PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL... which notes that:

SECOND --- It is HE who authors, FAITH (Heb 12:2) which leads to REPENTENCE (Rom 2:4) and,

THIRD --- That one "continues" is not due to one's own efforts, rather it is due to "CHRIST's efforts" IN that one, which KEEPS he/she from falling -- Jude 24... which further means that:

FOURTH --- If God keeps ONE from "falling" and not another, in order to maintain His claimed (and Scripturally often repeated) IMPARTIALITY  (Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)...

This ELECTION must needs be according to HIS PURPOSE that some "shall FALL" and that some "shall not FALL" (elect -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:11)...

For as I have noted, we are not able, nor are we prone -- (Jer 17:9) -- OF OURSELVES to accomplish this task... only HE can do this IN us!

MANY shall make the claims of HIS WORK, as their own: 

Matt 7:22  MANY will say to Me in that DAY, Lord Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name DONE many wonderful WORKS?

Claiming HIS WORKING as their own ...IS... the INIQUITY they are "workers of"...   :sigh:  Matt 7:23

peace bro...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Doc]

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

As you might expect bro... I find disagreement with your observation...   :mpardon:

Willie asked me re: sin unto death and sin not unto death.  Here is my views.  First, in I John, when John talks of a sin not unto death, he is talking to "brothers".   ie:  If any man see his brother (I John 5:16)...

A brother is one who has been transferred from death (first death ie: in adam all die) to life (in Christ) via faith in the risen Christ.  At the time of writing in I John, huge persecution of the saints/christians was happening.  There was huge pressure to go back to the literal temple and resume the sacrifices, ritual worship, the "old mindset".  The temple was still standing and the "old covenant" was still being practiced.  The trial of one's faith at times was probably very intense, and it was the "easy" way out to go back to the law.  If one were to do this, this would be "denying Jesus come in the flesh.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It is making a mockery of the cross.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Th


This is the sin unto death.  Death being the second death, the lake of fire, the destruction that leaves one shamed.

Might I begin by saying that I do agree this was a well thought out answer bro...  :nod: ...but it does have several problems...  :sigh:

(1)  So what of those which have made no such "mockery" Zeek? (known the truth, then fallen from it)  What of those who never heard of CHRIST?  They are exempt (in your view) from the "2nd death=LOF?  After all, they could not "FALL" from a place they have never been!

(2)  "THIS SIN" you outline as that of the Jews (brethren which were converted Hebrews) which have "confessed" that CHRIST is come in the flesh, then "mock" this confession by returning to an observance of the Law is the "Sin unto Death" which "death" (YOU SAY) is the 2nd Death which "leaves one shamed"...

Did not the Apostle PETER do this Zeek?  And was he not reprimanded for it by PAUL? (Gal 2)  Do you thereby sentence the Apostle PETER to the LOF?

Are you in essence saying that ONLY JEWS will participate in the LOF... Which is clearly misrepresentative of the texts which mention the LOF in the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST...

Above, you also subliminally include in this GENERALIZATION, the "huge pressure" upon ("brethren") which were/are GENTILE converts (which would be including us IN THIS DAY if the LOF is applied to us) ...which had NO "old mindset" concerning the "LAW, ritual sacrifices, literal temple", etc...  :dontknow:

(3)  This is your "theological" answer which IGNORES the "qualifying" elements for which ANY given human being is IMMERSED in the LOF, ...they being:  the FEARFUL, UNBELIEVING, MURDERERS, WHOREMONGERS, SORCERERS, IDOLATORS and ALL LIARS...  ALL human beings "qualify" for the LOF brother Zeek... ALL!

(4)  This "SIN unto DEATH" which you note as the 2nd DEATH --- DISINCLUDES the HUGE balance of humanity from involvement with the LOF, which during its course, has not had a relationship with the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity... thereby as you see it,  they are not subject to its (LOF) "effects", which omits the purpose (of the LOF) which is to eliminate aspects within SINFUL humanity that are undesireable and unacceptable in the HOLY and ETERNAL realm...  :dontknow:

(5)  This line of thinking also IGNORES the FACT that there is NOTHING in the texts which mention the SYMBOLIC "term" LOF... that allude to the premise that ANY shall AVOID it...  :mnah:

Which texts only STATE that some will not be "HURT" of IT... Why would it even suggest that some would not be "hurt" of it, if these would not be experiencing it at all?   :Whistle:

LOGIC suggests that because it does state that some will not be HURT of it, ...they shall go through that "2nd DEATH", but that "2nd death" will not avail "hurt" concerning them... (btw, the word "hurt" in Rev 2:11 means "to do wrong" in moral, physical or social applications)

Please provide Scriptural substanciation that ANYONE shall avoid the 2nd Death... thanks!  :cloud9:

Now, as humans we all sin, I occasionally lust, think selfish thots etc.  but for those who are made alive in Him, and continue to trust in the risen Christ; who continue to hope, purfify themselves and are righteous despite their "sin".  They have sinned a sin NOT unto death.  They are not to be thrown into the fire; as they continue to LIVE in HIM.   These are the "whoever believes on HIM, will never die".  Believest thou this?? 

But the one's who don't continue in belief, and fall back, despite the spirit of grace, will "perish" (second death).  I John 3:16.

Again... much like the selective theology of many ET believers which conveniently DISINCLUDE themselves from being "called on the carpet" (but readily appoint others to it)... this viewpoint (IMO) is just another of that "theological variety"...  :sigh:

Above, (correct me if I misunderstand you) ...it appears that you make this "continuing in belief" as a WORK which MEN of themselves, perform... usurping the glory of CHRIST in that suggestion... 

We do not "overcome" as a result of OUR effort... CHRIST is He that "keeps us from falling" -- Jude 24

In this observation, you are found excusing "lust" or "selfish thoughts"... and promptly "handing out" the DEATH SIN to those who are "too weak" to stand of themselves concerning the "integrity" of the GOSPEL...  Please!  :thumbdown:

This is how I see it:

FIRST --- GOD is completely and PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL... which notes that:

SECOND --- It is HE who authors, FAITH (Heb 12:2) which leads to REPENTENCE (Rom 2:4) and,

THIRD --- That one "continues" is not due to one's own efforts, rather it is due to "CHRIST's efforts" IN that one, which KEEPS he/she from falling -- Jude 24... which further means that:

FOURTH --- If God keeps ONE from "falling" and not another, in order to maintain His claimed (and Scripturally often repeated) IMPARTIALITY  (Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)...

This ELECTION must needs be according to HIS PURPOSE that some "shall FALL" and that some "shall not FALL" (elect -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:11)...

For as I have noted, we are not able, nor are we prone -- (Jer 17:9) -- OF OURSELVES to accomplish this task... only HE can do this IN us!

MANY shall make the claims of HIS WORK, as their own: 

Matt 7:22  MANY will say to Me in that DAY, Lord Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name DONE many wonderful WORKS?

Claiming HIS WORKING as their own ...IS... the INIQUITY they are "workers of"...   :sigh:  Matt 7:23

peace bro...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

I truly hope to convey my thoughts to you, if after reading them you have questions, I will be happy to try to answer them... and you are welcome to disagree with my findings. It is never my endeavor to change anyones beliefs... THAT is left to GOD only. 

If anything, it is my desire to be a tool in His hand... His blessings be unto you as you continue to search for Him!  :friendstu:

Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

Might I begin by a noting (it is my observation) that the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" is the "REVEALING" of an ETERNAL entity to FINITE or "time-bound" beings (humanity)...

CHRIST cannot be defined by FINITE parameters, such as CHRONOLOGY.  Therefore, when observing the WORD, especially the "revealing" of who and what the WORD, IS... we make our first error by attaching anything which binds the WORD to our FINITE specifications (such as "chronology")...  :dontknow:  (hope thats not confusing!)

IOW -- JESUS (the WORD) is an entity which has NO BEGINNING or ENDING, so that which "REVEALS" Him, cannot be noted as having these characteristics... (chronology is about beginnings and endings, one thing -- following another)  ALL things concerning or alluding to CHRIST ...ARE... they do not "manifest" according to TIME ...OR... chronology.

That said...  The "whosoever was not written in the Book of Life". ...is ALL... Rev 20:15

ALL are "blotted OUT" of the BOOK of LIFE (cast INTO the LOF along with "death and the grave -- which is the created realm of TIME), ...In the ETERNAL, they ARE WRITTEN IN it by HIS LIFE which was given for ALL... for ALL DIE in ADAM... ALL have sinned and come short of LIFE - which IS the WORD (John 14:6) and IS the GLORY of GOD...

The "GWT" is NOW... as JESUS plainly noted:  NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31 ...there is no need for a future JUDGMENT other than that which exposes the (unforgiven) sin of humanity in the resurrection (Rev 3:18), and dissolves it with the "putting on of CHRIST" which is IMMORTALITY (LIFE without temporal parameters such as "beginning/born - end/death)...

ALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL...

IMO (you are welcome to disagree with it) ...those which observe the notations is "the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST" in "chronological" (chapter/verse) order is part of the NATURAL process that prevents "EARS from hearing"...  :Chinscratch:

I don't know if you have any familiarity with my observations Doc... but it is my observation that GOD "working" ALL THINGS, means they have "already been WORKED"... For GOD is not BOUND by TIME in His "WORK" efforts, as are we... Especially the WORKINGS of HIS WORDS which need NOT the manifestations of TIME in order to ...BE...  Rev 13:8 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 48:3

One of my observations, is that many of the things in the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" (the LAST book in the Bible), are found explained by the FIRST book...  :laughing7:

For GOD FINISHED His WORK (the ENTIRE work of creating ALL THINGS which are CREATED) by the close of the 6th DAY... Gen 2:1 ...and thereby, ALL TIME and ALL events (generations) within it were FINISHED at the close of the 6th DAY of Creation... and IN the SABBATH which has NO morning (beginning) or evening (ending), are found ALL THINGS, ...COMPLETE...

I realize that many shall not "get" what I am saying, so if this answer hasn't satisfied you or confuses you in any way, please feel free to ask for clarification and I will endeavor to re-word it in hopes to convey understanding...  :Peace2:

...willieH  :cloud9: