"Saved" from what?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi :hithere:  brother Z  :eek:

Peace be untaya me-bratha  :afFro:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



fearful

G5398
φοβερός
phoberos
fob-er-os'
From G5401; frightful, that is, (objectively) formidable: - fearful, terrible.

Sorry brother Z :eek:  ---

But the bringer of FEAR, does not bring LOVE... for PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTS OUT FEAR... 1 John 4:18

ALL are JUDGED NOW... as JESUS plainly said:  John 12:31  ALL are in the WORLD during their lifetimes, and NOW is when those lifetimes are JUDGED...

We are ALL in the HAND of the LIVING GOD at ALL TIMES, whether we be in the MARRED or REFINISHED conditions -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:18-23

The observation of these verses is INCOMPLETE concerning LOVE -- if FEAR is the result of the observation... and it the intent of the message conveyed...

VENGENCE is an ALREADY FULFILLED item... CHRIST fulfilled ALL on behalf of the SINFUL Children of YHVH... Rom 5 --- where SIN abounded, ...GRACE did (and DOES) ...MUCH MORE ABOUND.  John 1:29 - 2 Cor 5:19

Which is WHY He told HIS FOLLOWERS to FORGIVE Enemies, for GRACE is the NT message of LOVE... and within that message, ...the OT message of VENGENCE is dissolved...  :dontknow:

When ENEMIES are BEFRIENDED, they CEASE being ENEMIES...  :dontknow:

The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS bro... not a message filled with TERROR and VENGENCE which is born of the makeup and content of the NATURAL and CARNAL heart of man...

...willieH  :hithere:  :hithere:  :hithere:

[CHB]

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?


CHB

[Zeek]

Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

Psa 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psa 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 5:7  But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psa 5:8  Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

Psa 5:9  For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 5:10  Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Psa 5:12  For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.


Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi :hithere:  brother Z  :eek:

Peace be untaya me-bratha  :afFro:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



fearful

G5398
φοβερός
phoberos
fob-er-os'
From G5401; frightful, that is, (objectively) formidable: - fearful, terrible.

Sorry brother Z :eek:  ---

But the bringer of FEAR, does not bring LOVE... for PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTS OUT FEAR... 1 John 4:18

ALL are JUDGED NOW... as JESUS plainly said:  John 12:31  ALL are in the WORLD during their lifetimes, and NOW is when those lifetimes are JUDGED...

We are ALL in the HAND of the LIVING GOD at ALL TIMES, whether we be in the MARRED or REFINISHED conditions -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:18-23

The observation of these verses is INCOMPLETE concerning LOVE -- if FEAR is the result of the observation... and it the intent of the message conveyed...

VENGENCE is an ALREADY FULFILLED item... CHRIST fulfilled ALL on behalf of the SINFUL Children of YHVH... Rom 5 --- where SIN abounded, ...GRACE did (and DOES) ...MUCH MORE ABOUND.  John 1:29 - 2 Cor 5:19

Which is WHY He told HIS FOLLOWERS to FORGIVE Enemies, for GRACE is the NT message of LOVE... and within that message, ...the OT message of VENGENCE is dissolved...  :dontknow:

When ENEMIES are BEFRIENDED, they CEASE being ENEMIES...  :dontknow:

The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS bro... not a message filled with TERROR and VENGENCE which is born of the makeup and content of the NATURAL and CARNAL heart of man...

...willieH  :hithere:  :hithere:  :hithere:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Rom 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Zeek]

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


save with fear


G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

[willieH]

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


save with fear


G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Many principles of Scripture are very misunderstood... such as the FEAR you propose above... as part of your message which is supposedly, the GOSPEL...

GOD is LOVE:  1 John 4:8

GOD is PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL is PEACE:  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

NO FEAR in LOVE:  1 John 4:18

NO PEACE in FEAR:  1 John 4:18

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Zeek]

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


save with fear


G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Many principles of Scripture are very misunderstood... such as the FEAR you propose above... as part of your message which is supposedly, the GOSPEL...

GOD is LOVE:  1 John 4:8

GOD is PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL is PEACE:  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

NO FEAR in LOVE:  1 John 4:18

NO PEACE in FEAR:  1 John 4:18

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well, i'll bet those who went through the soon wrath that came upon that generation understood.


To those that accepted that the wrath of God was a good thing and nothing to be feared,  and fell from grace; found out differently.

 

[martincisneros]

Sometimes with the things of God you think, 'Am I losing my mind here or what?"

I've spent many hours, days, weeks, and months thinking that about various things, only to find out later that what I'd been thinking was Word of Knowledge, and/or Discerning of Spirits, and/or Word of Wisdom, and/or Interpretation of other tongues.  Nothing over the last few years has ever taken me by surprise, but I've spent an equal amount of time, or more in denial of what was staring me in the face.  Probably everything that wanders into within a certain radius of me passes in front of my X-ray vision IMMEDIATELY, but I don't yet have enough experience under my belt with this level of the gifts that I've been in for a while to not immediately start thinking that my mind totally made it up. 

I think that that's why when it's really mattered over the last 3 years, that that's why God's had me over into the 1Corinthians 12 kind of faith together with any other manifestation of the Holy Spirit in my life rather than just operating in the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.  Otherwise, I was just going to sit there thinking that I was at either end of the twin evils of judgmentalism or presumption, and that if I just stayed kinda quiet for a while that the moment would pass and nobody would ever have to know where my mind just went for a second there. :Sparkletooth:  I just described all of 2008 for me.  So, if anybody were to ever ask me, which is better -- gifts or fruit?  My answer is FRUIT!!!!!!  'cause as I've said before a few times, the fruit of the spirit will do absolutely everything that the gifts of the Spirit will do. 

But you'll be less startled and will have less to repent of if it was just the natural flowering of your own spiritual life rather than an Outpouring of the Holy Spirit that was being administered/loaded by Christ Jesus in His High Priestly ministry, but you were still the 5 year old with the machine gun in your hands with no idea that that puppy's about to dislocate your shoulder when you start shooting, if you've not grown strong enough yet.  I've been walking around for the better part of two years now thinking privately when something's happened through me, "I swear to God that that was not me. ROFLOL!!"  And the Lord's consistently answered, though with less regularity these days now that I'm starting to become accustomed to it, "No, that was Me.  Are you going to obey Me in this?"  And I just keep saying, "yes, Author/Pioneer of my faith.  Lead the Way and I'll lean on You to perfect/develop my faith to this level so that Your Holy Spirit is never grieved that you ever gambled on me.  If I say I'll never disappoint You, then I'm liable to deny You three times before the rooster crows like Peter did, but if You'll take my hand, We'll walk on this water Together!!"

What's been particularly cool for me is the realization of how relational God is.  I grew up around Pentecost, so I sorta always knew that about Him when it came to anything between us and Him.  But I've been learning over the course of this whole decade that when He's closing a door on a relationship, if you've been walking by faith, then the emotions really won't be there.  It won't be this big ol' weeping and gnashing of teeth if you're where you're supposed to be with Him when He's put His finger on a relationship and says "trust Me, this is poisoning you. Just let go!"  And you're suddenly one experience with the Bread and Cup away from not knowing them from Adam, as the old saying goes.  But any context where He's saying, [as your Mentor and Orchestrator of your destiny,] "now, LOVE!" and suddenly you can't help yourself, whether it's related to things new or old that He's bringing forth in His Kingdom around you.  You suddenly find yourself totally bananas about what He's totally bananas about, whether it's related to your calling, your job, your family, your pets, the noisy neighbors or the weird one, the cop down the street, the idiots on television, and/or the people God says to minister to.  If His Word is abiding in you and you're abiding in His Word, then nothing should ever be impossible to you.  Just plant the seed and it'll grow and you'll get there eventually.  Just as big or bigger than anybody else you've seen growing in their spirit!  I love watching His Written Word do the knitting it was sent forth to do.  My whole life is a product of His knitting work.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Martin, I TOTALLY know what you're talking about in this thread. Exactly. Praise the Lord for His wondrous works among men.  :bowing:

HIS love is NOT an emotion, it's a SPIRIT, and when that Spirit has drug you thru enough processing that He can, He takes you captive to do what HE would, and you are helpless to do otherwise. It's both terrifying, frustrating, and glorious beyond words, all at the same time. But OMG, what the PRESENCE of the fruit is capable of doing WITHOUT A WORD.

The sons of God of Roman's 8 are being formed into warriors of LOVE. We think we know what that means, but we really have no idea until He arrives on the scene in your heart in the fullness of that, even for a second. God help me to make it to the end to be that permanent and functioning habitat of that glorious thing. Father, I give You praise. Blessings....

[martincisneros]

:cloud9: Martin, I TOTALLY know what you're talking about in this thread. Exactly. Praise the Lord for His wondrous works among men.  :bowing:

If you can even possibly relate, sounds like you're the very one I needed to be talking to after I'd posted that prayer thread a couple of years ago that I've just included on the Testimony board a few hours ago.  'Cause things got a bit peculiar with me, for me, starting August 5th of that year.  The Lord, for want of a better way of putting it, pointed out a goal to me that evening and the following 4 months are a semi-blur, where I was acting on it with the speed of literally a subatomic particle.  If there were any Smallville fans here that have kept up with most of the episodes and seasons, it was like when Jor-el had released Clark Kent from his imprisonment in that Native American Cave with the sole goal of capturing the different parts of the Kryptonian crystal that were in different parts of the world, so that the Fortress of Solitude could be built.  And Clark wasn't 'there' at all.  It was only Kal-el pursuing it, including flying, when up to this point 'Clark' is still afraid of heights and isn't flying.  It was unquestionably me, but it was pure me, if that makes any sense: Father and Son. 

I was allowed to do some animal rights, relationship, and other types of rants [as far as approximating articles that I was sharing for a few weeks there on an animal rights website that was sorta the AR version of myspace] that were more sorta me during that time.  But beyond that, I was on my first big mission with the new demension that I'd yeiled to God with that prayer request I'd posted here.  I vaguely remember writing some poetry at the time, [i.e. just highlights of what I wrote,] and 'cause it wasn't any better than it was, although passionately meaningful from my perspective, I'm inclined to believe that that was totally my writing.  But everything else was a total chasing of my promised land and for the maiden voyage of that new demension of my having yielded to God, I didn't expect it to take the shape that it was going to take. 

It was like, when I grabbed that bigger segment of my time and my words with my faith on the prayer boards, it was like I grabbed a soaked sponge that I was able to squeeze more out of -- or like God was able to squeeze more out of me than He'd been able to previous to that, would probably be a better way of putting it.  That really taught me His heart in a special way, that He really does want us to have what would be dearest to us, in addition to the nations being taken captive to the obedience of Christ and all of their thoughts, and anything else of the Universal Restoration and the restoration of wholeness for all of humanity.  He used a very special situation to me to help with my training on this new level.  I don't plan on just letting that go with that prayer request until 2010, and then not trying to bite off more than that.  When He okays it, I want to requisition my words for the following entire decade now that half of this experience is under my belt and I am fairly certain that nothing else is going to come up that's going to make me whiney about needing to be locked up.

I want to see what else is out there for God to create in my life in that way.  And I'm believing God that I won't be one continuing, seemingly never ending bizzaro over that.  There's got to be as much of a balance with the gifts of the Spirit as there are with the fruit of the spirit.  Since they mirror one another perfectly, then ultimately it's about looking the most like Christ Jesus rather than this weird witch or prophet that's a hermit on a mountain somewhere.  I don't believe that that's God's intent.  That often winds up being what happens when just one or two gifts are emphasized together with just two or three of the fruit of the spirit.  When you slip into that, then you can't "make it work" without taking some bizzar extremes of fasting, perpetual isolation and prayer, etc. 'cause you're missing the fundamental of being the express image of the Son of God.  But when it comes to the financial level that I've been believing God for for at least 16 years, and maybe one or two other major, major goals with my faith and harvesting of God's Word, I'd love it if the bigger goals included that autopilot aspect to where I'd be trapped in this season of knowing exactly what I was supposed to be saying and it was totally Him in me on that particular subject, and then to just wake up one day wondering how it happened that I'd be surrounded by an entire economy to take care of all that needs to be taken care of with the faithfullness, postmillenial, UR, and Hosea 2:18 messages that I have.

My initial salvation, baptism with the Holy Spirit, and discovery of my callings in life had this feel/flavor to them of being effortless and then the biggest self doubt afterwards and agonizing emotions afterwards until I finally recognized the pattern and that the very pressure to feel that way was my indicator that I had received precisely what God wanted me to have.  I'd gone a few years without being sorely tempted like that.  I genuinely thought I was beyond ever feeling that way or going through that ever again.  But apparently, it'll [sometimes/rarely] accompany any really big thing that God's wanting to do in your life.  Charles Spurgeon is quoted by J. Oswald Sanders as having said:

Before any great achievement, some measure of depression is very usual....Such was my experience when I first became a pastor in London.  My success appauled me, and the thought of the career which seemed to open up so far from elating me, cast me into the lowest depth, out of which I uttered my miserere and found no room for a gloria in excelsis.  Who was I that I should continue to lead so great a multitude?  I would betake me to my village obscurity, or emigrate to America and find a solitary nest in the backwoods where I might be sufficient for the things that were demanded of me.  It was just then the curtain was rising on my lifework and I dreaded what it might reveal.  I hope I was not faithless, but I was timorous and filled with a sense of my own unfitness...This depression comes over me whenever the Lord is preparing a larger blessing for my ministry. -- end of quote.


And on another page of Spiritual Leadership by J. Oswald Sanders, there's this anecdote of Dr. F. B. Meyer:

Most people who knew Dr. F. B. Meyer would have no hesitation in writing him down as a convinced optimist, ever seeing the bright side of things, ever hopeful, ever vigorous, ever confident of the ultimate triumph of good over evil.  And they would have been right.  He was delightfully hopeful and inspiring.  But he was far too keen and thoughtful a man, too great a student of humanity, and in himself he was unmeasurably human not to be overcome now and again by the pessimistic views of life.  He occasionally went down into the very depths of human despair.  He had seen too often and too clearly the seamy side of life not to be sad and pessimistic now and then. -- end of quote.


Sometimes I think that we're too prone to think that the travail of the spirit and even of the Spirit is entered into willingly every time and with the right frame of the human mind to where we always necessarily know that we're entering into that volitionally by faith.  But if the faith is there that either you, or someone you care about, the Church, or all of mankind would be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus (Galatians 4:19), I don't think that labor pains are always polite, considerate of your wishes, and of when it's the best time and right state of mind for you.  When your spiritual water breaks, here we go!!  You can be down for the count and have already put your hero's costume on the hanger in the closet and if it's time for something you said by faith in God's Word and/or through His Spirit to start inching towards coming to pass, here comes the screaming doubling over that any Christian that hasn't experienced it yet is in for quite the pleasant(?) surprise that you can have to suddenly start pushing with your spirit and practically screaming this thing through in a more dynamic and ultimately more practical way than the passage of a natural human baby from a woman's system into the reality of being in her arms. 

When you see the end result of that kind of Hell for a loved one, and you've been through the fire vicariously in their behalf so that they'd eventually be able to soar with the eagles and the supermen of God's new creation, there's nothing like the miracle of that birthing process where your tears are literally turned into joy.  It's a totally selfless Hell, though when you're going through it, you're no less needing to be held, at least by the hand, as everything within you is screaming for Lazarus to come forth from that grave.  I believe that Charles Finney had someone that they simply called Father Nash that would go into the towns where Charles Finney was going to preach days ahead of Bro. Finney and he'd get two or three others in the town willing to pray like this, and they'd be found in their Hotel rooms on the floor in absolute horrible agony of the burning flames of Hell in their guts, travailing in the spirit.  And a few days later when Bro. Finney would come to preach, just about the whole town would turn to God, with approximately 80% of the converts remaining faithful to God the rest of their lives -- totally unheard of to students of past revivals.  And for someone who's never heard of this before, it's worth rereading the book of Joel [and what's often misinterpreted as depression in the Psalms and Job] in the Old Testament about.  The Apostles did it for over a week in the upper room before the power fell in Acts 2.  We know that that's what they did because of knowing that Scripture in Joel and that the results promised came on that blessed Day that burned as an oven and refiner's fire.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

Many principles of Scripture are very misunderstood... such as the FEAR you propose above... as part of your message which is supposedly, the GOSPEL...

GOD is LOVE:  1 John 4:8

GOD is PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL is PEACE:  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

NO FEAR in LOVE:  1 John 4:18

NO PEACE in FEAR:  1 John 4:18

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well, i'll bet those who went through the soon wrath that came upon that generation understood.

Sorry bro... I am not a "bettin' man"  :laughing7:  Your proposal upon which you wish to "bet" is speculation...

ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

I am presently in a battle with cancer... I do not consider this cumbersome, awful and painful suffering as some "precursor" to even worse things...  :mshock:  Where does it end Zeek?  Where is the PEACE in such things?  Where is the LOVE in such things?  Where is the GOOD NEWS in such things?   

I can tell you that whether I be released from the assault of cancer in THIS life, or in the my death which is to come, it is CERTAINLY an ENEMY of mine... and is COME AGAINST LIFE... and it is quite a bleak and negative vision to think that even worse is to come, when the message of CHRIST is "good news"...  :mnah:

However, ...far be it from me to seek to change your perspective OR belief... You are more than welcome to be "afraid" of GOD...  Personally, the "fear" I hold of Him is the one which HE DESIRES, that being RESPECT... and HONOR... and within such "fear" is found both, PEACE and LOVE...

FEAR ("PHOBOS"/afraid) has TORMENT within its makeup, and is therefore NOT a part of LOVE or PEACE... 2 things that GOD ...IS...

LIFE itself illustrates these things.  I am a parent of 3, grandparent of 10... and I can tell you that NONE of them are "afraid" of me... on the contrary... it has been (and continue to BE) the GOAL of my LOVE, to ASSURE these OBJECTS of my LOVE, that they shall find PEACE and SAFETY in my presence, ...NOT FEAR and DISDAIN because of that FEAR... :rolleye:

In the pursuit of SPIRITUALITY and TRUTH... we do best to recognize the aspects of the SPIRIT and that the FRUIT of the SPIRIT (that which is GLEANED and GROWS from spiritual immersion) [Gal 5:22] is LOVE, joy, PEACE, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance... 

FEAR is not named amongst this "fruit" which are present and GROW, even in NATURAL [HUMAN] LOVE... let alone SPIRITUAL [GOD] LOVE.

These things LOGICALLY exemplify the approach in which the GOSPEL must be presented to those unfamiliar with SPIRITUAL matters...  NONE of these characterize, embody, or serve to paint a picture of FEAR... :mnah:

For with this type of approach, a person which knows nothing of SPIRITUAL matters, shall not be wary or reluctant, ...rather these elements cultivate ASSURANCE and GENTLY and MEEKLY invite the UNBELIEVER unto the TRUTH of WHO and WHAT that our FATHER YHVH ...IS...

To those that accepted that the wrath of God was a good thing and nothing to be feared,  and fell from grace; found out differently.

Again, though I hold respect for you as a student, and friend, ...I see your vision of FEAR and its proximity to GOD in the SPIRITUAL, as a bit, "near  sighted"...   :friendstu:  ...being distant, not clearly observed...

GOD places us upon the earth, and MOLDS us as HE sees fit... within that process is the "MARRING" of the pot (Done IN and BY, the hand of the POTTER)... [Jer 18:4]  and the POT (being molded) has no right to object to the process OR the reasons for that process, whether they be comfortable or uncomfortable...  :dontknow: [Rom 9:18-21]

Part of "His processing" includes His WRATH against that which HE CREATED (evil) and which He by FOREORDINATION, has subjected EACH of us to... that being EVIL and its experiential results... [Rom 11:32]

FEAR is an "item" disposed of in the LOF (which is NOW)... it is a FINITE entity, which has elimination as its destiny [Rev 21:4 -- 1 John 4:18]

In the "end", ...FEAR is NOT the "goal"... nor does it have a portion with the ETERNAL...

The "END" (which is the "BEGINNING") is devoid of things such as FEAR, for they are NOT found within PERFECT LOVE [1 John 4:18], which IS the ETERNAL home of ALL things, as YHVH IS, ALL in ALL...

peace brother...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :happy3:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?


CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[CHB]

willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?


CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank the Lord!!! Am glad to hear you are ok.

CHB

[Zeek]

ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

Hi Willie, I appreciate your responses to me and have always enjoyed your posts, and your intense love for HIM that you reflect. 

I do not agree with your above statement regarding the "wrath of God", as God clearly has set aside the "righteous" who will never die.   I think the Noah story is a great picture of this. 

You quoted:

The wrath of God is against all ungodliness of those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness.




but


Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.


Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


I believe these verses are worth meditating on:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.



One last thing, in your last post to me, you said something to the effect of "you are more than welcome to be afraid of God",

i just wanted to let you know, that no where have i said that "I" was afraid of God. 

but I have posted these verses frequently

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.



blessings



Z      eek

[Zeek]

The wrath of God at the time Romans was written was "future", hence "treasurest" (to reserve) against the day of wrath.

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10 But  glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.


1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments abideth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.


1Pe 1:9  receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think that's wonderful that He's moving in you like that, Martin. PTL. When one of us gets a little closer to the "finish line", it means He's moved the line up a little closer (to completion being a reality for all of us), too. Awesome.

And I totally believe that about Finney, Martin. The Lord showed me that very principle was why Paul wrote most of the NT canon, in that he also said, paraphrasing; I THANK GOD THAT I PRAY MORE THAN YE ALL IN TONGUES.

That's one of the reasons the enemy of our souls fights it so much, because lack thereof limits the harvest. When the Spirit comes thru in intercession, things are released out of the heavenly realm, ie. the OIL flows from the head down to the feet (earthly realm). Blessings...

[Cardinal]

willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?
CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

:cloud9: PTL Willie!  :girlheart: Father, we give You praise for Willie....Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Z  :eek:

The wrath of God at the time Romans was written was "future", hence "treasurest" (to reserve) against the day of wrath.

That is YOUR observance of it (and any other Scripture), and you are welcome to it bro... Natural eyes observe that which is ETERNAL (the WORD), and IMPOSE the parameters of TIME unto the Scriptures (future, past), which is FINITE... and thereby miss the ETERNAL applications of the Holy Scriptures... (present)

Might I preface this post by saying that if you do not pray to YHVH for understanding, before reading what I have to say... I can tell you that you will have little chance of understanding...  and you may well just think I am crazy and that I have flipped my lid...  :laughing7:

NOW, brother Z, is the "DAY of WRATH"... NOW is the acceptable TIME... NOW is the DAY of SALVATION...

ALL that takes place in the Creation of GOD, takes place in NOW...  All TIME, ...All DAYS, ...All EVENTS, ...All the WORK of GOD...

Gen 2:1-3 --- The SEVENTH DAY...

(1) has NO MORNING (beginning), neither does it have

(2) an EVENING (ending) as do the previous "6 days", for it is ETERNAL... and IN the SABBATH of GOD, do ALL THINGS find themselves immersed... FOREVER!

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

You (as do most) observe this verse as denoting the "future" because you are NATURALLY tied to TIME... (as am I)... And IMPOSE TIME upon the HOLY WORDS which are NOT BOUND by TIME,  ...but in the SPIRIT, we are relieved of that boundary as the SPIRIT leads...

The "DAY" of WRATH takes place as is noted in GENESIS bro... NOW... In the "DAY" of GOD...

When the "JUDGMENT" happens, do you picture it "happening" THEN" or "NOW"?  And even if you picture it "THEN", ..."THEN" is just part of "NOW"...

Here's how it goes:

Gen 2:4 ...these are the GENERATIONS of the Heavens and of the Earth, "when" they were created, ...IN THE DAY, that YHVH made the Earth and Heavens...

ALL creation of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING --- ANYONE and EVERYONE, takes place within the DAY of GOD... If it IS CREATED, it takes place in that "DAY"...

Let's look and see what is IN that "DAY"...

Gen 2:1  Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ...ALL... the host of them...

So the ENTIRE compliment of the HOST of the HEAVENS and the EARTH were FINISHED in 6 DAYS, and are found COMPLETE in the SEVENTH DAY... which is the DAY of GOD --- "His DAY"...

CHRIST claimed it... YHVH claimed it... because the SABBATH is the COMPLETION of TIME, and when TIME is COMPLETED, it as an entity, is no longer necessary... for it is FULFILLED, it is FINISHED...  When the game is over, do we keep playing the game? When we eat our supper, do we keep eating it?  When we come back from a trip, are we still on it?

NOW the "DAY":

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh ...DAY... God ...ENDED... His WORK... which He had made, and RESTED on the seventh DAY, from ...ALL... his WORK which He had MADE...

This verse notes that ALL of His WORK was completed and FINISHED... This includes the entire HISTORY of MAN (for ALL the GENERATIONS were within that "DAY"), as well as ALL the events within TIME that those "generations" manifested...   

Were you and I created? (at least as men?)  Then we are DONE in that "DAY"...

CHRIST said: "NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD"... [John 12:31]

Now if the JUDGMENT were at the "end of time", why would He say this Z?

If you analyze this verse... CHRIST is saying that NOW (not at the particular moment He was in) --- ALL of "NOW" is the PLACE and MOMENT of JUDGMENT...

NOW is the Lake of FIRE... THIS is where DEATH and the GRAVE are destroyed... as well as ALL unrighteousness...
NOW is where we find the ACCEPTED TIME, and SALVATION, and REDEMPTION... NOW is the JUDGMENT...

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

And He does! On a daily basis!  "You REAP what you SOW"... not  "You WILL REAP what you SOW"

If GOD were to say... "If you drink that poison, you WILL die"... does "will" mean, at the end of time?  Or do you think "will" means ...NOW?

Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

More of the same in the presence of HIM who SEES ALL...  as we OBEY, we are BLESSED (we "reap what we sow" - blessings)... as we DISOBEY (we "reap what we sow" - cursings)

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

What man has not DONE EVIL Zeek?  Tribulation and anguish cannot be avoided.  We follow CHRIST in SUFFERING, for in SUFFERING are we made COMPLETE -- Heb 2:10

I have cancer in my body Zeek... don't pretend to tell me that TRIBULATION is not in my life... or ANGUISH...  I have no one to blame for its presence but myself... but the great JOY is that it can only have a short "VAPOR of a time" with me... For I am destined to RE-EMERGE in the ETERNAL whence I entered TIME, to the JOYFUL, YOUNG, HEALTHY and ETERNAL SON that I am in Father YHVH...

Rom 2:10 But  glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Just, what I just said!

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The word ETERNAL is basically an INVALID word in any FINITE vocabulary for it cannot be truly comprehended... and it is not the meaning of this verse... this verse is speaking of NOW... 

HONOR and IMMORTALITY is in JESUS CHRIST... and as HE dwells and reveals Himself IN US... His IMMORTAL and HONORABLE LIFE abides IN US...

I've said enough for now...  :heat:

Peace beuntaya...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?
CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

:cloud9: PTL Willie!  :girlheart: Father, we give You praise for Willie....Blessings....

And Father, we give You praise for Rebecca!!!   :boyheart:

...willieH  :happygrin:

[jabcat]

Bro Willie, I'm not asking you to self-reveal/discuss private matters here.  But with this statement "I have cancer in my body Zeek... I have no one to blame for its presence but myself";  given what I understand your POVs (much of which I share) of God being in control (and fortunately for us that includes working all things according for good  :boogie:), is there any further elaboration you can make on this?  Again, without revealing anything inappropriately/unecessarily specific...thanks bro.

[Zeek]

Natural eyes observe that which is ETERNAL (the WORD), and IMPOSE the parameters of TIME unto the Scriptures (future, past), which is FINITE... and thereby miss the ETERNAL applications of the Holy Scriptures... (present)

Hi Willie,

Do you think that Paul, John, Peter  were preaching to the people your interpretation or even more, do you think those at that time who had the mind of Christ were hearing your interpretation?  or were they preaching things to occure in time, (the "natural/time") even though given the Spirit?

The scriptures are full of "future" tense verses.  Were all the spirit filled/mind of Christ deliverers of that message and the recipients of that message to interpret all those from your perspective? 

Your message/interpretation to me sounds nothing like the message of Paul etc, and I can not imagine the recipients of that message at that time, "hearing" your message.  I truly believe that they were in the "last days" and that there was a soon coming judgment upon apostate Israel; which I also believe happened, as documented by History. (I know, this is just natural thinking.  :)) 


Here is an example of how I think time was an important factor, and the recipients were excited to see this day occur (in time)

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

According to what I think you are saying, the only way to see this verse manifest; is to leave the realm of time.  To physically die??


I think that Paul had the mind of Christ (spiritual) and yet still understood the realm of time in which I believe is where judgment and reward occured. 

I enjoy your reading your perspective, and don't necessarily judge it as wrong; I just don't see how one can see your interpretation as the only "spiritual" message and all else is "natural"; (which is what I think you are saying) .  I personally believe that Paul etc were not trying to teach "your interpretation", as they knew that they were to experience the change of ages (in the realm of time). 

I personally think that the reason there are so many interpretations now, is that because a change in ages has occurred and we now are just doing what humans do. 

I beleive what was fulfilled in that "time", can be applied with varied interpretation based on our own individual belief/thinking and personality and revelation;   

But then again, all this truly is my opinion.  :)

For me, I think the scriptures can NOW be applied inwardly as a whole, or what many describe as "spiritual", because I don't think a change of ages is occuring now, but rather is an awakening to the age we already live in. 

blessings brother, and thank you for your patience with me; and I will continue to seek HIM for "spiritual eyes". 

Zeek

[Cardinal]

willieH: Hi Z  :eek:

The wrath of God at the time Romans was written was "future", hence "treasurest" (to reserve) against the day of wrath.

That is YOUR observance of it (and any other Scripture), and you are welcome to it bro... Natural eyes observe that which is ETERNAL (the WORD), and IMPOSE the parameters of TIME unto the Scriptures (future, past), which is FINITE... and thereby miss the ETERNAL applications of the Holy Scriptures... (present)

Might I preface this post by saying that if you do not pray to YHVH for understanding, before reading what I have to say... I can tell you that you will have little chance of understanding...  and you may well just think I am crazy and that I have flipped my lid...  :laughing7:

NOW, brother Z, is the "DAY of WRATH"... NOW is the acceptable TIME... NOW is the DAY of SALVATION...

ALL that takes place in the Creation of GOD, takes place in NOW...  All TIME, ...All DAYS, ...All EVENTS, ...All the WORK of GOD...

Gen 2:1-3 --- The SEVENTH DAY...

(1) has NO MORNING (beginning), neither does it have

(2) an EVENING (ending) as do the previous "6 days", for it is ETERNAL... and IN the SABBATH of GOD, do ALL THINGS find themselves immersed... FOREVER!

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

You (as do most) observe this verse as denoting the "future" because you are NATURALLY tied to TIME... (as am I)... And IMPOSE TIME upon the HOLY WORDS which are NOT BOUND by TIME,  ...but in the SPIRIT, we are relieved of that boundary as the SPIRIT leads...

The "DAY" of WRATH takes place as is noted in GENESIS bro... NOW... In the "DAY" of GOD...

When the "JUDGMENT" happens, do you picture it "happening" THEN" or "NOW"?  And even if you picture it "THEN", ..."THEN" is just part of "NOW"...

Here's how it goes:

Gen 2:4 ...these are the GENERATIONS of the Heavens and of the Earth, "when" they were created, ...IN THE DAY, that YHVH made the Earth and Heavens...

ALL creation of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING --- ANYONE and EVERYONE, takes place within the DAY of GOD... If it IS CREATED, it takes place in that "DAY"...

Let's look and see what is IN that "DAY"...

Gen 2:1  Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ...ALL... the host of them...

So the ENTIRE compliment of the HOST of the HEAVENS and the EARTH were FINISHED in 6 DAYS, and are found COMPLETE in the SEVENTH DAY... which is the DAY of GOD --- "His DAY"...

CHRIST claimed it... YHVH claimed it... because the SABBATH is the COMPLETION of TIME, and when TIME is COMPLETED, it as an entity, is no longer necessary... for it is FULFILLED, it is FINISHED...  When the game is over, do we keep playing the game? When we eat our supper, do we keep eating it?  When we come back from a trip, are we still on it?

NOW the "DAY":

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh ...DAY... God ...ENDED... His WORK... which He had made, and RESTED on the seventh DAY, from ...ALL... his WORK which He had MADE...

This verse notes that ALL of His WORK was completed and FINISHED... This includes the entire HISTORY of MAN (for ALL the GENERATIONS were within that "DAY"), as well as ALL the events within TIME that those "generations" manifested...   

Were you and I created? (at least as men?)  Then we are DONE in that "DAY"...

CHRIST said: "NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD"... [John 12:31]

Now if the JUDGMENT were at the "end of time", why would He say this Z?

If you analyze this verse... CHRIST is saying that NOW (not at the particular moment He was in) --- ALL of "NOW" is the PLACE and MOMENT of JUDGMENT...

NOW is the Lake of FIRE... THIS is where DEATH and the GRAVE are destroyed... as well as ALL unrighteousness...
NOW is where we find the ACCEPTED TIME, and SALVATION, and REDEMPTION... NOW is the JUDGMENT...

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

And He does! On a daily basis!  "You REAP what you SOW"... not  "You WILL REAP what you SOW"

If GOD were to say... "If you drink that poison, you WILL die"... does "will" mean, at the end of time?  Or do you think "will" means ...NOW?

Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

More of the same in the presence of HIM who SEES ALL...  as we OBEY, we are BLESSED (we "reap what we sow" - blessings)... as we DISOBEY (we "reap what we sow" - cursings)

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

What man has not DONE EVIL Zeek?  Tribulation and anguish cannot be avoided.  We follow CHRIST in SUFFERING, for in SUFFERING are we made COMPLETE -- Heb 2:10

I have cancer in my body Zeek... don't pretend to tell me that TRIBULATION is not in my life... or ANGUISH...  I have no one to blame for its presence but myself... but the great JOY is that it can only have a short "VAPOR of a time" with me... For I am destined to RE-EMERGE in the ETERNAL whence I entered TIME, to the JOYFUL, YOUNG, HEALTHY and ETERNAL SON that I am in Father YHVH...

Rom 2:10 But  glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Just, what I just said!

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The word ETERNAL is basically an INVALID word in any FINITE vocabulary for it cannot be truly comprehended... and it is not the meaning of this verse... this verse is speaking of NOW... 

HONOR and IMMORTALITY is in JESUS CHRIST... and as HE dwells and reveals Himself IN US... His IMMORTAL and HONORABLE LIFE abides IN US...

I've said enough for now...  :heat:

Peace beuntaya...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

:cloud9: Willie, you have put into words better than I have EVER been able to, the revelation about what the 7th day is and how it applies to us in a spiritual sense, that was dropped into my spirit many years ago. This is going into my "Willie" folder.... :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Now having said that above, I want to say Zeek, I understand what you're saying too. I just want to point something out. What happened in 70 ad, even though it happened in the time after the NT covenant was brought, was a fulfillment under the principle that these things that happened to them (the natural Jews) were done for our (NT "spiritual" or circumcised of heart "Jews") understanding.

In other words, spiritually speaking, it was another (and very severe) type and shadow, even though in literal time, the NT covenant had already come. He said not one stone would be left standing on another, and that was fulfilled as the Romans were looking for the gold of the temple, that had seeped down between the cracks, having been melted in the fire. Blessings....

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Now having said that above, I want to say Zeek, I understand what you're saying too. I just want to point something out. What happened in 70 ad, even though it happened in the time after the NT covenant was brought, was a fulfillment under the principle that these things that happened to them (the natural Jews) were done for our (NT "spiritual" or circumcised of heart "Jews") understanding.

In other words, spiritually speaking, it was another (and very severe) type and shadow, even though in literal time, the NT covenant had already come. He said not one stone would be left standing on another, and that was fulfilled as the Romans were looking for the gold of the temple, that had seeped down between the cracks, having been melted in the fire. Blessings....

Thanks Cardinal for attempting to understand what i'm saying. 

I think we all are on similar pages in so many ways.  Nathan has done a great job in previous posts of echoing where I have been led in regards to first century fulfillment. 

And I agree to0 with (I think anyway, so hard to communicate by writing sometimes) with what yu are saying Cardinal; and I have no problem with what was "played" out in the first century as a "shadow" of what is going on in us "inwardly".  I believe we all will  "experience" eschatology inwardly, or as some like to call "spiritually".  I don't like the idea or conveying of "if one doesn't see it that way, that they are not seeing with "spiritual" eyes".  As I have tried to point out, imo; Paul had spiritual eyes, and yet did not apply what was happening then all inwardly.  He really was warning about two groups of people, one which would go through destruction, and one which would be saved.   

What i find fascinating, is views like Willie's, which likely are filled with much truth; but yet is not in line with what happened during the first century or in line with (imo) Paul's views at the time.  I am trying to see how one comes to these inward applications, in light of the message preached in the first century.  I try to figure out "what changed" that one can now apply all these scriptures inwardly. 

For me, first century fulfillment has bridged the gap.  It's as if they were "creating unity", and we are "realizing unity".   (don't know if that makes sense).  or (if any of my writing makes sense)

anyway, thanks to all who put up with my endless scripture quoting, and my inability to fully explain myself. 

blessings
Z

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I understand what you're saying Zeek. I think the reason it's so hard to put into words is because we've had the substance of both covenants continuing on all around us as well as in us, at the same time, from the beginning. And there's no way it couldn't be that way, by virtue of the fact that the natural is subject to the both of them, and we're in the natural realm. So both are working together to bring us into completion in Him.

The Lord showed me Paul was an "overlapper". What God did with him actually overlapped two "ages". He was a man born out of season. I believe he was shown all mysteries pertaining to life and Christ raising up in a people that would overcome death, but also that he would not be able to appropriate them while he was alive in shoe leather, because he was born in another "age", in the wrong "season".

In a sense, we're the same, because we have one foot in the old, and one foot in the new, waiting for the move of God that will bring that other foot firmly into the new, to bring in the fullness of the new heaven and bring about our new earth. Blessings....