"Saved" from what?

[legoman]

Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.

That only makes sense if all die at a similar age.
What about a kid that dieds in some accident after living 4 very happy years. Why would that kid get 'hotter fire' in LoF?

Speaking about kids. What about babies that died at the age of 1 month? Do they become adults in the afterlife.
Babies have no sense about good and evil. They can't even say God, let alone they worship Him.

Personally I think those that die as a child or extremely young will still have to grow up in the lake of fire.  There is ALOT of maturing that needs to be done in a 4year old - that will be done in the lake of fire.  In that sense, I suppose you could call that a 'hotter fire' in the LoF.

Likewise with a 1 month old baby.  They haven't learned anything yet.  They will have to grow up and learn just like anyone else.  JMHO but that will be done in the lake of fire.

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

God is impartial: everyone must learn what is necessary to become a son of God.  Its just a question of when they learn it:
- some learn it all in this life
- some learn a bit in this life and the rest in the LoF
- some learn none of it in this life and all of it in the LoF (ie. babies)

Later...

[WhiteWings]

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

[Zeek]

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

I agree. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just throwing this out there for thought......but what if the carnal mind really is the devil as some say? Then if the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), that would make sense. The carnal mind and "his" messages are enmity against God and therefore in direct opposition to the mind of Christ. These are the things in all of us that need to be "burned up". See what I mean?  :dontknow: Blessings....

[legoman]

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

Don't we all learn the hard way sometimes?  In this life or the LoF, it can still be the hard way sometimes.

Think about these verses:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now a baby, who knows very little, will not get many "stripes".  That doesn't mean the baby doesn't need to mature and grow and learn to be a full son of God.

In fact Jesus even talked about how the kingdom belongs to such as these (ie. children).  But I still believe they will need to learn how to be good and humble.  

When God's judgments come, the people will learn righteousness.

Legoman

[WhiteWings]

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

Don't we all learn the hard way sometimes?  In this life or the LoF, it can still be the hard way sometimes.

Let speak for myself only: Much can happen until I die. But if the 44 years I lived sofar are supposed my punishment then I have good news for all of you: God is much kinder than you have imagined sofar...

[Zeek]

The fire upon believers, is a fire that tries one's faith.  It's part of the death/burial/resurrection (drinking of the cup) that love does for another.  Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of the world.  His "body(-us) die and rise up, for a purpose.  Love lays down it's life for another.  The Christ (head and body) are given the blessing of having love shine in our hearts, and through "the cross" lay down our life for the harvest.  It is a blessing to go through the cross.  

Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
.
Psa 1:3  And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Psa 1:4  The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Psa 1:5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.  



I personally see the lof as the loss partaking of "not laying one's life down for another".  Selling one's birthright.


who do those in the LOF die for??  imo; no-one; and it is a "shame".


But, healing.



 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I see that as; the "children" (pure in heart/spirit), the same as those that came down from heaven to inhabit these flesh bodies, their remembrance of their true identity hidden by the wall of partition/carnal mind of "forgetfulness". They were already "adult" in spirit, as those that were one with Him from the foundation of the world. Only the flesh and the mind submitted to the bondage of corruption, is as a natural child. My  :2c: Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Just throwing this out there for thought......but what if the carnal mind really is the devil as some say? Then if the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), that would make sense. The carnal mind and "his" messages are enmity against God and therefore in direct opposition to the mind of Christ. These are the things in all of us that need to be "burned up". See what I mean?  :dontknow: Blessings....

I wrote soemthing similar a few days ago. The verse sounds like God was caught by suprise and as a quick fix He no also uses LoF for humans. That points toward this being LoF. But there is to much that argues against it.
I'll just mention one problem I have with the LoF=now theory.
People leave LoF if they are rightous. In this life that means: they die. Then they go to Heaven.
To be in LoF means we are already judged (and cast in LoF)
One of the things to learn in LoF: no racism.
I'm not the greatest historian in existance but I'm pretty sure Hitlers still wasn't best friends with the Jews. He's in Heaven now filled with hate?

[reFORMer]

A.E.Knoch (who did the Concordant Literal Version) seems to have taught that those not in the first resurrection would be raised to life again for the purpose of undergoing judgment and they would then die again a 2nd death by being put into the lake of fire.  It is just death a 2nd time.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Just throwing this out there for thought......but what if the carnal mind really is the devil as some say? Then if the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), that would make sense. The carnal mind and "his" messages are enmity against God and therefore in direct opposition to the mind of Christ. These are the things in all of us that need to be "burned up". See what I mean?  :dontknow: Blessings....

I wrote soemthing similar a few days ago. The verse sounds like God was caught by suprise and as a quick fix He no also uses LoF for humans. That points toward this being LoF. But there is to much that argues against it.
I'll just mention one problem I have with the LoF=now theory.
People leave LoF if they are rightous. In this life that means: they die. Then they go to Heaven.
To be in LoF means we are already judged (and cast in LoF)
One of the things to learn in LoF: no racism.
I'm not the greatest historian in existance but I'm pretty sure Hitlers still wasn't best friends with the Jews. He's in Heaven now filled with hate?

:cloud9: What I'm saying is, whether in the body or out of the body, the carnal mind and it's messages and the fruit that they brought (works burned up in the fire?), would be burned up by the processing of God's Spirit, which IS fire.

So instead of looking at the LOF as an event in time, maybe it's a process in the timeLESSness of the Spirit of God. Going on all around us at all times and in all "dimensions" of existence, both in the body and out.

We are "judged", every day when presented with the "choose ye this day whom ye will serve", choices presented to us by the Spirit of God vs. the carnal mind. When we choose correctly, that which is not like God (who is a consuming fire), gets consumed (thrown in the "LOF"?).

I'm not saying I'm convinced it is, I'm just saying that for it to "work" with the established principles I DO know of the Spirit, this is how it would have to be, I would think. Blessings....

[Nathan]

Here's one for the numbers in you . . ."lake of fire" is mentioned only 4 times in the entire Bible . . .all four are in Revelation . . and three of the four are in the same chapter . . .chapter 20, the other is in chapter 19.  Of these four references, it's interesting that this subject catches one's imagination the most.

But who is it that's cast into the lake of fire?  Many are trying to say it's now . . . I'm just not sold on that . . not only do I think I'm personally not in it now, but I also think it's not for me at all.

Chapter 19 states that both the beast and the false prophet are thrown in "alive".  Chapter 20 (v.10)states that the devil was then thrown into where the beast and false prophet "are".

Verse 14 states then that death and hell are thrown into the lake . . .
Then, lastly, in verse 15 it states that whoever is not found in the book of life . . .

"book of life" odly enough, is found 8 times . . .and 7 of the 8 are in Revelation . . .the other is found in Philippians of all places . . .but the thing about the book of life I find also interesting is . . .there's no mention of being added into it . . .only being removed from it.

For me, I definitely do not agree with the idea that if a child dies, they go to the lake of fire to mature, or "learn" about whatever it is we're to experience . .there is only ONE entrance into the Father and that's through the Son . . .and there's no implication that the Son requires a lake of fire experience for anyone, other than those who've rejected the finished work of the cross.  And children were at the front of the line in coming to Jesus, they are born in innocense . . .I believe all who are born, are born with their names already in the Lambs book of Life . . .which is to say there's no requirement of a LOF experience necessary.

But when we experience this life and pass from innocense into adulthood . . .our name, our identity can be erased from the book of life . .which simply means that if we don't embrace Christ, our final destination doesn't change, just the route that gets us there changes.  I was born in sin, but also innocense at the same time.  Babies that die, young toddlers that die . . .I don't beleive at all that they're to experience the lake of fire . . I believe they are born in the flesh, but die in grace because they had not yet matured into the ability to understand or choose life or death . . .

I believe that is what the cross is all about . . .it's to enable us to have access unto the Father without having to pay the wages of our sinful state.  In all the 4 verse referring to the LOF . . .none of them imply that believers are experiencing that kind of cleansing reserved for unbelievers.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Bottom line for me is . . . the beast, the false prophet, the devil and of course all who's names are not found . . .all of these for me are different characteristics of "man" . . .the inner, carnal man.  Now, as for death and hell . . .I believe "that" is the homeland of the carnal man . . .and "that" may be what we're confusing our current experiences with when trying to connect them with the lake of fire.

[Doc]

Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

[legoman]

Nathan,

I view it this way.  Everyone's carnality must die.  We are all born carnal.  Even little babies are carnal.  In some sense thats all they know.  "MY TOY.  FEED ME.  I WANT IT NOW!"  etc. The carnality must go before we "get into heaven".

The carnality will be burned out of us by fire (not literal fire, but spiritual refining fire of course).  Either by trial by fire in this life, or by the Lake of Fire after we die.

Little babies who die are still most likely carnal, so they must have their carnality removed just like everyone else.

I think people still get hung up on the Lake of Fire as this wicked place of punishment (even though its not eternal).  Granted, it probably won't be fun, but HEY - this life isn't always fun either.  What it will do is teach us the things in Titus 2.

Everyone needs to have their trials so they can mature and become full sons of God.

Sparrow kindof put me onto this, and I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple weeks.  What do we need to learn?  We need to learn love!  We are being made into sons of God, into his image.  What is His image?  Love!  God is love.  Specifically, love is:
- kind
- patient
- not rude or self seeking
- not keeping a record of wrongs
- rejoices in good
- always protecting
- always hopeful
- never failing
etc.

This is a checklist of what we are to be!  Is a little baby always kind or patient?  No.  So the baby still has some things to learn before it is a son of God.

Am I always kind, patient, protecting, selfless, etc?  No not always.  Therefore I'm not yet ready for the kingdom of God.  God still has more work to do with me - either in this life or the lake of fire.

When one can truthfully say that he is all these things that "love" is described as, then that person is ready for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

[legoman]

Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

Yes exactly.  What does literal physical fire do to physical bodies?  It causes immense pain and death.

What would we learn from that?

The lake of fire is God's judgment and the people learn righteousness from God's judgments.

Even though we know its not eternal, that doesn't mean the lake of fire is still some place of wicked purposeless punishment (but at least it stops after a while).  Yippee, instead of being kept alive in burning fire for eternity, now I find out we are only kept alive in burning fire for a billion years!  How merciful of God!  :winkgrin: No, I can't believe that anymore.

The lake of fire is spiritual and is like all of God's spiritual fires - used for teaching, refining, purging and purifying.  It could be done in the same way that we learn things in this life - by life experience.

[reFORMer]

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire." (Mt 3:11-12, CLV)

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor and be gathering the grain into His barn, yet the chaff shall He burn up with unextinguished fire." (Lk 3:16-17, CLV)

The chaff is the hard husk surrounding the grain.  It is not some other plant; but, it is part of the grain, the part that must be removed to make the grain usable.

[Zeek]

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire." (Mt 3:11-12, CLV)

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor and be gathering the grain into His barn, yet the chaff shall He burn up with unextinguished fire." (Lk 3:16-17, CLV)

The chaff is the hard husk surrounding the grain.  It is not some other plant; but, it is part of the grain, the part that must be removed to make the grain usable.

but what about the tares??

[martincisneros]

Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

I'm pretty close to abandoning the book of Revelation as far as any kind of future prophecy with the brief exceptions like Revelation 5:13 where there's demensions of that that I believe are coming that we've not seen yet when you compare that passage with all relevant similar passages in the Psalms and Prophets of the Old Testament.  Isaiah 66 is bothering me about the Post 70AD world possibly being the New Heavens and New Earth anticipated by the book of Revelation.  And yet, 2Peter 3 describes a coming cataclysm that'll bring New Heavens and New Earth, that as I've been indicating more and more recently may be spiritual, but which is contrasted with Noah's Flood to where it could more likely be global.  Millenium, White Throne Judgment, and New Earth seem to be simultaneously true right now from what I'm seeing both from the Bible and time with Holy Spirit.  And then a week from now I'll see that that was only one layer that I'm looking at, and that the reason I'm seeing it now is 'cause I wasn't willing to look at it previously, and then I'll wind up being a total futurist with the whole book of Revelation in about another month!  Probably.  I was trying to find the passage that Tony Nungesser had brought up on the boards sometime back, from Isaiah, where there was death on the New Earth.  Not sure if I was looking at the same passage, or if it's a different one, or if it was a translational thing with the Concordant Literal Old Testament.

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

I'm pretty close to abandoning the book of Revelation as far as any kind of future prophecy with the brief exceptions like Revelation 5:13

Martin,
This is not an argument but just a question.
Do you also abandon other books for similar reasons? Why (not)?
The creation of starting at Genesis 1:1 is completed. I think most agree on that. So we could abandon that part for future prophecy? Or not? Revelation speaks about new heaven and earth. Perhaps created similar to the Genesis account?
Just asking....

[reFORMer]

Jesus says, "Behold, I make all things new;" not, I make all new things.  Not just us; but, all of creation is going to be glorified.  He will make new realities later on, or so I think.  We are already in the change.  Our eyes are being opened to "Behold!" Him making all things new.

[martincisneros]

Martin,
This is not an argument but just a question.
Do you also abandon other books for similar reasons? Why (not)?
The creation of starting at Genesis 1:1 is completed. I think most agree on that. So we could abandon that part for future prophecy? Or not? Revelation speaks about new heaven and earth. Perhaps created similar to the Genesis account?
Just asking....

You're right!  So many different levels to the whole thing, that I momentarily fried of thinking I'd ever have it down.  I know better, but I slipped into a Western mindset about an Eastern Book.  I've had so much on my mind recently and some new amazing experiences with God, that I momentarily slipped into abandoning my previous understandings of it, but out of fullness of all that was going on in my life rather than out of unbelief.  And I knew better.  Something I've been believing God for, for 17 years seems like it's finally touchable, for want of a better way of putting it.  I prematurely spoke out of turn regarding the one Book of the New Testament that speaks a special blessing to those that read and keep it's contents.

Jesus says, "Behold, I make all things new;" not, I make all new things.  Not just us; but, all of creation is going to be glorified.  He will make new realities later on, or so I think.  We are already in the change.  Our eyes are being opened to "Behold!" Him making all things new.

He did this with me this evening as I slept for about 3hrs.  I'd gotten into unbelief in December of '07 regarding something, and my unbelief had cost me dearly for over a year.  I'd gotten into unbelief about a major pillar of my life, and I'm not talking about a doctrinal matter although given a moment I could probably open the Book and "go there," to the total shock of quite a few but what I'd say with regards to something personal wouldn't have just a whole lot of baring on people here.  And as He was straightening out my thinking over the last few days, I was noticing myself making a comeback from a blown chip or whatever.  And as a result of finally just resting in something all day today that had been my choking point on my faith previously for a while, suddenly as I rested this evening for about 3 hours all of a sudden the healing was completed. 

I'd stepped off into condemnation sooo badly as a result of my unbelief that the things that I would bring up from the Scriptures were about the only thing that I could remember.  I was like Superman stripped of his powers and desperately trying to find 'em again, but inspite of everything there was that green crystal glowing that he caught a glimpse of in the corner of his eye.  I was stunningly healed in an area of my body that I'll say more about later as the Lord leads.  Anyway, while I'm on my cultural myth illustrations, I saw this medical building again today 'cause I accompanied a family member on their doctor's appointment.  Not sure how this is going to work out with everything else God's been telling me.  But I suddenly knew that that building was mine.  It's such a neat architectural building that none of the photos that I could find online do it justice.  It's about the only building that I've ever had it really, really badly on me to want to climb that puppy like Spiderman! LOL! 

And I think that I found out why today as it dropped in my heart with a sense of ownership.  Not sure if that 6 story building will make for a nice publishing house someday or what God's got in mind.  So I was like, "okay, so that's why I'm always wanting to climb this thing when I'm on this part of town... Rascal's mine! LOL!"  And then I got inside and got to thinking of the kind of costs involved, and everything else that's on my to-do list for the next two hundred to a thousand years and couldn't figure out how it would possibly fit in.  And there's these metal doors that lead into the building and they always creek really really badly at an exceptionally high pitch sometimes, but never in a low one.  It's always the sound of that creepy old house from an old B-movie, from an Elvira movie or whatever. 

Right when I was starting to think that I was just being vain, gaudy, and whatever, suddenly someone walks out the right door of the two sets of metal doors, heading outside.  And as the doors are closing the sound is -- I swear I'm not making this up! LOL!! -- the sound was a dematerializing/rematerializing Tardis from Doctor Who.  I just busted out laughing and couldn't stop laughing for about 20 minutes.  If there was ever something just totally natural that God decided to teasingly attach meaning to at a pivotal moment of calling someone's thinking up to another level!  It only made that sound that one time and the rest of the time it was just the haunted house creeks.  Nothing a little WD-40 wouldn't fix.  And I genuinely feel like it's the whole enchillada that I'll have when the time is right, but I'm leery of a false prophecy on that and will simply say that minimally the land's mine in His timing.  With some of the bigger things that God will tell me, if He doesn't just blurt it out of me, I'll tend to just let it pass by and wimp out of using my faith on it. 

I've been really bad over the years about follow through on things He'd tell me.  And then there's a mixture of opinion among sooo many preachers about whether you should start talking the plan of God, or whether you better keep a lid on it or you're going to wind up like Joseph in the book of Genesis, about half beaten to death and sold by his brothers.  But think it through though, and this is what God's been chasing me with for about 3 years and hasn't allowed me much wiggle room regarding it, that when He tells me something and I'm 100% sure it's Him, then I better say something and start the process.  Let's see, should Joseph had kept his mouth shut and perhaps all of his relatives to have died and that promise to him from God to have only had future ages fulfillments? 

From what God's been doing in correcting my thinking, I'll run towards the beating and being thrown in that dungeon if it means being the number 2 guy in the Kingdom in a few years.  Duh!  Getting stomped and kicked by just normal life and dying as a nothing or worse, or taking your licks for something that's going to really matter to not only yourself but to everybody you care about and everything you've ever believed in, with no third choice seemingly available in this age?  Life's been hard enough without backing out at the moment of truth, when it's no longer the devil dangling his carrots in front of you that wind up being extremely sour in the middle, but where it's God saying to enter into His joy. 

Worthiness and being ready has zero to do with stepping into the process.  It's God's promises that are the provisions of not only their particulars but of the cleansing, refining, and perfecting.  Using the pretty bad translation on this for a moment, Peter felt pretty unworthy when Lord Jesus filled his boat with fish.  He told Jesus to just go from him 'cause he couldn't deal with this.  St. Paul's ministry would have been hindered if He had departed from Peter per Peter's plea.  Peter's actually the one that was used by God, not only on the day of Pentecost but in opening the door to ministering the Gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 10.  There is no part that's unworthy if we genuinely believe God's playing chess and has the next several moves planned out predicated about this and that falling into line with what He says. 

The thread asks the question "saved from what?"  Saved from thinking that anything whatsoever belongs to the devil and an unrighteous generation.

Anyway, grin and bare it if you've got any silly religious ideas that Christians should be poor or any goofy ideas about what Kingdom modesty is supposed to be like 'cause it was God that earlier looked at this and was like oh yeah!! :cool:  I'm just listening and open for Him telling me what's the seed to this:

(http://www.hsc.unt.edu/departments/familymed/images/jpgs/PCC%201web.jpg)

[sparrow]

Nathan,

I view it this way.  Everyone's carnality must die.  We are all born carnal.  Even little babies are carnal.  In some sense thats all they know.  "MY TOY.  FEED ME.  I WANT IT NOW!"  etc. The carnality must go before we "get into heaven".

The carnality will be burned out of us by fire (not literal fire, but spiritual refining fire of course).  Either by trial by fire in this life, or by the Lake of Fire after we die.

Little babies who die are still most likely carnal, so they must have their carnality removed just like everyone else.

I think people still get hung up on the Lake of Fire as this wicked place of punishment (even though its not eternal).  Granted, it probably won't be fun, but HEY - this life isn't always fun either.  What it will do is teach us the things in Titus 2.

Everyone needs to have their trials so they can mature and become full sons of God.

Sparrow kindof put me onto this, and I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple weeks.  What do we need to learn?  We need to learn love!  We are being made into sons of God, into his image.  What is His image?  Love!  God is love.  Specifically, love is:
- kind
- patient
- not rude or self seeking
- not keeping a record of wrongs
- rejoices in good
- always protecting
- always hopeful
- never failing
etc.

This is a checklist of what we are to be!  Is a little baby always kind or patient?  No.  So the baby still has some things to learn before it is a son of God.

Am I always kind, patient, protecting, selfless, etc?  No not always.  Therefore I'm not yet ready for the kingdom of God.  God still has more work to do with me - either in this life or the lake of fire.

When one can truthfully say that he is all these things that "love" is described as, then that person is ready for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

Amen, Brother!!
:high5:

[Nathan]

Nathan,

I view it this way.  Everyone's carnality must die.  We are all born carnal.  Even little babies are carnal.  In some sense thats all they know.  "MY TOY.  FEED ME.  I WANT IT NOW!"  etc. The carnality must go before we "get into heaven".

The carnality will be burned out of us by fire (not literal fire, but spiritual refining fire of course).  Either by trial by fire in this life, or by the Lake of Fire after we die.

Little babies who die are still most likely carnal, so they must have their carnality removed just like everyone else.

I think people still get hung up on the Lake of Fire as this wicked place of punishment (even though its not eternal).  Granted, it probably won't be fun, but HEY - this life isn't always fun either.  What it will do is teach us the things in Titus 2.

Everyone needs to have their trials so they can mature and become full sons of God.

Sparrow kindof put me onto this, and I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple weeks.  What do we need to learn?  We need to learn love!  We are being made into sons of God, into his image.  What is His image?  Love!  God is love.  Specifically, love is:
- kind
- patient
- not rude or self seeking
- not keeping a record of wrongs
- rejoices in good
- always protecting
- always hopeful
- never failing
etc.

This is a checklist of what we are to be!  Is a little baby always kind or patient?  No.  So the baby still has some things to learn before it is a son of God.

Am I always kind, patient, protecting, selfless, etc?  No not always.  Therefore I'm not yet ready for the kingdom of God.  God still has more work to do with me - either in this life or the lake of fire.

When one can truthfully say that he is all these things that "love" is described as, then that person is ready for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

This is quite a list . . .I think it's one thing to expect this of an adult, but an entirely different matter when seeing it applicable to a toddler or an infant.  I responded to this yesterday but I was timed-out and lost the whole message.  Romans 3 speaks about law is the knowledge of sin . . . to me, this is saying that when I focus on the shadows in others, I'm actually living in law.  But the righteousness of God manifests "without" the law.  Or, "outside" of the law . . .or . . .by ignoring the restraints placed by the law, we are free in Christ.  So if this is the case, then measuring one with a list such as this really isn't profitable.

Yes, Scripture quotes a list of characteristics that love is . . .but one, love doesn't manifest only by what's on the list . . and two, true love makes no logical sense.  It doesn't make sense that we were called righteous before we ever acknowledged God at all.  It doesn't make sense that we deserve death but are given life.  It doesn't make sense that a person can be exposed to life and still choose death . . .even though in the end, life is still granted.
I'm not willing to believe that little babies, and children of innocence are to experience this LOF which may have wonderful outcomes in the end, it still appears to be a place of great violence.

We scratch out heads at the idea of ET'ers choosing to believe that their friends and family are in for an eternity of fire and torment when it's so much liberating to believe that all will be saved . . .and yet, ya want to choose to believe that babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF?  I just can't get myself to do it.

[legoman]

We scratch out heads at the idea of ET'ers choosing to believe that their friends and family are in for an eternity of fire and torment when it's so much liberating to believe that all will be saved . . .and yet, ya want to choose to believe that babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF?  I just can't get myself to do it.

Hi Nathan,

Somehow I think you and I have a different picture in our head of what the LoF is.  Yes for someone like Hitler, the LoF will probably be pretty awful.  Perhaps he will have to witness and endure and understand all of the pain his victims went through.  Who knows - whatever it is, Hitler will have a lot of correction to be done.

But for others it will be different.

What do you think will happen to a little baby that dies and goes to heaven?  I don't think it will stay a baby forever - therefore it will need to grow, learn, and mature.  Where is that going to happen?  The baby will have its own LoF experience.  Don't picture this as "hell and brimstone" fire punishment.  But instead picture it as the baby just grows up.  It will go through adolescence, and adulthood, with all of the trials and learning that go along with it.  How this will be done specifically I don't know, but it will provide "equivalent life experience" as if the baby had lived a normal life.

IMHO The LoF is primarily for learning and correction.  Each person in the LoF will have their own unique experience.

Peace...

[CHB]

Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.

That only makes sense if all die at a similar age.
What about a kid that dieds in some accident after living 4 very happy years. Why would that kid get 'hotter fire' in LoF?

Speaking about kids. What about babies that died at the age of 1 month? Do they become adults in the afterlife.
Babies have no sense about good and evil. They can't even say God, let alone they worship Him.

Personally I think those that die as a child or extremely young will still have to grow up in the lake of fire.  There is ALOT of maturing that needs to be done in a 4year old - that will be done in the lake of fire.  In that sense, I suppose you could call that a 'hotter fire' in the LoF.

Likewise with a 1 month old baby.  They haven't learned anything yet.  They will have to grow up and learn just like anyone else.  JMHO but that will be done in the lake of fire.

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

God is impartial: everyone must learn what is necessary to become a son of God.  Its just a question of when they learn it:
- some learn it all in this life
- some learn a bit in this life and the rest in the LoF
- some learn none of it in this life and all of it in the LoF (ie. babies)

Later...

Hi All,

I lot of good post since I posted. Since my last post I haven't been able to access the forum because of some stupid "this page cannot be displayed".    :sigh: Someone said I should register again and maybe that would help. Anyway, I hate to lose my post count but the next time this happens I will register again.

Legoman,

I agree with what you are saying. If a baby dies before, say, age five wouldn't he or she need to learn who Jesus was and what salvation was all about? I believe so. Although, I am not one who believes we go on to heaven when we die. I believe we will be resurrected when Christ returns and those who haven't learned about salvation or don't know God will be taught of God. I also agree with what Cardinal has said, I don't know about the Satan part yet but have been studying that as well. This could very well be right, makes sense.

I also believe the lake of fire is a spiritual fire where one dies to self, where we get rid of our way of thinking and become one with God, that is, our minds will think like his. All of the carnal things and things that are contrary to God will be destroyed in it. I don't think the lake of fire is punishment the way most religions think it is but a correction, and learning experience and isn't that what this life is all about? 

It says "death and hell is thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death". Ok. when everyone is resurrected death and hell will be no more and everyone will live in the lake of fire until they have matured spiritually and reached the point of being one with God. Then they will become immortal. That way death and hell {grave} will be thrown into the lake of fire.{life}

Another thing I was thinking too, like Martin said, and I could be wrong but I believe at least part of the book of Revelation has been fulfilled.

Just some thoughts I had will reading you posts.

WhiteWings,

I looked up a few scriptures about fire while I couldn't get back on here. You will have to look them up though.  (Deut. 4:33-36) (Isaiah 9:18:19) (Luke 12:49) (Isaiah 43:2) (1Peter 1:7) Isaiah 33:11-15)

Bottom line is I think, Christ didn't save us from anything, He saved us FOR something.

CHB