"Saved" from what?

[Nathan]

CHB,

Yes it is interesting.

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc. 

Not that I don't see us being judged in the here and now (ie. judgment begins with the house of God) - believers judged now, non-believers judged later etc.  We definitely go through trials by fire in this life, but I don't think that this world is the lake of fire (99% sure).

Surely God will have a way of preaching the word and the good news to those in the lake of fire.  Will it be done directly through the saints and Christ, or more subtly?

It does make me wonder what will the lake of fire be like.  Maybe it will be just another version of this world, except now those in it will see all the ramifications of their actions - and this will cause great shame and repentance.  Or perhaps it will be like a 3D video of our whole life played back before us, where we see everything we did and how we had sinned and hurt people in our own arrogance - again causing great shame and repentance.

But the really interesting scenario would be if the lake of fire was just another version of this same world, and the inhabitants of that world didn't realize they were in the lake of fire - they just thought they were living their life!  They would live on until they realized their predicament and humbled themself to come to Christ.

Either way we will be humbled, shamed, and eventually repent. 

But does every knee bow before or after that experience?  I don't know...

The only reason I would hesitate to say we're experiencing the lake of fire now is because it's essentially not for us . . .if your name is in the book of life, then the lake of fire is not for you . . .however . . hell is cast into the lake of fire . . .and for me . . .i do think we experience hell on earth for the purpose of bringing us to a stronger place in Christ than before . . . I guess that could lead to the question, what's the difference between hell and the lake of fire?  My answer would be . . .(tongue and cheeking it at this point) one is with Christ already, the other is to enable us to be with Christ

[martincisneros]

As far as the Hell in our lives, such as the case with Job's friends being intolerable during that time period that he was nevertheless guarding his tongue, one of my biggest questions right now that I'm still sorting through is the James chapter 3 Gehenna that we bring into our lives with abuses of the tongue that'll even turn the steering wheel of nature around us and of our bodies, according to James chapter 3 where we're speaking in ways contrary to how 1Peter 3 says to inherit the blessing.  And contrasting that with the "Hell" that'll come our way through persecution for living godly, for enjoying the hundredfolds in all of the areas of life that Jesus said we would, could, and should, and for anything else that the Scriptures indicate you might take some heat. 

Our Hell is either self generated, apparently, or it's generated by others and heaped upon us by them.  One's the heat of velocity towards the Kingdom, the image of Christ, and having the hundredfold, [all with the tongue rooted in His Covenant promises in the Scriptures and then acting according to the Holy Spirit's guidance on the specifics,] while the other one is from being in stationary orbit around all of the negativity of this present natural world.  If we would judge ourselves, we wouldn't be judged with the world, but when we judge ourselves we're chastened of the Lord so that we won't be judged with the world. 

Every time I hammer away with the Word in my private time regarding my healing, or the fullness of the blessing in my life, or the salvation of the world Scriptures, or those that God has pointed out to me that outline my calling or the renewal of my youth, then this passage that I've just quoted from 1Corinthians 11 says that I'm being chastened by the Lord so that I won't be judged with the world.  And as I'm overcoming by that, Revelation 2:26-27 goes on to say that I take my place with Him at the potter's wheel and as a shepherd of nations.  So that the Scripture that's written elsewhere, I'm thinking the third chapter of 1Corinthians, is fulfilled that he that is spiritual judges all things, but is himself rightly/accurately/fruitfully judged of no man/woman in this world, as you're entering into those things revealed to you by the Holy Spirit that haven't occured to the eyes and ears of the world thus far. 

The Gospel of John tells us to judge with righteous judgments.  And the Covenants that make up the Gospel are the predetermined righteous judgments.  I keep searching for the definitive Scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to tell me that you can completely and permanently throw the devil out of your own Garden of Eden in this life when you've reached a certain stage of growth and conformity with the image of Christ.  I'm seeing too much from the Scriptures of the possibility, but haven't found that singular Scripture that's definitive that doesn't involve taking together absolutely everything that God's showing me and piecing together for me as all of my "doctrines" of the Scriptures become increasingly more and more interdisciplinary. 

But the Holy Spirit still keeps telling me to keep digging with the biggest smile on His face as though if it were a rattle snake it would have gotten me 'cause it's just right there in front of my face, but it's not occured to me yet in that demension.  Perhaps John 14:12.  Perfected love, passion, and faith on the Scriptures can definitely give you long seasons of invincibility.  I've experienced those.  But I keep believing God for Him to open that door to me in the Scriptures of that permanent resting place, to where even if I'm never able to convince another human being that that's what that's specifically saying in the Word, but I'd still be perpetually enjoying the ongoing perpetual harvest of it inspite of the naysayers. 

There should come a point where when the ways of the Lord have fully become your ways that some of these external things for lessons and development shouldn't be necessary pressures, temptations to get distracted, or whatever.  After a while, if you're just not going to change from doing things His way, then it should be like "what's the point?" of anything adversarial in your life??  The Bible does say that when a man's ways please the Lord that He causes even his enemies to be at peace with him.  Perhaps that's the verse I've been trying to light upon, but couldn't quite put my finger on.  There should be a table before us in the presence of our enemies after a certain point and not just spiritual granades, machine guns, etc. going on all of the time. 

Rest in the book of Hebrews should mean actual rest, even as He's ceased from His works and has rested, and the implication of the book of Hebrews to me is that that's what all of the warfare in this life is about.  It is to get to that place where you're not just restful in your mind and keeping all of your cares cast upon Him, but where there aren't flare ups of darkness within eyesight of you with obvious exceptions that if you decide to feed on the world's pornographic news programs that are meant to give you a steady diet of all that the devil's trying to accomplish and are about nothing else, 'cept for the devil's occasional perverse commentary on a fellow brother or sister in Christ that does nothing else except for divide the Body, or the segments of the Body that'll fall for it being divided from those segments of the Body that won't fall for it.

[CHB]

And when you give your word about something, think before you speak and offer no additional commentary on what you'd previously said with a "now what I really meant" in a way that tries to take any part of the implications back.  If you shot your mouth off without considering the context and clarity of your words and all of their potential ramifications,

Well.   :mshock:  I was trying to say what I was saying, so you could understand what I was talking about. I certainly didn't intend to take back any thing I said. But you didn't get it, so never mind.  :bigGrin: You never explained the verses I ask for you to explain. Why?

I could say a lot more about what you wrote and a lot more about the Covenants but I am going to just leave it alone.  

CHB

[martincisneros]

I was addressing integrity issues in the Body and the place of Covenant in that rather than attacking you.  Sorry if you misunderstood me as attacking you.  That's never my intent.

[CHB]

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc.

Hi,

Could it be that this part hasn't been fulfilled yet? The GWT judgment will occur at the end, right?  I don't think ever thing happens at the same time.

CHB

[ducktapehero]

One of these days I'm gonna have to pay someone to "dumb down" this conversation so I can understand it.  :mshock:

[legoman]

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc.

Hi,

Could it be that this part hasn't been fulfilled yet? The GWT judgment will occur at the end, right?  I don't think ever thing happens at the same time.

CHB

Possibly.  I have a hard time piecing together from scripture when exactly everything occurs:

GWT judgment
lake of fire
every knee bows

What is the order?  From Rev it looks like lake of fire is after GWT, but Revelations is all symbols and not necessarily in linear order.

[martincisneros]

I've never been able to buy into this thing that some people hold to of this life being the Lake of Fire, however, I wouldn't immediately, without the Holy Spirit giving me further light, argue against this life being the Great White Throne Judgment.  The Books are opened and being opened all of the time further and further to those that are discipled by the Holy Spirit with the Holy Bible.  Each man is being judged according to his works as many of my posts have always seemed to be abundantly clear about.  And those who are saying things other than what's in the Scriptures, and from the Scriptures God's leadings through the Holy Spirit are having a really bad ending in this life, no matter how saintly their character, how sweet they are to be around, etc.  Many, inspite of giving up their bodies to be burned without Scripturally revealed Covenant love are still hearing that "depart from Me, I never knew you" because they're not building their lives on the rock of the Scriptures and what the Scriptures are manifesting of His rulership.  So, they're having to get in their Bibles and then come back into the Throne Room the correct way in the way the Scriptures lay out for proper protocols with their High Priest with the promises of the Word.

Many are having a really bad ending with being burned up with diseases and the carnal mind's attempts at treating them independent of the Word.  Or are having a really bad ending in poverty.  But again, the same endings for loved ones and enemies alike that aren't finding their name written in the promises and principles of the Scriptures that have always been abundantly clear to me to be the Lamb's Book of Life besides what's labeled by many as Word of Faith or Postmillenialism.  Those are just theological and "movement" terms identifying the building of the momentum of something in segments of the Body, but to me it's simply people finding their names in the Lamb's Book of Life of the Covenants of the Scriptures.  But as someone said, anything we jump over the millenium regarding like that, whether with those claiming that this is the Lake of Fire, or my query as to whether this life may be the White Throne Judgment does seem to upset the traditional understanding of the ordering of the events. 

But, you could Scripturally call the millenium that time period when more and more people up to and including all of mankind on the earth are walking by faith and not by sight and being equipped by the Holy Spirit with the Scriptures for every good work.  There's a massive move of the Holy Spirit and has been for the last 60+ years among those of us who are alive and remain to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and to so ever be with Him seated in heavenly places far above all of this natural domain with the Scriptures, as the Books of His Covenants are being opened.  And those of us who've progressed further have caught the vision of the total recreation of this world with the Gospel out of the darkness that's been upon the face of the deep and the formlessness and void that we've seen around us in the natural order of things.



One of these days I'll catch my typos while I'm still typing something.

[reFORMer]

I was addressing...issues

At the bottom of your posts you have an itty bitty, teeny tiny, eenie weenie something that didn't enlarge in my word processer.  It does expand immediately on its own when pasted in these Post reply boxes.  For those who wonder, it's 2 Corinthians 2:14.  What I'm curious about Maritin, is why so small?  Are you signaling that you're working with subatomic particles now? that whoever has, more shall be given him? that you have an affinity with the widow's mite? what?!

[martincisneros]

LOL!  Actually 'cause many are squinting at it anyway.

[CHB]

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc.

Hi,

Could it be that this part hasn't been fulfilled yet? The GWT judgment will occur at the end, right?  I don't think ever thing happens at the same time.

CHB

Possibly.  I have a hard time piecing together from scripture when exactly everything occurs:

GWT judgment
lake of fire
every knee bows

What is the order?  From Rev it looks like lake of fire is after GWT, but Revelations is all symbols and not necessarily in linear order.

Another view that might sound ridiculous to some is, what if all of these things are happening now and will continue right up till all is in all?

Take for instance, we are being judged now, knees are bowing every day, every man in his own order. It says everyone will be sprinkled with fire. We are going through fiery trials all the time.   According to (Rev.7:14) (Rev, 20:11-13) the GWT judgment is after the tribulation, and before the death of death which is cast into the lake of fire. Some believe the tribulation has already happened and if Christ has paid for all sin why will we be judged again, wasn't Christ judged for us?

Who is to say this lake of fire didn't already exist? Maybe it exists even now? It doesn't say this lake of fire only exist at the end.

These are just some thoughts I have about it all, nothing concrete.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Who is to say this lake of fire didn't already exist? Maybe it exists even now? It doesn't say this lake of fire only exist at the end.

Agreed. It only says "...was prepared for the devil and his angels.."
Could be 5 minutes ago but also 5 milenia ago.
A bigger problem I have with that verse is that it sounds like God was caught by suprise and had to change His plan. I read the verse as: "...was prepared for the devil and his angels but now it will also be used for mankind"

About the remaining part of your post; Are you saying LoF, life, GWT, torment are all taking place right now?(parallel)

Some believe the tribulation has already happened and if Christ has paid for all sin why will we be judged again, wasn't Christ judged for us?

"I came not to judge the world but to save the world" I wonder if that has a timelimit? If not your assumption could be true because Jesus will never judge. And there can be no GWT without judgement.

"if the days weren't shorted no flesh would remain"
That verse is a bit problematic in the light of the above. If it is taking place for nearly 2000 years what is the shortening about?

[CHB]

Hi WhiteWings,

You have some good questions. Lets keep digging, the more we all share on this the more light will be illuminated. Maybe we need a new thread, I don't know?

I looked up all the references to fire but I think I need to study more on this.

You asked if I thought the Lake of Fire, life, GWT judgment, were all taking place right now?  This was what I was wondering about? I am not sure but why couldn't it be? If the wages of sin is death, period and Jesus died for us all, why do we have to be judged, wouldn't that take away from what Jesus accomplished. If we died, was buried, then resurrected with Him, what is left? Now, does this apply to everyone? Did Jesus only die for some of us?  Lots of questions to be answered.

CHB



CHB

[WhiteWings]

You asked if I thought the Lake of Fire, life, GWT judgment, were all taking place right now?  This was what I was wondering about? I am not sure but why couldn't it be?

Basicly I'm willing to accept any interpretation. Including yours.
Until I see verses that seem to contradict that. IF I didn't pull the verses out of context! That's not uncommon so you still have my full attention. So lets continue.

If the wages of sin is death, period and Jesus died for us all, why do we have to be judged, wouldn't that take away from what Jesus accomplished.

Jesus paid and we go free. The main question for what exactly did He pay.
All sinned. Wages of sin is eternal death. Jesus payed for that so no more eternal death.
But I think He didn't pay to keep us out of LoF. We still need some good cleaning before we enter heaven.
Revelation takes place after Jesus died. And Revelation clearly speaks about being judged and cast into LoF.
So I think LoF is still on the menu.
In the future or right now?
Perhaps things changed when Jesus died but the witch of Endor passage speaks of disturbing rest. That sounds like still being dead. So at that point things weren't happening all at once. Unless...... rest was Heavinlt rest/peace.
Think not but.... :dontknow:

Maybe we need a new thread, I don't know?

Perhaps yes. Kinda oftopic. Maybe  a mod can split up the thread?

[Doc]

It's certainly possible to my mind that some or all components of all of those things could be occurring now. Revelation was mainly of things shortly to come to pass, and the way I read that is that the entire book of Revelation could at least begin to occur within the lifetime of those it was originally written to, particularly because of its highly symbolic and spiritual nature. Perhaps the lake of fire and GWT judgments don't occur until after our physical deaths, but perhaps those are on an individual rather than collective basis, as many of us were taught to view it. I think that to make that approach work, you'd have to read almost the entire book of Revelation as a series of purely spiritual events. Even then, there would still be a few things left that clearly have not been fulfilled to completion yet. For example, we clearly have not seen the last enemy, death, eliminated completely.

[WhiteWings]

For example, we clearly have not seen the last enemy, death, eliminated completely.

Not so sure about that.
If other component of Revelation can take part simultationsly why not the death part?
Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

[legoman]

I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this.  I know I wonder this myself, but I'm pretty sure we are not in the lake of fire now.  We go through trials of fire now - YES.  But the lake of fire now?  Not so much...

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

For example Matt 25:41 has not happened yet, and neither has verse 44 and 45.  I have always viewed these verses fairly literally.  Meaning there will come a day when Jesus will seperate us into 2 groups, and some will ask the questions in verse 44, and Jesus will tell them the answer in verse 45.

Based on this, it seems to me those in the lake of fire will know they are in the lake of fire.  Also the lake of fire age is also referred to as "eonian shame" - so those in it will feel lots of shame for what they have done.

Regarding judgment happening right now - yes believers are judged in this life, and unbelievers later.  "Judgement must begin at the house of God". Ray Smith gets into this in detail here, ie. how we will be judged in this life if we are a follower of Christ:

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

The scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

[WhiteWings]

I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this. 

For me personally it's good to stray from the scripture. It does no harm but only good. (for me)
When you start straying you will find more and more conflicting verses (I mentioned a few in the previous posts)
That way I'm pushed back to the scriptures. But while straying I learned a little.

The scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

I'm also in favour of the classical interpretation. It's the easiest one to understand :winkgrin:

[legoman]

I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this. 

For me personally it's good to stray from the scripture. It does no harm but only good. (for me)
When you start straying you will find more and more conflicting verses (I mentioned a few in the previous posts)
That way I'm pushed back to the scriptures. But while straying I learned a little.

The scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

I'm also in favour of the classical interpretation. It's the easiest one to understand :winkgrin:

Yes straying is interesting if we do not lose focus of the scriptures.

For me, my original point was something like this:

What if after the GWT we are sentenced to the lake of fire.  And we discover that the "sentence of the lake of fire" is really to live our life over again, only this time we will learn what we didn't learn the first time around.  So not everything will go the way it did the first time.  And on top of that while we are in the lake of fire, we won't even realize that we are living our "sentence of the lake of fire".

If we were actually in such a predicament... how would we know it?  ie. we are in the lake of fire right now and don't even know it.

It would make a good plot for a movie at least  :laughing7:

[Doc]

For example, we clearly have not seen the last enemy, death, eliminated completely.

Not so sure about that.
If other component of Revelation can take part simultationsly why not the death part?
Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Well, we still die, don't we?

[Doc]

I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this. 

For me personally it's good to stray from the scripture. It does no harm but only good. (for me)
When you start straying you will find more and more conflicting verses (I mentioned a few in the previous posts)
That way I'm pushed back to the scriptures. But while straying I learned a little.

The scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

I'm also in favour of the classical interpretation. It's the easiest one to understand :winkgrin:

Yes straying is interesting if we do not lose focus of the scriptures.

For me, my original point was something like this:

What if after the GWT we are sentenced to the lake of fire.  And we discover that the "sentence of the lake of fire" is really to live our life over again, only this time we will learn what we didn't learn the first time around.  So not everything will go the way it did the first time.  And on top of that while we are in the lake of fire, we won't even realize that we are living our "sentence of the lake of fire".

If we were actually in such a predicament... how would we know it?  ie. we are in the lake of fire right now and don't even know it.

It would make a good plot for a movie at least  :laughing7:

The problem with that is, it starts getting you into reincarnation. Not to mention that if death and hades are to be thrown into it to be destroyed by it, that it's such a tangibly physical thing as our life here. It also doesn't make sense on the grounds that the Revelation is the first time (indeed the only time) we hear of such a thing as the LOF.

[WhiteWings]

Well, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

Well, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

[Doc]

Well, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

Well, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Yes, but the point of Revelation is that death in any form does not occur at all anymore at a certain point. It obviously still does, so...

[legoman]

The problem with that is, it starts getting you into reincarnation. Not to mention that if death and hades are to be thrown into it to be destroyed by it, that it's such a tangibly physical thing as our life here. It also doesn't make sense on the grounds that the Revelation is the first time (indeed the only time) we hear of such a thing as the LOF.

Yeah I sort of thought of that after I posted.  But that wasn't necessarily so much of the focus.  Truthfully we don't know what the lake of fire experience will be.  This is what we know for sure (feel free to add/correct me):
- many will be thrown into it
- it is composed of God's consuming fire, which may include the chosen elect
- it will be done in the presence of the lamb
- it will be for punishment/correction
- it will be tormenting
- it will cause shame
- it will lead to repentance

Did I forget anything?

All of that is pretty vague with respect to the specific experience one would get.  All of the above could describe some days I've had!   :laughing7:  But that's probably just due to the general similarity of God's judgments, which includes the judgments that do actually happen in this life.

So given the vagueness of the above, I am open to it being something like "another" life - although its much more likely that the particpants will be fully aware of their predicament (unlike reincarnation).  Thus the shame and the torment.

BTW I don't think it will be anything like literal physical fire.  But more something like this:  "Remember that guy you were really mean to at work one day?  Well this is what happened after you were really mean to him..." and then you will realize the full consequence of your actions and sin.  And this will be done for every sin you have ever done... etc. It will be utterly shameful.  Right now that is my best guess of what the lake of fire will really be like.

Peace.

[WhiteWings]

Well, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

Well, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Yes, but the point of Revelation is that death in any form does not occur at all anymore at a certain point. It obviously still does, so...

Agreed.
But when is that certain point?
Th eidea put forward elsewhere in the thread is that several things can take place at the same time.
I continued in that line of thought that daed is abolished for those that are in the afterlife.
I hope you now understand what I mean. I want to add this is not the most obvious explanation for Revelation for me.