"Saved" from what?

[martincisneros]

It'll never be WillieH or Tony Nungesser, or any of the others that oppose the doctrine of afterlife Hell prior to judgment day, [or even after then in some cases with what some have said around here,] that'll give me any problems with it whatsoever.  What's definitely odd for me is that it'll [consistently] wind up being the preaching of ETers, or those who quietly believe it but aren't rambunctious and poisoning about it, that'll give me the biggest problems with any kind of afterlife punishment whatsoever by any definition that you can think of, under any circumstances, etc.  So, that's one of the reasons I've started digging again full force into Mark 4 and reevaluating everything with that, and strenuously endeavoring to only use the vocabulary of Jesus and the Apostles.  I'll try to find a couple of video links before I post this.  They're around 10 minutes each, but you'll see what I mean on how it'll be the mainstream Church that'll often times make any type of afterlife punishment problematic in their preaching.  And I'm aware of many, many videos from countless speakers like this, but am not finding many of those online and I don't have the software for video editing and am not sure about fooling with that and messing my videos up accidentally, but it'll consistently [or with growing consistency] be clips like this from those that are on television.  This just makes any kind of afterlife punishment for me whatsoever virtually impossible 'cause for me it comes back to "either that's true or it's not" when they say it:

First Video Clip

Second Video Clip

Still digging in the Scriptures and in the interpretation of other tongues for further insight, but it may wind up being what I've said a few times afterall, about all of the different fires simply being historical events rather than events where everyone that's ever ever lived is drug into.  Like the Isaiah 30:23-26 twin towers passage not applying to every century that's ever existed and not being anything that ended history as we know it forever (well, not really), but just being a predicted event.  But, Luke 24:47, Acts 17:30-31, Acts 20:21 are still difficult for me to take any different way than what they're simply saying is the Biblical message to the nations.  Similar language further in the New Testament that some would want to argue is only applicable to believers about various issues.  But Colossians 2:6-7 says that as you received Him, that's the same way to receive everything else from Him on an ongoing basis.

[Doc]

It'll never be WillieH or Tony Nungesser, or any of the others that oppose the doctrine of afterlife Hell prior to judgment day, [or even after then in some cases with what some have said around here,] that'll give me any problems with it whatsoever.  What's definitely odd for me is that it'll [consistently] wind up being the preaching of ETers, or those who quietly believe it but aren't rambunctious and poisoning about it, that'll give me the biggest problems with any kind of afterlife punishment whatsoever by any definition that you can think of, under any circumstances, etc.  So, that's one of the reasons I've started digging again full force into Mark 4 and reevaluating everything with that, and strenuously endeavoring to only use the vocabulary of Jesus and the Apostles.  I'll try to find a couple of video links before I post this.  They're around 10 minutes each, but you'll see what I mean on how it'll be the mainstream Church that'll often times make any type of afterlife punishment problematic in their preaching.  And I'm aware of many, many videos from countless speakers like this, but am not finding many of those online and I don't have the software for video editing and am not sure about fooling with that and messing my videos up accidentally, but it'll consistently [or with growing consistency] be clips like this from those that are on television.  This just makes any kind of afterlife punishment for me whatsoever virtually impossible 'cause for me it comes back to "either that's true or it's not" when they say it:

First Video Clip

Second Video Clip

Still digging in the Scriptures and in the interpretation of other tongues for further insight, but it may wind up being what I've said a few times afterall, about all of the different fires simply being historical events rather than events where everyone that's ever ever lived is drug into.  Like the Isaiah 30:23-26 twin towers passage not applying to every century that's ever existed and not being anything that ended history as we know it forever (well, not really), but just being a predicted event.  But, Luke 24:47, Acts 17:30-31, Acts 20:21 are still difficult for me to take any different way than what they're simply saying is the Biblical message to the nations.  Similar language further in the New Testament that some would want to argue is only applicable to believers about various issues.  But Colossians 2:6-7 says that as you received Him, that's the same way to receive everything else from Him on an ongoing basis.

So, just to clarify; Did I read you right in thinking what you're saying (according to your current understanding) that there is no afterlife punishment for anyone until the resurrection and subsequent judgment? That the only afterlife punishment/ correction is the LOF? (I'm reading that last one into what you've said.)

If so, would this mean that we are not conscious after death until the resurrection?

[NinjaWizards777]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

[martincisneros]

Suppose the worst sinner dies and goes to heaven and they're met at the door with either the video being played or a literal time travel event where they're allowed to see what was going on at the Cross, the violent scene fades, and they're returned to Paradise being in front of them and the first one to meet them at the door is Jesus saying "that's why you're here!" and gives 'em a hug.  Think the hardest skeptic removed from the supports of their skepticism in this life and being shown such love as occured at the Cross and meeting the Man, Himself, and seeing all that God's prepared for them in a moment of time as Jesus is coming in for that hug -- is that ax murderer, chain smoker, slaughterhouse worker, prostitute, or anything anyone can think of a believer or an unbeliever? 

Is there shame and a silencing of all that they'd ever said against Him, His Word, His people, His work in the earth?  Is there that moment of UNBELIEVABLE CONDEMNATION of all of their ungodliness in their hearts??  Is there the answering of all of the prayers of their mother in that moment, that might have seemed virtually pointless on the earth?  In that kind of moment, is there the answering of all of the prayers of all of the saints whether Catholic, Protestant, and whomever else for all men everywhere?  Is there anything in that that would take away from St. Paul's comment about godliness genuinely being profitable for this life and that which is to come?  Is there genuinely the frustration of any preacher in heaven that worked themselves to their knees all of their lives, until they had no more tears and in some cases bled and died for preaching Jesus as Lord of all?  Or is there great relief on the part of the preachers there that God's as good as they ever said and more?? 

Is there a single child left not knowing why God's beating their parents, grandparents, etc.?  Is there a single parent there wondering how many more eons it'll take for God to get through to their kids and in great apprehension about how thick their kids are and blaming themselves that if they'd only been more loving, more nurturing, more attentive then they might not have been the block heads that it's taking God 50,000 years to get through to?  Or is God going to miss this opportunity to start wiping away the tears, the pain, the frustration, the exhaustion, and heart sickness?  What does Romans 8 say about "if He didn't withhold His Son...??" and also about God having fulfilled the requirements of the law in the condemnation of the flesh of Jesus Christ?  Condemnation is just sickness, disease, and early painful death according to the Gospel of John chapter 3 and 1Corinthians 11. 

Many of us at these boards have been appauled by some of the quotes from Tertullian, Aquinas, Luther, and others about the saints being gratified in the damnation of the wicked, but how would any kind of punishment extended into the afterlife and/or ages to come not somehow reflect upon Christ's chosen Senators of the Kingdom?  Haven't the saints from the beginning prayed that mankind wouldn't be lead in temptation, but would be delivered from evil?  Aren't there Scriptures in the Old Testament, particularly in the KJV, that refer to God having to punish as evil, such as Him repenting of the evil He was about to bring upon them?  Will the Lord's prayer -- and I mean the real Lord's prayer in John 17 -- ever be answered of all of the world believing when they see the glory given to the Church? 

Doesn't say anything about them believing when they see the horrors heading their way.  If the Mosaic law, which was a dispensation of condemnation, said you weren't to trip a blind person, then are we to understand that the New Testament is saying to broil them alive?  Sometimes the limited duration future punishment sounds a little worse than the ET stuff 'cause we're saying that instead of them being in the oven, God's got a microwave!!  No wonder there's unquenchable thirst!!!!  Just a sampling of some thoughts I've been having for a few months.  Wouldn't mean the Lake of Fire couldn't be pretty close to normal everyday life when suddenly the planet virtually explodes or at least becomes very volcanic in preparation for the New. 

But 2Peter 3 puts such a contrast between Noah's Flood and the flames of the Lake of Fire, to where the Lake of Fire could just be synonymous with the resurrection and it taking much more of God's Heat and a bigger section of the Hem of Jesus' garment to raise the bodies of those that have been the wickedest.  Who then would be the unbelievers of the New Earth?  Future generations of unbelievers if the Revelation 20 resurrection weren't a resurrection to immortality, and then this thing of extra terrestrial life that a lot of folks have kicked around occasionally, perhaps including fallen angels.

[Doc]

Good/ interesting answer.

[70sevens]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

I do think otherwise.
If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.
He believed another Jesus, that's why sin still remains in him.
If he claims that he is in the process of salvation to be complete,
I bet he will say so still in front of his death.
Thus, his whole life is being deceived without being saved.
 
It is good to have questions, as they will lead us to true Jesus.
But so many times our direction to Jesus is hampered
because we accept non-truth answers.
Maybe we may have to spend more time there.

God bless.

[Zeek]

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Pierac]

The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

Very insightful question!

You need to think more in terms of saved too, instead of saved from!

Luke 4:43  but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."

Here lies your answer! The Kingdom of God! Exactly what did Jesus preach?  OK, let's slow down and focus on the scriptures.

Christian documents demonstrate, beyond any argument, that Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God not only this, he did not initially say anything about his own death and resurrection (Luke 18:31-34).  This must prove conclusively that the message about the Kingdom contains information other than the death and resurrection of the Savior.

Now don't freak out, just follow the path of Jesus' revelation to us!

Jesus proclaimed the Gospel of the Kingdom in the company of the 12 Apostles: "Now after this he made his way through towns and villages preaching and proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom of God. With him were the twelve" (Luke 8:1). Later, "he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the Kingdom of God and to heal" (Luke 9:1-2).

At this stage the disciples had no knowledge of the death and resurrection of Jesus.  This is proved by their subsequent reaction to Jesus's announcement of his impending arrests and crucifixion: Luk 18:31  Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said. 

Even immediately after the resurrection the disciples still did not understand it. And yet they had been preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom in the company of Jesus. "They did not yet
understand the scriptures that he must rise from the dead" (John 20:9). This was after the death and resurrection of Jesus had occurred.

Now if, as it is commonly said, the Gospel consist of information about the death and resurrection of Jesus only, how is it that both Jesus and the twelve proclaimed the Gospel without reference to the Savior's death and resurrection? The answer is clear.  The Gospel of the kingdom was announced before Jesus died (Mark 1:14, 15; Matt. 4:23; 9:35; Luke 4:43; Luke 8:1,etc.) and, as the book of Acts informs us, after the resurrection (Acts 1:3; 1:6; 8:12; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23, 31). Act 1:3  To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

In Acts, however, we find added to the Gospel about the Kingdom, the new facts about the death and resurrection of Jesus, which had now become history. The result is a Gospel message about the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ's (Acts 8:12; 28:23, 31). That Kingdom message remains as the primary component of the Gospel. Jesus' death and resurrection are additional, indispensable subjects for belief.

Acts 1:5-7 also provides a crystal clear testimony against the idea that the Kingdom of God was initiated when Jesus went to sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven.  In Acts 1:5 after Jesus had given a six-week seminar on his favorite subject, the Kingdom (Acts 1:3) the disciples, who had already been preaching the gospel of the Kingdom under Jesus supervision, asked the obvious question.  Hearing that the spirit was to be poured out from heaven, they supposed not unreasonably that the Kingdom of God was going to appear at the same time. They defined the Kingdom has Jesus had taught them. They thought of it as involving the restored tribes of Israel in the land.  "Lord will you yet at this time," they asked, "that you are going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

Jesus did not in any way rebuked them for their good question. He simply inform them that the time for the coming of the kingdom would not be known.  The restoration of the Kingdom to Israel is taken for granted.  The time which pass to elapse before the Kingdom comes cannot be known. Note, however, this is central point which settles any question about the Kingdom in relation to the coming of the spirit.  The spirit was to come "in a few days time."  But that Kingdom was to arrive at a time of unknown. This proves obviously that the coming of the spirit at Pentecost is not the same event as the coming of the Kingdom.  :2c:

Pierac

[Cardinal]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[martincisneros]

If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.

Actually, a lot of it is because so few Christians have learned to walk by faith.  If I bring up using the same principles of the Word regarding healing and prosperity on resisting temptation, addictive behaviour, addictive mindsets, and anything else that would be a pressure to the body, mind, and emotions, most of the people around here, and many, many Christians I'd talk to elsewhere, would draw a total blank on what I was even talking about from the Scriptures.  But the same as you can't be moved by what you see or by what you feel on any other ground you've taken with the Scriptures and are being lead by the Holy Spirit through the confession of the Word into victory with Christ Jesus, your High Priest, it's the exact same thing with being transfigured by the renewing of your mind in way too many passages in St. Paul to where we either conclude he as equally knew what he was talking about regarding that as when he'd talk about UR, or, we have to conclude that not much of the Bible can be trusted after all, which leads to the inevitable thing of it having never really happened, which is where many unbelievers are at.  The word there in Romans 12 for transformed in many of the translations is the word for transfiguration.

[Molly]

If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.

Actually, a lot of it is because so few Christians have learned to walk by faith.  If I bring up using the same principles of the Word regarding healing and prosperity on resisting temptation, addictive behaviour, addictive mindsets, and anything else that would be a pressure to the body, mind, and emotions, most of the people around here, and many, many Christians I'd talk to elsewhere, would draw a total blank on what I was even talking about from the Scriptures.  But the same as you can't be moved by what you see or by what you feel on any other ground you've taken with the Scriptures and are being lead by the Holy Spirit through the confession of the Word into victory with Christ Jesus, your High Priest, it's the exact same thing with being transfigured by the renewing of your mind in way too many passages in St. Paul to where we either conclude he as equally knew what he was talking about regarding that as when he'd talk about UR, or, we have to conclude that not much of the Bible can be trusted after all, which leads to the inevitable thing of it having never really happened, which is where many unbelievers are at.  The word there in Romans 12 for transformed in many of the translations is the word for transfiguration.

wow! :mshock:


2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

--Rom 12


"be ye transformed"

G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure,
transform.



Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

"was transfigured"
G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep, we're "metamorphooed" by the washing of the Spirit revealed Word..... :thumbsup:

[martincisneros]

One of my favorite sharing of the Gospel opportunities is with new agers that'll comment on my having one of the brightest auras they've ever seen.  I've either had it described as intense white or intense white with a pinch of purple, and when I looked up the purple, it's supposedly (according to some, although there's a plethora of opinions on these colors, indicating that nobody really knows what they're talking about) sexual energy.  I never hear about anything described about me but a white aura from guys, among the people that'll be into looking at those kinds of things, but it'll wind up being women, and often attractive ones, that'll comment on the other color being really faintly there and I'll kinda laugh it off to myself if I was honestly busted having a passing thought or if not a thought, then an initial split, fraction of a second eye bug out.  And I'm not saying that that's what that color means. 

Every website says something different, including illnesses that I'm unquestionably redeemed from by the Cross.   Some sources will claim absolute purity about the really bright white aura, while others will say someone's about to die.  That could be an interesting thought with what I posted earlier on this thread about an encounter with Christ.  For those that don't have it right with Him, is a whitening aura proof that they're inching towards Him slapping the new age crap out of their lives, overpowering them with His love, and giving them a future and a hope?  And for those that have it right with Him, is that an indication that they're crucified with Christ, nevertheless the live, yet not them but Christ lives in them?  But, I have been expecting for years and years with all of the expectation my expecter can muster, based on Romans 12, that He'd be seen through me. 

I know a story of one woman that had something wrong with her and she was told by the Lord to go to the mall and someone would be there to pray for her.  She didn't know who, and when she got to the mall the Lord wasn't any more helpful on who than when she was still home.  But she noticed this shaft of light above the people that was leading straight up, yet it was moving and even wandering in and out of stores.  So, she decided to follow it until she discovered it was coming out of one person.  So, she approached them and asked for prayer.  They agreed to pray for her, but wondered why she'd asked them to pray for her.  So, she told them what I just told you about having been told by the Lord to go to the mall and someone would be there to pray for her.  And the person the light was coming from was Jerry Savelle, the leader of an international ministry based in Fort Worth, Texas, and when that light would be wandering in and out of stores, it was 'cause he was following his wife, Carolyn, all over the place.

[reFORMer]

The short version...(Knowing that God is no repector of persons, that Jesus looked up into the heavens, that there were things to be seen in the heavenlies, in other dimensions in which we exist) I made motions of applying "eye salve" on my eyes as I walked back and forth in my room, claiming the Scripture that spoke of it, admitting I was blind.  If I could get this kind of salve at the apothecary I might try, though I didn't have money; but, I was sure He meant another kind of seeing.  He said none could "see" the Kingdom of God except they were born again.  He didn't say "understand," though there is an eye of understanding.  I asked to see.  In a couple of days he began to open my eyes. 

Remember that all of the colors are God's.  Red (or red-purple, nearest infra-red) is the lowest on the spectrum of visible light.  Red is the longest wavelength visible in the electromagnetic spectrum.  Sin stains our spirits red, literally.  Our mouths are like smudgy, like burned and filthy, covered with messy lipstick.  But it isn't that almost everything we say is red-stained, though it is, it is that it proceeds from the heart to defile us.  The lipstick emerges out of the blossoming red flower in the midst of our heart to stain our lips.  Almost everything everybody says, except speaking in tongues, is defiled.  How refreshing to see cleaness of teeth, white purity of mouth and lips, emerging out into manifest presence as clean spirit.  Almost everything proceeding from people's mouths is spirit.

"...If your sins become like scarlet, as snow shall they be white; It they are red as crimson, as wool shall they become." (Isaiah 1:18, CLV)  Laban means white, milk white, milky...the meaning of colors is in Scripture.  The highest is blue-purple.  Ruling comes from the highest.  Purple is royal.  Blue is heavenly...

[martincisneros]

Purple is definitely royal, both in the sacred and in the corrupt royalty.  The plethora of meanings attached to colors in our culture is no different, to me, than the confusion of languages at Babel.  I've been very interested at different seasons of my life in the meanings of colors to see if there was any particular meaning associated with seeing a color in a synesthetic way coming from words that aren't specifically the names of the colors.  This universe is sooo skillfully made that every color probably has a meaning in the DNA of the universe when we find it naturally occuring, whether outside, in ourselves, in the animal kingdom, and in the sky at night or through a telescope. 

Different gases are different colors, and there's some contamination of the colors that we'll see even with the best telescopes because of dust particles and other issues from the cosmos coming from broken up rocks or ice crystals reflecting and refracting light in all kinds of ways.  The last time someone saw the color purple, that I'm aware of, in my aura, was in 2004, I believe.  Every other time, before and since, if anybody's said anything, it's wound up being nothing but the brightest white they've described.  And as white can be the symbol of life and death in what I shared above, I'm wondering if purple in the same kind of context with seemingly radiating from us or an animal in nature can be royalty coming out or being diluted by anything that we can't see since we don't see all colors, or most people don't. 

I think that some people, particularly synesthetics might 'cause of difficulties later identifying certain colors they've seen on color charts to write it down for the benefit of others regarding what they heard with which word or which sound or movement.  Some synesthetics see just like Daredevil in the movie that came out a few years ago, just as some blind people do.  Eyesight can cross over into sonar, just as hearing can as some blind people have discovered with being able to imitate the noise of a dolphin and immediately know where things are at around them and where they're going.  A purple light around someone could perhaps be both royalty and ambition, or contamination of colors since it's not a primary color. 

That's why I've always been very glad that when it's been noticed it was subtle and not overpowering in me, at least until I knew specifically what it was.  If someone reported to me this month, with what's been going on in me from the Holy Spirit, that there was quite a bit of purple, then I'd know for certain that it was the dominion and rulership of God flowing full force in me 'cause Colossians 2:5 has been a particularly strong manifestation of the Lord in my life this month.  Because my faith is far enough ahead of the game to not get weighed down by any naysayers, if they show up on this point, I've been believing God for quite a while for a G650, sowing my seed, believing what God's quickened to me from the Word and His Spirit about it, and continuing to patiently, willingly, and joyfully do the will of God as each new door opens. 

A G650 is a type of jet.  In order to be able to fulfill the rest of my calling.  But the Holy Spirit's been so strong on my recently, that I'm genuinely wondering if I'm going to need a plane to get everywhere I need to get to to share the Word, if what's on me keeps progressing and developing and intensifying as it's been doing.  I went somewhere briefly at the start of this month, and had the strongest sense that if I'd simply taken the time to have "prayed through" as it's called in Pentecostal circles that a plane ticket might have been optional.  Pray that God gives me the jet if my suddenly walking in the room out of nowhere would keep you from being able to sleep for the rest of your life wondering what you saw!  John 14:12 belongs to absolutely all of us, and it's the joy that was set before Jesus in Hebrews 12. 

The whole book of Hebrews is about setting aside all that encumbers and running with patience the race set before you until the Christ within you has literally become the master of all things in this world with the Holy Scriptures as your guide and wisdom together with the Holy Spirit that they point you to that Jesus said was Someone just like Himself.  Careful with taking the "here we have no continuing city" out of the context of the rest of the book that says to cast out a few devils and raise a little Hell until all that can be shaken has been shaken and you've become skillful in the Word of righteousness and the obtainer of the inheritance of Abraham, which is what you're running for; they never obtained it so that they wouldn't be made perfect without us, but Jesus is seated for the joy set before Him to finish the faith He's authored in you that's the substance of things you're passionate for from His Word, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Something really big is about to happen with the Body of Christ or big segments of it.  The out of body stuff, seeing angels, and other things have been going on in my life since about '91 and with real intensity over the last 3 years.  Not the seeing angels part, but I have a couple of times in this time period.  God is calling all of us to accept the fact that the "all truth" that He promised is contained in the Gospel, and He loves all of us enough to give us all of the power that's in it, but we have to totally sell out to it with all of our hearts, minds, and bodies.  Everything has to be His, not sorta, not ultimately, or whatever. The only way I've ever found to fully surrender is by His Words becoming my Words as it says in Isaiah 55, Isaiah 58, Proverbs 4, John 8, Colossians 3 and in countless other places.  Joshua 1:8 is startlingly pregnant about that if you'll apply it's principles to the New Covenant since Colossians 3, 1John 2, and other places in the New Testament essentially say the same thing, but not necessarily as clearly as Joshua 1:8, or not as clearly for everyone as Joshua 1:8.

[martincisneros]

God's about to do something sooo big in all of us that have believed the Gospel, that I teeter on using the dispensational, premillenialist's "R" word about it, but I'm not one and am leery of using a word from my past that I can't use without snickering that I ever misconstrued parts of the Gospel to say that.  I'll say what the "R" word is that I'm referring to, lest I just lost a couple of the younger ones among us.  What I'm seeing about to happen with those that really believe the Gospel [and are completely sold out to it] teeters on the "rapture" scenario, though I'm not buying into the "left behind" part in what I see in Scripture.  I believe the whole of the Scriptures, but my interpretation of "end-times" has been dramatically changing in the last few years, first with seeing UR and then transitioning from premillenialism to postmillenialism.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen reFormer and Martin.......three things I wanted to share along that line. I once had a dream/vision and everything on the earth had a red glow. There was nothing that didn't glow red.

In another, when I was in OK, I saw everything as black forms; trees, ect. that were outlined in red, like they had been drawn on nothing but black space. The scriptures He tied in then were wisdom more valuable than rubies (red) and He FRAMED the world with wisdom. I was given to know I had seen the beginning, ie. the frame.

One day I was reading the Word and He told me to picture in my mind an eclipse. I did and I "saw" with the Spirit the moon go behind or below the earth in it's elliptical orbit. Just as it got to the lowest bend in the orbit and was shadowed by the earth in darkness, He spoke, "Yea, though I walk thru the valley of the SHADOW OF DEATH, I will fear no darkness for the Lord is with me."

He gave me to understand that the moon is as the redeemed from the earth (silver is redemption; it appears silver, has no glory of it's own), and the earth, our fleshly selves, fallen nature.

I was so excited, and wanted to make sure I was seeing things from God, I went to the library and got a book on astronomy to make sure what I was seeing was correct. Not only was it correct, but I read something that made me shout for joy. It said that when this eclipse happens, that the color RED (color of the son; His blood) is the only one that refracts and actually bends around the earth to hit the darkened moon. The rest of the colors are absorbed into the earth.

Truly, though we walk thru the valley (lowest part of orbit) of death (to be carnally/fleshly minded is death), I will fear no evil (darkness of flesh overshadowing spirit), for the Lord is with me. Let all creation reveal His glory and His works (and it does), Amen. Blessings...

[CHB]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

Hi Ninja,

When I say "we are saved from this flesh" what I mean is, we are going to be saved from these fleshly bodies to become immortal.  Jesus died so that we could live like he is living now. Every man in his own order though.

CHB

[CHB]

Later on, after the mystery was revealed, Paul continued to "warn" and preach obedience, and continued "walking" in faith; so as to not lose one's reward.    

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 2:7  Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Col 3:20  Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Col 3:21  Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Col 3:22  Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Col 3:23  And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Col 3:24  Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Col 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Col 1:9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Zeek,

None of the above were required for salvation, these are fruits of the Spirit. At first the apostles taught in order to have salvation, one had to repent, be baptized, keep the Lord's Supper. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel. Paul came to see that this wasn't necessary.

CHB

[martincisneros]

None of the above were required for salvation, these are fruits of the Spirit. At first the apostles taught in order to have salvation, one had to repent, be baptized, keep the Lord's Supper. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel. Paul came to see that this wasn't necessary.

I was going to leave it alone 'cause I'm still partially working through the repentance part, and learning to see the difference between New Testament and Old Testament repentance, where Old Testament repentance had a lot of the spirit of sorrow on it, yet Paul validates much of that as produced by the Holy Spirit in 2Corinthians 7.  Acts 17 and Acts 20 Paul uses the word "repent" in his message to the nations.  In Luke 24:47 Jesus said that it should be preached to the Nations.  Let's see, 1Corinthians 11 was written towards the middle of his ministry with regards to the Lord's supper to the nations.  And that chapter fits beautifully with Hebrews 7 where in 1Corinthians 11 you proclaim His death until He comes, but in Hebrews 7 there's a way of proclaiming His life until He comes. 

And on the baptism subject, in 1Corinthians 1, St. Paul doesn't fault baptism of Gentiles but says that he wasn't sent to baptize.  But he didn't imply that others weren't and in fact goes on to describe the various offices, briefly, in 1Corinthians 12 that Christ has set in the Body until He returns that produce the Ephesians 4 effect of bringing us to the unity of the faith and unity in our knowledge of the Son of God, so that as it says in 1John 2 and 3 with regards to our transition to the New Earth after we've become fathers in the Kingdom that we have no need for anyone to teach us, because we're seeing the fullness of the Hebrews 8 promise harvested of all knowing Him from the least to the greatest. 

The context of 1Corinthians 12 of "until the Lord returns" is established for us in 1Corinthians 11, and the flow towards the 15th chapter is towards the building of the anointings and the building of all of us through the anointings until we can SEE all things under the feet of Christ in 1Corinthians 15.  And from the perspective of those anointings at work within us based upon the Scriptures and the finished work of the Cross, Paul could close 1Corinthians 15 by audaciously saying that our work in the Lord, or contextually in His anointing (i.e. the Holy Spirit and His operations) is not in vain.  And then in 2Corinthians 3, as everybody knows, He calls the Spirit the Lord.  Repentance in the New Testament is a change of mind in the Greek, so when you embrace the Gospel, you are in fact repenting. 

2Corinthians 7:1 (2Timothy 2 is a good supporting text on this since it was written towards the end of Paul's ministry) says that since we have these promises we should cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God, and then describes himself as being sinless because of the work of the Cross in his life, just as any genuine New Testament believer would, upholding the innocence that's theirs through much holier Blood than Job would insist upon his innocence in the book of Job based upon.  If the Son has made you free, then you are free indeed!

8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, [without the love of God,] they shall fail; whether there be tongues, [without the love of God,] they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, [without the love of God] it shall vanish away.
9For [without the love of God] we know in part, and [without the love of God] we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, [or when love has been perfected] then that which is in part shall be done away. (Ephesians 3 says nothing about knowing in part.  It says comprehending and knowing the length, breadth, height, and depth of the love of God and being filled with all of the fullness of the anointing.  If there's a fullness of God to be filled with in Ephesians 3:19, then it's quite clear you could have a quarter, half, or three quarters.)
11When I was a child, [without the love of God] I spake as a child, [without the love of God] I understood as a child, [without the love of God] I thought as a child: but when I became a man, [or when love was perfected by keeping His Word] I put away childish things.
12For now [without the love of God] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [when love if perfected] face to face: [without the love of God] now I know in part; but then [when love is perfected in me by the Word] shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (1Corinthians 13:8-13; 14:1)

In other words, 1Corinthians 13 wasn't the contradiction to the previous and following chapter that the religiously strangled have always tried to make it out to be, but followed right in line with Ephesians chapters 3 and 4, 1John 2, Isaiah 9, 11, 40, 58, 61, and other chapters in the Old and New Testaments that speak of the ministry of the Body and of it's Head.  It was saying that without the love of God at work, then repentance, baptism, the Lord's table, and everything else is going to be pointless or worse with becoming the sorrow of the world, the wetting of the flesh without the answer of a pure conscience, and eating and drinking damnation to ourselves (i.e. to our physical bodies, according to 1Corinthians 11) not rightly discerning the Body. 

One of the biggest things the Lord only recently got through to me with from 1Corinthians 11 is to not partake when I'm physically hungry.  It's a celebration of fullness and not of needy flesh, so that we should avoid having the ravenous attitude with it that Israel had with the quail in the Old Testament.  And I've broken fasts with it before.  Not the thing to do.  Paul says to go ahead and eat if you're hungry and then come and partake with your spirit rather than your body so that it'll be something that'll strengthen your spirit and ultimately your body since a strong spirit is the life of the flesh, or sustains a man in his infirmity depending on the translation you want to refer to, as well as which passage.

[onlytruth]

hi martin and cardinal...it seems like the lite is getting brighter and there is definetly a sense of excitement.the curious thing when reading martins response about the plane is...i have been saying to my wife everytime a see a lear jet "i sure like that,be nice to have one" ...but a lot more lately it is intensifying(i like flying)but i think it also means being called to a higher calling
just my sense
blessings :icon_king:

[legoman]

Check out this video.

Dennis Caldwell expands on what we are saved from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpngXIZ1d9w&feature=channel_page

Legoman

[CHB]

I was going to leave it alone 'cause I'm still partially working through the repentance part, and learning to see the difference between New Testament and Old Testament repentance, where Old Testament repentance had a lot of the spirit of sorrow on it, yet Paul validates much of that as produced by the Holy Spirit in 2Corinthians 7.  Acts 17 and Acts 20 Paul uses the word "repent" in his message to the nations.  In Luke 24:47 Jesus said that it should be preached to the Nations.  Let's see, 1Corinthians 11 was written towards the middle of his ministry with regards to the Lord's supper to the nations.  And that chapter fits beautifully with Hebrews 7 where in 1Corinthians 11 you proclaim His death until He comes, but in Hebrews 7 there's a way of proclaiming His life until He comes. 

And on the baptism subject, in 1Corinthians 1, St. Paul doesn't fault baptism of Gentiles but says that he wasn't sent to baptize.  But he didn't imply that others weren't and in fact goes on to describe the various offices, briefly, in 1Corinthians 12 that Christ has set in the Body until He returns that produce the Ephesians 4 effect of bringing us to the unity of the faith and unity in our knowledge of the Son of God, so that as it says in 1John 2 and 3 with regards to our transition to the New Earth after we've become fathers in the Kingdom that we have no need for anyone to teach us, because we're seeing the fullness of the Hebrews 8 promise harvested of all knowing Him from the least to the greatest. 

The context of 1Corinthians 12 of "until the Lord returns" is established for us in 1Corinthians 11, and the flow towards the 15th chapter is towards the building of the anointings and the building of all of us through the anointings until we can SEE all things under the feet of Christ in 1Corinthians 15.  And from the perspective of those anointings at work within us based upon the Scriptures and the finished work of the Cross, Paul could close 1Corinthians 15 by audaciously saying that our work in the Lord, or contextually in His anointing (i.e. the Holy Spirit and His operations) is not in vain.  And then in 2Corinthians 3, as everybody knows, He calls the Spirit the Lord.  Repentance in the New Testament is a change of mind in the Greek, so when you embrace the Gospel, you are in fact repenting. 

2Corinthians 7:1 (2Timothy 2 is a good supporting text on this since it was written towards the end of Paul's ministry) says that since we have these promises we should cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God, and then describes himself as being sinless because of the work of the Cross in his life, just as any genuine New Testament believer would, upholding the innocence that's theirs through much holier Blood than Job would insist upon his innocence in the book of Job based upon.  If the Son has made you free, then you are free indeed!

8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, [without the love of God,] they shall fail; whether there be tongues, [without the love of God,] they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, [without the love of God] it shall vanish away.
9For [without the love of God] we know in part, and [without the love of God] we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, [or when love has been perfected] then that which is in part shall be done away. (Ephesians 3 says nothing about knowing in part.  It says comprehending and knowing the length, breadth, height, and depth of the love of God and being filled with all of the fullness of the anointing.  If there's a fullness of God to be filled with in Ephesians 3:19, then it's quite clear you could have a quarter, half, or three quarters.)
11When I was a child, [without the love of God] I spake as a child, [without the love of God] I understood as a child, [without the love of God] I thought as a child: but when I became a man, [or when love was perfected by keeping His Word] I put away childish things.
12For now [without the love of God] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [when love if perfected] face to face: [without the love of God] now I know in part; but then [when love is perfected in me by the Word] shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (1Corinthians 13:8-13; 14:1)

In other words, 1Corinthians 13 wasn't the contradiction to the previous and following chapter that the religiously strangled have always tried to make it out to be, but followed right in line with Ephesians chapters 3 and 4, 1John 2, Isaiah 9, 11, 40, 58, 61, and other chapters in the Old and New Testaments that speak of the ministry of the Body and of it's Head.  It was saying that without the love of God at work, then repentance, baptism, the Lord's table, and everything else is going to be pointless or worse with becoming the sorrow of the world, the wetting of the flesh without the answer of a pure conscience, and eating and drinking damnation to ourselves (i.e. to our physical bodies, according to 1Corinthians 11) not rightly discerning the Body. 

One of the biggest things the Lord only recently got through to me with from 1Corinthians 11 is to not partake when I'm physically hungry.  It's a celebration of fullness and not of needy flesh, so that we should avoid having the ravenous attitude with it that Israel had with the quail in the Old Testament.  And I've broken fasts with it before.  Not the thing to do.  Paul says to go ahead and eat if you're hungry and then come and partake with your spirit rather than your body so that it'll be something that'll strengthen your spirit and ultimately your body since a strong spirit is the life of the flesh, or sustains a man in his infirmity depending on the translation you want to refer to, as well as which passage.

The Real New Testament Order

What is the proper New Testament order?
 
Two of the greatest textual critics of the New Testament were Westcott and Hort who were the British scholars responsible for giving the world the Revised Version of 1881. In their Greek text of their New Testament they presented the order as evidenced by the best manuscripts according to them. The same order was followed by Professor Gregory of Germany (another great textual scholar of this century):

"The order in which we place the books of the New Testament is not a matter of indifference. Every Christian should be familiar with these books, and should know precisely where to find each book. Every New Testament should have the books in precisely the same order, the order of the Greek Church, which in this case is of right the guardian of this ancient literature. The proper order is, I think: First, the Four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Second, the Book of Acts. Third, the Catholic Epistles: James, First and Second Peter, First, Second and Third John, and Jude. Fourth, the Epistles of Paul: Romans, First and Second Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, First and Second Thessalonians, Hebrews, First and Second Timothy, Titus, Philemon. And fifth, the Book of Revelation.... The Greek order is that which places the Epistle to the Hebrews between Thessalonians and Timothy, and that is the order to which we should hold. The Latin order [Jerome] places Hebrews after Philemon. But we must keep to the old order or we shall have the New Testament turned upside down in connection with every fancied discovery as to authorship and date of books" (Rene Gregory, Canon and Text of the New Testament, pp.467-469, italic and brackets mine).

There can be no doubt that this scholarly belief of Professor Gregory was absolutely correct (which was also sustained by Westcott and Hort). The world needs to return to this original manuscript order of the 27 New Testament books. Ernest L Martin

CHB

[martincisneros]

the curious thing when reading martins response about the plane is...i have been saying to my wife everytime a see a lear jet "i sure like that,be nice to have one" ...but a lot more lately it is intensifying(i like flying)but i think it also means being called to a higher calling

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. (Isaiah 58:14)

[CHB]

I don't agree with every single word Martin says here but most of it I do agree with.


The Mystery And The New Covenant

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.htm

CHB