I would like to post a brief paper I have written concerning what Jesus was speaking of regarding the narrow gate and difficult way. Find it as an attatchment with this post. Thank you.
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I'm still reading the essay, but one thing struck me, and I wanted to reply right away.
You quoted Luke: Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
I think this ties in with what Jesus said elsewhere (don't remember chapter/verse) that the Pharisees neither entered the kingdom themselves, nor did they allow those were were entering in to enter.
It connects with the Matthew verse "and few will even discover it", along with the statistic that says ony .22% of the worlds' population claim to be practicing, religious Jews.
Are you saying that it is to their advantage that they are Jews?
I am saying that Judeism was the 'strait gate, narrow way, difficult path' of which Jesus was speaking.
OK, I can understand that, thanks.
I'll look at the paper, but in context then, not being a practicing Jew would mean destruction...you probably address that in the paper. I'll see what you have to say there. :)
I'm unable to open it, says Windows needs the know the program, etc..
No. Jesus was a jewish rabbi speaking to jews. The way of the Law was the narrow way. Few would even make discovery of it, and "many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." That is in contrast to"My yoke is easy and my burden is light." "Whoever wants to may come"
I had to go with a newer vesion of Microsoft Office. You can download a 'compatability program' for free which should allow you to keep using your current version and also open newer documents.
No what? Oh, I think you must have written your response when my post was a question, but I had edited it. As I'm sure you already know, the rest of the same sentence is about the broad way to destruction - which is where my comparison comes from. You said "Judaism" was the narrow way, so then in that context, not being a practicing Jew would be destruction (it seems to me).
I understand Jesus was primarily speaking to the Jews (in most if not all things during His earthly ministry, IMO) which is what I was going to point out prior to your post. Since I can't open the article I looked a little elsewhere, and I see where some Jewish groups claim the Torah is the narrow (correct) way. So now with you saying the way of the Law is the narrow way (which would indeed be a large part of being a practicing Jew), then within that context, not practicing the Law would lead to destruction. I guess in essence, saying "Judaism" and "keeping the Law" would be the same/very similar, but somehow saying practicing the Law hits home more TO ME. Maybe that's just my understanding. All that said, yes, Jesus said His yoke is easy, burden light, whoever wants may come, etc. So that seems reasonable as you say, that it's a contrast.
Two related points though, again, without being able to see the paper. He also said He is THE Way, so that would need to be distinctly shown as separate from the "narrow path" in the verse in question (and maybe it can be done, I just hadn't thought of it before). Also, again, Him contrasting the narrow path and the wide to destruction, to me indicates one is the exact opposite of the other, and I'm not sure how that would fit. Because I don't think He would be saying "the wide road to destruction is not practicing Judaism but rather it's believing in Me"; so if not that, how would not practicing Judaism lead to destruction? I'll have to think about that and how it might fit together, including the accurate contrast.
OK, I'll see if I can open it some other way, thanks. You may/probably address the issues that occur to me with this premise already in your paper.
Re: practicing the Law..as we know, can't save anyone - it shows sin, not redeems from it. Well, it's an interesting thought, and you may be right..I'd personally just need some things reconciled in their context, which again, maybe you address..I won't comment any further until I can see your paper to see what you really say, unless there are other specifics mentioned out here on the boards. :)
Hmm, still getting the Windows can't open message..I'm usually able to open about anything. My computer's not that old, although I think I am running IE7..I'll keep working on it, and we can also see if others are having any issues opening it or not. Sounds like Laz got it OK. Thanks, I'll let you know.
Here it is as a .txt
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OK, I was able to read it on the other thread for some reason. I like it, and it does seem to fit. I'm having some dissonance though, probably for 2 reasons. One, as I said, I'd never thought exactly of the narrow way being Judaism/Law keeping, and two, I'd need to either reconcile or rightly divide/cut the various references He made between the narrow way and all the other things He said about Himself to the Jews. You noted several of them, I just need to ponder them a bit and look a little more. But besides the contrast within that one particular sentence issue I'd mentioned before (that if narrow way is Judaism, what is the broad way to destruction? Surely not believing in Him, so what was He talking about..), I think it makes a lot of sense. Maybe there's a good explanation to that that will reconcile it for me, just not there yet, not seeing it yet.
It sounds like you and I may at least be on the same wavelength though with context and Jesus' earthly ministry. I probably swim upstream with many believers, including here, because I personally think we need to be VERY careful about mish-mashing scriptures together to try to make one certain point, when they may actually have different primary audiences and points within the scriptures themselves (i.e., for example, "endure to the end". What end? The end of that age of Law, the final That Day at the end of this age, or what? I tend to think it's the former). But anyway, that's kind of off topic :punish:
Quote from: jabcat on September 16, 2013, 07:39:39 AM
if narrow way is Judaism, what is the broad way to destruction? Surely not believing in Him, so what was He talking about..), I think it makes a lot of sense. Maybe there's a good explanation to that that will reconcile it for me, just not there yet, not seeing it yet.
Thinking out loud here...perhaps that IN THAT AGE not keeping the Law/truly practicing the way of Judaism would keep one out of favor with God, and the consequences of that suffered? As noted, this was prior to the cross, our current "age of grace" to the nations and any believing Jews), when strict observance of The Law, sacrifice, etc. was required..? Hmmm, need to process some more...
I was speaking with someone this weekend on the topic of this paper and I saw him physically going through some the dissonance you speak of. I tend to think outside the box and can look into something I have never been taught, but this friend would say, "I see what you are say... NO, It can't mean that!" He actually could NOT Allow himself to think of the narrow way, or stait gate being anything else but Jesus. Now I can hardly think of this in any way other than I say in the paper.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 16, 2013, 07:53:25 AM
"I see what you are say... NO, It can't mean that!" He actually could NOT Allow himself to think of..
Well if we said that, we probably wouldn't be here. :laughing7:
I believe dissonance is OK and normal, if it's accepted along with the motivation to be open and keep searching. :thumbsup:
jabcat: You seem to be digging more technically into this than I intended. Or maybe I don't understand your questions. My purpose was to point out that The narrow door, strait gate, difficult way,etc. was not what we have been taught. Jesus is not the narrow, hard...If I have missed something and it turns out that it wasn't Judaism He was speaking of the main thing is it wasn't Himself.
Sorry, I'm one that needs everything to reconcile, i.e., not have other scriptures that dispute what I believe - if so, then I need to change my belief. Or if they all do reconcile, I can be more comfortable saying "I believe it's so". So as I said, what you say makes a lot of sense and you very well may be right, there are just some other questions I need answered (for me) to be able to say for sure. Maybe later I can make my questions make more sense..was sort of typing in a hurry. :heat: I'll think about it some more. Blessings.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 16, 2013, 06:51:58 AM
No. Jesus was a jewish rabbi speaking to jews. The way of the Law was the narrow way. Few would even make discovery of it, and "many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." That is in contrast to"My yoke is easy and my burden is light." "Whoever wants to may come"
My first thought when I read the quoted part:
During Jesus' time there were 2 sets of laws that the Jews believed made a person righteous.
613 Mosaic laws.
OR
7 Noahide laws.
What if
narrow doesn't mean 'very hard' but
few in number?
The wide 613 lane road was so hard to navigate failure was a fact.
The reason few Jews would find it was that they kept following the impossible 613 laws wide road.
:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:
The prohibition of Idolatry.
The prohibition of Murder.
The prohibition of Theft.
The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
The prohibition of Blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.
QuoteBut Jesus never says "I AM the narrow gate." Or "I AM the difficult way." He could've called himself any of these but He did not. He says He Is The Only Way, but never the Narrow, Difficult, Hidden Way.
2.) Would any doctrine change had He clearly stated He was the door, gate, or way we should work to enter?
Gate=door ?
Deuteronomy is Devarim in Hebrew.
Devarim in Hebraic understanding means the "mouth" of Torah; a summarizing all that has happened before in "the main body."
Another word for this book in Hebrew is Suf Debar – last words. It contains Moshe's last words, his farewell discourse and a song to Israel.
Agriculturally, Devarim/Deuteronomy means to point back to a food source, or head of the house.
Devarim is: Dalet-bet-resh = Devar (word). Dalet being the door, bet/resh is bar, the son. Debar, The Word is the door through which the Son comes.
Deuteronomy = Devarim = The Word is the door through which the Son comes.
(http://torahtothetribes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/3rd-Devarim-PP.002.jpg)
I hope to clear some of this up and maybe work out some of the bugs in my presentation of this whole concept. Here Goes: Jesus says there is a narrow door and a wide door (Matt 7:13). There is a narrow door and a hard road leading to life (Matt 7:14) There is a narrow gate(Luke13:24).
We have been taught that Jesus is the narrow door and the narrow gate that leads to life. After obtaining this life we then begin to live the Christian life which is a hard road to walk. If we don't enter into salvation by Him we are on the broad road to destruction.
Jesus says here that very few ever discover the narrow door (Matt.7:14). If we do discover the narrow gate we are told to strive (work very hard) to enter it.But even after this striving we probably won't be able t enter it.
My first conclusion is that the narrow door and gate is not Jesus. Jesus is not hidden. We are never told to work hard to receive salvation through him but we probably will not be able to enter into it after all. Jesus is the only way to salvation, but being exclusive does not equal being elusive.
So, if the narrow gate and hard road is not Jesus what is it? The only answer that makes sense to me is Judaism. It is trying to obtain salvation through obeying the Law. It doesn't matter whose law or how many laws. Living by the law puts you on the road to destruction. Salvation is found only through Jesus. A salvation by the law is the same as being on the broad road. If the narrow way and gate is not Judaism that doesn't mean it is Jesus. I am convinced it is not Jesus. There are too many ways that this clashes and contradicts what we know about Jesus. and salvation.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 16, 2013, 01:07:22 PM
It is trying to obtain salvation through obeying the Law. It doesn't matter whose law or how many laws. Living by the law puts you on the road to destruction. Salvation is found only through Jesus. A salvation by the law is the same as being on the broad road. If the narrow way and gate is not Judaism that doesn't mean it is Jesus.
Matt 11:25-30 (AKJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in your sight.
27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
The yoke is the law. Less laws but still laws. Law against blasphemy for example.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 16, 2013, 05:37:58 AM
I would like to post a brief paper I have written concerning what Jesus was speaking of regarding the narrow gate and difficult way. Find it as an attatchment with this post. Thank you.
Here is a link to the free download of Word Viewer for those of us who don't have Microsoft Office.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=4
For those of you who can't get Word Viewer, here is the text of the .doc file.
"Is Jesus the Narrow Way?
The following passages are usually taken as Jesus speaking of Himself being the narrow door or narrow gate. But Consider that the narrow gate and door is Judaism.
Matt 7:12 All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.
V. 13 Go in by the narrow door; for wide is the door and open is the way which goes to destruction and great numbers go in by it.
V. 14 for narrow is the door and hard the road to life and only a small number
make discovery of it.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
1.) Neither Jesus nor the Scripture call Jesus 'the narrow gate or difficult way.'
Many times in Scripture Jesus describes Himself with the words "I AM..."
John 6:51:"I AM the living bread."
John 8:12: I AM the light of the world."
John 10:9: "I AM the door."
John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd."
John 15:1: "I AM the true vine."
But Jesus never says "I AM the narrow gate." Or "I AM the difficult way." He could've called himself any of these but He did not. He says He Is The Only Way, but never the Narrow, Difficult, Hidden Way.
2.) Would any doctrine change had He clearly stated He was the door, gate, or way we should work to enter?
If we read these verses as though He spoke of Himself that would mean He taught that salvation is a result of working hard yet still not making it. They could read something like this:
Luke 13:24 "I AM the narrow gate. Strive to enter in by me, the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in by me and shall not be able.
Matt 7:14 "Narrow is the door and hard the road to life. I AM the narrow door and only a small number find Me."
This is salvation by keeping the Law.
3.) Might something change if one believes Jesus isn't the narrow way, but that Judaism is?
Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi speaking to Jews. In Matt.7:12 He is talking to Jews. He came for the Jews. Matthew 10:5-6; Matthew 15:24.
So, if Jesus is not the narrow, difficult gate and path and we can put these terms within the religious timeframe in which they were spoken a great shift in our view of His work on the cross will occur. The relentless pursuit of God for us and His constant desire for relationship with us can finally make sense. Luke 14: 16-23 can take on a new light as His servants compel many to come. Not just a few. This change of perspective can help us see that we can easily become His children and run into His wide open arms.
The gate has been made easily accessible by Jesus. He made the gate and the path open to everyone when, at His death the VEIL, which separated everyone from God, WAS TORN DOWN from top to bottom.
2Cor 3:14 but (the Jews) minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that It Is Done Away In Christ.!
2Cor 3:15 "but unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart." There is no veil. The barrier between God and man is gone! We can now see God as the Prodigal Son's Father. He watches for all to come to Him. When we do He runs toward us.
Bob Collins
©2012"
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
The yoke is the law. Less laws but still laws. Law against blasphemy for example.
White Wings: I believe the yoke is the teaching of the Rabbi.
Correct. Jesus was one of them.
Please read this post: http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136452/#msg136452 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136452/#msg136452)
narrow gate shut up at night......the very reason He says walk inthe light while ye have the light
all things are lawfull[613]..but not all things are expiediant.....
LOVE does NOT bind up heavy loads on men..impossible for men to bear............saadducees
and Pharisees will[offspring of vipers] they are unwilling tolift their little finger.....
eventhe Holy spirit declared a few necessary things...........see1Kings 12;13
legalistic hard hearts will and do bind up heavy loads[oppresive laws/decree's]impossible
to bear.
the children are free from the temple tax..but in order that we don't stumble them.....
.
it was easy fortherich men tooffer a bullock,goat etc for his sin..to the preists.....but not
any easy thing to the poor....thus when a rich man come he had his camelloaded down with
much to offer at the temple..
thus the disciples were greatly astounded andasked 'who then can be saved?'
go sell your possessions andgive to the poor..andthencome follow me....thusitis easier
for acamel togothrough the eye ofaneedle[ then forarichman toenter the Kingdom.....the narrow
gateis the eyeof the needle.
the worship at thetemple in Jerusalem and allit's requirements had become a hardship
onthe poor...why should the worshipping ofGod be more difficult for a poor man......
why JesusandHisdisciple'shad to have miracle of provision to pay rquired temple tax.
itis the same today...when something meant as a kindness is turned into a hardship...
e;xdeath infamily..andfuneralexpenses.people used to carry infood tothe mourning family
if you were a member of church..church would dothis tocomfort.
now it has become a great hardship onthe poor...for not only dothey have the funeral expense
they are nowexpected to feed all the funeral attendee's!!! I have seen poor families
struggling to see to this very thing.
the widow's mite and equity of judgement ofGod
there is an account in 1 Kings 12;13...'Lighten the yoke your Father put on us"
the younger men counseled......My little finger is thicker then my father's waist........
My Father scourged you with whips...I will scourge you with scorpions.....thus..wefind
in the revelation of Christ those sealed suffer not the 5 months of locusts scorpion tail stings
many stripes tothe wicked servant...a whip to the moneychangers...repentofthe work
of your hands[laying up heavy loads onthe people] impossible to bear[in whatever maanner
they would do to the two wittnesses..in the like manner it would be done untothem]
fire comes out of theirmouths/=any tongue that rises up and condemns you..you shall
condemn....
there is no longer a temple ta xbecause in that city there is no temple in it.
at present..due to still inthis fleshly body..we have caesar's tax...funeral expenses etc
income taxetc
this isjust some ofmy 'ponderings'onthese things........ :Chinscratch:
LAW + MAN = DEATH
LAW + JESUS = LIFE
We all sin, and the law requires that sin be punished by death.
Jesus paid the debt by dying at the cross, fulfilling the requirement of the law.
God has provided all menwith the passover Lamb...just as a ram inthe bush was provided for
Abraham. Thesacrifices required under law have beenfulfilled forus 'poor inspirit' relatives
Quote from: sheila on September 16, 2013, 08:46:35 PM
God has provided all menwith the passover Lamb...just as a ram inthe bush was provided for
Abraham. Thesacrifices required under law have beenfulfilled forus 'poor inspirit' relatives
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 16, 2013, 08:35:25 PM
LAW + MAN = DEATH
LAW + JESUS = LIFE
We all sin, and the law requires that sin be punished by death.
Jesus paid the debt by dying at the cross, fulfilling the requirement of the law.
Amen. :2thumbs: Worthy is the Lamb.
When I realized that Jesus was not the narrow, hidden, difficult, hard to find, to enter and to walk in gate, way, path, etc. I saw His life ,love, pursuit of and sacrifice for me and the world in a clearer more focused way. He has made the entrance into Himself as open and easy as He can for all the world.(Thus part of the title of this paper 'a small step toward Christian Universalism'). The barriers are done away with in Jesus. He is not trying to keep out as many as He can. The Good News is really good news for all.
He is the Light. In Him there is no darkness. Where He is there is Light everyplace all the time. He really does love all of us.
I'm going to be bold and disagree with you, with all due respect and humility. I do not believe Jesus was saying that Judaism was the narrow gate. Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." A gate is a way in, like a door, a passageway. Jesus said "through me," such as one might pass "through" a gate. There was a narrow gate, and a broad gate. One was narrow, symbolizing a low traffic count. The other was broad, symbolizing that most will use it instead. IMO, this is a metaphor symbolizing how mankind will come to the Father - a few will find the Jesus gate, but most will go through the other way, the lake of fire.
Now there does seem to be a contradiction between these two passages of scripture:
Mat 7.12-14 - "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
AND
Mat 11:30 - "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
HOWEVER, IMO:
Upon further study, these passages are used in different contexts. The gate passage is used to indicate the quantities of people who will enter each gate. The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up. The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers. And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will. This difficulty has nothing to do with the yoke passage. The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees). The yoke is the guiding component of the plowing outfit used on oxen. Jesus audience was very familiar with oxen, plows, yokes, and beasts of burden. They understood that Jesus was talking about bearing a heavy burden of Pharisee rules, and they longed to lighten that burden.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 17, 2013, 12:49:04 AM
IMO, this is a metaphor symbolizing how mankind will come to the Father - a few will find the Jesus gate, but most will go through the other way, the lake of fire.
I had said earlier that I thought Bob's view made a lot of sense, and now I'll say the same for yours jb. Either way one takes the specifics of the narrow way, Jesus did say He is the way and no one comes but through Him. So if it's Bob's view, then I still believe the many/rest won't come through Jesus until later, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses. OTOH, if it's jb's view, then I
still believe the many/rest won't come through Jesus until later, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (the conditions being set for confession/rebirth as through fire). So IMO, the end result is really still the same. :2c: The only difference might be in THIS life/age, where Bob's view might have more people getting saved now, while jb's view would be that less are saved now. So do we believe most are coming to Jesus in this life, or do we believe most are still in darkness and won't see, come, taste until the consummation? I guess I'd still lean to the latter. Now can both views reconcile somehow, or is it one or the other...
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 17, 2013, 12:49:04 AM
I'm going to be bold and disagree with you, with all due respect and humility. I do not believe Jesus was saying that Judaism was the narrow gate. Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Now there does seem to be a contradiction between these two passages of scripture:
Mat 7.12-14 - "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
AND
Mat 11:30 - "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
HOWEVER, IMO:
The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up. The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers. And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will. This difficulty has nothing to do with the yoke passage. The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees). The yoke is the guiding component of the plowing outfit used on oxen. Jesus audience was very familiar with oxen, plows, yokes, and beasts of burden. They understood that Jesus was talking about bearing a heavy burden of Pharisee rules, and they longed to lighten that burden.
I do apprecate your approach and humility. I used to participate in a Christian board which seemed to be filled with angry know everything people. I welcome discussion and disagreement done with kindness. As to your disagreements: My paper mentions that Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life...I believe this shows a difference in that He never said "I am the Narrow,or Difficult,or Hard to find Way." I believe Jesus is the Only Way to salvation. I also mention in some later remarks that even if I am wrong about the Judaism part the case,IMO is pretty strong that the narrow, hard to find,etc. part is not Jesus. Whatever it is, it is not Him. There are too many places where God makes it clear that He pursues us, and has made every effort to reveal Himself and His love for us. He is the One who remove the veil of separation.
If I may wih humility mention some thoughts on your remarks about the broad and narrow gates. You say "The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up. The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers. And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will... The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees). May I say that it seems to me that in giving your reasons why the easy way is easy and the hard way is hard you put yourself in the same situation as the Pharasees with man made precepts placed on others. More is assumed by you as to the Why of these things; where IMO my position has more Scriptural support. With humility,fortytworc
Interesting comparison about narrow gates;
when handling sheep ready for counting/shearing/treating etc one usually has a gate which only allows one at a time.
A narrow gate of Christ being the way highlights even more that we are individuals among many and He treats us one at a time as we enter through Him.
Quote from: jabcat on September 17, 2013, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 17, 2013, 12:49:04 AM
IMO, this is a metaphor symbolizing how mankind will come to the Father - a few will find the Jesus gate, but most will go through the other way, the lake of fire.
I had said earlier that I thought Bob's view made a lot of sense, and now I'll say the same for yours jb. Either way one takes the specifics of the narrow way, Jesus did say He is the way and no one comes but through Him. So if it's Bob's view, then I still believe the many/rest won't come through Jesus until later, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses. OTOH, if it's jb's view, then I still believe the many/rest won't come through Jesus until later, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (the conditions being set for confession/rebirth as through fire). So IMO, the end result is really still the same. :2c: The only difference might be in THIS life/age, where Bob's view might have more people getting saved now, while jb's view would be that less are saved now. So do we believe most are coming to Jesus in this life, or do we believe most are still in darkness and won't see, come, taste until the consummation? I guess I'd still lean to the latter. Now can both views reconcile somehow, or is it one or the other...
I think what you present sounds good. We may not know until we enter eternity if more are saved now or later.I guess that depends on your view of some of the differing details in universalism. The importance for me in seeing Jesus as not the hard...etc.way is in the effect it has on my relationship day to day with Jesus. How do I percieve Him as He is revealed in Scripture. Believe me, it makes a difference. Is He a whip cracking harsh disciplinarian who waits for me to mess up? Or can I easily walk with Him, rest in His arms and not have to hide when I do need His corection? Does His rod and staf comfort me or crack my head? I've been of both views, The latter is, I believe, better and more accurate. Thank you
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 03:02:03 AM
my relationship day to day with Jesus. How do I percieve Him as He is revealed in Scripture. Believe me, it makes a difference. Is He a whip cracking harsh disciplinarian who waits for me to mess up? Or can I easily walk with Him, rest in His arms and not have to hide when I do need His corection? Does His rod and staf comfort me or crack my head? Thank you
That's what I've been more focusing on, what the relationship is like, am I struggling and fretting or am I depending on Him and trusting that His yoke is indeed easy, and what does that mean as I interact with Him day to day. Amen, thank you. Blessings, James.
I was thinking on my last post and realized I had gotten just a little off track. Though in my day to day relationship with God I want to be like Adam and Eve, having close, easy, intimate times with Him I should want that to be solidly based on the Scriptures. In regards to my beliefs that Jesus is not the narrow way I still can say the Scripture is what I am grounded on.
If I am to understand that Jesus is saying (Paraphrasing)Luke 13:24 "I AM the narrow gate. Strive to enter in by me, the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in by me and shall not be able.
Matt 7:14 "Narrow is the door and hard the road to life. I AM the narrow door and only a small number find Me."
then salvation is by works. And even then my seeking and hard work will probably position me as one of the majority who "seek to enter in by Him and shall not be able."If He is hidden except for the seekers why do even they not truly find Him? So, I end up with as solid Biblical description of a Savior Who Loves to do all He can to reveal Himself in order to have that intimate day by day walk. It is, as they say, a win win situation.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 02:41:03 AMMy paper mentions that Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life...I believe this shows a difference in that He never said "I am the Narrow,or Difficult,or Hard to find Way."
Quote from: jbertYou say "The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up. The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers. And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will... The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees).
QuoteMay I say that it seems to me that in giving your reasons why the easy way is easy and the hard way is hard you put yourself in the same situation as the Pharasees with man made precepts placed on others. More is assumed by you as to the Why of these things; where IMO my position has more Scriptural support.
I'm not so sure about Scriptual support. Let's try to align some of the relevant verses.
Jesus said He's the way/gate. Jesus is the only way to salvation, so if we find Jesus we find the gate.
Jesus spoke about a wide and a narrow gate. The narrow gate is the positive gate. The wide gate the negative one. Obviously Jesus is the narrow gate.
Conclusion so far: Narrow gate = Jesus = path to salvation.
Light and heavy yokes/burdens.
The yoke of Jesus was light. A yoke is a teaching.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136452/#msg136452Conclusion so far: Narrow gate = Jesus = path to salvation = light yoke = 'light' teaching.
Also review reply #23 which connects law with gate.
So the gate is about teaching, laws etc.
Of course faith, works and grace can't be left out of the picture. I'll start a new thread about that because, imo, the vast majority of Christians don't know what faith and works are/mean from a Biblical perspective.
:Peace2:
It seems to me that what we have is:
Matt.7:13
1.) There is a wide door
2.) There is an open way
3.) The wide door and open way lead to destruction
4.) Many enter the wide door and open way
Matt.7:14
5.) There is a narrow door
6.) There is a hard way
7.) The narrow door and hard way lead to life
8.) Only a few discover the narrow door and hard way
Luke 13:24
9.) We are to Strive to enter in at the narrow gate
10.) Many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
So far we have: Wide Door and Open way=Destruction + Many enter here=Many destroyed
Narrow Door and Hard Way + only a few even discover it +Those who work hard (strive) to enter this gate will not be able to do so = Those few who discover this gate and way which leads to life cannot enter it= destruction
What we don't have: Jesus does not say He is any of these doors, gates, and ways.
What we don't have: any place in the Scripture: Jesus saying it is hard, difficult or near impossible to enter into life through Himself
What we don't have here or any place in Scripture: Jesus saying we are to strive to enter life through Him or that once we find Him as our way into life we will be SOL even if we work hard.
Conclusion: Jesus is not a narrow door, a wide door, a narrow gate, a hard way, hard to discover.
I am really not trying to be difficult here. It's just that I have heard that these verses taught about Jesus being the narrow hard to find, hard to enter gate since I was 10 years old. I always accepted that. But I truly believe that He recently showed me that I had been taught wrong. Not that anyone was a heretic or that my view is always correct. But I have really seen a way to read these verses that is more in line with God's character than the other way.
1-5] Agreed.
9] Agreed.
QuoteWhat we don't have: Jesus does not say He is any of these doors, gates, and ways.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except
through me.
Jesus clearly states He's the way. Factoid: Easly Christians called themselves followers of the path/way.
"through" can be read as a gate.
QuoteWhat we don't have: any place in the Scripture: Jesus saying it is hard, difficult or near impossible to enter into life through Himself
Luke 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
For some reason it sounds difficult.... Perhaps the reason is:
John 6:44 "
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
But none of that means the teachings of Jesus as difficult. His yoke is light. The Pharisee/Mosaic yoke was very heavy.
QuoteWhat we don't have here or any place in Scripture: Jesus saying we are to strive to enter life through Him
I think that's exactly what Scripture says. Not only that it says it's the only way. --> THE way not A way.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Quoteor that once we find Him as our way into life we will be SOL even if we work hard.
What is SOL?
QuoteConclusion: Jesus is not a narrow door, a wide door, a narrow gate, a hard way, hard to discover.
I guess it's no surprise I disagree :winkgrin:
Summary of my thoughts:
- Jesus is the way, road, narrow gate.
- Many won't find it because they keep following their own set of laws
- It can only be found when Father starts drawing at the time He picks.
QuoteI am really not trying to be difficult here. It's just that I have heard that these verses taught about Jesus being the narrow hard to find, hard to enter the gate since I was 10 years old. I always accepted that. But I truly believe that He recently showed me that I had been taught wrong. Not that anyone was a heretic or that my view is always correct. But I have really seen a way to read these verses that is more in line with God's character than the other way.
It's good to think outside the box. But not everything outside the box is good. When we find a new box we must be prepared to think out of that box too.
:2c:
Quote from: jabcat on September 17, 2013, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 17, 2013, 12:49:04 AM
IMO, this is a metaphor symbolizing how mankind will come to the Father - a few will find the Jesus gate, but most will go through the other way, the lake of fire.
I had said earlier that I thought Bob's view made a lot of sense, and now I'll say the same for yours jb. Either way one takes the specifics of the narrow way, Jesus did say He is the way and no one comes but through Him. So if it's Bob's view, then I still believe the many/rest won't come through Jesus until later, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses. OTOH, if it's jb's view, then I still believe the many/rest won't come through Jesus until later, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (the conditions being set for confession/rebirth as through fire). So IMO, the end result is really still the same. :2c: The only difference might be in THIS life/age, where Bob's view might have more people getting saved now, while jb's view would be that less are saved now. So do we believe most are coming to Jesus in this life, or do we believe most are still in darkness and won't see, come, taste until the consummation? I guess I'd still lean to the latter. Now can both views reconcile somehow, or is it one or the other...
Absolutely. :thumbsup: Either way, Jesus is the one who purchased mankind, and no one will come to the Father but through him.
BTW, Often when I share UR with Et'ers, they say, "So you're saying Jesus is not the only way?"
Dang!
WW said, "It's good to think outside the box. But not everything outside the box is good. When we find a new box we must be prepared to think out of that box too."
Simply profound! :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2013, 11:16:39 AM
1-5] Agreed.
9] Agreed.
QuoteWhat we don't have: Jesus does not say He is any of these doors, gates, and ways.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus clearly states He's the way. Factoid: Easly Christians called themselves followers of the path/way.
"through" can be read as a gate.
QuoteWhat we don't have: any place in the Scripture: Jesus saying it is hard, difficult or near impossible to enter into life through Himself
Luke 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
For some reason it sounds difficult.... Perhaps the reason is:
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
But none of that means the teachings of Jesus as difficult. His yoke is light. The Pharisee/Mosaic yoke was very heavy.
QuoteWhat we don't have here or any place in Scripture: Jesus saying we are to strive to enter life through Him
I think that's exactly what Scripture says. Not only that it says it's the only way. --> THE way not A way.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Quoteor that once we find Him as our way into life we will be SOL even if we work hard.
What is SOL?
QuoteConclusion: Jesus is not a narrow door, a wide door, a narrow gate, a hard way, hard to discover.
I guess it's no surprise I disagree :winkgrin:
Summary of my thoughts:
- Jesus is the way, road, narrow gate.
- Many won't find it because they keep following their own set of laws
- It can only be found when Father starts drawing at the time He picks.
QuoteI am really not trying to be difficult here. It's just that I have heard that these verses taught about Jesus being the narrow hard to find, hard to enter the gate since I was 10 years old. I always accepted that. But I truly believe that He recently showed me that I had been taught wrong. Not that anyone was a heretic or that my view is always correct. But I have really seen a way to read these verses that is more in line with God's character than the other way.
It's good to think outside the box. But not everything outside the box is good. When we find a new box we must be prepared to think out of that box too.
:2c:
Hey WW, :thumbsup:.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2013, 07:16:47 AM
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 02:41:03 AMMy paper mentions that Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life...I believe this shows a difference in that He never said "I am the Narrow,or Difficult,or Hard to find Way."
Quote from: jbertYou say "The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up. The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers. And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will... The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees).
QuoteMay I say that it seems to me that in giving your reasons why the easy way is easy and the hard way is hard you put yourself in the same situation as the Pharasees with man made precepts placed on others. More is assumed by you as to the Why of these things; where IMO my position has more Scriptural support.
I'm not so sure about Scriptual support. Let's try to align some of the relevant verses.
Jesus said He's the way/gate. Jesus is the only way to salvation, so if we find Jesus we find the gate.
Jesus spoke about a wide and a narrow gate. The narrow gate is the positive gate. The wide gate the negative one. Obviously Jesus is the narrow gate.
Conclusion so far: Narrow gate = Jesus = path to salvation.
Light and heavy yokes/burdens.
The yoke of Jesus was light. A yoke is a teaching. http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136452/#msg136452
Conclusion so far: Narrow gate = Jesus = path to salvation = light yoke = 'light' teaching.
Also review reply #23 which connects law with gate.
So the gate is about teaching, laws etc.
Of course faith, works and grace can't be left out of the picture. I'll start a new thread about that because, imo, the vast majority of Christians don't know what faith and works are/mean from a Biblical perspective.
:Peace2:
:iagree:
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 02:41:03 AM
May I say that it seems to me that in giving your reasons why the easy way is easy and the hard way is hard you put yourself in the same situation as the Pharasees with man made precepts placed on others.
Really? I don't believe I placed any Pharisee-istic man-made precepts on anyone. How do you mean this?
When you say "The broad gate is easy because... The narrow gate is hard to find because... The reasons you give are not given her. The why is not explained. You do not come across as heavy handed and maybe I could have phrased my observation differently. I do not mean to say you are like a pharisee. Forgive me if that is how it sounded. I know for myself, it is easy to 'see' where someone else needs to fall in line to be living as I think. So when you gave reasons why others may be or not be on a given way or at a given gate I guess I read my own inclinations into you, which was wrong of me to do. Please forgive me.
On another note, you say " the truth is hidden for the seekers. when Jesus said "many will seek to enter but will not be able...?
Thanks for your patience with me.
For all who have and are responding to my thoughts: Thank you. I have, and am considering all you are offering.Also, to put emphasis on this one point...I know Jesus said "I am the Way." I appreciate all who have been logical in going over what I have said. Spelling out where and why you disagree with me gives me something to think on. I am still listening and thinking. I believe I have addressed all points as given to me. Some have presented where they differ on some points but stop on others. Whenever I have a question about something I usually know what the status quo answer is. That is why I am not satisfied with any standard answers given about my post. when I know Jesus said,"I am the Way", and someone points this out to me as an answer to my point that He never says He is the narrow etc. way, that is not an answer. The two are different. Being exclusive does not equal being elusive, hard, hidden,etc. I still welcome all responses. Dismantle my proposal. But do it logically with firm foundations. We may end up just disagreeing. I truly am honestly seeking to know if my thoughts have any foundation. I understand any dissonance occurring. I would ask that those experiencing it would try to realize that, though it doesn't make me right, it may be in the way of your ability to fully consider my proposal. Once again, Thank You All.I need to add : I suffer from Parkinson's' Disease and many times this delays and limits my time and the length of my responses. Thank you for your patience.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
When you say "The broad gate is easy because... The narrow gate is hard to find because... The reasons you give are not given her. The why is not explained. You do not come across as heavy handed and maybe I could have phrased my observation differently. I do not mean to say you are like a pharisee. Forgive me if that is how it sounded. I know for myself, it is easy to 'see' where someone else needs to fall in line to be living as I think. So when you gave reasons why others may be or not be on a given way or at a given gate I guess I read my own inclinations into you, which was wrong of me to do. Please forgive me.
On another note, you say " the truth is hidden for the seekers. when Jesus said "many will seek to enter but will not be able...?
Thanks for your patience with me.
I am not offended. There is nothing to forgive. I just didn't understand how you meant it.
To call ourselves "seekers of the Truth" is
not the same as those who seek to find their way to God by a way other than through Jesus.
I am both a vessel made for destruction and a vessel made for honor.
The vessel made for destruction will be destroyed!
The path to destruction starts at birth.
We have all the evidence we need,
to know that death is the destruction of our mortality.
The vessel made for honor is immortal.
Being alive I have conciseness; I can be conscience (in real time and space) of the path that leads to destruction.
Being alive I have conciseness; I can be conscience (in real time and space) of the path that leads to
Life immortality.
The knowledge of good and evil is the way to the path of destruction.
The knowledge of good and evil is a very wide path.
The faith that Jesus met all of the requirements of Love.
The faith that Jesus met all of the requirements of Love for me .
I am free to look away from the science and field of the knowledge of good and evil.
The Holy Spirit brings glory to Jesus every time I am conscience of GOD.
I can have an open and honest relationship with God now
while I live and breathe in this body of death.
Science can separate and identify one atom from an other .
If we were to separate Good from Evil that separating line would be the ultimate
description of Narrow.
This to me is the Narrow way.
Not looking to God and having a conciseness of the good I have done for him.
Not looking to God and having a conciseness of the evil I have done.
Rather looking in faith and being conscience of the Love the Father has for the Son.
The Holy Spirit constantly comforting me that the Lord is receiving,
the love I desire to give him.
The Love I receive from God freely given to me.
My whole being wants to respond to this Love.
I cannot respond to this Love while walking on the path to destruction (Good and Evil)
I can respond while on the narrow path by allowing the joy of knowing God.
On this path my joy is an acceptable sacrifice. (receiving joy).
These are my opinions and may or may not be scriptural.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 09:31:32 PM
For all who have and are responding to my thoughts: Thank you. I have, and am considering all you are offering.Also, to put emphasis on this one point...I know Jesus said "I am the Way." I appreciate all who have been logical in going over what I have said. Spelling out where and why you disagree with me gives me something to think on. I am still listening and thinking. I believe I have addressed all points as given to me. Some have presented where they differ on some points but stop on others. Whenever I have a question about something I usually know what the status quo answer is. That is why I am not satisfied with any standard answers given about my post. when I know Jesus said,"I am the Way", and someone points this out to me as an answer to my point that He never says He is the narrow etc. way, that is not an answer. The two are different. Being exclusive does not equal being elusive, hard, hidden,etc. I still welcome all responses. Dismantle my proposal. But do it logically with firm foundations. We may end up just disagreeing. I truly am honestly seeking to know if my thoughts have any foundation. I understand any dissonance occurring. I would ask that those experiencing it would try to realize that, though it doesn't make me right, it may be in the way of your ability to fully consider my proposal. Once again, Thank You All.I need to add : I suffer from Parkinson's' Disease and many times this delays and limits my time and the length of my responses. Thank you for your patience.
We were made social creatures, and we learn by sharing ideas. I can assure you that I don't accept the status quo type of standard answers either. I know all too well how the world has distorted so much of the scriptures and the gospel. I too am a Truth seeker. I question the common "standard" beliefs, and study deeply in the scriptures. I listen for the Spirit's guidance and I pray for understanding and wisdom. I am sure that I don't understand all things, nor do I have enough wisdom to put me above anyone else. I am also sure that I may still have some of the old ET-trained responses in my repertoire, unawares. I pray that my lord, Jesus, will purge these from me and teach me only
his truth by his Spirit. :Pray:
I want truth. Ultimately Jesus is The Truth. I seek to walk in the truth. Being correct from time to time may be a bonus, but when all is said and done I want to hear my Lord and Savior say, "Well done Good and Faithful Servant." Hearing You were correct in most of your doctrine is not an option even mentioned in Scripture. Now I see dimly but then I will see Him face to face. I will be like Him for I will see Him as He is.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of
At this point an interesting picture of the Judgment of the Souls is presented: Two gates, one narrow and one wide, lead into heaven; and before them sits upon a golden throne a man whose appearance is terrible like that of the Lord. It is Adam, the image of the Lord (B. B. 58a); and all the souls pass by him—the just through the narrow gate and the wicked through the wide gate, each by his own merit or demerit, but none encumbered by Adam's sin (Tan., Num., ed. Buber, p. 124; Zohar, Gen. vii. 6). Abraham is allowed to watch the procedure of judgment within the wide gate.
I just came across this url to an entry in The Jewish Encyclopedia. I copied an excerpt from it. It would appear that when Jesus spoke of the narrow and wide gates the people would understand them to have some reference, or connection to an ancient Jewish belief of an experience Abraham supposedly had while watching "The Judgment of Souls". Both gates lead into heaven and split into two gates, one narrow and one wide. The souls are judged by their works and goonto each respective gate by their merit. If Jesus was speaking to Jewish listeners they would relate those gates to this tradition. Since Jesus had not yet been crucified He was most likely speaking in terms they would understand at that time rather than of a gate with which they had no reference. This helps substantiate my assertion that He was speaking of Judaism and not Himself as the door, gate...
Quote from: fortytworc on September 17, 2013, 11:33:45 PM
I want truth. Ultimately Jesus is The Truth. I seek to walk in the truth. Being correct from time to time may be a bonus, but when all is said and done I want to hear my Lord and Savior say, "Well done Good and Faithful Servant."
That would be good but the very minimum.
The 'ranks' (=covenats) are servant, friendship, inheritance, marriage.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 05:54:03 AM
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of
At this point an interesting picture of the Judgment of the Souls is presented: Two gates, one narrow and one wide, lead into heaven; and before them sits upon a golden throne a man whose appearance is terrible like that of the Lord. It is Adam, the image of the Lord (B. B. 58a); and all the souls pass by him—the just through the narrow gate and the wicked through the wide gate, each by his own merit or demerit, but none encumbered by Adam's sin (Tan., Num., ed. Buber, p. 124; Zohar, Gen. vii. 6). Abraham is allowed to watch the procedure of judgment within the wide gate.
I just came across this url to an entry in The Jewish Encyclopedia. I copied an excerpt from it. It would appear that when Jesus spoke of the narrow and wide gates the people would understand them to have some reference, or connection to an ancient Jewish belief of an experience Abraham supposedly had while watching "The Judgment of Souls". Both gates lead into heaven and split into two gates, one narrow and one wide. The souls are judged by their works and goonto each respective gate by their merit. If Jesus was speaking to Jewish listeners they would relate those gates to this tradition. Since Jesus had not yet been crucified He was most likely speaking in terms they would understand at that time rather than of a gate with which they had no reference. This helps substantiate my assertion that He was speaking of Judaism and not Himself as the door, gate...
Jesus used lots of terms the Jews understood. I think they understood (almost) all of it. But not on all levels.
Lamb, branch, harvests, messiah were all very well known things in Judaism. Does that mean none of them are
also point to Jesus because they were all traditions. Prophesies of, say, Daniel were also well known. So they can't point to Jesus?
I think this is what happened. First of all with all laws God sorta forced certain patterns in Jewish society and because of that Jesus teachings made sense. Those patterns were carefully crafted before the beginning of time. God guided their steps so to speak. So the their customs where not as manmade as many seem to think. Who gave that vision abou the gates? Only Father can do such things. So again some guiding is going on. The whole vision could be a fable. That's true. But even then it doesnt mean it can't be align with the truth.
If a pastor stood up on a Sunday morning and said, "Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Door through Whom you must enter. For the door that leads to destruction is wide, and the way is open. Many go in by the wide door. But I am the Narrow Door. Through Me the road to life is hard. Only a small number even discover Me.' "In another place Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Gate. You must strive to enter Me. Many will seek to enter through Me but they will not be able.' " Most of the listeners would notice that Jesus was saying that He is 1.) Hard to find. 2.) That the few who do find Him must strive (work very hard) to enter by Him 3.) Those will not be able to enter by Him. Is this not what Jesus was saying if He is the narrow door or the narrow gate? If He is the narrow door and the narrow gate hasn't He just said, "Only a small number discover Me. Those who discover Me must strive to enter but they will not be able to."? Is there any place in Scripture that speaks this way concerning Jesus?
Here are all of the "I AM..." Statements made by or about Jesus in the New Testament:
John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"
John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 15:1: "I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 19:21: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'"
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
Nowhere does Jesus say "I am the Narrow...I am hard to find...I am one you must strive to enter...If you do find me and strive to enter by me you will not be able."
Jesus is the Way and the Door. But He is not the hard to enter way or door.
On the contrary; He says if we see we will find Luke 11:9. And He Seeks Us! Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
These are why it finally did not make since that Jesus was saying He was the narrow way that was hard to find and impossible to enter. This is why I think What I have proposed is a step toward Christian Universalism. Where am I mistaken here?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 05:54:03 AM
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of
Jesus used lots of terms the Jews understood. I think they understood (almost) all of it. But not on all levels.
Lamb, branch, harvests, messiah were all very well known things in Judaism. Does that mean none of them are also point to Jesus because they were all traditions. Prophesies of, say, Daniel were also well known. So they can't point to Jesus?
I think this is what happened. First of all with all laws God sorta forced certain patterns in Jewish society and because of that Jesus teachings made sense. Those patterns were carefully crafted before the beginning of time. God guided their steps so to speak. So the their customs where not as manmade as many seem to think. Who gave that vision abou the gates? Only Father can do such things. So again some guiding is going on. The whole vision could be a fable. That's true. But even then it doesnt mean it can't be align with the truth.
You make a lot of assumptions.
I was just trying to establish that there are references to the narrow gate and wide gate which predate Jesus statements here; therefore it is at least possible He could be speaking of something other than Himself.without assuming a lot of stuff.
The truth is Not hard to find. It is IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Jhn 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Only Father leads us to truth, it simply cannot be found. However, one must indeed narrow ones beliefs and ego in order to Realize this. Jesus said to become as a child for a reason. What Father holds love from child? Not a Father of Love.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 03:45:50 PM
If a pastor stood up on a Sunday morning and said, "Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Door through Whom you must enter. For the door that leads to destruction is wide, and the way is open. Many go in by the wide door. But I am the Narrow Door. Through Me the road to life is hard. Only a small number even discover Me.' "In another place Jesus said, 'I am the Narrow Gate. You must strive to enter Me. Many will seek to enter through Me but they will not be able.' " Most of the listeners would notice that Jesus was saying that He is 1.) Hard to find. 2.) That the few who do find Him must strive (work very hard) to enter by Him 3.) Those will not be able to enter by Him. Is this not what Jesus was saying if He is the narrow door or the narrow gate? If He is the narrow door and the narrow gate hasn't He just said, "Only a small number discover Me. Those who discover Me must strive to enter but they will not be able to."? Is there any place in Scripture that speaks this way concerning Jesus?
Here are all of the "I AM..." Statements made by or about Jesus in the New Testament:
John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"
John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I AM from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I AM the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 10:9: "I AM the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."
John 10:11: "I AM the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 15:1: "I AM the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 19:21: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews."'"
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
Nowhere does Jesus say "I am the Narrow...I am hard to find...I am one you must strive to enter...If you do find me and strive to enter by me you will not be able."
Jesus is the Way and the Door. But He is not the hard to enter way or door.
On the contrary; He says if we see we will find Luke 11:9. And He Seeks Us! Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
These are why it finally did not make since that Jesus was saying He was the narrow way that was hard to find and impossible to enter. This is why I think What I have proposed is a step toward Christian Universalism. Where am I mistaken here?
There are lots of pastors out there teaching lots of distorted doctrines.Jesus was not saying that. He was saying that few are they who find the Truth (He is Truth). If it was easy, many would find truth. Look at the world around you - is that the case? To find Truth, one must humble and deny himself, one must seek, one must have faith and remain steadfast. These aren't things we do to earn our way. They are things the Father gives us and draws us into. The easy thing to do is to trust in ones own understanding and logic, feed ones own desires, and seek to satisfy oneself.No. To say such things would be a gross distortion of what Jesus was saying. I, personally, have never heard a preacher say those things.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 03:55:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 05:54:03 AM
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/364-abraham-testament-of
Jesus used lots of terms the Jews understood. I think they understood (almost) all of it. But not on all levels.
Lamb, branch, harvests, messiah were all very well known things in Judaism. Does that mean none of them are also point to Jesus because they were all traditions. Prophesies of, say, Daniel were also well known. So they can't point to Jesus?
I think this is what happened. First of all with all laws God sorta forced certain patterns in Jewish society and because of that Jesus teachings made sense. Those patterns were carefully crafted before the beginning of time. God guided their steps so to speak. So the their customs where not as manmade as many seem to think. Who gave that vision abou the gates? Only Father can do such things. So again some guiding is going on. The whole vision could be a fable. That's true. But even then it doesnt mean it can't be align with the truth.
You make a lot of assumptions.
I was just trying to establish that there are references to the narrow gate and wide gate which predate Jesus statements here; therefore it is at least possible He could be speaking of something other than Himself.without assuming a lot of stuff.
fortytworc, did you present anything besides assumptions?
You start with an assumption. Repeat is several times without taking the time to answer the replies of others. Then you post an article that doesn't prove your view either. But what I wrote about it is well known fact. Unless of course you reject all parallels between feasts/customs and Jesus.
:dontknow:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 18, 2013, 05:01:44 PM
The truth is Not hard to find. It is IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Jhn 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Only Father leads us to truth, it simply cannot be found. However, one must indeed narrow ones beliefs and ego in order to Realize this. Jesus said to become as a child for a reason. What Father holds love from child? Not a Father of Love.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
LIKE
There are lots of pastors out there teaching lots of distorted doctrines.
Jesus was not saying that. He was saying that few are they who find the Truth (He is Truth). If it was easy, many would find truth. Look at the world around you - is that the case? To find Truth, one must humble and deny himself, one must seek, one must have faith and remain steadfast. These aren't things we do to earn our way. They are things the Father gives us and draws us into. The easy thing to do is to trust in ones own understanding and logic, feed ones own desires, and seek to satisfy oneself.
No. To say such things would be a gross distortion of what Jesus was saying. I, personally, have never heard a preacher say those things.
[/quote]
I am trying to say that the truth has been distorted. I may not be coming across as humble, but if anyone was here with me they would see my face, hear my tone of voice and realize that though I am trying to be logical I am in no way trusting in logic. I am not trying to feed my own desires except the desire to have Him show me the truth. Self satisfaction is not what I want. I have,by His grace alone been steadfastly walking with Him for over 46 years. I just want to know Him....and the fellowship of His suffering. Not know about Him. I have felt that He has shown me more of Himself in revealing this other way to see this Scripture. I have kept asking these questions because I truly am wanting to know. I have raised 5 children and one thing a child does is ask questions. They ask boldly with the expectation that the adults know the answers. Sometimes their questions make us uncomfortable, but they ask. Maybe I should stop. I don't know.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 18, 2013, 05:13:35 PM
There are lots of pastors out there teaching lots of distorted doctrines.
Even worse. Each and every person that ever walked the earth. Of course with one well known exception.
QuoteJesus was not saying that. He was saying that few are they who find the Truth (He is Truth). If it was easy, many would find truth. Look at the world around you - is that the case? To find Truth, one must humble and deny himself, one must seek, one must have faith and remain steadfast. These aren't things we do to earn our way. They are things the Father gives us and draws us into. The easy thing to do is to trust in ones own understanding and logic, feed ones own desires, and seek to satisfy oneself.
Finding the truth is hard with a zillion doctrines and sticking to that doctrine even harder.
QuoteNo. To say such things would be a gross distortion of what Jesus was saying. I, personally, have never heard a preacher say those things.
I have to phrase this carefully to avoid :punish:
I think we all have seen the calculations that 95% ends in hell. To me that means they won't find the narrow gate and/or not enter it. And of course Jesus said something similar. Not many will enter.
I think we can agree on that. The reason why is far more interesting to discus.
I'll state a question and answer it with a few possibilities.
a]
Why many don't find the narrow gate?
- They simply aren't interested in religion or even hate it.
- Wrong religion.
- Their denomination is so sick they never will find the gate.
b]
If they they found it why can't they enter?
- Not because Father or Son set some sort of quotum.
- Because knowing a fact doesn't mean it can be easily followed up.
Example: We all know some excercise is healty. People who know that found the narrow gate so to speak. But 10 years later they still didn't do those sport activities (do things Jesus' way). So they can't enter. Not because Jesus didn't allow the to enter. The person had to lose some weight (earthly stuff) to fit through the narrow gate.
:2c:
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 06:27:41 PM
I am trying to say that the truth has been distorted. I may not be coming across as humble, but if anyone was here with me they would see my face, hear my tone of voice and realize that though I am trying to be logical I am in no way trusting in logic. I am not trying to feed my own desires except the desire to have Him show me the truth. Self satisfaction is not what I want. I have,by His grace alone been steadfastly walking with Him for over 46 years. I just want to know Him....and the fellowship of His suffering. Not know about Him. I have felt that He has shown me more of Himself in revealing this other way to see this Scripture. I have kept asking these questions because I truly am wanting to know. I have raised 5 children and one thing a child does is ask questions. They ask boldly with the expectation that the adults know the answers. Sometimes their questions make us uncomfortable, but they ask. Maybe I should stop. I don't know.
Luke 10:21 [ESV]
In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 07:18:16 PM
I have to phrase this carefully to avoid :punish:
I think we all have seen the calculations that 95% ends in hell. To me that means they won't find the narrow gate and/or not enter it. And of course Jesus said something similar. Not many will enter.
I think we can agree on that. The reason why is far more interesting to discus.
I'll state a question and answer it with a few possibilities.
a]
Why many don't find the narrow gate?
- They simply aren't interested in religion or even hate it.
- Wrong religion.
- Their denomination is so sick they never will find the gate.
b]
If they they found it why can't they enter?
- Not because Father or Son set some sort of quotum.
- Because knowing a fact doesn't mean it can be easily followed up.
Example: We all know some excercise is healty. People who know that found the narrow gate so to speak. But 10 years later they still didn't do those sport activities (do things Jesus' way). So they can't enter. Not because Jesus didn't allow the to enter. The person had to lose some weight (earthly stuff) to fit through the narrow gate.
:2c:
Love that analogy. I thing it sums it up pretty well. :thumbsup:
I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 07:34:57 PM
I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!
Dont bow out fortyworc
the way for me to see it , its simple in this sense
If you could only see Jesus as the Living right now , the tree of Life and only the SON / and those hidden in the son now
you would see that the narrow way that leads to Life is found in Christ
the rest are dead , all dead still , still even as Jesus said , in their sins , the thives and robbers , the example those two whom also hung on the cross with Jesus at the same time
one died in faith and in forgivness and was sent to paradise with Jesus that day , they other it does not say , for me, is still dead
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 07:34:57 PM
I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!
Don't do that man. You have a strong opinion. Others, me included, also stand up for their view. That's iron sharpens iron.
Sometimes no agreement is met. That's life....
Maybe you could present the
same view in other words. Examples. Verses to support your view. Even if you are 100% correct people won't change their view when an opinion is repeated over and over in the same way.
:friendstu:
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 07:34:57 PM
I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!
Yes Please stay fortyworc. This is not a contest even though the ego might have us feel it is. The simple truth is that we are all brothers and sisters holding onto the little light that we have. Sometimes it is difficult to see the light of others until we have learned not to be blinded by our own. This is something that being here, is helping us all.
Much Love,
Julie
Quote from: fortytworc on September 18, 2013, 07:34:57 PM
I'll bow out then. I want to thank everyone for your help, participation, and patience with me. Forgive any negativity on my part. Walk with God, always. Jesus is Lord!
If you read my original post in this thread, I presented information that agrees with your perspective. Don't get frustrated trying to get everybody to agree with you, bro. That never happens to me here either. Just present what you believe is the truth according to your perspective, and be willing to accept the different perspectives of others here on the forum. No two people are going to agree on everything. Just ask any married couple. For your sake, I have copied the text from my original post and pasted it to this one. Check it out, brother, and don't be discouraged.
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
OK. Perhaps I am not understanding what Fortytworc is saying in his essay. So given the verses quoted above in red, I decided to do the same thing as was done in the essay attached to the OP - substitute. Substitution is a valuable tool by which we can sometimes gain a better perspective on the meaning of the written word. Since it is averred that the metaphorical gate/door is Judaism, I am going to substitute the phrases "the narrow gate" and "the narrow door" with the word "Judaism," in blue below.
Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] 13 "Enter by Judaism. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through Judaism. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
My question is this:
Since Judaism was the religion of the Pharisees, as well as Jews today - who did not then and still today do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, then why would Jesus tell the people to enter through Judaism?
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 18, 2013, 10:09:54 PM
Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
OK. Perhaps I am not understanding what Fortytworc is saying in his essay. So given the verses quoted above in red, I decided to do the same thing as was done in the essay attached to the OP - substitute. Substitution is a valuable tool by which we can sometimes gain a better perspective on the meaning of the written word. Since it is averred that the metaphorical gate/door is Judaism, I am going to substitute the phrases "the narrow gate" and "the narrow door" with the word "Judaism," in blue below.
Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] 13 "Enter by Judaism. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through Judaism. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
My question is this:
Since Judaism was the religion of the Pharisees, as well as Jews today - who did not then and still today do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, then why would Jesus tell the people to enter through Judaism?
Christ didn't put down the law, only the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who claimed to live by the law but invalidated it with their corrupt tradition just like the church and its tradition today invalidates the word of God.
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." (Matthew 5:17,18)
"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)
The first verse of what we've been discussing gives the subject about what Christ was speaking.
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
That's why the Concordant Commentary says this.
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
Christ was commissioned to Israel who was given the law by God, and, when Christ returns to rule Israel, they will still have their law because there will be some who will be condemned to death for violating the law, and their corpses will be cast into Gehenna. That is what Christ was referring to in Isaiah 66:23,24, but church doctrine has distorted the truth by intentionally changing the word of God in twelve verses to give the impression that Gehenna is "hell," a place where those who die as unbelievers will be tortured alive in fire forever.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians.
"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)
We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
We are not even "the church." We are "the ecclesia" called out of the world, including the world religious system, the church, to be "the body of Christ." You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us. They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny, but the word of God is only concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be.
...just a thought............maybethe 'wide'aspect of Christ..that is being referred to..by
our newby...is inthis regard.... Ephesians 3;18... to grasp how wide... and long..and
deep is the Love of Christ. and this Proverbs 23;27and Prvrbs 2;16 a wayward wife
is a narrow well. Seeing it this way God's wayward wife['Israel] is a narrow well........
that does notsay 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"
nothing is evil in itself...be it wide or narrow................wide can be used to portray
as both a positive and a negative. As can narrow.
ex; her hips are narrow[good or evil?] herhips are wide[good or evil]Intent andpurpose.
42hope you stay around. and if He draw you by great crowd or you follow behind Him
through a narrow door......littleflock/other sheep Imust bring........Praise Him who takes away
all sin.
Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2013, 12:21:37 AM
Christ didn't put down the law, only the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who claimed to live by the law but invalidated it with their corrupt tradition just like the church and its tradition today invalidates the word of God. True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it. But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism. Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets. They don't believe in Jesus. Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom. Jesus is the only way! LAW + JESUS = SALVATION
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." (Matthew 5:17,18)
"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)
The first verse of what we've been discussing gives the subject about what Christ was speaking.
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in.
That's why the Concordant Commentary says this.
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. (What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking. Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.") All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
Christ was commissioned to Israel who was given the law by God, and, when Christ returns to rule Israel, they will still have their law because there will be some who will be condemned to death for violating the law, and their corpses will be cast into Gehenna. That is what Christ was referring to in Isaiah 66:23,24, but church doctrine has distorted the truth by intentionally changing the word of God in twelve verses to give the impression that Gehenna is "hell," a place where those who die as unbelievers will be tortured alive in fire forever.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians.
Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision:
Romans 2:25 - For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
Romans 2:26 - So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
1 Corinthians 7:19 - For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
Galatians 5:6 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9) Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?
We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law! Upon what scripture do you base this?
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
We are not even "the church." We are "the ecclesia" called out of the world, including the world religious system, the church, to be "the body of Christ." You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us (Scrpiture references, please...). They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny (scripture reference?), but the word of God is only concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be. We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word. A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 19, 2013, 07:06:22 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2013, 12:21:37 AM
Christ didn't put down the law, only the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who claimed to live by the law but invalidated it with their corrupt tradition just like the church and its tradition today invalidates the word of God. True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it. But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism. Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets. They don't believe in Jesus. Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom. Jesus is the only way! LAW + JESUS = SALVATION
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." (Matthew 5:17,18)
"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)
The first verse of what we've been discussing gives the subject about what Christ was speaking.
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in.
That's why the Concordant Commentary says this.
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. (What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking. Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.") All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
Christ was commissioned to Israel who was given the law by God, and, when Christ returns to rule Israel, they will still have their law because there will be some who will be condemned to death for violating the law, and their corpses will be cast into Gehenna. That is what Christ was referring to in Isaiah 66:23,24, but church doctrine has distorted the truth by intentionally changing the word of God in twelve verses to give the impression that Gehenna is "hell," a place where those who die as unbelievers will be tortured alive in fire forever.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians.
Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision:
Romans 2:25 - For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
Romans 2:26 - So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
1 Corinthians 7:19 - For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
Galatians 5:6 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9) Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?
We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law! Upon what scripture do you base this?
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
We are not even "the church." We are "the ecclesia" called out of the world, including the world religious system, the church, to be "the body of Christ." You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us (Scrpiture references, please...). They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny (scripture reference?), but the word of God is only concerned with the eons. At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be. We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word. A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Christ was commissioned only to the lost sheep of Israel.
"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
When he spoke to them, he was speaking about them not the nations.
You said, "True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it. But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism. Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets. They don't believe in Jesus. Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom. Jesus is the only way! LAW + JESUS = SALVATION"..."The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in."..."(What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking. Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")"
God gave the Jews the law to show them they couldn't overcome sin by their own works. I agree Christ is the only way.
"I am the Door. Through Me if anyone should be entering, he shall be saved, and shall be entering and coming out and will be finding pasture." (John 10:9)
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
But those are not the verses being discussed.
The scripture referenced says nothing about "the Kingdom of God," but about "life."
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."
You said, "Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision."
"7 But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision" (Galatians 2:7-9)
Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but sometimes folks make that false assumption due to confusion between the relative and the absolute.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html
Both the verses that you quoted and the ones that I quoted are true relatively speaking.
You said, "Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?" referring to "But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)"
But that was referring to "The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians."
Some Jews tried to convince the Galatians that they had to subject themselves to Hebrew law, but Paul told them they didn't because they weren't Jews. He even went so far as to curse anybody who distorted the evangel by doing so.
You said, "Upon what scripture do you base this?" referring to "We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!"
I think it's strange that you begin this post by reminding me that the law isn't the way and only Christ is, but that last question seems to imply that we should be Hebrew proselytes. When I said "We" I was referring to the ecclesia called out of all nations to be "the body of Christ." Those of us who have never been part of the nation of Israel have no reason to be subject to its law or customs for that matter. I realize some folks on this forum are interested in those customs, but we don't have to become Jews to follow Christ. That's why the risen Christ commissioned Saul outside the nation of Israel on the road to Damascus to bring the evangel to the nations who are saved in grace through faith apart from law.
21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." (Romans 3:21)
Maybe you are in Israel subject to its law, but I'm not. I'm in the U.S.A. subject to its secular law. Regarding spiritual law, this is the only one I'm subject to according to scripture.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
You said, "(Scrpiture references, please...)" referring to "You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us." and "(scripture reference?)" referring to "They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny."
All scripture, except Paul's epistles, concerns Israel and points toward the future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
It is Paul's epistles that are the evangel for today during the time in which God has paused in his dealings with Israel while the nations are being evangelized. "The church" has not replaced Israel as some assume. God is faithful to his chosen people, the Jews, and they will have their promised kingdom in Israel. But Christ chose Paul to share the evangel for the nations of salvation in grace through faith apart from law, and it is we who have been chosen for the celestial destiny. There will be some Jews who will be snatched away with the rest of "the body of Christ" when he meets us in the air, but what follows that is the destiny of Israel as written in "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]."
"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)
"6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:6,7)
You said, "We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word. A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain." referring to "At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be."
I agree. So, at the consummation of the eons, it seems that the kingdom in Israel will be on earth which is what the Jews have always looked forward to. That is the earthly destiny of Israel that I was referring to while we in "the body of Christ" will have already been snatched away for our celestial destiny.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Thank you who encouraged me to not bow out, but to continue discussion and questions. I have had a bad Parkinson's day and haven't been able to do much. I noticed several comments posted. A couple looked as long as I tend to be. (So nothing wrong with that ). I was able to give this whole thing some thought today and think there is one or two matters I want to address.
First was a feeling of gratitude for those who host this board. Thank You! A lot of time and energy and money goes into this and keeps it running. Also, my thanks to all the participators. Even within disagreement it seems evident to me that there are those who are concerned for truth,The Truth. And most everyone seems to know the Scriptures well. Another thing is, When I first discovered this Board and posted my paper I had no desire to help someone agree with me. I just wanted to share (overused Christian word) my thoughts. When people responded more than I would've figured I had in my mind to see if the article could be totally dismantled, and handed to me as a pile of goo. Some comments have given me pause, but I still believe I am mostly correct. If seems OK I'd like to resume discussion. But I might need some help in my presentation so my ideas are understood.
Thank You, Thank! You! Thank You!
Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2013, 10:12:36 PM
Christ was commissioned only to the lost sheep of Israel.
"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
When he spoke to them, he was speaking about them not the nations.
You said, "True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it. But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism. Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets. They don't believe in Jesus. Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom. Jesus is the only way! LAW + JESUS = SALVATION"..."The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in."..."(What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking. Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")"
God gave the Jews the law to show them they couldn't overcome sin by their own works. I agree Christ is the only way.
"I am the Door. Through Me if anyone should be entering, he shall be saved, and shall be entering and coming out and will be finding pasture." (John 10:9)
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
But those are not the verses being discussed.
Those verses, IMO are relevant to this discussion.
The scripture referenced says nothing about "the Kingdom of God," but about "life."
Is that not life, to enter into the Kingdom of God?
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."
You said, "Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision."
"7 But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision" (Galatians 2:7-9)
The distinction here is Jew vs. gentile. They are still all just humans. I do not see a different set of theology for the Jews than for the gentiles. These people were segregated and it was necessary for them to send some to the Jews and some to the gentiles to spread the gospel message - which is for ALL people.
Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but sometimes folks make that false assumption due to confusion between the relative and the absolute.(Huh?)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html
Both the verses that you quoted and the ones that I quoted are true relatively speaking.
All scripture is true - period. Not just true in a relative sense.
You said, "Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?" referring to "But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)"
But that was referring to "The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians."
Are Jews then not saved by grace through faith?
Some Jews tried to convince the Galatians that they had to subject themselves to Hebrew law, but Paul told them they didn't because they weren't Jews. He even went so far as to curse anybody who distorted the evangel by doing so.
You said, "Upon what scripture do you base this?" referring to "We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!"
I think it's strange that you begin this post by reminding me that the law isn't the way and only Christ is, but that last question seems to imply that we should be Hebrew proselytes. I am not implying that. When I said "We" I was referring to the ecclesia called out of all nations to be "the body of Christ." Those of us who have never been part of the nation of Israel have no reason to be subject to its law or customs for that matter. I realize some folks on this forum are interested in those customs, but we don't have to become Jews to follow Christ. Has someone suggested that? That's why the risen Christ commissioned Saul outside the nation of Israel on the road to Damascus to bring the evangel to the nations who are saved in grace through faith apart from law.
21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." (Romans 3:21)
Maybe you are in Israel subject to its law, but I'm not. I'm in the U.S.A. subject to its secular law. Regarding spiritual law, this is the only one I'm subject to according to scripture. So now you are subject to the law? You weren't a minute ago. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought that up. Who are Israel? Historians tell us that they were dispersed after their captivity in Assyria. They never returned, but migrated north and west, mostly into Europe. From whom are we Americans descended? Some historians believe that most European Americans are descended, in part, from Israel. So now are we subject to the law? How much Israelite heredity do I have to have to be subject to the law?
Consider this scripture:
Romans 11:11-24
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
You see it really does not matter whether you are of the circumcised or the uncircumcised. This grafting makes us all a part of Israel - THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, NOT THE NATIONALITY. We are grafted in on the basis of belief (by grace through faith).
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
You said, "(Scrpiture references, please...)" referring to "You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us." and "(scripture reference?)" referring to "They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny."
No, I want to know what scripture you are basing your belief upon.
All scripture, except Paul's epistles, concerns Israel and points toward the future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
It is Paul's epistles that are the evangel for today during the time in which God has paused in his dealings with Israel while the nations are being evangelized. "The church" has not replaced Israel as some assume. I don't use the word "church" anymore. I use the word "ecclesia." The ecclesia does not replace Israel. The ecclesia is the body of like-Christ-minded believers, whether or Israelite descent or not. God is faithful to his chosen people, the Jews, and they will have their promised kingdom in Israel. But Christ chose Paul to share the evangel for the nations of salvation in grace through faith apart from law, and it is we who have been chosen for the celestial destiny. There will be some Jews who will be snatched away with the rest of "the body of Christ" when he meets us in the air, but what follows that is the destiny of Israel as written in "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]."
"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)
That was Paul speaking. He was descended from Israel (the Israel of before the division of the kingdoms, to whom the law was given).
"6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:6,7)
You said, "We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word. A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain." referring to "At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be."
I agree. So, at the consummation of the eons, it seems that the kingdom in Israel will be on earth which is what the Jews have always looked forward to. That is the earthly destiny of Israel that I was referring to while we in "the body of Christ" will have already been snatched away for our celestial destiny.
Remember, there are three Israels: (1) the biblical Israelites to whom the law was given, (2) the spiritual Israel, the olive tree into which all believing gentiles are grafted, and (3) the modern political entity, the country of Israel, which is made up of a hodgepodge of eastern and European peoples, which is not relevant to this discussion.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 12:12:56 AM
Thank you who encouraged me to not bow out, but to continue discussion and questions. I have had a bad Parkinson's day and haven't been able to do much. I noticed several comments posted. A couple looked as long as I tend to be. (So nothing wrong with that ). I was able to give this whole thing some thought today and think there is one or two matters I want to address.
First was a feeling of gratitude for those who host this board. Thank You! A lot of time and energy and money goes into this and keeps it running. Also, my thanks to all the participators. Even within disagreement it seems evident to me that there are those who are concerned for truth,The Truth. And most everyone seems to know the Scriptures well. Another thing is, When I first discovered this Board and posted my paper I had no desire to help someone agree with me. I just wanted to share (overused Christian word) my thoughts. When people responded more than I would've figured I had in my mind to see if the article could be totally dismantled, and handed to me as a pile of goo. Some comments have given me pause, but I still believe I am mostly correct. If seems OK I'd like to resume discussion. But I might need some help in my presentation so my ideas are understood.
Thank You, Thank! You! Thank You!
Hey man, you're good with us! :thumbsup:
I've read the ongoing discussion, but it is quite a bit of info. Can someone give me the reader's digest version?
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 01:03:11 AM
I've read the ongoing discussion, but it is quite a bit of info. Can someone give me the reader's digest version?
Yeah, here it is.
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 20, 2013, 12:39:25 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2013, 10:12:36 PM
Christ was commissioned only to the lost sheep of Israel.
"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
When he spoke to them, he was speaking about them not the nations.
You said, "True, the Christ did not put down the law - he fulfilled it. But one does not enter into the Kingdom of God through Judaism. Judaism is the religion built by man, based on the law and the prophets. They don't believe in Jesus. Their religion is not going to serve as a gate of door for anyone to enter the Kingdom. Jesus is the only way! LAW + JESUS = SALVATION"..."The law and the prophets encourages good works, but no man can work his way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the only way, the gate, the door, the way in."..."(What's the difference? It is stated that way because it is an integral part of the metaphor Jesus was speaking. Had he been speaking in plain language instead of metaphor, then he would have said "few find life.")"
God gave the Jews the law to show them they couldn't overcome sin by their own works. I agree Christ is the only way.
"I am the Door. Through Me if anyone should be entering, he shall be saved, and shall be entering and coming out and will be finding pasture." (John 10:9)
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
But those are not the verses being discussed.
Those verses, IMO are relevant to this discussion.
The scripture referenced says nothing about "the Kingdom of God," but about "life."
Is that not life, to enter into the Kingdom of God?
"12 All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
14 Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it." (Matthew 7:12-14)
"12 Compare Lu.6:31.
12 To do as we would be done by is an ethical standard far above the world's attainment, yet far beneath the monitions of grace. The law and the prophets demand compliance with this code, yet supply no power to carry it out. Grace gives the ability, yet makes no demands, but rather entreats us to do as we have been done by in our dealings with God, rather than man.
13-14 Compare Lu.13:24.
13 The crowds enter a city by the broad road which passes through the wide gate. The narrow side-paths leading to a narrow gateway in some retired corner were seldom used and were always shut in the daytime and locked at night. Few find or use these paths. This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it. All life is God's gift and can never be made by man, either in the sphere of religion or of science." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 19)
"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."
You said, "Paul said there was no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision."
"7 But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),
9 and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision" (Galatians 2:7-9)
The distinction here is Jew vs. gentile. They are still all just humans. I do not see a different set of theology for the Jews than for the gentiles. These people were segregated and it was necessary for them to send some to the Jews and some to the gentiles to spread the gospel message - which is for ALL people.
Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but sometimes folks make that false assumption due to confusion between the relative and the absolute.(Huh?)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html
Both the verses that you quoted and the ones that I quoted are true relatively speaking.
All scripture is true - period. Not just true in a relative sense.
You said, "Has someone here presented a different gospel message from what Paul had preached?" referring to "But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:8,9)"
But that was referring to "The risen Christ commissioned Saul on the road to Damascus outside Israel to bring the evangel of the Uncircumcision to the nations which is salvation in grace through faith apart from Hebrew law. It is only because the church has intentionally confused the two distinct evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that church folks believe the church has replaced Israel and is subject to its law. That is the distorted evangel that Paul cursed in Galatians."
Are Jews then not saved by grace through faith?
Some Jews tried to convince the Galatians that they had to subject themselves to Hebrew law, but Paul told them they didn't because they weren't Jews. He even went so far as to curse anybody who distorted the evangel by doing so.
You said, "Upon what scripture do you base this?" referring to "We are not Israel, and we are not subject to its law!"
I think it's strange that you begin this post by reminding me that the law isn't the way and only Christ is, but that last question seems to imply that we should be Hebrew proselytes. I am not implying that. When I said "We" I was referring to the ecclesia called out of all nations to be "the body of Christ." Those of us who have never been part of the nation of Israel have no reason to be subject to its law or customs for that matter. I realize some folks on this forum are interested in those customs, but we don't have to become Jews to follow Christ. Has someone suggested that? That's why the risen Christ commissioned Saul outside the nation of Israel on the road to Damascus to bring the evangel to the nations who are saved in grace through faith apart from law.
21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),
22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." (Romans 3:21)
Maybe you are in Israel subject to its law, but I'm not. I'm in the U.S.A. subject to its secular law. Regarding spiritual law, this is the only one I'm subject to according to scripture. So now you are subject to the law? You weren't a minute ago. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought that up. Who are Israel? Historians tell us that they were dispersed after their captivity in Assyria. They never returned, but migrated north and west, mostly into Europe. From whom are we Americans descended? Some historians believe that most European Americans are descended, in part, from Israel. So now are we subject to the law? How much Israelite heredity do I have to have to be subject to the law?
Consider this scripture:
Romans 11:11-24
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[c] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
You see it really does not matter whether you are of the circumcised or the uncircumcised. This grafting makes us all a part of Israel - THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, NOT THE NATIONALITY. We are grafted in on the basis of belief (by grace through faith).
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
You said, "(Scrpiture references, please...)" referring to "You may be interested in Hebrew culture and history, but the word of God says Israel has a different destiny than us." and "(scripture reference?)" referring to "They will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ while we have a "celestial" destiny."
No, I want to know what scripture you are basing your belief upon.
All scripture, except Paul's epistles, concerns Israel and points toward the future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
It is Paul's epistles that are the evangel for today during the time in which God has paused in his dealings with Israel while the nations are being evangelized. "The church" has not replaced Israel as some assume. I don't use the word "church" anymore. I use the word "ecclesia." The ecclesia does not replace Israel. The ecclesia is the body of like-Christ-minded believers, whether or Israelite descent or not. God is faithful to his chosen people, the Jews, and they will have their promised kingdom in Israel. But Christ chose Paul to share the evangel for the nations of salvation in grace through faith apart from law, and it is we who have been chosen for the celestial destiny. There will be some Jews who will be snatched away with the rest of "the body of Christ" when he meets us in the air, but what follows that is the destiny of Israel as written in "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]."
"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)
That was Paul speaking. He was descended from Israel (the Israel of before the division of the kingdoms, to whom the law was given).
"6 and rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:6,7)
You said, "We know that when we are raised (resurrected) we will be given immortality, so we know we will live forever, in the true sense of the word. A new heaven and earth will be prepared, and it will always be before Yahweh. Isaiah 66.22 - For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain." referring to "At the consummation of the eons, we are told that all will be "vivified" and God will be "all in all," but no more information is given about who will be where. It seems that we must trust God about that to do the best thing for us whatever that may be."
I agree. So, at the consummation of the eons, it seems that the kingdom in Israel will be on earth which is what the Jews have always looked forward to. That is the earthly destiny of Israel that I was referring to while we in "the body of Christ" will have already been snatched away for our celestial destiny.
Remember, there are three Israels: (1) the biblical Israelites to whom the law was given, (2) the spiritual Israel, the olive tree into which all believing gentiles are grafted, and (3) the modern political entity, the country of Israel, which is made up of a hodgepodge of eastern and European peoples, which is not relevant to this discussion.
I have provided you with various scriptures to support my perspective.
I agree with this.
"in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation." (Ephesians 3:5-7)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/RefuseTheRefuse.html
Maybe we should let the brother who started this thread continue his quest now.
Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.
While I am waiting I'll go ahead .
Matt 7:12 All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.
V. 13 Go in by the narrow door; for wide is the door and open is the way which goes to destruction and great numbers go in by it.
V. 14 for narrow is the door and hard the road to life and only a small number
make discovery of it.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Feel free to stop me at anytime if you need me to be clearer, or if I am going around in circles. One step at a time. Is Jesus part of these 4 verses?
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 01:55:22 AM
Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.
Brother, this is your thread. Go for it. You don't need to yield to diversions. Anything off topic can be dealt with in another thread.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 02:12:28 AM
While I am waiting I'll go ahead .
Matt 7:12 All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets.
V. 13 Go in by the narrow door; for wide is the door and open is the way which goes to destruction and great numbers go in by it.
V. 14 for narrow is the door and hard the road to life and only a small number
make discovery of it.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Feel free to stop me at anytime if you need me to be clearer, or if I am going around in circles. One step at a time. Is Jesus part of these 4 verses?
Jesus is speaking.
Hi;
Jesus indeed states that He is THE way, THE truth and THE life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME."
Also states " No man comes unless the Father calls him." [ John 6;44]
Many strive to enter through Christ and claim they come in His authority.
Christ says that many will cast out demons in His name and yet He says I NEVER knew them.
All of this seems to highlight that no personal effort should be in the equation.
Does that make us useless?
IMO no: highlights that our position is through the work of Christ.
Many do not like this because seems to make this life pointless.
I like the concept that we are like princes through the work of Christ. A young prince has to learn the role and responsibility of his position while he is growing up. He will make many mistakes and will be lovingly corrected.
When he learns and comes of age he has the full authority and is sent to work for the king as if he indeed himself is king.
He works to please his father the king and has the blessings of the kingdom.
Now picture the magnitude of the kingdom of heaven as being greater than the eye/telescope or any other device can see.
The spiritual coming realm is the one that currently controls all aspects of the physical in which we now live.
We are to be above angels as sons/daughters of the Living God.
This, to me, highlights why we have to be equal in value and work out in a basis of love and humility so that we do not struggle against each other but work for the common good.
Hence we ALL come through Christ so that no-one can boast.
Hope this all helps; we are to be raised in glory.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 18, 2013, 10:09:54 PM
Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
OK. Perhaps I am not understanding what Fortytworc is saying in his essay. So given the verses quoted above in red, I decided to do the same thing as was done in the essay attached to the OP - substitute. Substitution is a valuable tool by which we can sometimes gain a better perspective on the meaning of the written word. Since it is averred that the metaphorical gate/door is Judaism, I am going to substitute the phrases "the narrow gate" and "the narrow door" with the word "Judaism," in blue below.
Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] 13 "Enter by Judaism. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Luke 13:24 [ESV] "Strive to enter through Judaism. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
My question is this:
Since Judaism was the religion of the Pharisees, as well as Jews today - who did not then and still today do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, then why would Jesus tell the people to enter through Judaism?
I will try to answer this.It had crossed my mind earlier today.
I think we tend to overlay our current knowlege of Scripture onto areas where it doesn't really belong. I'll use Law not Judaism. This might be one of those places.We have the benefit of looking back at things with current knowlege, especially Paul's writings. Jesus told them to enter by the Law because Israel was still under that taskmaster at that time.We know, with hindsight that salvation never was earned, but the Jews were to practice the law even while having faith which would be counted as rightiousness.
Another example of this is found here : Matt 19:16 Now someone came up to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?"
Matt 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matt 19:18 "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Matt 19:19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 19:20 The young man said to him, "I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. What do I still lack?"
Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matt 19:22 But when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he was very rich.
I have always been told the rich man asked the wrong question. He should've asked "how should I be"? But he was a Jew and Jesus didn't tell him to leave the law.He most likely would not have said anything else to the young man except the man said he had followed the whole law since he was a child. Then Jesus told him ....Follow Me if you want to be perfect.
Jesus told the Religious leaders: Luke 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of your mint, rue, and every herb, yet you neglect justice and love for God! But you should have done these things without neglecting the others." He told the people,
Matt 5:20 For I say to you, That unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Only Israel was given the Law. The rest of the world would later be blessed by Israel, but the world was not bound by the Law.The Law was narrow, hard to follow, and hard to find.
I understand what you're saying, and I include part of the quote from the Concordant Commentary already submitted.
"This is not an illustration of the gospel, but of the law. It represents an effort to attain life. It is not stated that few find life, but few find the path to it."
I've got to stop. My Parkinson's is making it next to impossible to type. See everybody later
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 01:55:22 AM
Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.
That's the way things are on this forum. Your thread actually did quite well. Some go off topic in the 1st reply :winkgrin:
That can be irritating but not so unexpected because all things are connected.
So know it's not your topic but the kind of forum this is. Some are former Catholics, Jehova witnesses, Calvinists, you name it. Not a group of people from a certain denomination that are trained to think exactly alike.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 06:51:13 AM
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 01:55:22 AM
Thank you, but maybe I should step aside. If the discussion has taken a turn in another direction, or if you think it has played itself out, or everyone is up to their necks with this topic I can roll with that.
That's the way things are on this forum. Your thread actually did quite well. Some go off topic in the 1st reply :winkgrin:
That can be irritating but not so unexpected because all things are connected.
So know it's not your topic but the kind of forum this is. Some are former Catholics, Jehova witnesses, Calvinists, you name it. Not a group of people from a certain denomination that are trained to think exactly alike.
That's probably a good thing. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Tom on September 20, 2013, 01:46:57 AM
I have provided you with various scriptures to support my perspective.
IMO, your scriptures refs don't support all you're saying.
I agree with this.
You agree with what?
"in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation." (Ephesians 3:5-7)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GeneralExpositions/RefuseTheRefuse.html
Maybe we should let the brother who started this thread continue his quest now.
He is most welcome to jump in at any time.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 03:34:10 AM
I will try to answer this.It had crossed my mind earlier today.
I think we tend to overlay our current knowlege of Scripture onto areas where it doesn't really belong. I'll use Law not Judaism. This might be one of those places.We have the benefit of looking back at things with current knowlege, especially Paul's writings. Jesus told them to enter by the Law because Israel was still under that taskmaster at that time. So, all this time you actually meant "law," not "Judaism?" We know, with hindsight that salvation never was earned, but the Jews were to practice the law even while having faith which would be counted as rightiousness. Yes. Jesus fulfilled the law's requirement of penalty for sin at his death. But since then, we (whether Jewish, gentiles, Greek, or of one of the lost tribes) are no longer required to keep the law as they were before Jesus' death. Since Jesus' death, what we are required to keep is the essence, or summation of the law - Love and treat your neighbor as you would yourself.
Another example of this is found here : Matt 19:16 Now someone came up to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?"
Matt 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matt 19:18 "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Matt 19:19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 19:20 The young man said to him, "I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. What do I still lack?"
Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matt 19:22 But when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he was very rich.
I have always been told the rich man asked the wrong question. He should've asked "how should I be"? But he was a Jew and Jesus didn't tell him to leave the law.He most likely would not have said anything else to the young man except the man said he had followed the whole law since he was a child. Then Jesus told him ....Follow Me if you want to be perfect.
Jesus told the Religious leaders: Luke 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of your mint, rue, and every herb, yet you neglect justice and love for God! But you should have done these things without neglecting the others." He told the people,
Matt 5:20 For I say to you, That unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (they were not keeping the essence of the law - in other words, they missed the whole point!), you shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Only Israel was given the Law. The rest of the world would later be blessed by Israel, but the world was not bound by the Law. No one, Jew or gentile, is bound by the law since Jesus fulfilled it - Jesus freed us from it - all of us! The Law was narrow, hard to follow, and hard to find. How was the law hard to find if Jesus' day? The religious system was cramming it down their throats ALL THE TIME. And, was is really narrow? From what I have seen in the OT, it was extremely broad and complex! If anything, the law was the broad gate, IMO.
Above all, remember these equations:
LAW = DEATH
LAW + JESUS = LIFE
JESUS - LAW = LIFE
I have the feeling it's closely connected to:
The Rich Young Ruler
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words [a]he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
That person found the gate but could not enter because he didn't want to give all he had away.
The parable of the needle and the camel has the same meaning. Camel is a wrong translation. It should be rope. The rope doesn't fit through the eye of the needle until it has become a thin thread by removing all excess threads (the money of the young man)
So the narrow gate may also be about leaving things behind. Money, manmade laws etc.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 06:30:24 PM
I have the feeling it's closely connected to:
The Rich Young Ruler
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words [a]he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
That person found the gate but could not enter because he didn't want to give all he had away.
The parable of the needle and the camel has the same meaning. Camel is a wrong translation. It should be rope. The rope doesn't fit through the eye of the needle until it has become a thin thread by removing all excess threads (the money of the young man)
So the narrow gate may also be about leaving things behind. Money, manmade laws etc.
LIKE
I may be reading you guys wrong but it looks like we may at least agree that whatever the narrow way, hard to find and hard to follow path was it was not Jesus. Is that accurate?
fortytworc, I think the most safe conclusion is that we don't know. :laughing7:
I'm writing down thought as discussion points. I give my thoughts a good possibility to be true but most certainly won't say I'm convinced.
Quoteit was not Jesus. Is that accurate?
To answer your question more directly: Yes Jesus is the way.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
But as so often we can't take that literally. Jesus isn't a road neither is He a gate or a lamb. He's normal looking person. Not an animal (lamb) or a thing (road, gate).
Neither is He the truth; which is a concept. He is however the ultimate Teacher and Follower of the truth.
And that symbolic meaning opens some possibities. "I am the way" could mean "What I teach will save you". Lots of things God say are laws/commands. Looking at it that way it could be law related because following God's law certainly is a big part of being saved.
So I again want to point to my replies #21 and #23
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 09:10:24 PM
fortytworc, I think the most safe conclusion is that we don't know. :laughing7:
I'm writing down thought as discussion points. I give my thoughts a good possibility to be true but most certainly won't say I'm convinced.
Quoteit was not Jesus. Is that accurate?
To answer your question more directly: Yes Jesus is the way.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
But as so often we can't take that literally. Jesus isn't a road neither is He a gate or a lamb. He's normal looking person. Not an animal (lamb) or a thing (road, gate).
Neither is He the truth; which is a concept. He is however the ultimate Teacher and Follower of the truth.
And that symbolic meaning opens some possibities. "I am the way" could mean "What I teach will save you". Lots of things God say are laws/commands. Looking at it that way it could be law related because following God's law certainly is a big part of being saved.
So I again want to point to my replies #21 and #23
Well said Whitewings :gimmefive:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
For me this has been an excellent discussion. Everyone has expressed goodness , patience, and a desire to seek Truth as best we can together on this side of forever. My guess would be that many come from a background of instuction in the Scriptures that almost (if not outright) demanded blind obedience and acceptance of the already established doctrines. And many of them were good and up to this point correct and profitable. Just don't get outside the box. Don't ask too many questions. The old wineskins were still around for a reason. With age came wisdom which was untouchable. Untouchable meant uninstructable. Having run past races with speed and flexability the thought of a challenge has been scoffed at. No thought has been given to the possibilty of becoming stiff, inflexable, winded. Indeed much of earlier teaching needs to be held onto. The tendency has been that the old rejects the new outright as too young to know anything worth attention. The new scoffs at the old as totally senile and out of touch. If we can retain the good of the old and embrace the new with just enough caution to let truth in and keep error out maybe we can run the race together. Helping each other with the cooperation of a relay race where working together brings the whole team victory, and all are recognized rather than winning a 100 yard dash which recognizes one winner. ( I realize the analogy breaks down here as the dash winner certainly contributes to the overal team victory). The short of it is: This has been stretching and good for me. A good experience. I still want any input that anyone has. As far as I am concerned this thead is open ended for at least my edification, and I hope others.
Quote from: fortytworc on September 20, 2013, 08:23:14 PM
I may be reading you guys wrong but it looks like we may at least agree that whatever the narrow way, hard to find and hard to follow path was it was not Jesus. Is that accurate?
No. It is
not accurate to say that we agree that Jesus is the metaphorical gate or door of Matthew 7.14 and Luke 13.24. I made it
clear in my replies that I
did not agree that the narrow gate/door is Judaism (or the law). I made it clear that I believe
JESUS is the gate. SEE MY REPLY BELOW.
My post, post #35:
QuoteI'm going to be bold and disagree with you, with all due respect and humility. I do not believe Jesus was saying that Judaism was the narrow gate. Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." A gate is a way in, like a door, a passageway. Jesus said "through me," such as one might pass "through" a gate. There was a narrow gate, and a broad gate. One was narrow, symbolizing a low traffic count. The other was broad, symbolizing that most will use it instead. IMO, this is a metaphor symbolizing how mankind will come to the Father - a few will find the Jesus gate, but most will go through the other way, the lake of fire.
Now there does seem to be a contradiction between these two passages of scripture:
Mat 7.12-14 - "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
AND
Mat 11:30 - "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
HOWEVER, IMO:
Upon further study, these passages are used in different contexts. The gate passage is used to indicate the quantities of people who will enter each gate. The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up. The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers. And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will. This difficulty has nothing to do with the yoke passage. The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees). The yoke is the guiding component of the plowing outfit used on oxen. Jesus audience was very familiar with oxen, plows, yokes, and beasts of burden. They understood that Jesus was talking about bearing a heavy burden of Pharisee rules, and they longed to lighten that burden.
jbert,
Could you agree that the 10 commandments are the gate?
Or any other set of laws that are God given and not butchered by mankind?
jbb: OK .Glad I asked just to make sure. Thanks
Not trying to beat a dead horse (or any animal dead or alive), but I'm still wanting someone to decisively blow my ship out of the water.
I have been working on trying to condense and clarify what I have been attempting to propose. Here goes:
Consider that the narrow gate and door is the Law.
Why?
1.) In Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:12-14 Jesus tells people to strive to enter in at the narrow gate or door which leads to life.
2.) To strive means to work very hard.
3.) We are saved by grace through faith and not by works.
4.) If Jesus was that narrow gate or door He would not tell anyone to work very hard to enter by it.
Therefore:
5.) The narrow gate is not Jesus.
Thus my proposal that the narrow gate is the Law.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/'is-jesus-the-narrow-way'-a-small-step-toward-christian-universalism/msg163453/#msg163453
That's my view. So I think the gate is the law. But a different law as you think it is.
That's the only way I can reconcile all verses.
The battle is for your Mind .
The battle is for the readers mind.
How well does your mind know you?
How well does your mind know Jesus?
The difference by definition is the definition
of wide and narrow.
When you have all the knowledge and all the understanding
that you can possibly have Love is still a mystery.
Yet everyone is aware of true Love and respond to it naturally.
The spirit leads where we do not know .
it was anarrow gate..fulfilling the law..as Jesus did...He sweat blood fulfilling it.[loveof God and
brother as himself] he willingly laid his life down.Hedidthe 'worksofthe Father'as the armofsalvation
of God.
striving against sin to the extent of spilling your blood..to do the will of God.....
being perfected by learning obediance through suffering..
Now by His knowledge my servant willjustify many[thse many that took the wide path
todestruction.[all in Adam that die.].the lost He shall bring bck.. those whodidnotfind the narrow
way.Father forgive them..theyknow NOTwhat theydo.sheep without a shepherd to lead them in
the way....surely the way of obediance ..IS A ROAD LESS TRAVELED...........
IF THE rOYAL LAW IS THE GATE...THAT LEADS US TO CHRIST. THEN WE HAVECOME UNTO OUR
SHEPHERD..ANDHE SHALL LEAD US OUT ONE BY ONE..IN A WAY WE HAVE NOT GONE BEFORE
John10;7I am the door o f the sheep .He who give His life up for us..is thetrueshepherd
we have befre us an open door of tender compassion in Christ...through that door..obediance
unto death...all those who died inAdam..shall receive thefreegiftof mercy andgrace and eternal
life.
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life. Jesus is the narrow gate.
Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted. The law does not lead to life.
Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life. Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."
Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life. Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.
Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.
Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose? Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us! He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life? By the law? Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?
Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed. Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life, so righteousness is not by the law. Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive. It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life. Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect. Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 24, 2013, 10:51:19 PM
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life. Jesus is the narrow gate.
Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted. The law does not lead to life.
Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life. Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."
Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life. Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.
Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.
Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose? Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us! He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life? By the law? Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?
Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed. Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life, so righteousness is not by the law. Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive. It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life. Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect. Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.
jbertonbounds, thank you, so much, for the scriptures and for your comments after each scripture. So very helpful to me personally as I am working diligently on a few ongoing projects and this post saves me much time in searching... I've read/printed/reread it a few times and find something NEW each time I read it.
Just recently I read a definition of the word "hope" as used in the scriptures... really like it. Hope=desire combined with expectation. I'll post the entire article later next week, it's entitled "Believing in Your Hope" by Ray Prinzing... just wanted to thank you today for a wonderful post. God's richest blessings on all your efforts to serve Him... Irene (my real name!!)
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 24, 2013, 10:51:19 PM
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
The key of that verse is "works of the law" not the law itself.
Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life. Jesus is the narrow gate.
The law also made Jesus' saving possible. Jesus wasn't overturning the law. The law is a schoolmaster.
Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted. The law does not lead to life.
See above plus note that sin was present.
Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life. Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.
See above
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."
God personally gave that law to Moses. It's can't be untrue. The main difference is that nobody but Jesus was to correctly interpreted that Law.
Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life. Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.
Take note that a whole load of human made laws were added
Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.
See previous answer.
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.
But Jesus still preached law. Commandment to obey God and love your neighbor are two of them. He wasn't big of theft and murder either.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.
Note the law was weakened by the flesh. Meaning hum,ans messed it up.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.
For sure that verse isn't about lawlessness. So there still are laws.
Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.
I already answered that one
Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose? Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us! He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life? By the law? Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?
Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed. Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life,
The law was not contrary God's promises (restoration/life)
so righteousness is not by the law. Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive. It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life. Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect. Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.
Skipped a few verses jbert :winkgrin:
But I think that doesn't matter for what I'm trying to prove.
a]
God gave the law. Did God gave death?
b]
Read the Faith, works and Grace thread. Especially the works part. It's of great importance in several verses you quoted.
c]
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
So my main point is that none of your verses are wrong. Quite obvious because they are from the Bible. But imo your interpretation is wrong. The main issue is not differentiating between the origin of the various laws and the types of works.
:gimmefive:
Quote from: fortytworc on September 24, 2013, 08:04:28 PM
Not trying to beat a dead horse (or any animal dead or alive), but I'm still wanting someone to decisively blow my ship out of the water.
I have been working on trying to condense and clarify what I have been attempting to propose. Here goes:
Consider that the narrow gate and door is the Law.
Why?
1.) In Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:12-14 Jesus tells people to strive to enter in at the narrow gate or door which leads to life.
2.) To strive means to work very hard..) We are sharder y grace through faith and not by works.
4.) If Jesus was that narrow gate or door He would not tell anyone to work very hard to enter by it.
Therefore:
5.) The narrow gate is not Jesus.
Thus my proposal that the narrow gate is the Law.
A little late to this party, but Bette is my understanding.
Jesus said to become as little children for a reason. The love without fear, trust without question and faith as solid as rock. Children have this towards their early patents, very few adults have the same towards their heavenly Father.
The gate isn't narrow. Just their love, trust and faith.
Prob 3:5 Lean not unto your understanding......
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 24, 2013, 08:13:03 PM
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/'is-jesus-the-narrow-way'-a-small-step-toward-christian-universalism/msg163453/#msg163453
That's my view. So I think the gate is the law. But a different law as you think it is.
That's the only way I can reconcile all verses.
Thank you WW
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 24, 2013, 10:51:19 PM
Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life. Jesus is the narrow gate.
Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted. The law does not lead to life.
Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life. Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."
Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life. Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.
Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.
Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose? Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us! He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life? By the law? Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?
Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed. Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life, so righteousness is not by the law. Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive. It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life. Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect. Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.
jbert
Thank you so much. Very thorough cocerning the law. This took some time and I'll keep it for future use. Still not sure on this point: If Jesus is the Narrow Gate what is the "strive to enter"? I very much appreciate your time and effort.
Strive to enter is imo the difference between knowing and doing.
Matthew 19:16-26
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 Then he *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be [a]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
The young ruler found the gate. Jesus told him exactly what to do. Give all his stuff away. He failed to enter because he couldnt let go of his stuff.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 02:04:32 AM
Skipped a few verses jbert :winkgrin:
I purposely skipped some of the verses containing the phrase "the law" because they did not pertain to this discussion.
But I think that doesn't matter for what I'm trying to prove.
a]
God gave the law. Did God gave death?
YES. Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...
b]
Read the Faith, works and Grace thread. Especially the works part. It's of great importance in several verses you quoted.
c]
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
The answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic! Jesus said in Mat 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." You cannot come into the kingdom of heaven through the law alone, but through Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life! Living out the love of Jesus IS the essence of the law, which Jesus fulfilled by becoming the sacrifice for sin that the law requires. The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus. John 14:6 - "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." "Through me" - as in "through the narrow gate that leads to life." Not "through the law." The law makes us aware of sin, then condemns us to death. It alone does not lead to life. The law in itself leads to death! It is not the narrow gate.
So my main point is that none of your verses are wrong. Quite obvious because they are from the Bible. But imo your interpretation is wrong. The main issue is not differentiating between the origin of the various laws and the types of works.
I am speaking of "the law," not "the origin of the various laws and the types of works," since that is the topic of this whole discussion (except that it started out as "Judaism", then halfway through the discussion, it was changed to "the law").
:gimmefive:
First I want to correct a mistake
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is
no yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
QuoteThe answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!
Please give me an example.
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 25, 2013, 05:24:13 PM
So my main point is that none of your verses are wrong. Quite obvious because they are from the Bible. But imo your interpretation is wrong. The main issue is not differentiating between the origin of the various laws and the types of works.
I am speaking of "the law," not "the origin of the various laws and the types of works," since that is the topic of this whole discussion (except that it started out as "Judaism", then halfway through the discussion, it was changed to "the law").
Without discussing the origin of the law this whole discussion becomes useless. Law and works cannot be seen separately.
Judadism is the/a law too. Truckloads of them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
Fulfilled means completed. The Law is now whole, covering both the physical as well as the spiritual.Jesus taught in Spirit and is through the Spirit that he teaches still. This is why the ten commandments were reduced to only two.
Farher is love and the spiritual laws are instructions on how to become love.
Love is EVERYTHING!!!
LOVE Julie :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 25, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
Fulfilled means completed.
Nope try again :banana:
It simply means "explained correctly".
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136779/#msg136779
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:53:08 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 25, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
Fulfilled means completed.
Nope try again :banana:
It simply means "explained correctly".
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136779/#msg136779
Okay if Christ did not complete (fulfill) the law then please provide full and complete details of the additional laws thatyou seem privy too.
You are mistaken WW, Christ bought the laws to actuallity, meaning he actualized the laws. No more laws are needed because all Laws are now Christ and Christ is the pathway to Father, there is no other requirement, no other law.
:HeartThrob:
Christ Loves Father so completely they are as one. Christ Jesus also loves his brothers and sisters utterly and completely just as he does himself. He has fulfilled the requirements of the law Completely. We are to do the same.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:30:00 PM
First I want to correct a mistake
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
QuoteThe answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!
Please give me an example.
Well your points did not make sense because of the mistake you just corrected. But consider these passages:
Galatians 5:16-24 - 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are redeemed, therefore, not under the law. To be "under the law" is to be condemned. Believers are redeemed by Jesus, not the law. The law condemns us - whether "under the law" or not. Condemns us? Yes. No problem, though. Jesus redeemed us!
and Galatians 4:4-6 - 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
and Romans 3:21-25 - 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
All people, whether "under the law" or not, fall short of God's glory, and are condemned by the law because the law requires the death penalty for sin. But all are redeemed by Jesus' sacrifice.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 25, 2013, 06:29:30 PM
Okay if Christ did not complete (fulfill) the law then please provide full and complete details of the additional laws thatyou seem privy too.
There were 2 sets of laws in Jesus' time. The written law that came directly from God on Mt. Sinai and through His prophets.
Man added the oral laws. They were called oral laws because they weren't written down until long after Jesus died.
The oral laws were also called a "hedge". More laws were added to prevent breaking God's law. So if the man made law was accidently broken then God's law usually was not. A made up example. God says it's forbidden to lift more than 40 pounds on Sabbath day. Man turned that into 20 pounds just in case the 40 pounds were accidentally not measured well enough and were 1 gram to heavy. Silly example but it's clear I think. That whole oral law went way overboard. Law upon law upon law was added.
It became unlivable. Even today I must add. A while back a Jew went to court because he was fined because he wasn't able to show his ID. His defense was he wasn't allowed to work on Sabbath and carry an ID because that's work.
So there were 2 sets of laws. To complicate things even more both together often were simply called "the law".
Jesus hinted to the above with "It is written", "You heard is said", "The prophets" etc.
The proof all the laws were not done away is very simple.
Is, according to Jesus, murder, adultary or blasphemy forbidden? If one of them is answered with yes then laws still exist.
QuoteYou are mistaken WW,
I really doubt that.
QuoteChrist bought the laws to actuallity, meaning he actualized the laws.
That has nothing to do with fulfil. Plus not one jot will pass away. and yet many Christians seem to believe a huge part of the OT is done away.
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:
Ok, read and understood your post jbert. I accept the verses clearly stating "law". I don't think they are translation errors etc.
For the rest I would point to the answer I moments ago wrote to Julie. Does that explain my view clearly enough?
:friendstu:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws? (These are your words.)
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem. Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death. He paid the debt by his death on the cross.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 25, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
Fulfilled means completed. The Law is now whole, covering both the physical as well as the spiritual.Jesus taught in Spirit and is through the Spirit that he teaches still. This is why the ten commandments were reduced to only two.
Farher is love and the spiritual laws are instructions on how to become love.
Love is EVERYTHING!!!
LOVE Julie :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
LIKE
Quote
WhiteWings wrote......
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:
WhiteWings please understand that LOVE overrides all laws and all sins. There is simply not a single sin no matter howsmall that will remain hidden in LOVE. You see :HeartThrob: Love exposes everything in a pure light, absolutely EVERYTHING that is not PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is a sin.
Jesus was/is sinless because their was no sin in him, only LOVE. He was incapable of sinning, because of his live for Father.
Please look at the whole picture, and see that Jesus fullfilled the Law completely.
Every sin is now exposed/condemned by Love and not law.
I hope this helps you understand.
Love Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:30:00 PM
First I want to correct a mistake
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
QuoteThe answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!
Please give me an example.
- If the answer is yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
Those you do not walk in faith are afraid that if Jesus let those other heathens walk in faith that they would Rape and Murder and Steal .
The spirits reveal themselves.
I would like to and may-be I will start a thread
where Paul (after his Damascus experience) is posting about Faith.
Then responding to his posts would be James
(the brother of Jesus according to the flesh the James that is not an apostle)
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 25, 2013, 07:42:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws? (These are your words.)
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem. Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death. He paid the debt by his death on the cross.
I am fairly new to the concept of Universalism. I know there are a range of differences just like most doctrines. But isn't here where one of the foundations of Universalism is laid? As I understand it God is holy and pure and perfect. We were created in that image and perfection. Enter sin. God is love, and full of mercy. Enter the law. The holiness and justice of God requires holiness and perfection from His creation. there is a demand for punishment. But God is still Love. He wants perfect relationship with us, but that is a state to which we all fall short. Enter The Perfect Sacrifice. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The perfect sacrifice(Jesus) met all the requirements of the law. God is still Holy and still requires holiness FROM us. We cannot meet those requirements. Jesus, in becoming sin did FOR us what the Father required OF or FROM us. Though the requirements of the law are still required, Jesus fulfilled, or met the requirements for us. Gods justice is served. His holiness is met, so now we will be able to be with Him and experience His perfect love. We experience both His judgment through Jesus and therefore His love because of Jesus. I'm sure I've missed or misplaced something, But isn't that the gist of it?
Fulfil: Original: πληρόω
- Transliteration: Pleroo
- Phonetic: play-ro'-o
- Definition:
1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
a. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b. to consummate: a number
1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
- Origin: from H4134
- TDNT entry: 10:46,9
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: jbertonboundsyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quote from: WWWhat does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem. Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death. He paid the debt by his death on the cross.
Obviously I knew the answer but from your posts I got the impression you don't. Unfortunately I was completely right.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 25, 2013, 07:55:19 PM
Quote
WhiteWings wrote......
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:
WhiteWings please understand that LOVE overrides all laws and all sins. There is simply not a single sin no matter howsmall that will remain hidden in LOVE. You see :HeartThrob: Love exposes everything in a pure light, absolutely EVERYTHING that is not PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is a sin.
Jesus was/is sinless because their was no sin in him, only LOVE. He was incapable of sinning, because of his live for Father.
Please look at the whole picture, and see that Jesus fullfilled the Law completely.
Every sin is now exposed/condemned by Love and not law.
I hope this helps you understand.
Love Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:
I totally understand your point Julie. I just think it's unScriptual.
Love is totally unable to expose anything because only law can do so.
Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
See only the law can punish sin. Without the law nothing can be punished and therefore love has no use because how can love forgive something that's not unlawful.
"13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ." (Romans 2:13-16)
"by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin" (Romans 3:20)
"24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus
25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),
26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26)
"For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law." (Romans 3:28)
"1 Being, then, justified by faith, we may be having peace toward God, through our Lord, Jesus Christ,
2 through Whom we have the access also, by faith, into this grace in which we stand, and we may be glorying in expectation of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1,2)
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)
"Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." (Romans 8:30)
"For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing." (Romans 10:4)
"having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified." (Galatians 2:16)
"Now that in law no one is being justified with God is evident, for the just one by faith shall be living." (Galatians 3:11)
"So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)
"Exempted from Christ were you who are being justified in law. You fall out of grace." (Galatians 5:4)
"4 "Falling from grace" is not, as usually supposed, a loss of the benefits of Christ's salvation through breaking the law. But, on the contrary, through attempting to keep the law. He who falls into sin does not forfeit the grace of God. Blessed to relate, grace abounds in such a case (Rom.6:1). But he who seeks to establish his own salvation by works has no need of the grace of God and forfeits all right to the benefits flowing from His redemption. He thus repudiates grace. He falls out of the sphere where grace operates. This is what "falling from grace" really means." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 284)
"8 To no one owe anything, except to be loving one another, for he who is loving another has fulfilled law.
9 For this: "You shall not commit adultery," "you shall not murder," "you shall not steal," "you shall not testify falsely," "you shall not covet," and if there is any other precept, it is summed up in this saying, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."
10 Love is not working evil to an associate. The complement, then, of law, is love." (Romans 13:8-10)
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 08:39:36 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 25, 2013, 07:55:19 PM
Quote
WhiteWings wrote......
So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh:
WhiteWings please understand that LOVE overrides all laws and all sins. There is simply not a single sin no matter howsmall that will remain hidden in LOVE. You see :HeartThrob: Love exposes everything in a pure light, absolutely EVERYTHING that is not PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE is a sin.
Jesus was/is sinless because their was no sin in him, only LOVE. He was incapable of sinning, because of his live for Father.
Please look at the whole picture, and see that Jesus fullfilled the Law completely.
Every sin is now exposed/condemned by Love and not law.
I hope this helps you understand.
Love Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:
I totally understand your point Julie. I just think it's unScriptual.
Love is totally unable to expose anything because only law can do so.
Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
See only the law can punish sin. Without the law nothing can be punished and therefore love has no use because how can love forgive something that's not unlawful.
I see were you are coming from WW.
The difference is that you see PUNISH, whilst I see CORRECTION.
The Law punishes.
Love :HeartThrob: corrects. This why the works are burned, but person saved.
This is what I meant earlier about the fulfilling of the law being both physical and spiritual.
Punishment has been replaced with correction. This correction might seem like punishment, but the results will be a sight to behold. Love creates a better person.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
According to Webster Dictionary:
ful·fill
transitive verb \fu̇(l)-ˈfil also fə(l)-\
: to do what is required by (something, such as a promise or a contract)
: to succeed in doing or providing (something)
: to succeed in achieving (something) : to make (something, such as a dream) true or real
This dictionary says nothing about "explaining correctly."
Quote from: fortytworc on September 25, 2013, 08:24:46 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on September 25, 2013, 07:42:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
QuoteThe law is not done away with. It is still in full effect,
All laws? Certain type of laws? (These are your words.)
Col 2:14 The law is not done away with. It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quoteyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
What does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem. Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death. He paid the debt by his death on the cross.
I am fairly new to the concept of Universalism. I know there are a range of differences just like most doctrines. But isn't here where one of the foundations of Universalism is laid? As I understand it God is holy and pure and perfect. We were created in that image and perfection. Enter sin. God is love, and full of mercy. Enter the law. The holiness and justice of God requires holiness and perfection from His creation. there is a demand for punishment. But God is still Love. He wants perfect relationship with us, but that is a state to which we all fall short. Enter The Perfect Sacrifice. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The perfect sacrifice(Jesus) met all the requirements of the law. God is still Holy and still requires holiness FROM us. We cannot meet those requirements. Jesus, in becoming sin did FOR us what the Father required OF or FROM us. Though the requirements of the law are still required, Jesus fulfilled, or met the requirements for us. Gods justice is served. His holiness is met, so now we will be able to be with Him and experience His perfect love. We experience both His judgment through Jesus and therefore His love because of Jesus. I'm sure I've missed or misplaced something, But isn't that the gist of it?
Fulfil: Original: πληρόω
- Transliteration: Pleroo
- Phonetic: play-ro'-o
- Definition:
1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
a. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b. to consummate: a number
1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
- Origin: from H4134
- TDNT entry: 10:46,9
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
Awesome.
LIKE :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: jbertonboundsyet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.
Quote from: WWWhat does fulfilled mean?
If you really don't know the answer to this, then that's the problem. Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law that sin be punished by death. He paid the debt by his death on the cross.
Obviously I knew the answer but from your posts I got the impression you don't. Unfortunately I was completely right.
Right about what?
It was not obvious that you knew the answer.
I do not claim to be "completely right" or to know all things. Far from it - such arrogance would only prove that I am one of the "wise and understanding of Luke 10:21 - In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
my :2c:.....the law that leads to Christ as a tutour........ commands that expose/restrain..the sin
or falling short ofthe nature of God[and man in His image]
Christ fulfilling the law...and free gift of Holy spirit..and thenot counting of man's tresspasses
against him..while in this former state[natural].....really is God'slong suffering exercized until..
by His spirit the law is written in man's heart.[man in Christ..the Father'simage/spiritual man
actually God's spirit..inand through Christexalts[raises evenhigher] God's law.. that acts
as a restraint of acts that lac k love for God and all that is right andgood..and restrains the
acts of lack of love to your fellowman......
Genuine Love inthe heartwith accurate understanding[mind of Christ] of the Father andyour
fellowmaan...is above the law..with no law against it.[I am from above/ye refrombelow]
the enmity is between the seeds in all men'sflesh....as first the natural then the spiritual....
[as we have all bornthe imageof the corrupt/so,too shall we all bear theimage oftheincorruptible]
serpentseed...bruises man's heel[wounds anddeath to man's flesh/murderer from beginning].
.the woman'sseed..... obliterates the mind/thoughts/intentsof the serpentseed..and is
caught up to the throne......
just howI seeit........
man in this corruptible image...is really the seedof God falling to earth and dying......God/Jesus
laying downHislife for us[He died for us whenwe were yet at enmity/enemies] Yet..whenHeis
lifted UP..HE SHALL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM.....
Draw and Drag........the dragon casts to the earth.[all the stars fellfrom the sky]... but whenHe is
lifted up...He shall draw allmen......
the seed of the woman is the immortal/resurrection seed.......that all men live unto God.....
the Lordof the living and the dead..quickens with immortality that which was mortal/lights
the candle ofevery man[the light that hadgone out inthe temple/body ofman]that man maay
see the light ofLIFE...which is in God and Christ.
Jesus is the (fulfilling of) the law..?
Jesus is the way.. narrow because on either side are wide ditches, one being "the law" to be saved or even grace plus "the law" (but filthy rags really, only one source of goodness, and it's not us)
..the other ditch being "grace" as license! (Yuk)
"the law" with grace ("is no longer grace" Paul said)
and it robs the gospel of its saving and transforming POWER.
Thru the way, we can boldly approach the throne of grace to get all the help and transforming power we need..
the law pushes us away from Him, the transforming POWER, for it genders fear. we know we are not "good enough"
and are, so to speak, "in chains" i.e, cannot become perfect, what with being imperfect..
so our standing is in Christ Jesus, "He is our righteousness" period? a narrow way.. giving us boldness to draw near to God the source of all salvation, redemption, and transformation / progression of..
Shiela,
Yes! Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, so we can see a shadow of Christ in him, the Mediator of the new covenant.
Moses comes down from the mountain, and he sees SIN, worshipping of idols (SELF being the biggest idol to smash). So Moses SMASHES the stones and goes back up to the mountain to get new tablets.
The one covenant was written on stone, a new covenant is written on Stone. The new stone is Jesus Christ, and the small rocks that live within him do not live by the letter, but according to a new NATURE without the law.
The new Laws written on the Stone are his own people who are within him. Jesus was without sin, not just because he loved his father, but because he lived by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. He had the same flesh as Adam, but was born of NO MAN, but directly by God.
Romans 2:13-14
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (watch this) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do BY NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Nobody in the New Covenant obeys the Law because they have the law. They do things in the Law BY NATURE.....by a washing of the Spirit.....by being Crucified in Christ to the flesh. After that, they are no longer naturally opposed to the things of the Law and the Law is no longer for them because they have already been led to Christ.
It can all be contained in ONE sentence.
Galatians 5:18 "But IF ..... you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law"
Quote from: Seth on October 26, 2013, 01:53:30 AM
It can all be contained in ONE sentence.
Galatians 5:18 "But IF ..... you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law"
:iagree:
I can also see this as no longer eating of the Tree of good and evil ,
Judging the flesh as sinful and spirit is good, not complete , lacking Christ [Romans 7 and 8 ] for its the ministry of death , exposing the sin nature as open /naked
But now eating of the Tree of Life [Spiritual ] the Law in Christ fulfills , Love God and one another as Christ is the covering , and Love covers a multutude of sin
Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2013, 01:52:29 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 26, 2013, 01:53:30 AM
It can all be contained in ONE sentence.
Galatians 5:18 "But IF ..... you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law"
:iagree:
I can also see this as no longer eating of the Tree of good and evil ,
Judging the flesh as sinful and spirit is good, not complete , lacking Christ [Romans 7 and 8 ] for its the ministry of death , exposing the sin nature as open /naked
But now eating of the Tree of Life [Spiritual ] the Law in Christ fulfills , Love God and one another as Christ is the covering , and Love covers a multutude of sin
:thumbsup:
Yes, and if you really think about the "fruit" of good and evil, as compared to the "fruit" of the Law, the fruit of the Law is this: "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good (the Law); that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
Don't eat that fruit. Eat the fruit of the tree of Life which delivers us from sin and transgressions.
Quote from: Seth on October 28, 2013, 04:50:57 PM
Don't eat that fruit. Eat the fruit of the tree of Life which delivers us from sin and transgressions.
Amen! :iagree: :thumbsup:
..."His spirit in us" / "God is Love" / "Love worketh NO ill" / "led by the Spirit" / "not as though we are (already) perfected" fully / Hang out with God (and Jesus) - "draw near" (fear causes us to shrink back, delaying further transformation)
If one is filled with God.. or has the Spirit of God in their heart (surely?) they should not need to think each morning "today I will not murder, defraud, harm, cheat.." / "For the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts" and flows through us..
"not as tho we are perfected" or I would despair!! for I can plainly see how far from perfection I am, but the Love of God shed abroad in my heart keeps me, yet if I were to try via the arm of the flesh to improve myself, I always disappoint myself! But! when I reckon I have one "law" one rule - "to love God" I am free, to love God.. to pursue God.. to draw near in confidence.. "and receive the help I need.."
Law brings guilt.. "The LORD came in the cool of the evening.. Adam where are you..? they hid themselves.."
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2013, 05:18:44 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 28, 2013, 04:50:57 PM
Don't eat that fruit. Eat the fruit of the tree of Life which delivers us from sin and transgressions.
If one is filled with God.. or has the Spirit of God in their heart (surely?) they should not need to think each morning "today I will not murder, defraud, harm, cheat.." / "For the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts" and flows through us..
Yes, exactly. Good fruit grows naturally on good trees.
:dsunny:
manyare destroyed..or gothey way of destruction before they are restored...sodomGomorrah
Jerusalem..........few are choseninthis world not to go that way... the many that do gothat way
are declared righteous by Him giventhe freegift andraised up out of the ash heap.[spirit saved
onthe daay of the Lord]By Hisknowledge my servant will declare many righteous[forinstance
Jesus speaking of the sinner not evenwilling to lift his faace up to God butbeatinghischest
andcrying for God's mercy onhim...God shall clothe such a man in mercy with robes of
righteousness as afreegift[wedding garment] for the wedding garments are mercy bestowed
as free gift of righteousness. Andifany think the garments are anything other then undeserved
kindness they are mistaken.[just as Pharisees and sadducees like to parade about in flowing
garments of their ownrighteousness and make long prayers[to himself] such as I thank you
god[themselves] that I am not like this sinnerover here.
wehave the example inthe scripturess of this..and that scriptures speak of sodom
andgommrrah returning unto their former state.........
THAT IS WHAT RESTORATION IS ALL ABOUT.
I haven't read the paper yet.. I've always felt on either side of "the narrow way" are two wide ditches.. one being "the law" ("law mixed with grace is no longer grace") and the other being "license" "which thing the Lord hates" as some of the gnostics were..
...like the Nicolaitans and the teacher referred to as Jezebel in the Lord's letter to the Church at Thyatira.. the gnostics believed all matter was the problem, man had fallen, not into sin/imperfection, but had fallen into matter (they forgot about the creation and God saying "behold it's all good!")
So if matter was evil.. then eating, sitting, everything was 'evil' so what the hey, just do whatever.. "depths of satan, so called" and called wisdom, so called knowledge.. hidden wisdom/knowledge, the greek word for knowledge being "gnosis".. Notice how it takes sin and mankind's imperfection (need of a savior) off the table.. it's not sin, it's matter itself which is evil.. (cop out!!)
Quote from: Seth on October 28, 2013, 05:20:40 PM
Good fruit grows naturally on good trees.
:dsunny:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2013, 05:24:39 PM
manyare destroyed..or gothey way of destruction before they are restored...sodomGomorrah
Jerusalem..........few are choseninthis world not to go that way... the many that do gothat way
are declared righteous by Him giventhe freegift andraised up out of the ash heap.[spirit saved
onthe daay of the Lord]
THAT IS WHAT RESTORATION IS ALL ABOUT.
Sheila,
that is SO true! man's natural (un born again) way is destruction.. and to/toward destruction.. anything minus the Spirit of God is minus! is destroyed, collapses! and ultimately is "ashes"!!
I feel I was destroyed before I was saved.. and surely(?) this destruction comes upon all sooner or later.. destruction of the lower self.. the lower (w/o God's Spirit) self having proven itself 'wrong'.. likely many times over..
:dsunny:
AMEN !!! Thank you Jesus !!
I always wondered why Jesus said make the Tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt , A TREE IS KNOWN !! by its fruit !! the knowing or knowledge of this is powerful of itself !!
I wondered many times HOW do you make the tree good Lord Jesus ??, because in our own feeble attempts and efforts being so weak in the flesh fail ,
but the LORD sees our troubles and weaknesses and Like Paul said , when I am weak , than I am Strong !! the LORDS SPIRIT rises up in you giving renewd strength and comfort to restore us back to life again ! truly Paul said it right, I DIE DAILY ! and so I see this as THE LORD LIVES IN US !WOW!! doing the works that gives the Father His due glory in the heavens and earth !!! that we might learn righteousness :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2013, 05:38:30 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2013, 05:24:39 PM
manyare destroyed..or gothey way of destruction before they are restored...sodomGomorrah
Jerusalem..........few are choseninthis world not to go that way... the many that do gothat way
are declared righteous by Him giventhe freegift andraised up out of the ash heap.[spirit saved
onthe daay of the Lord]
THAT IS WHAT RESTORATION IS ALL ABOUT.
Sheila,
that is SO true! man's natural (un born again) way is destruction.. and to/toward destruction.. anything minus the Spirit of God is minus! is destroyed, collapses! and ultimately is "ashes"!!
I feel I was destroyed before I was saved.. and surely(?) this destruction comes upon all sooner or later.. destruction of the lower self.. the lower self having proven itself 'wrong'.. likely many times over..
:dsunny:
Oh the LORD IS HERE !! where two or 3 are gatherd in my name I AM IN THE MIDST OF THEM
bawling my eyes out right now writting this !
feel the healing and so very thankful !
breaking though a hardness thats been a burden to bear
Thought of this Marie with you Seth and Shelias posts ! and Anna of couse
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 61:3
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to
give unto them beauty for ashes,
the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. Isa 61:4
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. wow we see the King in His glory this morning , and the mourning has ended TO DAY !!! IN THE LIGHT OF HIS PRESENCE ! we are restored and filled with His joy and peace again
helpful as well
all we can do is be as Paul said , he planted and Apollos watered and its GOD WHO GIVES THE INCREASE , the planting is done by spreading the GOOD SEED / NEWS OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHIRIST in the hearts of mankind
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honour me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand :
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defiles a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defiles man.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2013, 05:40:12 PM
AMEN !!! Thank you Jesus !!
Paul said it right, I DIE DAILY ! :HeartThrob:
"I die daily"!! I got so stressed out this morning! getting grand daughter off to school.. couldn't find this, couldn't find that.. got rather crabby about it all then felt so saddened to have made my little grand daughter (dreamer that she is) a little sad too.. I actually had to wonder just how much of an "overcomer!" I am! but, if Paul, so used by the Lord, had to die daily.. how much more little ole me..
"I die daily" exists along side of "the Spirit dwells in us" not either/or.. hopefully to progress and improve.. via His indwelling Spirit..
Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2013, 05:48:21 PM
wow we see the King in His glory this morning , and the mourning has ended TO DAY !!! IN THE LIGHT OF HIS PRESENCE ! we are restored and filled with His joy and peace again
what a great post / great verses! I needed "renewal"! :girlheart: :smile:
See,I HAVE PLACED BEFORE YOU AN OPENED DOOR THAT NO_ONE CAN SHUT.
I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BUT LITTLE STRENGTHmYET YOU HAVE KEPT MY WORD
AND NO DENIED MY NAME. I WILL MAKE THOSES WHO ARE OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
[Pharisee's sadducees corruptreligious leaders]
AND SAY THEY ARE JEWS THOUGH THEY RE NOT,BUT ARE LIARS-i will make them come
and fall down at your feetmand acknowledge that I have loved you
you see,Rose...all spirits that come before Him in our life[religious teachers of doctrines of
menwithout the spirit of Christ..were robbersand theives] He causes them to fall down
at our feet that we stepover them to follow Him and His spirit in us...it is part of our
over-coming and treading on /over serpents/scorpions and all the power of the enemy.
we are to no longer make our back like the street to be trampled on of them...
O'death where is thy sting? Itell you where itis...it is swallowed up of life/immortality
in Him.
PRAISE GOD!!! For being so good to US!!!
amen sistas in Christ!!
just read Psalms 89 at Annas reminding WOW! and than you say this Shelia ! its a double witness Spirit of God in Christ , that union of the heavens and earth being healed and reconciled a refreshing breath of Life ,
as the Lord restores our souls back to Life again
Thanks Marie , I hear you been crabby lately too , needing the great change that ONLY the promises of God can deliver though Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour !!
I am in Awe!
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2013, 06:57:11 PM
See,I HAVE PLACED BEFORE YOU AN OPENED DOOR THAT NO_ONE CAN SHUT.
I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BUT LITTLE STRENGTHmYET YOU HAVE KEPT MY WORD
AND NO DENIED MY NAME. I WILL MAKE THOSES WHO ARE OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
[Pharisee's sadducees corruptreligious leaders]
AND SAY THEY ARE JEWS THOUGH THEY RE NOT,BUT ARE LIARS-i will make them come
and fall down at your feetmand acknowledge that I have loved you
you see,Rose...all spirits that come before Him in our life[religious teachers of doctrines of
menwithout the spirit of Christ..were robbersand theives] He causes them to fall down
at our feet that we stepover them to follow Him and His spirit in us...it is part of our
over-coming and treading on /over serpents/scorpions and all the power of the enemy.
we are to no longer make our back like the street to be trampled on of them...
O'death where is thy sting? Itell you where itis...it is swallowed up of life/immortality
in Him.
PRAISE GOD!!! For being so good to US!!!
Shiver me timbers! Good words those!!
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2013, 06:57:11 PM
See,I HAVE PLACED BEFORE YOU AN OPENED DOOR THAT NO_ONE CAN SHUT.
I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BUT LITTLE STRENGTHmYET YOU HAVE KEPT MY WORD
AND NO DENIED MY NAME. I WILL MAKE THOSES WHO ARE OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
[Pharisee's sadducees corruptreligious leaders]
AND SAY THEY ARE JEWS THOUGH THEY RE NOT,BUT ARE LIARS-i will make them come
and fall down at your feetmand acknowledge that I have loved you
you see,Rose...all spirits that come before Him in our life[religious teachers of doctrines of
menwithout the spirit of Christ..were robbersand theives] He causes them to fall down
at our feet that we stepover them to follow Him and His spirit in us...it is part of our
over-coming and treading on /over serpents/scorpions and all the power of the enemy.
we are to no longer make our back like the street to be trampled on of them...
O'death where is thy sting? Itell you where itis...it is swallowed up of life/immortality
in Him.
PRAISE GOD!!! For being so good to US!!!
Amen Shelia !
The open Door prophecy of Isaiah22
and Jesus though the Spirit to John says in Revelation And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and
he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
Isa 22:22 And the
key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;
so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. Isa 22:23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place;
and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true,
he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Done a study on the feet years ago and there is alot of spiritual meaning in that Lexicon of hearing what the Spirit is saying , we are carring the same witness and the Gospel the truth as the feet of peace that is what vanquishes , that power over the enemies
Results Strong's G4228 - pous πούς
Part of Speech
masculine noun
a foot, both of men or beast
often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished
of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace. Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Rom 16:20 And
the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Eph 6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
seeing the correlation in all the scriptures saying the same things !! :HeartThrob:
Beautiful wittness to Him,Rose!!!!!!
Quote from: sheila on October 29, 2013, 06:25:36 PM
Beautiful wittness to Him,Rose!!!!!!
Sheila and Rosered:
I've been blessed and greatly encouraged this day by you two sisters (in the flesh and in the spirit!!!)
re: Beautiful witness to Him
re: see the correlation in all the Scriptures saying the same things.
One of my devotionals Daily Open Windows - TASparks for Oct 29
Romans 11:36
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever.
..
"HE governs everything, in the realities of His Person and of His redemptive and perfecting work. It is one Person and one Work, from the first book of the Bible to the last. The change from the OT to the NT is simply and only the change from the indirect to the direct; from the symbolic to that which is symbolized; from the temporal representation to the spiritual reality. That is all. It is not a change of purpose or object, not a change of basis or foundation; it represents no change of principle in any way.
...
For example, all God's dealings with the patriarchs were, in principle, as much upon the basis of His Son as are HIS DEALINGS WITH YOU AND ME. (emphasis mine). ... everything is proceeding on that basis and will be consummated in Christ. ..."
===============
It seems to me that it is really important that we immerse ourselves in the WHOLE Word of God (which I believe Sheila and Rose do) ... Jesus Himself used the whole of the OT to explain to His disciples the meaning of everything He revealed in the New:
Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in ALL the Scriptures.
It seems to me that Paul was chosen to further "explain" Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
May we all continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ--Savior of all men especially those who have been given to believe in this age. and then how beautiful will be our feet as we go forth to bring the Good News to all ...
QuoteIt seems to me that it is really important that we immerse ourselves in the WHOLE Word of God ... Jesus Himself used the whole of the OT to explain to His disciples the meaning of everything He revealed in the New:
Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in ALL the Scriptures.
It seems to me that Paul was chosen to further "explain" Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
May we all continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ--Savior of all men especially those who have been given to believe in this age. and then how beautiful will be our feet as we go forth to bring the Good News to all ...
Blessings Sista Anna ,
I gree we can see the Testimony of Jesus Christ
IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY The one and same whom filled the minds and mouths of the prophets of old
and the new !
I was just thinking about How Jesus returned from the dead / of his own mortal body
to speak to John in Revelation in the Spirit [same Testimony /witness and Spirit and also to Paul .
and speaks to us today by the same witness the Spirit of prophecy
to worship God in Spirit and Truth !!
note its the feet / teaching, that they fell to worship this fellow servant , but having the same Spirit /testimony of Jesus in them !!
I was told many years ago by a fellow servant , the Old is God testifying of His Son and the new is the Son testifying of His Father , To me I have considered the Spirit of Christ /being the Seed/ Word of God/ Truth made flesh and the Spirit of God being the HOLY Union of one SPIRIT according to these verses
Rev 19:10 And I fell at
his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking
by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit .
1Cr 6:17 But he that is
joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink
into one Spirit.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by
one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and
one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Yes, more of Him !!
Quote from: rosered on October 29, 2013, 08:36:16 PM
It seems to me that it is really important that we immerse ourselves in the WHOLE Word of God ... Jesus Himself used the whole of the OT to explain to His disciples the meaning of everything He revealed in the New:
Yes, and not only do I see Jesus represented in the OT, I see Jesus representing his church both in the OT and in his earthly ministry (ie his physical cross unto the spiritual cross via Romans 6 through spiritual baptism). In as much as the temple and the lambs represent Christ, they also represent those who are
IN CHRIST.
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2013, 11:38:44 PM
Quote from: rosered on October 29, 2013, 08:36:16 PM
It seems to me that it is really important that we immerse ourselves in the WHOLE Word of God ... Jesus Himself used the whole of the OT to explain to His disciples the meaning of everything He revealed in the New:
Yes, and not only do I see Jesus represented in the OT, I see Jesus representing his church both in the OT and in his earthly ministry (ie his physical cross unto the spiritual cross via Romans 6 through spiritual baptism). In as much as the temple and the lambs represent Christ, they also represent those who are IN CHRIST.
Seth, Rosered, Sheila: reading, and now printing your ongoing discussion in this thread as well as in the Hail..fire...blood thread, I find myself in awe of just how much has been revealed through the OT/NT and look forward to gaining more light...life as I continue reading all the wonderful Scripture references you three have provided/will provide. Some are oldies... but a few have been brought to my attention for the first time. Rosered you mentioned in one of your posts that Jesus Christ is the Book of life... it seems to me that the Bible (OT/NT) is the Book of love... we learn through all the visible creation God's power and divinity... but only through the written word, can we learn of God's love in Christ Jesus...so, yes, I agree... we need to be immersed in the WHOLE word of God. May His peace, joy, mercy, grace, truth, life, light continue to flow through you.
Blessings Anna ,
I praise God for all His love and glory revealed though Jesus Christ our Lord !
Fot this place and other likeminded believers !
Anna , you said this not me , but whole heartedly agree
QuoteIt seems to me that it is really important that we immerse ourselves in the WHOLE Word of God ... Jesus Himself used the whole of the OT to explain to His disciples the meaning of everything He revealed in the New:
Thank God for His faithful SPIRIT and Truth as we eat His body and drink His blood that we might have Life in us , and Yes the Love is the greatest part proven over and over again .. ! God changes us , and though Jesus Christ many sons born and revealed to HIS GLORY and Honor and High praise !! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on November 04, 2013, 06:16:38 PM
Blessings Anna ,
I praise God for all His love and glory revealed though Jesus Christ our Lord !
Fot this place and other likeminded believers !
Anna , you said this not me , but whole heartedly agree
QuoteIt seems to me that it is really important that we immerse ourselves in the WHOLE Word of God ... Jesus Himself used the whole of the OT to explain to His disciples the meaning of everything He revealed in the New:
Thank God for His faithful SPIRIT and Truth as we eat His body and drink His blood that we might have Life in us , and Yes the Love is the greatest part proven over and over again .. ! God changes us , and though Jesus Christ many sons born and revealed to HIS GLORY and Honor and High praise !! :HeartThrob:
re: ... you said this not me...
lol LOL little old lady laughs out loud aka made a joyful noise unto the Lord (Rosered, you and I think so much alike regarding our wonderful Lord and Savior!!!)
I was putting together a possible post on "greater love" ... I checked my notes and found a quote by Charles Stanley "...the Bible describes love in terms of sacrificial action... while it's rarely necessary to die for the sake of another, genuine love usually involves some level of sacrifice. As Christians, we are to show unconditional, selfless love to others--just as Jesus did for us. etc., etc., I wanted to post but decided to check/read TMForum recent posts first and SAW your beautiful reply to WW re: Christ/sufferings ... which really supported very Scripturally my post on No greater love hath any man than to lay down his life for his friends... so, of course, I needed to print your reply and file it carefully (on my current huge pile!!) and was so grateful to God for having you and me actually considering at the very same time Christ's sufferings/sacrificial death.... and so I have this huge Son shiney smile on my face!
After printing that reply, decided to post and as always, I checked/read the recent posts and the Son shiney smile just grew.... as I read that I actually quoted myself thinking that you had said.... immersed in the WHOLE book.....
Psalm 95
v 1 O COME, let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
v 2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto Him with psalms.
Blessings Anna ,
in the name of our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!!
Counting it all as joy sister
though I confess that there are battles between this ol flesh and Gods Spirit !
His faithfulness is humbling and always thankful He prevails !!
I find my own self like Peter at times ''cutting off the ears ''
but I love reading what Peter shares with us though his battles , there is always a blessing when hearing what the Spirit is saying in His HOLY WORD !
The Psalms of David blessed me personally and recieved a Word from the Lord in them during the times of deep deprssion and transisition from one state of mind to the other ! praise God again
from simon as hearing to now Peters this ''little rock'' of building up the Living Word !!that the gates of hell / grave shall NOT prevail as Jesus gave Himself for and has the Keys to His Kingdom to share with us all whom believe and obey Him !
1 Peter 2
King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
I love it when the Spirit blows and clears our minds and comforts our hearts that the Pure and Holy regins within!!!
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
MOST PRECIOUS !!
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
We are thankful for His mercy on all of us
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Yes I am sure of this and have this problem , but thankful for the answer = Jesus Christ to run to , now knowing His Love , mercy and grace !! and now also desiring this for all as Gods will that none shall perish
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
the Lord and His Light and knowledge of God the Father has visited us !!!
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
I am still learning this part !!
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
wow ,,,I love it when the scriptures speak to us though His Holy Spirit and we are revived again !!! not just survival but
revival . A restoration to use, acceptance, activity, or vigor after a period of obscurity
GOD IS GOOD ALWAYS!! :HeartThrob:
1 John 4;7 " Beloved let us love one another; FOR LOVE IS OF GOD;
and every one that loves is born of love, and knows God."
We are told that we know we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.1 John 3;14
The interesting implication seems to be that we are dead until Christ makes us alive in Spirit.
Would indeed explain why I felt something was missing but could not put a finger on what that was until being corrected from my personal efforts to His provision and the reality of the depths of His work. Hence as was mentioned the power of the testimony is what Christ has done for us, not what we attempt to do for Him.
Quote from: Ross on November 13, 2013, 01:19:27 PM
1 John 4;7 " Beloved let us love one another; FOR LOVE IS OF GOD;
and every one that loves is born of love, and knows God."
We are told that we know we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.1 John 3;14
The interesting implication seems to be that we are dead until Christ makes us alive in Spirit.
Would indeed explain why I felt something was missing but could not put a finger on what that was until being corrected from my personal efforts to His provision and the reality of the depths of His work. Hence as was mentioned the power of the testimony is what Christ has done for us, not what we attempt to do for Him.
Awesome, dude! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Ross on November 13, 2013, 01:19:27 PM
1 John 4;7 " Beloved let us love one another; FOR LOVE IS OF GOD;
and every one that loves is born of love, and knows God."
We are told that we know we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.1 John 3;14
The interesting implication seems to be that we are dead until Christ makes us alive in Spirit.
Would indeed explain why I felt something was missing but could not put a finger on what that was until being corrected from my personal efforts to His provision and the reality of the depths of His work. Hence as was mentioned the power of the testimony is what Christ has done for us, not what we attempt to do for Him.
:iagree:
For it is God in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. It's all of God from faith to the salvation of our souls from sin so that
no man may boast.
Amen!
Is Jesus the narrow way?
absolutely! right? he is "the door.." ....is there a verse where He said this..?
.."the way, the truth and the light.."
this is an awesome thread..
God bless (have a good evening..morning or afternoon)
Is Jesus the narrow way?
Well yes and no. No, because Jesus cleared the way for all of Fathers children; a way that just did not exist before. However, even so.....
Mat 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Why should the gate be small and the road narrow? Very simple really, the gate is a metaphor for our faith. Father and Jesus are so pure and so full of light that many just cannot grasp something so pure. Their minds and hearts are restricted and their trust is as narrow and as bumpy as the road that leads to life. Yes, such as these see their life as such and live in glee for they 'know' that their god will severely punish anyone who do not struggle as they.
Yet, this is not what Jesus taught. Jesus said we must have Faith, Hope and Love. He told us that we have only to ask and it will be given, though even this has been long misunderstood. Asking is not saying: "Please Father, may I have....." but rather giving Thanks for everything Father that he has given each of so far (what hasn't He given us?) Living in and through Gratitude opens so many doors. Father knows what we need, before we even ask; therefore we must TRUST Him enough to not worry about anything (something Jesus told us)
Living like this is not difficult, for those living in Spirit and Love. For those that are not; impossible. All one needs to do is let go of their understanding, ideals and beliefs and TRUST.
1 Corinthians 13
New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Love Julie :HeartThrob: