Women Today

[Amie]

Howdee all,

It's been a while since I've visited over here, but I never forget ya :).  I had a curiosity sweep over me -- What do you, as Universalists, feel is the woman's role today (if any at all)?  Why or why not?

Thanks ahead  :icon_flower:

Amie

[joyful1]

Hi Amie!  :icon_flower:
From my standpoint, I'm perfectly ok with being "a woman" in the strictest sense of the word. It's the vessel that God made me into and I'm happy to be a "weaker vessel." if you can call it that. After all, we are the ones birthing the babies!

That being said, He also made me very inquisitive and gave me thirst for the Truth! I respect those that believe women need to continue in the limitations placed on them by Scripture, because I'm also a "peacemaker." But I haven't totally made up my mind that we "have" to do that--ok?

If I want to discuss issues with them, I simply try to keep from expressing my opinions too strongly. Sometimes that gets interpreted as trying to teach, and Paul did not allow women to teach in the church.

In the end; I believe that "there is neither male nor female IN Christ Jesus." So spiritually speaking, I feel perfectly at ease approaching the throne of God in prayer and meditation as an equal to any other "soul" on the planet.

We are in this present state in physical bodies of male and female. I believe that the restraints of modest dress, quiet keepers at home, etc. are for our benefit.And, like any other follower of Christ, I try to stay within those boundaries. Yes, I wear regular swim wear but don't parade around in it. Yes, I drive a car and boss my husband around (*but only when he needs it! LOL!!) I'm not bound by any laws. But I sense His pleasure when I choose to honour His "way" for women. It's a whole trust issue with me. I trust His guidance. My Father really does Know Best!

NOW....having said all of that....I'm going to let you in on a little secret...I've noticed that most of the time, women get the "spiritual" side of things, but men get the big "revelations" that come from the scriptures....I know that sounds stupid. I base my opinion strictly on observation. I can try very hard and study the same scriptures and probably (*I don't know) pray just as long as the best of them....but I fall short over and over again and again....and some "stupid man!"  :laughing7: always ends up having to 'spain it to me! oh bother! I'm probably going to get all kinds of rebuttals on this....but since I've not completely made up my mind on the subject....bring it on sisters! and brothers!
  :icon_queen: :icon_king:
Joyce :)

[SeekerSA]

oh bother! I'm probably going to get all kinds of rebuttals on this....but since I've not completely made up my mind on the subject....bring it on sisters! and brothers!
  :icon_queen: :icon_king:
Joyce :)

Gasp - heretic - where's my BIC lighter flick... flick... flick... damn out of gas LoL

Well ladies as a man with MCP tendencies and I really do try and suppress them, I do not believe women are weaker when it comes to revelation and or teaching.  In fact I would agree on the assertion that women generally have a gentler spirit and because of that many times I have read some enlightening stuff here and elsewhere posted by the fairer s-x.

IMO there is not a distinction between male or female spiritually and I base that solely on the fact that God is NOT a respecter of persons.

I think the culture we are brought up in says a lot for the way we perceive things scripturally and of course the shut-up and listen - ask your husband mindset is archaic, what if you are not married?

So here is a vote of confidence for you from the other side.

Blessings

[hopeful]

Howdee all,

It's been a while since I've visited over here, but I never forget ya :).  I had a curiosity sweep over me -- What do you, as Universalists, feel is the woman's role today (if any at all)?  Why or why not?

Thanks ahead  :icon_flower:

Amie

Out of a sincere desire to "please God", I used to gather several scriptures together and arrange them in a nice little pakage called "The Role Of Women In The Church". The scriptures and the packaging changed through the years which kept myself and others in a lot fear and confusion.  Now I believe that the only role for (this) woman is to listen to the Father and see what He wants me to do.  There are no pre- packaged roles or rules.  (Still got that lighter, SeekerSA?)  What the Father has other women do is between them and the Father.  This "belief" keeps me out of a lot of trouble.  What if I 'hear" Him wrong?  Well, I wouldn't be the first dumb sheep!

My time to write is limited!  Maybe more later.

:girlheart:

[martincisneros]

There are so many things that get both mistranslated and misinterpreted in St. Paul's writings about women.  There were things that were directly related to how the congregations were set up, and then there were specific settings where "the women among you" I don't allow to teach.  There are early traditions that Priscilla was the pastor of the Church at Philippi (ordained by St. Paul himself) and that she'd written the book of Hebrews (and has been teaching men ever since).

The role of women simply varies woman by woman.  I do believe that it's the perfect will of God that for the women that have a tendency to be domineering that they should sit down and shut up.  While the more timid women probably have both Jesus and Peter pulling them (throwing them) out of the boat to walk on the water.  I don't believe that that's necessarily gender related or limited, but in proportion to each person's personality and what the Lord's endeavoring to create within them and around them.

The New Testament isn't chauvinistic to women at all with the first witnesses to the resurrection having been women.  In a middle eastern context, that's the death of credibility right there to the present day!  And Matthew chapter 1 can bring any woman to her knees with the women included in the geneology.  Again, not politically correct to include the women that it includes -- even to the present day in the middle east, not a good idea, particularly with the Old Testament a couple of pages over for anyone to read up on those women, particularly Tamar and her that had been the wife of Uriah. 

The point that many women miss about being called "daughters of Sarah" is that she's the only woman in the Old Testament that experienced the supernatural renewal of her youth and her beauty to where a pagan king wanted her, and it wasn't for her "quiet and peaceable spirit."  Puh-leeze!  That 90+ year old woman was a freakin' hottie!!  God's right there promising through St. Peter's writing that if women will know their place assigned to them by God -- which isn't going to be the same "place" with every woman -- then He'll make them desireable to that man of theirs until they're way past 100 years old!  Imagine a woman being able to wear a swim suit past 100 years old and still being a jaw-dropper.  And it not being because the Constitution of the United States looks like it's been written in her body in cursive writing with all of the wrinkles!  But because she's become the same thing into her old age that she is in her heart -- a radiant beauty in the eyes of God!

(And the next time you see a particularly elderly woman, it will be rude if you start reading her wrinkles, "We the people of the United States.....")

The point is for each of us, whether male or female to stay in that condition that God's called us in, according to 1Corinthians 7, although if other arrangements have been made along the way, according to the same chapter you're not in sin.  And if we'll all -- whether male or female -- have a "quiet and peaceable spirit" where the Scriptures are concerned, then God will keep every area of our lives absolutely gorgeous -- although we might each have to walk it out by faith for a while, since unfortunately nothing's automatic in a world still full of spiritual warfare.  Sarah had to keep laughing and to learn to laugh a lot of things off until Abraham had the audacity to tell her to claim to be his sister for his own safety :sigh: -- uh...actually her's.....uh.....never mind....

[autoimmune]

Sarah had to keep laughing and to learn to laugh a lot of things off until Abraham had the audacity to tell her to claim to be his sister for his own safety :sigh: -- uh...actually her's.....uh.....never mind....

Oh, my, Martin, what a memory that pulls up for me!

In my early thirties we had moved to a new post (I was a military wife).  There were no Catholic bible studies at the time, but someone told me of a group of officer's wives who met for bible study.  So I went.  My first visit there were about 2 dozen women gathered at a colonel's house.  I walked in,was greetly courteously and welcomed, and the bible study began.

One of the first things that came up was a problem two of them had concerning whether a women should do as her husband told her even if it was morally wrong.  They and their husbands had apparently gone to the movies a few evenings before.  As they were exiting their movie, the husbands said that no one would notice if they slipped into another of the rooms to watch another movie free. The wives at first suggested that was wrong, but did do as their husbands had said.

I listened quietly as the other women all agreed that they hadn't done anything wrong, that a woman MUST obey her husband.  The sin would be on him, not her and it was a greater sin to disobey their husbands.  There was a lot of discussion of Paul and a woman's role in the family.

I was a bit stunned as I listened, hardly believing what I was hearing.  I asked, "Where in the bible does it say the husband is responsible for my sin as a woman? Aren't we all responsible before God for what we do? Isn't that what got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden, for laying the blame on the other guy, rather than taking responsibility for their own sin?"

Well, one of the woman remembered something their preacher had given them a short while back.  That Abraham had told Sarah to lie and say that she was his sister so that the Pharoah would not kill him to get her.

LOL! yeah, I guess she WAS a hottie, Martin :)

Anyway, all the women started chiming in saying "Yes, see it IS biblical, it IS okay to lie if the husband says so" etc etc . . .

I tried interjecting a few times that they were missing the point of the story, that it was to show the damage a lie does. Abraham could have caused the death of Pharoah and his people by that lie . . .

Well, they wouldn't let up.  They had found it. The scripture that allowed them to maintain their belief.

I finally said, rather loudly, I'm afraid, because they really weren't letting me get a word in edgewise as the sole dissenter, " Fine then go home and f*** your fathers.  If Lot's daughters did it, then Genesis 19 must mean it's okay for you, too."

Whoa, you could have heard a pin drop!

But I think they finally got the point :)

I was a bit feistier back then than I am now and was more prone to using shock as a tool when reasoned discourse failed :)

LOL! Thanks for the memory, Martin.

ME

[joyful1]

Gasp - heretic - where's my BIC lighter flick... flick... flick... damn out of gas LoL

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/568/568363v9kx6xu2g5.gif)

[Amie]

Thank you so much for your replies!

I know that in mainstream Christianity, there are some common kind of roles for women -- don't think I need to go there in this crowd :). 

Anyhow, I was curious as to how UR affected those views.  It sounds like some of you just feel how you feel, and that's cool.  I think it's interesting too that there is a certain amount of freedom to explore within UR - being wrong doesn't mean burning in eternal hellfire or poofing into nonexistence (whichever happy little ending is tacked on).

I know women who are afraid to explore answers for themselves.  They have more confidence in their male leadership than their own eyes.

Amie

[sparrow]

What do you, as Universalists, feel is the woman's role today

The way I see it there is no "role" for women...as there is no "role" for men.
I don't divide people up into sexes and colors and junk... I see people as being all the same.
Our role's are all the same.
Simply....To love.

peace,
sparrow

[Craig]

Men and women are different physically, mentally and emotionally, but they are not different when it comes to the Spirit. That is because, by the Spirit we are one with God. Now the problem I find when people talk about genders and other things, is they have in mind the sins of our father's, who for a time made women into submissive slaves and continually abused them (Of course that didn't happen to all, but people only like to remember the negative and then because everyone remembers it, they think it was the norm.) When I say men and women are different, I also mean that women have strengths men do not, which are for the benefit of all humanity, in the same way men have strengths women do not, which are for the benefit of all humanity.

An example: In a medical journal a few years ago, an experiment was done on mice which found majority of male mice died under constant stress pressure but a majority of female mice did not under the same conditions. They decided to do a two year study on stress on men and women to see if this was unique to mice, or applied to humans as well. At the end of the study, amazingly the results matched. It is scientifically proved, a majority of men die due to constant stress pressure, while a majority women in the same conditions seem to endure it and live. Both genders can handle stressful situations on a time to time basis, but when faced with constant stress, the man can actually just sudden body failure and die with no previous symptoms.

Now, if that is not an ability a woman can utilize that a man can not? How does that or did that play a role in society and culture? We are just as intelligent today as we were 6000 years ago, we are just as able to discover patterns, strengths and weaknesses today, as we were 6000 years ago.

[Mickiel]

Well in my view, Women are the pivot point of God in his creation of humanity, or his element of change. Change as far as the new birth, and the balance of his eternal plans for humanity. I also view females as the main ingredient in his creative reproductive intent for the new creation of his own children. What God wants in his OWN family, is tendered MORESO through females, than in males! I thus view women as more important to God than males.

Its the way he uses females that gives me this impression. The world views males as more important, more dominant. Yet God has CONTINUALLY showed that he will work differently, and really use what the world thinks he does not. Women are more of a key to God than men, and I have always stated as such. I believe he favors women over men, I really do. He created Adam, but depended on Eve to confront satan. If God hadnot muted Eve in the Garden, women would have ruled this earth. Eve was so powerful, that God had to curse her in order to accomplish his will on earth. A curse from God limited women on purpose.

From that curse, the future elevation of females will be much higher than males. IN Gods Kingdom. So the prenatal existence of being female, is a much higher calling than prenatal male. God will erase gender, but his use of women in their prenatal human state, is of much more significance than being male.

Peace.

[Molly]

There are early traditions that Priscilla was the pastor of the Church at Philippi (ordained by St. Paul himself) and that she'd written the book of Hebrews (and has been teaching men ever since).

Priscilla wrote the book of Hebrews? :mshock:

wow!  What a role model, if true.