Among things like how and why we're here and the universe was created, why such immense evil exists in this world demands an explanation. Churchianity has an explanation for this; Universalists don't. Churchianity believes a completely evil mutant who's battling God is the reason we have all the evil in this world. Sounds reasonable, right? Afterall, all the crazy evil that's commited demands such an explanation, right? Universalists, on the other hand, believe Satan is actually a tool of God (and don't get me wrong, that interpretation definitely seems to be a lot more scriptural.) Realistically, I just can't believe that the god of love described in the Bible would be responsible for causing so much pain to some living beings. And Christains feel the same way I do (which is why they believe Satan is the cause.)
I don't believe in the Lucifer version of Christianity; and I don't believe this world could be part of a loving god's plan. That's why I choose agnosticism.
I completely understand. My faith however seeks to find what is outside of my realm of want and emotional reaction.
I am not saying that in a demeaning manner towards you. What I mean is that Satan being created for a purpose, a divine purpose nonetheless, goes against everything I feel and everything I have been taught.
So, I try to see that not liking something, or if something that doesn't logically fit in a natural realm of explanation is not a measure of how true or untrue something is.
I have also understood that no matter how much we might understand something that also does not dictate how much control we have over it.
Atheists maintain that becauae there is no spiritual evidence, that when we die, that is it, but it cannot be proven by any means other than knowing that our physical bodies stay here and decompose. They have no control over the truth or lack thereof concerning spirituality, they have only sought to appease how they feel about it.
Universalism as a concept cannot be "proven" in such a way that everyone can be automatically convinced, however, as a concept it is virually the only manner of thinking in the world that removes chance and our ability from the equation entirely. There is not one human that will be failed, not one that had to hope that got it right. No worries that bad karma reincarnated them into Rat instead of a majestic queen, etc etc.
That in and of itself is not proof, indeed, if there is a God, an entity that just passively doesn't care, or one that has some secret criteria that we have to argue amongst ourselves to get it right, convince someone else or face the eternal pit of misery upon failure, then no one has hope at all.
IMO
Quotedon't believe in the Lucifer version of Christianity; and I don't believe this world could be part of a loving god's plan. That's why I choose agnosticism.
Are you afraid that if you believe that God truly exists and is all good, and all loving......that you might be disappointed?
I know I was afraid of this, but even when I was afraid and skeptical......I always secretly hoped it was true.....I hoped that it is true that God really loves us, and that at some point is going to make things right/good and explain it all to us......and help us understand why we've had to go through the things we've gone through.....
Do you see life as more of a terrible drudgery or an awesome gift from the unknown?
DID A GOD MAKE ALL THIS SO BAD?
He did at least make a world and a very awesome world at that! Could it be that this is just the best that God could do? Maybe we should just forgive God because He can't do any better. He says He's going to make it all right someday. He says He'll make this world much better soon. Next time He creates a world it will be so wonderful that "the former things will not be remembered, nor even be brought to mind."
I was thinking yesterday how much sin, suffering, ignorance and death is in the world we're in for so short a time and thought how I'd make things if I had a lot more knowledge and power, saying sarcastically to God: "And do You think I couldn't do any better!?" His immediate answer was in my awareness, not just so many words. Of course He could make the world much better. That's not hard at all. But I was just looking on the outward appearance of things. The way God is doing things is in order to accomplish a work within us. He's transforming a people into His own image and likeness. This has to be done from the innermost and is in special relationship with Him through contradiction. You can see how in human behavior external bliss is not so very difficult. Just smoke opium. But real quality of character is hard to obtain. "Through much suffering we must enter the kingdom of God."
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 11:44:30 PM
Are you afraid that if you believe that God truly exists and is all good, and all loving......that you might be disappointed?
No, I just think the concept of an all-powerful loving god who would create such an evil world is ridiuclous. Maybe the world's evil, but maybe God didn't create it. No need to believe in Him and chalk evilness up to a divine plan to justify its existence. That's my mentality.
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 25, 2008, 11:44:30 PM
Do you see life as more of a terrible drudgery or an awesome gift from the unknown?
The atrocities in this world really put a dent in the awesomeness.
Quote from: reFORMer on July 26, 2008, 12:51:39 AM
Could it be that this is just the best that God could do? Maybe we should just forgive God because He can't do any better.
Are you serious? Are you sure that's scriptural?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 25, 2008, 11:22:47 PM
I completely understand. My faith however seeks to find what is outside of my realm of want and emotional reaction.
I am not saying that in a demeaning manner towards you. What I mean is that Satan being created for a purpose, a divine purpose nonetheless, goes against everything I feel and everything I have been taught.
So, I try to see that not liking something, or if something that doesn't logically fit in a natural realm of explanation is not a measure of how true or untrue something is.
Obviously if the Bible was full of blatant contradictions, you wouldn't take it seriosuly, right? Well, I feel the god described in the Bible contradicts reality. I just don't think a god of love would allow his creations to experience a certain level of suffering. If I were to try to believe the Bible was true, I'd see it as a desperate attempt to reconcile reality with what was written in a book.
Quote from: Paul on July 26, 2008, 12:55:04 AM
Obviously if the Bible was full of blatant contradictions, you wouldn't take it seriosuly, right? Well, I feel the god described in the Bible contradicts reality. I just don't think a god of love would allow his creations to experience a certain level of suffering. If I were to try to believe the Bible was true, I'd see it as a desperate attempt to reconcile reality with what was written in a book.
If the contradictions cannot be resolved without finding a greater meaning to the text that appears to contradict, yes.
Yes, life does appear to contradict the scriptures. But i believe the bible does not have a message that would lead someone to think it wouldn't.
Can you demonstrate what reality is and what doesn't contradict it?
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:
A comment or two forya...
Quote from: Paul on July 26, 2008, 12:55:04 AM
No, I just think the concept of an all-powerful loving god who would create such an evil world is ridiuclous. Maybe the world's evil, but maybe God didn't create it. No need to believe in Him and chalk evilness up to a divine plan to justify its existence. That's my mentality.
Have you ever read any of J. Preston Eby's writings Paul?
He writes many things which display the
inner meanings of the EVIL which we observe
outwardly, concluding them to be illogical or unnecessary... and shows by illustration, that these things serve a greater agenda which is beyond our sight to view... but shall manifest in our experience regardless...
These words of yours below remind me of one of Eby's stories, which I read several years ago...
Quote from: PaulObviously if the Bible was full of blatant contradictions, you wouldn't take it seriosuly, right? Well, I feel the god described in the Bible contradicts reality. I just don't think a god of love would allow his creations to experience a certain level of suffering. If I were to try to believe the Bible was true, I'd see it as a desperate attempt to reconcile reality with what was written in a book.
As I, in my failing memory recall, ...it was a story about a SCRAGGLY TWIG in the Forest... it went something like this (please forgive my shabby reiteration of a very beautiful story - too lazy to search for the original story! :laughing7:)
A Man was walking through the forest and noticed this USELESS scraggly twig on the ground... He picked it up... and the twig complained that he was being taken from his home, ...the Man disregarded the twigs complaining and took it home.
The Man, upon arriving at home took out his knife and began scraping the twig... the twig REALLY complained of this treatement. :talkangry: It hurt! It hurt a LOT! "Why is this man doing this to me", the twig said to itself, ...The Man however, disregarded the twig and continued to scrape...
Then the Man, began to hollow out the twig... the twigs whining ever increased, because the pain was just unbearable... thinking in its sorrow, why didn't this stupid Man leave me alone in the forest?
The Man once again, disregarded the twigs complaints, and the began to drill holes in the twig... Now the twig was really getting grouchy... the Man ignored the twig and continued His agenda which was STILL UNKNOWN to the twig...
The Man then took sandpaper, and began sanding the twig all over its length. The twig cried about that too... but the Man ignored the twigs complaints...
The Man completed the sanding, and then began to paint the twig... the twig didnt like this either, but the Man continued despite the complaints...
Finally a few days later... the Man picked up the twig... and began to play beautiful music through it... This delighted the TWIG... As the Man played, the TWIG saw his reflection in a window... He was BEAUTIFUL! He was no longer an ugly TWIG, but a beautiful FLUTE!
In this instant, the TWIG realized that the Man had transformed by His wonderful Creative abilities, a USELESS SCRAGGLY TWIG into a BEAUTIFUL MUSICAL INSTRUMENT... and the TWIG, no longer complaining, FROM that day forth, had nothing but PRAISE for the Man at this REVELATION of what had been previously withheld from his SIGHT.That we cannot see that GOD is in such a process with us... is the basis for our complaints. We do not see the "finished product", nor do we see the USES which shall come forth upon that completion... All we see is that we are amidst an uncomfortable scenario which we find displeasing, and therefore deduce that our scenario is CONTRARY to productivity or postive result...
Just as the TWIG, which had it not been RESCUED from its place in the forest, would have either
rotted to
nothing or become fuel for the next forest fire...
Instead, the Creator in His WISDOM, took it and transformed it from USELESSNESS and UGLINESS, into a BEAUTIFUL INSTRUMENT to be cherished and to be used to make music for all...
We are amidst a process which appears unreasonable, and definitely uncomfortable... but as with the "TWIG", ...the end result shall be beyond anything we could have imagined, and we shall AGREE that the process was both NECESSARY and RIGHT!
Hope this little tidbit might possibly give even just an inkling of a hint that GOD is in such a process with us, which is SO BIG, there is not ONE MAN on earth, that can in his farthest most wild and creative imagination know, ...what is WONDERFULLY in store for all of us!
PeaCE...
...willieH :cloud9:
QuoteNo, I just think the concept of an all-powerful loving god who would create such an evil world is ridiuclous. Maybe the world's evil, but maybe God didn't create it. No need to believe in Him and chalk evilness up to a divine plan to justify its existence. That's my mentality.
I agree God is good.....all loving and all powerfull, and I don't believe God is creating all the madness and suffering you see......but I believe He is allowing it because God knows what the end will be, and it is good and perfect.....and all we've ever hoped for......and perhaps much more.....
...but Paul.......let me ask you this -- If all things are working toward a greater good......isn't the pain and trouble worth it in the end??
Ask any loving mother who has just given birth to a child, and they will say it was all worth the pain and suffering.
......and for some reason the suffering and pain makes the end result all the more meaningfull.
Humanity is giving birth to a single child...
Quote from: Paul on July 25, 2008, 09:22:19 PM
Among things like how and why we're here and the universe was created, why such immense evil exists in this world demands an explanation. Churchianity has an explanation for this; Universalists don't. Churchianity believes a completely evil mutant who's battling God is the reason we have all the evil in this world. Sounds reasonable, right? Afterall, all the crazy evil that's commited demands such an explanation, right? Universalists, on the other hand, believe Satan is actually a tool of God (and don't get me wrong, that interpretation definitely seems to be a lot more scriptural.) Realistically, I just can't believe that the god of love described in the Bible would be responsible for causing so much pain to some living beings. And Christains feel the same way I do (which is why they believe Satan is the cause.)
I don't believe in the Lucifer version of Christianity; and I don't believe this world could be part of a loving god's plan.
There isn't a single philosophy that you can think of anywhere, whether Communist, Capitalist, or whatever -- go through every philosophy that you please, even into the absolutely fatalistic ones like Islamic Jihad -- every single philosophy everywhere has got as a part of it's blueprint that "the ends justify the means." It's not peculiar to Arminianism, Calvinism, or Universalism.
Every single system is an attempt at getting 2 + 2 = 4
To me, the Universal Restoration through Jesus Christ is perdy near the only one, or at least one of a small handful of things that's worth messin' with, that has the promise in it that at the end of the day it's all reconciled and restored.
Even your doubts, Paul, have a subliminal "the ends justify the means" 'cause you're like "if there's anything remotely to this, God will show me eventually..." It's just inescapable, that anything you're ever taught or discussing with a human being is going to have "the ends justify the means" as a part of it's conviction. There's not anything that you're ever going to learn, while you're still learning it through your own thoughts and the thoughts of any other mortal that's going to fully satisfy. Perhaps even with the Holy Spirit in your life, something in this life will never quite add up.
I've had several really miraculous encounters with our Lord when every single question of mine was answered. And then as I got to thinking later, this leads to this and this leads to this, and what about this and what about that? Every answer you'll ever come to in this life is going to be a single thread out of an entire spider web. You'll see this, this, and this. But then from your new higher perspective it'll wind up being: but what about that, that, and that??????
I'll bottomline this with an appeal to a Quantum Mechanical argument: when sin was introduced in the Garden, whether by accident, disobedience, or design -- every single molecule in the universe was thoroughly affected, effected, and infected. God having deeded the property over to man for X-number of eons abided by His own contractual thing for His own reasons (Jesus parable of the Vineyard, a statement or two in the Psalms about the earth being man's while other statements say it's God's, and other language seems to only reconcile on the theory of a lease of some type for educational reasons or whatever other reason that'll all be clarified to us "someday." Perhaps 2012 is the expiration of that lease if not all of the other stuff that the doomsday false prophets want to get into diahrrea mode about.) -- God proceeds from there (i.e. the fall) to dealing with people on the basis of conscience, faith, and the covenant language that began emerging in the culture by making Promises of what He'll do. Early in the game there's not a lot said about blame, whether God's or man's. Just God saying to walk before Him and by walking before Him to be accounted blameless. Later in the Bible are the statements that people make so much out of with shifting the blame to various people or People. Prior to the coming of Christ, every molecule in the universe is essentially a piece of crap, because as we're told in Quantum Mechanics that if you affect one molecule, then you've changed the whole universe. Seriously. That's in various fields of science and math and not just an "Original sin" doctrine. So, God starts promising and making provision for an Intrusion of sorts. The introduction of a new molecule through His Word, His Spirit, His Blood; the Word becoming Flesh and Tabernacling among us, etc. Ephesians 4 says that when He'd begun the reversal of the wheel of nature, He ascended up far above all things so that He could fill all things -- which takes you, scientifically and mathematically into Superstring theory. Math, science, and experimentation weren't anywhere near advanced enough to have made such an impossible statement for human beings without the experimental proof in front of them in math and with various modern scientific tools to be able to visualize. The changes are evidently still being made one molecule at a time, in taking us from what's actually the antimatter realm where all of the corruption is to the matter realm that's beyond the speed of light. I know that it gets old after a while to say that all things are already restored on the higher realms of existence when we're all wanting to see it in the practical realms of the tangible day to day existence that we're each facing everyday until this body that we inhabit is dissolved.
Some authors base a lot on a statement in Romans 8 about the creation being cast into futility to try to extrapolate from that and other passages that perhaps the fall began prior to our fall, and we came down to the flesh level as our judgment or as the beginning of the remedy to something that happened elsewhere, and then we fell into further oblivion from the cliff that we were on into outter darkness. To me, that's reaching pretty badly. The one thing that that has in it's favor is to be able to say that perhaps the scales are balancing on the time period for the recovery and it's not that it's really dragging out on our seeing all things under His feet from the voluntary volitional standpoint, although all things have already been and always will be under His feet from the perspective of the Supremacy of His power and wisdom. All we've been waiting on, as most here know, is the "all in all" state when all things are One on a level and with a degree of affection that we've not thus far been seeing. The visual part seems to always be the last part of a transaction of faith. Some ministers that are friends of mine have a house that's a really nice house. Really nice! They've only recently gotten it, but they've taken some local media heat for it. But they had that house in their hearts before they ever had a dime. What's around them has simply finally started to catch up with what they'd had in their hearts all of this time. People understand sowing and reaping when it's a matter of sin, but when someone reaps multiplied fruits of righteousness, then half the Body of Christ in the earth wants to balk.
Every area where a Christian resists a sin winds up being a victory in the behalf of the entire Creation. It's not just about personal moral excellence, protecting the manifestation of God's anointing on one's life, and just for a good testimony with outsiders. It's an actual, though intangible victory. I believe that St. Peter's writings allude to this as hastening the Day that the New Heavens and New Earth are brought in. It's as though there's a specific number of temptations to be overcome before all of this world goes into the rinse and permanent press cycles. Every missed opportunity might have slowed us down, but it didn't change the ultimate outcome 'cause as a matter of eonian jurisprudence "It is finished!!" Beyond just the close of the age, every time a Christian submits to the Word and the Holy Spirit in their lives, resists the devil and the temptation immediately before them, and gives God all of the glory and thanks for the victory, then on some other side of the world some missionary's prayer for the sick brings the manifestation of healing. Those who've embraced the Lordship of Jesus are One Body. Every act of intemperance on the part of another believer affects the dynamic at work in each and every healing line, or adds a granule of frustration to some other attempted act of fruitful ministry. So, in some ways, Paul, things are actually worse than you had any idea! Someone didn't get out of a wheelchair last night in some revival crusade 'cause of a Christian across the country that wouldn't stop cussing at his wife, or whatever (ex: 1Peter 3:7). There's nothing that's not interrelated, and that's one of the reasons why some of the answers you'll see won't make sense 'cause you don't yet see where all of the connections are with everything else.
I think that because of condemnation issues and people slipping into a religiously paranoid mode of thinking they're trying to clear a mine field or God won't be pleased or whatever, are some of the main reasons why God doesn't open everybody's eyes to very much for most of their lives. Some things are honestly TMI for some people at certain stages of their lives and they'd just be the worse for the knowledge and would try to reinterpret their lives and their habits through their own carnal minds and would get themselves into further bondage [and depression] rather than take what they've been shown by God to God for Him to fill in the details through the Holy Spirit and through His Written Word so that they'd be able to honestly side-step a genuine mine in the ground out in front of them, but wouldn't create a new denomination over the stupid thing or their stupid unScriptural steps at avoiding it.
Paul I dunno if this may help you - it an essay of R Brinsmead that sorta myth busts most of Chritian traditions but it is radical.
The Scandal of Joshua Ben Adam (http://www.mychurch.org/blog/229523/the-scandal-of-joshua-ben-adam)
It looks at the historical facts of Jesus and what He taught compared to what religion espouses. Probably one of his better articles.
It is long and 124 pages in Word so it will take you awhile to read it but it is worth it.
He addresses the Atheist perspective too and covers most angles. It is thought provoking and at times you want to stop but it all ends well.
Enjoy
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 28, 2008, 08:17:59 PM
QuoteNo, I just think the concept of an all-powerful loving god who would create such an evil world is ridiuclous. Maybe the world's evil, but maybe God didn't create it. No need to believe in Him and chalk evilness up to a divine plan to justify its existence. That's my mentality.
I agree God is good.....all loving and all powerfull, and I don't believe God is creating all the madness and suffering you see......but I believe He is allowing it because God knows what the end will be, and it is good and perfect.....and all we've ever hoped for......and perhaps much more.....
...but Paul.......let me ask you this -- If all things are working toward a greater good......isn't the pain and trouble worth it in the end??
Ask any loving mother who has just given birth to a child, and they will say it was all worth the pain and suffering.
......and for some reason the suffering and pain makes the end result all the more meaningfull.
Humanity is giving birth to a single child...
I liked your post, StainedGlass. "Humanity is giving birth to a single child" ...that's a great analogy.
Hey Paul.. Well, just thougt I'd give you my viewpoint. This is just the way I see it and what is in my heart. Some of this is stuff I wrote awhile back:
I think that it's supposed to be this way.
We came from a place (our real home) where love ruled supreme.
We are here in this place where love can be concealed from view...buried.. hidden.. (yet also uncovered and discovered...)
We're here because we are all the prodigal son...
We decided to leave our home.... we finally made our way to that tree and decided to eat the fruit.
and so we were born here on earth with the clock ticking down our stay, because we wanted to know something, we wanted to see something, we wanted to learn something. It's a very difficult lesson... but we will be all the better for having learned it.The lesson is the same, but experienced in literally countless different ways.... because we are all unique.
And when we go back home...
We will understand what home really is...
and who God is... (love).
It's almost as if "evil" has to just play out to the bitter end. Like we have to get it completely out of our system, in a sense, so it will finally be completely obiterated from existence. Ok, this is kind of a weird picture, but just bear with me... Imagine you're in the most wonderful place you can possibly think of. You've been there for millions of years, it's so beautiful and full of love and peace, you can't even BEGIN to describe it. You want that place to STAY that way, right? You want it to last for eternity. Slowly, something creeps in. You start to get scared that it won't last. And you start to fear. This fear creeps into your being... that it won't last. Why wouldn't it last? Could something make it all go away??? :sigh: Maybe this human life is meant to teach us that nothing can destroy love.
Nothing is going to make our existence on the heavenly plane cease to exist. We are born into this place...for a short time.... this place where fear and love co-exist. Evil is nothing more than "lack of love". We're here to learn just WHAT love is, and just how POWERFUL love is.... no matter how far on the scale evil goes, it cannot destroy love. Ultimately, evil will be exhausted.
That's the way I see it, that evil (which is just a "
perceived lack of love") will be exhausted and ultimately obliterated never again to exist because we have LEARNED THE LESSON. We will all be filled with endless love, so "evil" won't exist. Because evil is just "lack of love". But if we never experienced the opposite of love, how would we all TRULY APPRECIATE "LOVE" and since GOD IS LOVE, how would we every TRULY appreciate God? We really wouldn't, you guys. We HAVE to experience the contrast. It makes sense to me, when I see it this way. Every horrible thing that happens, all of the bad things that people do.... the horrific suffering, it all has one root cause "lack of love". If humans had treated the earth better, there would be a lot less dis-ease. Everything has a cause and effect. Every little thing trickles down. When we don't "love" whether it be love others, love the earth, love nature and what God has lovingly provided to us, love animals, love water, love your neighbor.... it all trickles down. We HAVE to learn this fully. The opposite is true as well. When we LOVE each other... the world can be a beautiful place. When we love others in different cultures, the world can be a beautiful place. There is STILL a lot of beauty in this world, because there is still a lot of LOVE in this world. We're all unique and we're all learning things in different ways. We're all threads in a tapestry. We can't see the full picture of the tapestry right now, but we will when we pass over back to our REAL HOME. and it will all make sense. We will see that this was nothing more than a schoolyard. Who knows, maybe we CHOSE to come here to learn. Maybe there are trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of spirits and maybe only 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 of those spirits decided to (or were chosen) to come here and put on this little "flesh suit" and live this life and create this "tapestry of learning" for all the rest of the trillions of spirits (our brothers and sisters) who are still in our REAL HOME. You never know. What if THAT is the case...? That's kind of an awesome thought, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder....
What we will learn, is that LOVE is the most powerful thing and nothing, ever again will "threaten" our REAL HOME. ever. Because we will have learned the lesson. We will UNDERSTAND love. I think that this life, no matter how atrocious us humans let it get... this life will serve an ultimate purpose. The worse it gets, the deeper the lesson. Like I said in another thread:
And I believe that this life, the learning about love... is why we're here in the first place. A study in contrasts, if you will.I believe that we are all brothers and sisters. Living in a world where we are dealing with love and hate, good and evil. But we have to trudge through this schoolyard called earth in order to understand LOVE. To understand God. I kind of think everything is going to make sense to us one day. Even the most vilest of human suffering... not that it was supposed to happen, but it did happen, and it will be used in a way that will help everyone. Maybe it will be used to teach us about forgiveness. I don't know. I always tend to see stuff in weird ways, like I imagine on the other side of this life... slaveowners dying and God appears as a black man to them. The slaveowner falls on the ground to his knees trembling, Then a bunch of former slaves surround God and help the man up. The power of love and forgiveness will snuff out and completely annihilate that "power" that man yielded while he was on earth. Because his "power" was driven by a basic lack of love. Love is the most powerful thing. Nothing can overpower LOVE. NOTHING! It's so amazing. And I think we'll find that out. I pretty much think that's one of the main reasons we're here going through the motions of this weird life.
So that, some things happening, and we ask ourselves why.... but that's ok... you should ask WHY?! but I have full faith, that EVERYTHING happening, great and small will serve an ultimate purpose. I believe God is showing us there is NOTHING..absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G is MORE powerful than LOVE!! We are learning this, on a small scale, while we are HERE on earth, and on a grand, majestic, amazingly awesome, unbelievable scale when we pass over into the next life and can see the big picture. THAT is what will knock our socks off.... the knowledge of just HOW powerful LOVE is. It overcomes ALL. GOD IS LOVE.
The lesson is that anything that isn't "love" is worthless. Powerless. Alway ends up in destruction.
It comes down to a very BASIC lesson. Like the little kid who eyes the red burner on the stove, he just wants to touch it!! It's such a pretty color, and it looks powerful! just.have.to.touch.it!!!!!! and he is told over and over again, it's nothing. It will only ultimately hurt you. It looks neat, but it isn't at all. Then one day he finally reaches out and touches it... DESTRUCTION!! Didn't mama tell you...?
Well, we had to find out for ourselves didn't we? Once you saw what it really was, you never once felt the need to touch that stove ever again. Because you learned. The stove ceased to have any power over you at all. No matter how brightly it burns... you could care less, you see it for what it REALLY is. Same with love and evil. (remember evil, in my eyes, is just "lack of love" or "perceived lack of love".)
Anyway, this was very long and very rambling... but I just want you to know that I understand where you're coming from. I've been there.
((( hugs ))) to you...
love,
sparrow
p.s. Our ability to see the beauty in this world and to hold onto love is what our loving Father wants us to do, I believe. Those who sink so far down.... and commit atrocious acts against theirselves and against their neighbor... God doesn't want that. But like I said, I think it just has to play out to the end. Love as much as you can in this world, and help to make this world a more beautiful place. Don't get stuck in the horrors of this world, do what you can do to create more love. Learn the lesson on a small scale while you're HERE. Help those who are down so low, because remember... why are they down so low??? LACK OF LOVE. Yes, this world needs more love. So just because things are horrible, do what you can do to improve things in your part of the world by loving others. And just remember that this is all just a temporary place until we go back home. It's just a schoolyard. Keep things in persepective. Let your heart be filled with hope and love others.
People burn to death.
I'm aware there's a story in the Bible where God magically keeps a few men safe who were sentenced by some king to be burned to death.
God will let people be burned alive, but will magically protect a few people when he feels like it?
Al lot of discussion about translations and supporting verses.
But I think many overlook the most important thing of the Bible.
It's studybook God created for people. A way to live how He wants us to live. And how would that be? Well simply like Jesus lived. We are supposed to build human laws on the Bible teachings.
And wich of those Bible teachings says: "Capture someone. Torture as good as you can but make sure the victim survives at least 50 years or constant torture."
Nope it doesn't because God want us to be as He is. So when He forbids that to people it means He doesn't like/do it Himself either.
So don't read the words but read the meaning.
Afteral if Jesus teaches that its allowed, or even needed, that we pull a ox out of a pit on Sabbath; does that mean we are or arn't allowed to pull out a goat or sheep?
Robots live by rules. Humans live by understanding. God taught love. He=love.
So this in itself is even refuting ET.
Quote from: sparrow on July 31, 2008, 05:24:47 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 28, 2008, 08:17:59 PM
QuoteNo, I just think the concept of an all-powerful loving god who would create such an evil world is ridiuclous. Maybe the world's evil, but maybe God didn't create it. No need to believe in Him and chalk evilness up to a divine plan to justify its existence. That's my mentality.
I agree God is good.....all loving and all powerfull, and I don't believe God is creating all the madness and suffering you see......but I believe He is allowing it because God knows what the end will be, and it is good and perfect.....and all we've ever hoped for......and perhaps much more.....
...but Paul.......let me ask you this -- If all things are working toward a greater good......isn't the pain and trouble worth it in the end??
Ask any loving mother who has just given birth to a child, and they will say it was all worth the pain and suffering.
......and for some reason the suffering and pain makes the end result all the more meaningfull.
Humanity is giving birth to a single child...
I liked your post, StainedGlass. "Humanity is giving birth to a single child" ...that's a great analogy.
Hey Paul.. Well, just thougt I'd give you my viewpoint. This is just the way I see it and what is in my heart. Some of this is stuff I wrote awhile back:
I think that it's supposed to be this way.
We came from a place (our real home) where love ruled supreme.
We are here in this place where love can be concealed from view...buried.. hidden.. (yet also uncovered and discovered...)
We're here because we are all the prodigal son...
We decided to leave our home.... we finally made our way to that tree and decided to eat the fruit.
and so we were born here on earth with the clock ticking down our stay, because we wanted to know something, we wanted to see something, we wanted to learn something. It's a very difficult lesson... but we will be all the better for having learned it.The lesson is the same, but experienced in literally countless different ways.... because we are all unique.
And when we go back home...
We will understand what home really is...
and who God is... (love).
It's almost as if "evil" has to just play out to the bitter end. Like we have to get it completely out of our system, in a sense, so it will finally be completely obiterated from existence. Ok, this is kind of a weird picture, but just bear with me... Imagine you're in the most wonderful place you can possibly think of. You've been there for millions of years, it's so beautiful and full of love and peace, you can't even BEGIN to describe it. You want that place to STAY that way, right? You want it to last for eternity. Slowly, something creeps in. You start to get scared that it won't last. And you start to fear. This fear creeps into your being... that it won't last. Why wouldn't it last? Could something make it all go away??? :sigh: Maybe this human life is meant to teach us that nothing can destroy love.
Nothing is going to make our existence on the heavenly plane cease to exist. We are born into this place...for a short time.... this place where fear and love co-exist. Evil is nothing more than "lack of love". We're here to learn just WHAT love is, and just how POWERFUL love is.... no matter how far on the scale evil goes, it cannot destroy love. Ultimately, evil will be exhausted.
That's the way I see it, that evil (which is just a "perceived lack of love") will be exhausted and ultimately obliterated never again to exist because we have LEARNED THE LESSON. We will all be filled with endless love, so "evil" won't exist. Because evil is just "lack of love". But if we never experienced the opposite of love, how would we all TRULY APPRECIATE "LOVE" and since GOD IS LOVE, how would we every TRULY appreciate God? We really wouldn't, you guys. We HAVE to experience the contrast. It makes sense to me, when I see it this way. Every horrible thing that happens, all of the bad things that people do.... the horrific suffering, it all has one root cause "lack of love". If humans had treated the earth better, there would be a lot less dis-ease. Everything has a cause and effect. Every little thing trickles down. When we don't "love" whether it be love others, love the earth, love nature and what God has lovingly provided to us, love animals, love water, love your neighbor.... it all trickles down. We HAVE to learn this fully. The opposite is true as well. When we LOVE each other... the world can be a beautiful place. When we love others in different cultures, the world can be a beautiful place. There is STILL a lot of beauty in this world, because there is still a lot of LOVE in this world. We're all unique and we're all learning things in different ways. We're all threads in a tapestry. We can't see the full picture of the tapestry right now, but we will when we pass over back to our REAL HOME. and it will all make sense. We will see that this was nothing more than a schoolyard. Who knows, maybe we CHOSE to come here to learn. Maybe there are trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of spirits and maybe only 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 of those spirits decided to (or were chosen) to come here and put on this little "flesh suit" and live this life and create this "tapestry of learning" for all the rest of the trillions of spirits (our brothers and sisters) who are still in our REAL HOME. You never know. What if THAT is the case...? That's kind of an awesome thought, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder....
What we will learn, is that LOVE is the most powerful thing and nothing, ever again will "threaten" our REAL HOME. ever. Because we will have learned the lesson. We will UNDERSTAND love. I think that this life, no matter how atrocious us humans let it get... this life will serve an ultimate purpose. The worse it gets, the deeper the lesson. Like I said in another thread:
And I believe that this life, the learning about love... is why we're here in the first place. A study in contrasts, if you will.I believe that we are all brothers and sisters. Living in a world where we are dealing with love and hate, good and evil. But we have to trudge through this schoolyard called earth in order to understand LOVE. To understand God. I kind of think everything is going to make sense to us one day. Even the most vilest of human suffering... not that it was supposed to happen, but it did happen, and it will be used in a way that will help everyone. Maybe it will be used to teach us about forgiveness. I don't know. I always tend to see stuff in weird ways, like I imagine on the other side of this life... slaveowners dying and God appears as a black man to them. The slaveowner falls on the ground to his knees trembling, Then a bunch of former slaves surround God and help the man up. The power of love and forgiveness will snuff out and completely annihilate that "power" that man yielded while he was on earth. Because his "power" was driven by a basic lack of love. Love is the most powerful thing. Nothing can overpower LOVE. NOTHING! It's so amazing. And I think we'll find that out. I pretty much think that's one of the main reasons we're here going through the motions of this weird life.
So that, some things happening, and we ask ourselves why.... but that's ok... you should ask WHY?! but I have full faith, that EVERYTHING happening, great and small will serve an ultimate purpose. I believe God is showing us there is NOTHING..absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G is MORE powerful than LOVE!! We are learning this, on a small scale, while we are HERE on earth, and on a grand, majestic, amazingly awesome, unbelievable scale when we pass over into the next life and can see the big picture. THAT is what will knock our socks off.... the knowledge of just HOW powerful LOVE is. It overcomes ALL. GOD IS LOVE.
The lesson is that anything that isn't "love" is worthless. Powerless. Alway ends up in destruction.
It comes down to a very BASIC lesson. Like the little kid who eyes the red burner on the stove, he just wants to touch it!! It's such a pretty color, and it looks powerful! just.have.to.touch.it!!!!!! and he is told over and over again, it's nothing. It will only ultimately hurt you. It looks neat, but it isn't at all. Then one day he finally reaches out and touches it... DESTRUCTION!! Didn't mama tell you...?
Well, we had to find out for ourselves didn't we? Once you saw what it really was, you never once felt the need to touch that stove ever again. Because you learned. The stove ceased to have any power over you at all. No matter how brightly it burns... you could care less, you see it for what it REALLY is. Same with love and evil. (remember evil, in my eyes, is just "lack of love" or "perceived lack of love".)
Anyway, this was very long and very rambling... but I just want you to know that I understand where you're coming from. I've been there.
((( hugs ))) to you...
love,
sparrow
p.s. Our ability to see the beauty in this world and to hold onto love is what our loving Father wants us to do, I believe. Those who sink so far down.... and commit atrocious acts against theirselves and against their neighbor... God doesn't want that. But like I said, I think it just has to play out to the end. Love as much as you can in this world, and help to make this world a more beautiful place. Don't get stuck in the horrors of this world, do what you can do to create more love. Learn the lesson on a small scale while you're HERE. Help those who are down so low, because remember... why are they down so low??? LACK OF LOVE. Yes, this world needs more love. So just because things are horrible, do what you can do to improve things in your part of the world by loving others. And just remember that this is all just a temporary place until we go back home. It's just a schoolyard. Keep things in persepective. Let your heart be filled with hope and love others.
Awesome Sparrow.......I needed to read that today! Thanks for sharing this from the heart!