what kind of choice is 'accept me or suffer unimaginable sufferings'?

[claypot]

hello all, for a moment or two please try to think like people who believe in an eternal hell.

is the popular orthodox belief a choice between believing in God with all your heart, soul and mind or suffer like crazy! some of these people say God will not force Himself upon anyone but giving a choice that says 'love me of suffer' seems like force.

think about it.............you meet someone you want to marry. you say to them 'you have a freewill choice. love me, marry me or be tortured.'

how would that work do you think?

isn't this the offer in orthodox circles?

what if the offer from God was 'love me and be happy or don't love me and be happy.'? what would our choice be? would we take the time to deal with all this bible and theology baggage or would we just live life?

[WhiteWings]

An atheist doesn't reject God because he or she likes going to hell. Not only because they don't like to be tortured but also because they don't believe in hell.

[claypot]

you miss the point of my questions.

is our only options to love God or suffer?

[rosered]

 
  I think all this is just a moment   [our lives are but a vapor...] our carnal mindedness is DEATH .. [flesh and the lusts of the pride of life is already condemned/judged as a   broad   and fruitless  path  .
  But it is the "hour of trial "   that comes upon the whole world .........
  Your hour is your life    , and  the test is   this to me , If you love God the world will hate you and put you to death .  that is to say the same sufferings of Christ and taking up your cross and bearing it  .. no one is above his Master  .  the narrow path that leads to Life  in  the Father .....

  But if you love the World    God will , let sin be its own  master over you .

The problem of evil is  this to me  ,   everyone wants the best of both worlds , but scripture states, you will love one and hate the other  as a Master , it is deciding   on a certain  Day which one you will  serve ...
  you have to let go of one  or the other ....

Let  go and  let  God   or keep on trying to rule   your own heart ..  and that man of sin is trying to  be like God ,  but will fail and fall from great   heights  every time  he climbs up some other way but though Jesus Christ ..

  Just my thoughts Claypot and WW  ...   :2c: 

 

[eaglesway]

Beautiful post rosered,

and I heartily agree with it in its entirety.

:iagree:  :iagree:

Claypot, I love your question and the line of logic that springs from it.

If I was to tell someone, "If you won't love me, I will torture you" i would be a monstrosity, whether I realized it or not.

As a matter of fact I have had someone say to me, "If you will not love me I will torture you" in not those exact words, but through their actions, and it was a horrible experience :o)

To present God in this way, to the world, is truly awful.

Someone might confuse this however with, "If you do evil I will discipline you in just measure, to get your attention, so that I can reveal the beauty of love to you".

They are not the same two statements.

"If you insist, I will let you torment yourself until you turn to me for forgiveness" would be anoither statement that could be confused with , "If you don't love me I will torture you"...... but they are not the same.


"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"

[claypot]

great words and i thank you. i am in a mood to be real honest with God and frankly it scares me. this is why........

i see people praising God in almost a trace like way. i picture Jesus sitting next to me and i ask Him......do you really like or want or need all this stroking? crude but again i am in a be honest mood.

i wonder if it should be God praising us for hanging in there with all this sin we have to deal with. we didn't ask to come into this mess. we inherited this sin nature. we are the ones who are dealing with it daily. God set all things in motion knowing full well the consequences. we are the subjects.

now you know why i get scared but it is refreshing to be honest.

[eaglesway]

I think when the praise and worship is honest, the cloud of it is a place of contact with God, and an experience of union and harmony in Him. As far the scriptures go, prayer and worship can be powerful weapons.

On the other hand, God takes no pleasure in the worship of those who have no heart to help the needy and the suffering- so I think He is often indifferent to what we see in worship and we may sense that, and the lack of fellowship with Him is discernible in the lack of fellowship (real koinonea) among the saints.

I think God could care less about stroking. He just want union. "That you may be one as I and the Father are one..... that your joy may be full."

Honest questions and doubts open up exploration and are often led by the Spirit, even when they scare us.

"What is the source of my question, What alternate conclusions should I search for, Where am I trying to go in my heart?"


"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us."

"Well Done my good and faithful servant".

When we are well done, we get a lil dried out sometimes. We get well done passing through the fire.

[jugghead]

Hello Claypot, it is so nice to hear from you again, I see the Lord has been busy with you these last few months.

Questions are: "the darkness upon the face of the deep" from which all light will be revealed

If we are not asking questions we are not seeking

Blessings

[marie glen]

An atheist doesn't reject God because he or she likes going to hell. Not only because they don't like to be tortured but also because they don't believe in hell.

Sometimes, they don't or can't believe, in part because of 'hell'!

Or like the OP, such a God makes no sense... and, or, is one they cannot believe in nor love.

----------------

And amen to this thread..

One day our heavenly Father will shine through all.. and it will be natural to offer up burnt offerings of praise and prayer, like a sweet smelling savor rising up, which benefits Him not at all, but benefits us.. as "He inhabits the praise of His people" - During this sojourn can, i believe, slice through all manner of gloom.

Worship and praise being like us being batteries and being recharged.. whether in a group, or solitary.. whether 'noisy' or in quietness..
:2c:

[darryl]

I find most of the ones who say they believe in eternal hell do little to warn folk against it...they're happy n almost smug they believe they arent going there but ok with others going who they deem 'rebellious sinners'.... I find this very strange and feel it betrays their cognitive dissonance ...

[Dandelion]

Hell, for many, is the 'other side of the railroad tracks', where the 'bad dudes' go.

We must never forget that there is no true love, without forgiveness, and when we truly forgive, it makes us equal.

The slate is wiped clean. All that is left is that we are all one in Christ. Christ forgave us, and asks us to do the same. He hung on that cross, so we would be forgiven.

D.

[eaglesway]

I find most of the ones who say they believe in eternal hell do little to warn folk against it...they're happy n almost smug they believe they arent going there but ok with others going who they deem 'rebellious sinners'.... I find this very strange and feel it betrays their cognitive dissonance ...

I think one reason you do not hear them warning against it is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to that doctrine in their hearts. Altho they may not recognize that, there is a substantial deficit of godly energy for the preaching of eternal torment in all but the most indoctrinated Pharisees of fundamentalism and pentecostalism.

[rosered]

I find most of the ones who say they believe in eternal hell do little to warn folk against it...they're happy n almost smug they believe they arent going there but ok with others going who they deem 'rebellious sinners'.... I find this very strange and feel it betrays their cognitive dissonance ...

I think one reason you do not hear them warning against it is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to that doctrine in their hearts. Altho they may not recognize that, there is a substantial deficit of godly energy for the preaching of eternal torment in all but the most indoctrinated Pharisees of fundamentalism and pentecostalism.

  Amen John!!
  I  do believe  many do not understand a basic fundamental fact   that hell is basically the grave /death and to be carnally mined is DEATH .  and the HOLY SPIRIT ALWAYS  TESTIFIES TO LIFE  in the SPIRIT and not in the flesh :HeartThrob:

To me the continual confusion is the translation of hell in the new testament as being the  Hell fire of eternal judgment

is not all as  intended    for the human condition  , it is already judged to  corruption and decay by a very short time God has destined it to be .
    But is the chastening fire of  Gods Word to make the spirits of just men made perfect .
Every son received is  chastened of the Lord and  scourged    , this is part of   Gods consuming fire , those fiery trials are to  test   us though faith  in what to put our trust in , GOD ALONE     to me ..

I do belive the problem is  judging the outward appearance of things     and knowing by reading the WORD OF GOD   it is an inward working of Gods Spirit purifying our hearts  as the law is written  on them by Gods fiery law   from HIS RIGHT HAND Which is the Lord JESUS CHRIST and this baptism  is of Holy Sprint and Fire ...
.The Majesty of God
1Now this is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the sons of Israel before his death. 2He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them/ a fiery law     with smoke and thunder etc ... 3"Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words....


I believe the carnal nature fears the fire , but  when you read this according the  Spirit in a man it is  the perfecting or completing of the saints /holy ones  , not by  strength or my might but by MY SPIRIT  says the Lord ...
  Zech 4 The Gold Lampstand


...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?"

And I said, "No, my lord."

6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. 7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"...

IT IS THE PROMISE OF GRACE  WE ARE SAVED !!!
  Every last one  , but each in their own order ...

Many cannot see the Forrest for the trees   nor are waiting on the Lord  , when we do  rest in this hope   will will never  be ashamed , but believed GOD !!! ...   :dsunny:
THIS IS  THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS    not to be overcome  by the world , but overcome though the promises of GODS  WORD &SPIRIT , Till the Lord comes and judges in righteousness  all things  , being that you are the temple of the Living God , God with us ,,,,,, REV 14 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Jeremiah 51:33
For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor At the time it is stamped firm; Yet in a little while the time of harvest will come for her."

Joel 3:13
Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great.


I have always believed  two things the cross of Jesus Christ would  do , and that is destroy the works of the devil  , that being murder & death  from the lie in the beginning and  the captivity of Babylons spirit  in the end  setting the prisoners free  from a prideful spirit  holding them captive that is the intimation or false christs  anointing that comes in HIS  NAME but HE never knew them ..     ..

it is done   Rev 21 A New Heaven and a New Earth
...5And the One seated on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are faithful and true." 6And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life.

7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son....

The fire of Gods consuming , For He is a jealous God   and will not give His glory to another   ,  will make many thirsty  whom come though this great tribulation  period of Gods cleansing   power  on the earth by His own Word & Spirit  surely  it will come to each and every one of us  as , it is written, Gods Word will never return to Him VOID    but will accomplish  as He sends it forth ...
  Isaiah 55  11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

  :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:

[darryl]

I find most of the ones who say they believe in eternal hell do little to warn folk against it...they're happy n almost smug they believe they arent going there but ok with others going who they deem 'rebellious sinners'.... I find this very strange and feel it betrays their cognitive dissonance ...

I think one reason you do not hear them warning against it is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to that doctrine in their hearts. Altho they may not recognize that, there is a substantial deficit of godly energy for the preaching of eternal torment in all but the most indoctrinated Pharisees of fundamentalism and pentecostalism.

good point.

[MusicLover123]

I find most of the ones who say they believe in eternal hell do little to warn folk against it...they're happy n almost smug they believe they arent going there but ok with others going who they deem 'rebellious sinners'.... I find this very strange and feel it betrays their cognitive dissonance ...

I think one reason you do not hear them warning against it is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to that doctrine in their hearts. Altho they may not recognize that, there is a substantial deficit of godly energy for the preaching of eternal torment in all but the most indoctrinated Pharisees of fundamentalism and pentecostalism.

.

good point.

[rosered]

I find most of the ones who say they believe in eternal hell do little to warn folk against it...they're happy n almost smug they believe they arent going there but ok with others going who they deem 'rebellious sinners'.... I find this very strange and feel it betrays their cognitive dissonance ...

I think one reason you do not hear them warning against it is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness to that doctrine in their hearts. Altho they may not recognize that, there is a substantial deficit of godly energy for the preaching of eternal torment in all but the most indoctrinated Pharisees of fundamentalism and pentecostalism.

.

good point.

  Yes indeed , I do call it stunted  spiritual growth   , after going back several years later to a little church   of hell fire and brimstone preaching , I  was not angry , but saddened   by the lack of spiritual growth .Broke my heart to be there , I prayed for deliverance as God had helped me  to flee  from that   SAME captivity of fear and torment ..

The scriptures that come to mind was Jesus telling us that  EVEN , WHAT YOU THINK  YOU HAVE as salvation , even that,   what you seem to have will be taken away from you Matt 25

  I can only see this as a prideful Babylonian spirit    that they have saved themselves and that they beat others to be made in their image also , so that they may glory in others peoples flesh , boasting great things ...
Our warning  is this to me ,,,
  Matt24  42Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come.

43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him.

45Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the others their food at the proper time?

46Blessed is that servant whose master returns and finds him doing his job.

47Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

48But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, 'My master will be away a long time.'

49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.

50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect.

51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  With the wine of violence and  force do they expect you to be  just  like them , accusers of the brethren in the day[light of knowledge ] and night [in darkness and ignorance ]    before God  almighty ..   

  It is a terrible  thing and hurtful thing  to go though ,  Many just want to die  and be free  of the torment  in their own minds

I have since learned   , let no man teach you , but ASK  the HOLY SPIRIT , and   WILL DO THE PERFECT JOB  adding the grace
needed , of convicting you of sin and chastening you as you are received in Gods kingdom  and   comforting you  by which you will change  and be conformed into the IMAGE  OF HIS   DEAR and precious  SON ...    :HeartThrob:

Love   though mercy  triumphs over judgment   over everyone  , every time ...

[rosered]

  I had to go , but a few others things come to mind ,

  I thought of   this  that helped me   when I was so full of doubts and what to believe and not believe and hope it helps others too 

Jesus come to destroy the works of the devil  , what is the devils works than ?   working death in us ...is it really that simple to understand ?  I was never sure about that ..

  To accuse before God  his creation   and   the big one   the lie  , making us doubt God !!
Did God say , You shall not surly die ?

  The thing that got me most  was no matter how much I try to save myself  by being good  and keeping ALL  the law which was impossible  after reading some of them in Leviticus   and all the old testament  requirements  .

Than I get to the part where Jesus says  you break one law you broke them ALL !!

I thought we are all doomed !!   

Than I began to see it was the Spirit that gives us Life , and has nothing to do with the lust of the flesh,  that is doomed already   from the start  . reap what you sow , the flesh is corruption  , always corruption that everyone is planted in   vanity  and corruption , Adam died   and as in Adam all die ...but  what about the soul/ life in the Spirit  , God would give us not only His Spirit but His Sons also!!   

  Understanding  this concept was a great help  ..
and the scripture  TRUTH WAS   ,,, Living in the Spirit


8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.




9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness....

I questioned this as  how  does one know the Spirit of God lives in them  , everyone ? and saw the answer in Acts 17 22Then Paul stood up before the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription:

TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'a As some of your own poets have said, 'We are His offspring.'b 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man's skill and imagination.

30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead."

32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some began to mock him, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this topic." 33At that, Paul left the Areopagus. 34But some people joined him and believed, including Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others who were with them.

  being  planted in corruption and being raised up  incorruptibly  by the  RESURRECTED  SPIRIT OF HOLINESS TO GOD ..Father and Son  union  , gathering all things unto Himself   till God be all in all ...

...Col 1 The Supremacy of Christ
...19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,

20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds....22But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—

23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

It is awesome how all the scriptures answer  the questions in other places , that come up by reading   the WORD ...

Encouraging everyone to read  this wonderful  Word for themselves    and ask God for the  truth  that sets you free   from corruption and doubts and  fear of Gods   wrath  but  love for us all  , each and every one  :HeartThrob:

[MusicLover123]

  I had to go , but a few others things come to mind ,

  I thought of   this  that helped me   when I was so full of doubts and what to believe and not believe and hope it helps others too 

Jesus come to destroy the works of the devil  , what is the devils works than ?   working death in us ...is it really that simple to understand ?  I was never sure about that ..

  To accuse before God  his creation   and   the big one   the lie  , making us doubt God !!
Did God say , You shall not surly die ?

  The thing that got me most  was no matter how much I try to save myself  by being good  and keeping ALL  the law which was impossible  after reading some of them in Leviticus   and all the old testament  requirements  .

Than I get to the part where Jesus says  you break one law you broke them ALL !!

I thought we are all doomed !!   

Than I began to see it was the Spirit that gives us Life , and has nothing to do with the lust of the flesh,  that is doomed already   from the start  . reap what you sow , the flesh is corruption  , always corruption that everyone is planted in   vanity  and corruption , Adam died   and as in Adam all die ...but  what about the soul/ life in the Spirit  , God would give us not only His Spirit but His Sons also!!   

  Understanding  this concept was a great help  ..
and the scripture  TRUTH WAS   ,,, Living in the Spirit


8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.




9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness....

I questioned this as  how  does one know the Spirit of God lives in them  , everyone ? and saw the answer in Acts 17 22Then Paul stood up before the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription:

TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'a As some of your own poets have said, 'We are His offspring.'b 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man's skill and imagination.

30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead."

32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some began to mock him, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this topic." 33At that, Paul left the Areopagus. 34But some people joined him and believed, including Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others who were with them.

  being  planted in corruption and being raised up  incorruptibly  by the  RESURRECTED  SPIRIT OF HOLINESS TO GOD ..Father and Son  union  , gathering all things unto Himself   till God be all in all ...

...Col 1 The Supremacy of Christ
...19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,

20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds....22But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—

23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

It is awesome how all the scriptures answer  the questions in other places , that come up by reading   the WORD ...

Encouraging everyone to read  this wonderful  Word for themselves    and ask God for the  truth  that sets you free   from corruption and doubts and  fear of Gods   wrath  but  love for us all  , each and every one  :HeartThrob:

:goodpost:

I especially love this:

I questioned this as  how  does one know the Spirit of God lives in them  , everyone ? and saw the answer in Acts 17 22Then Paul stood up before the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription:

TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'a As some of your own poets have said, 'We are His offspring.'b 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man's skill and imagination.

30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead."

32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some began to mock him, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this topic." 33At that, Paul left the Areopagus. 34But some people joined him and believed, including Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others who were with them.

  being  planted in corruption and being raised up  incorruptibly  by the  RESURRECTED  SPIRIT OF HOLINESS TO GOD ..Father and Son  union  , gathering all things unto Himself   till God be all in all

And this:

...Col 1 The Supremacy of Christ
...19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,

20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds....22But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—

23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

It is awesome how all the scriptures answer  the questions in other places , that come up by reading   the WORD ...

Encouraging everyone to read  this wonderful  Word for themselves    and ask God for the  truth  that sets you free   from corruption and doubts and  fear of Gods   wrath  but  love for us all  , each and every one  :HeartThrob:

Blessings  :dsunny: