What is "satan"?

[Zeek]

Deu 19:17  Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

Deu 19:18  And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Deu 19:19  Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Deu 19:20  And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Deu 19:21  And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.



Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:10  Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.



interesting article here

http://www.presence.tv/cms/con-out-of-darkness.php

[Zeek]

and another here

http://www.presence.tv/cms/finalbattle.php

[sparrow]

ok, so let me expand on my question willie...  :happygrin:

I guess what I'm really wondering about is..
- if our spirit does not go on to be with God when we die....   why not? Why must we be "turned off" and "tuned out" in a sense for a season? Sure, the same second we die, would be virtually the same second we are resurrected, even if it was 5,000 thousand years that we lay dormant, because it would seem instantaneous.
So.... why must our spirit lie dormant? I don't understand this viewpoint. and I would really like to understand it.

And then, when do all our spirits spring out of this dormant state?
and what happens then?





Just some points I wanted to add to your points..because I do think we agree on this:

Judgment is for instructional purposes. Judgment (rain) falls on ALL. Cause and effect.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust. We are ALL, BOTH just and unjust at the same time. There aren't a group of people who are "just" and then another group of people who are "unjust". We are all both.
The rain (judgement) falls on all. Some times it falls on us in and it is "just" because we perhaps did something to bring it about. We lie to someone, the person finds out, the person is hurt.... we are dealing with these feelings, this judgment, this "Fire". The person we lied to, just had "rain" fall on them "unjustly". But BOTH can learn from it.

I think we are all going to possibly learn from every life lived.

[martincisneros]

I've seen something quite a few times that wasn't the expression of the carnal nature or anything like that.  So, if Satan doesn't exist, per anyone's preferences on this thread, then I know for sure about the existence of Gargoyles 'cause I've seen them.  There is a 1Corinthians 12 operation of the Holy Spirit called the discerning of spirits, and I'm fully persuaded from how that operates in my life and ministry with real regularity that there's more than human and animal spirits, and that I'm not looking at something figurative, metaphorical, or allegorical.  I've seen blond Archangels pin somebody to the wall that tried to walk in the room, whether I was sharing the Word or simply praying the prayer of faith and interpreting other tongues according to the measure of my faith.  Whether a rose or a devil by any other name, I'm certain is the same; that it simply is what it simply is, even if someone wants to be deep about claiming there's no duality in the universe.  Came too late to bring me that philosophy.  I've seen the oddest things that you wouldn't think would be totally resolved with simply enforcing Satan's defeat and binding, although I understand the natural recoil of some 'cause not everything has a demonic origin or root.  It's amazing what happens when you simply take the Bible literally and imitate the faith and patience of those that have inherited any aspect of God's promises.

I was watching a debate that was on tv not that long ago debating the existence of Satan...with carlton pearson (guy ive been listening to alot of sermons of lightly) was on the "non existent" side of satan.

So does he exist? surely he is talked about in the Bible...but in what way does he exist...what IS he really? is he a red guy with pointy horns and a pitchfork, is he a blue eyed bald woman in a black robe(passion of christ lol) or is he more figurative than that? a projection of our own sinful nature perhaps? Ive read some things that have debunked the "falling angel" story about him...so its called in the question what he really is.


thoughts?

[Pierac]

Hi WillieH,  :hihat:

The conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD...  Satan only answered a question,

Maybe so, but that's not what's happening here in Job.   :2c:

ONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...

But this is not what's happening.... Indeed, Satan is not counseling, just answering a question was he not?  Your not suggesting God was talking to himself?


Paul 

[Pierac]

The Christadelphians (A Group who do not believe Satan is a physical being) are unable to agree about the identity of the Tempter of Jesus. Most contemporary Christadelphians insist that Jesus was talking to Himself in the wilderness. Apart from the difficulty which this raises about the sinlessness of the Lord, it is arbitrary in the extreme to say that when Matthew reports that the Tempter "came up to Jesus and spoke" (Mat. 4:3), he meant that Jesus' own mind produced twisted versions of the Scriptures. Matthew ends the description of the Temptation by saying that the Devil departed and angels "came up to Him" (Mat. 4:11) to minister to Him. On what principle of interpretation can we justify taking the words "came up to Him" in two totally different senses in the same paragraph? Where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation? It is most unnatural to think that Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself? If the departure of Satan means the cessation of human nature's temptation of Jesus, why may not the arrival of the angels be no more than the comfort of the spirit of God within Him?! Can anyone fail to see that the treatment of Scripture which the Christadelphians propose in this passage involves the overthrow of the plain meaning of language?

The older Christadelphians are rightly indignant that anyone could suggest that Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by His own mind. One Christadelphian writes: "Some think that the devil in the case of the temptation was Christ's own inclination; but this is untenable in view of the statement that 'when the devil had ended all the temptations, he departed from Him for a season.' It is also untenable in view of the harmony that existed between the mind of Christ and the will of the Father (John 8:29). It might be added also that it is untenable because a tempter or devil, i.e. one who attempts to seduce to evil, is invariably a sinner (Matt 18:7, RSV) whether it is oneself or another.... [This is] illustrated also in Mark 4:19: 'The lusts of other things entering in choke the word.' Lusts, then, that 'enter in' and 'draw away' (James 1:14), being not legitimate desires...are forbidden and therefore sin. Jesus was not thus 'drawn away' or inclined from the right and consequently could not have been the devil or 'satan' in the case. The devil was obviously a sinner who aimed to divert Jesus from the path of obedience and wrested the Scriptures (Ps. 91:11,12) in the attempt. So that those who believe that Jesus Himself was the 'devil' and Satan [i.e. fellow Christadelphians] make Him a sinner, their protestations notwithstanding" (The "Devil" and "Satan" Scripturally Considered, by E.J.R.M., pp. 14, 15).

Pulled from  Anthony F. Buzzard  who gives a detailed account on this topic....
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/satan.htm


Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister S...  :cloud9:

Hope I can convey to you what I believe...  sometimes it is hard to put into words... :mblush:

ok, so let me expand on my question willie...  :happygrin:

I guess what I'm really wondering about is..
- if our spirit does not go on to be with God when we die....   why not?

I have never said that "our spirit" does not go on to be with God...

My belief is this... When man becomes a "LIVING SOUL"... the BREATH of GOD is combined with the FLESH...  The "spirit" that you or I might consider as "ours" is not ours at all.  It is HIS... and when we DIE... the soul that was realized by the combination of the TWO... goes to SLEEP... That is why there are DEAD in CHRIST...

If "Christians" --- NEVER DIE --- (which goes against Heb 9:27), then HOW are there "Dead IN CHRIST" -- "SLEEPING in JESUS"?  As stated in -- 1 Thess 4:13-16 

Btw... the word "SLEEP" as used in 1 Thess 4:13,14 & 15 -- 1 Cor 15:51 is KOIMAO [#G2837] which means ...DEAD...

And the word "DEAD" as used in 1 Thess 4:16 is NEKROS which is also found (to name a few of many places) in Matt 22:32 -- Mk 12:27 -- Luke 20:38 (concerning GOD) ...and Luke 24:46 -- Rev 1:18 (concerning CHRIST)

Let's face it... Paul is saying people that believe, DIE in CHRIST... They DO NOT "go to Heaven"...  We could argue the point until we are all DEAD, but it will happen anyway, irregardless of anyone's desire to AVOID it...  GOD told ADAM (and ALL DIE in ADAM), that He would RETURN to the DUST... Gen 3:19 (not "go to Heaven")

Since you wish to know what I believe, might I further say that we do NOT "spend" any TIME in the GRAVE... We become DISASSOCIATED with TIME at the MOMENT of DEATH... Only those who OBSERVE our DEATHS note TIME in association WITH IT...

IOW... ADAM has NOT "spent" even ONE SECOND of TIME, ...DEAD.  He is DORMANT.  As are ALL who DIE.  We cease involvment with TIME.  Ecclisiastes is quite thorough about explaining this for anyone who might wish further definition. 

Ecc 3 defines that which "goes on" in TIME, and NO ONE that is "DEAD" does ANY of these things... (dance, weep, build-up, embrace, love, speak, ...etc ...you get the idea! :wink:)

In Ecc 9:5-6 ...PLAINLY states that those who enter DEATH, do not have a PORTION (active part) in ANYTHING that is "DONE under the sun"... That which is "DONE" under the sun, are the ACTIVITIES of TIME.

It further states that JUDGMENT exists IN TIME -- Ecc 3:16 --- I saw UNDER THE SUN, the PLACE of JUDGMENT, that wickedness was THERE...

Why must we be "turned off" and "tuned out" in a sense for a season?

The vessels of DISHONOR, are active IN TIME... the vessels of HONOR are active IN ETERNITY... there is separation between the FINITE/EVIL realm, and the INFINITE/HOLY realm...  This TIME realm is the "AREA" of DEFILEMENT, used to indicate by our interactive experiences with IT and one another, ...the KNOWLEDGE.

Once the KNOWLEDGE is indicated in each... each is REMOVED from TIME... in DEATH... exiting TIME, to the ETERNAL from whence we ALL entered this realm, and where we ALWAYS ARE, and have ALWAYS BEEN.  :dontknow:

Sure, the same second we die, would be virtually the same second we are resurrected, even if it was 5,000 thousand years that we lay dormant, because it would seem instantaneous.
So.... why must our spirit lie dormant? I don't understand this viewpoint. and I would really like to understand it.

It IS instantaneous... for NO awareness of the passage of TIME is percieved by the DEAD.

Our "spirit" is that portion of YHVH that we ARE.  It is NEVER dormant.  However, the SOUL of man who each came into this realm and found DISHONOR, ...DIES... and until ALL have walked this course, ...NONE... are aware of the SPIRIT of HONOR which is found in that ETERNAL portion of YHVH that we ARE...

We each "spend" ZERO TIME dead... we each however, are BORN into, and DIE from the realm of TIME, in varying points within it.

And then, when do all our spirits spring out of this dormant state?
and what happens then?

Our SOULS re-emerge into the ETERNAL realm @ resurrection... SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Even though we ENTER and EXIT TIME at different points IN TIME... the ETERNAL realm has NO such POINTS as ENTRY and EXIT... for an ENTRY is a beginning, and an EXIT is an END, ...our existence in ETERNITY just IS...  (This is hard to explain, because I am FINITE as well as are you... attempting to relate my vision of this matter!  Forgive me if it sounds confusing...  :blush: )

We do not spend "TIME" in ETERNITY, for TIME is not a parameter or measurement, OF IT...

When you stick your foot in a pool of water, are you not both IN and OUT of the water at the same TIME?  Can you be considered both WET and DRY simultaneously because your "foot" is in the water, but the rest of you is NOT? 

I believe (albeit as finite as anyone else) it is within a similar principle (please allow for  my own finite limitations to be considered as I try to convey this) that we are both IN TIME and IN ETERNITY... simultaneously... For we are each portions of YHVH (being His TEMPLE and the BODY of CHRIST = His DWELLING place) for He IS ...ALL in ALL... and HE never changes... but just as we might stick our foot" in the water... does He dip EACH of us in the REALM of TIME, to learn the KNOWLEDGE of G & E...

Just some points I wanted to add to your points..because I do think we agree on this:

Judgment is for instructional purposes. Judgment (rain) falls on ALL. Cause and effect.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust. We are ALL, BOTH just and unjust at the same time. There aren't a group of people who are "just" and then another group of people who are "unjust". We are all both.
The rain (judgement) falls on all. Some times it falls on us in and it is "just" because we perhaps did something to bring it about. We lie to someone, the person finds out, the person is hurt.... we are dealing with these feelings, this judgment, this "Fire". The person we lied to, just had "rain" fall on them "unjustly". But BOTH can learn from it.

I think we are all going to possibly learn from every life lived.

Nicely said Sparrow... I agree we are all going to learn from every life lived, for we are all PART of one another... the BODY of CHRIST, CHILDREN of YHVH, and TEMPLE of the LIVING GOD...

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

The conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD...  Satan only answered a question,

Maybe so, but that's not what's happening here in Job.   :2c:

That is your  :2c: and you are welcome to spend it however you choose, bro... But to say "THAT is NOT what's happening here in Job"... is only that  :2c: expressed, ...and nothing more... The fact you say that it is "NOT what's happening here in Job"... certainly does NOT prove that this claim, ...is true...  :dontknow:

ONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...

But this is not what's happening.... Indeed, Satan is not counseling, just answering a question was he not?

Paul!  ..."satan" suggests to GOD (a "suggestion" is an "advisement"):

Job 2:5 "but put forth THY HAND now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse THEE to THY face."

And WHAT happens then Paul?  I'll tell you what happens -- GOD, complies with this suggestion of "satan":

Job 2:6   And YHVH said unto "satan" behold he is in thine hand, but save his life...  :dontknow:

Sorry bro... we next see the "SUGGESTION" was then carried out:

Job 2:7  so went '"satan" forth from the presence of YHVH, and smote JOB with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown

And so the suggestion was thereby carried out... meaning that GOD complied with "satan"... and thereby was ADVISED by "satan"...

If indeed it is as you observe... however... as I said earlier...

Because you refuse to see this with your  :2c:  Does not make it so!  :laughing7:

Your not suggesting God was talking to himself?

Paul

And WHY NOT?  :dontknow:  We ALL, ...OFTEN, ...have such conversations with ourselves, do we not?  In our THINKING and SILENT inner selves...  :JCThink:

MANY things occur, which are not outwardly and AUDIBLY noted to others, BY US...  We are made in HIS IMAGE... that we "think things over" and "mull over the choices we have"... As I see it, this is evidence to me that HE does the same... (albeit in a far larger sense)...

Before He created everything... do you think it just all, "popped out of Him"? ...or is it likelier that He "thought out the whole thing?"  If not, why are we ADVISED by HIM to "count the costs?" before entering into a given thing... WISDOM, does not RUSH INTO things, it considers BEFORE it acts...

Luke 14:28 -- For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down FIRST, and COUNTETH the COST, whether he hath sufficient to finish it?

Are we "crazy" because we converse inwardly?  Of course not... and neither could GOD be considered such, as HE considers beforehand, what THAT which, He does...  :mnah:

The "trying" of Job makes MUCH MORE sense, that GOD observed Job as righteous, but without having been tested,  and then proceeds to TEST him... for our benefit, and an example for us to see...

We are TESTED often in life, as well... not by some mythical being named "satan", but in the FIREY and "BRIMSTONEY" -- trials of life, presented by YHVH...

Which is also WHY, we are NOT to worry... but to TRUST, during the times of TESTING, that we are in HIS HAND... and HE shall carry us to deliverance from that trial...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Doc]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

The conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD...  Satan only answered a question,

Maybe so, but that's not what's happening here in Job.   :2c:

That is your  :2c: and you are welcome to spend it however you choose, bro... But to say "THAT is NOT what's happening here in Job"... is only that  :2c: expressed, ...and nothing more... The fact you say that it is "NOT what's happening here in Job"... certainly does NOT prove that this claim, ...is true...  :dontknow:

ONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...

But this is not what's happening.... Indeed, Satan is not counseling, just answering a question was he not?

Paul!  ..."satan" suggests to GOD (a "suggestion" is an "advisement"):

Job 2:5 "but put forth THY HAND now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse THEE to THY face."

And WHAT happens then Paul?  I'll tell you what happens -- GOD, complies with this suggestion of "satan":

Job 2:6   And YHVH said unto "satan" behold he is in thine hand, but save his life...  :dontknow:

Sorry bro... we next see the "SUGGESTION" was then carried out:

Job 2:7  so went '"satan" forth from the presence of YHVH, and smote JOB with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown

And so the suggestion was thereby carried out... meaning that GOD complied with "satan"... and thereby was ADVISED by "satan"...

If indeed it is as you observe... however... as I said earlier...

Because you refuse to see this with your  :2c:  Does not make it so!  :laughing7:

Your not suggesting God was talking to himself?

Paul

And WHY NOT?  :dontknow:  We ALL, ...OFTEN, ...have such conversations with ourselves, do we not?  In our THINKING and SILENT inner selves...  :JCThink:

MANY things occur, which are not outwardly and AUDIBLY noted to others, BY US...  We are made in HIS IMAGE... that we "think things over" and "mull over the choices we have"... As I see it, this is evidence to me that HE does the same... (albeit in a far larger sense)...

Before He created everything... do you think it just all, "popped out of Him"? ...or is it likelier that He "thought out the whole thing?"  If not, why are we ADVISED by HIM to "count the costs?" before entering into a given thing... WISDOM, does not RUSH INTO things, it considers BEFORE it acts...

Luke 14:28 -- For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down FIRST, and COUNTETH the COST, whether he hath sufficient to finish it?

Are we "crazy" because we converse inwardly?  Of course not... and neither could GOD be considered such, as HE considers beforehand, what THAT which, He does...  :mnah:

The "trying" of Job makes MUCH MORE sense, that GOD observed Job as righteous, but without having been tested,  and then proceeds to TEST him... for our benefit, and an example for us to see...

We are TESTED often in life, as well... not by some mythical being named "satan", but in the FIREY and "BRIMSTONEY" -- trials of life, presented by YHVH...

Which is also WHY, we are NOT to worry... but to TRUST, during the times of TESTING, that we are in HIS HAND... and HE shall carry us to deliverance from that trial...

...willieH  :cloud9:

I understand what you're getting at here, Willie, and I think I tend to agree with you, at least to a point. My question though, is that if this is God talking to himself, what do we make of the passage that says that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all? (We know from Isaiah that He creates evil, but it is an entirely different matter to suggest that He contains evil within Himself) Also, what does the verse; "I have created the waster to destroy" mean in the context you're suggesting?

Any enlightenment here would be appreciated.  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi again, Paul :hithere:

The Christadelphians (A Group who do not believe Satan is a physical being) are unable to agree about the identity of the Tempter of Jesus. Most contemporary Christadelphians insist that Jesus was talking to Himself in the wilderness. Apart from the difficulty which this raises about the sinlessness of the Lord

Why in the world would CHRIST's "sinlessness" be called into question by this? 

CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5 and James 1:14 that EVERY MAN (which INCLUDES CHRIST)... is tempted by the desires which emerge from the flesh... TEMPTATION does NOT EQUATE to SIN... SIN is born, at the INDULGENCE of the TEMPTATION... (lust "CONCIEVING")

it is arbitrary in the extreme to say that when Matthew reports that the Tempter "came up to Jesus and spoke" (Mat. 4:3), he meant that Jesus' own mind produced twisted versions of the Scriptures.[/color] Matthew ends the description of the Temptation by saying that the Devil departed and angels "came up to Him" (Mat. 4:11) to minister to Him. On what principle of interpretation can we justify taking the words "came up to Him" in two totally different senses in the same paragraph?

Sorry, but it is argueable that "came UP" is the proper wording... the KJV notes "came" (no "up" -- which seems to suggest LOCATION)

NON PERSONAGE -- Matt 4:3  and when the tempter ...CAME... to Him, he said, if thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

PERSONAGE -- Matt 4:11  then the devil leaveth Him, and behold ANGELS ...CAME... and ministered unto Him...

For example:

IDEAS "come" to me as I write songs... they are NOT PERSONAGES... and IN THOSE VERY MOMENTS, ...my wife "comes" to me with a sandwich in the studio... which IS a PERSONAGE...

Your observation is that which is EXAGGERATED and EXTREME as I see it Paul (no offense)

Where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation? It is most unnatural to think that Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself?

Again, I disagree for CHRIST was TEMPTED ...AS... are we... (in the SAME MANNER) Heb 4:15

JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5

And EVERY MAN is tempted via the same procedure:  James 1:14

JESUS did not "invite Himself" to SIN... His HUNGER (after a 40 day/night FAST) which is of the FLESH, called to Him and the POWER within Him, which He KNEW He had, and which was definitely available to Him, and easily afforded Him the capability of "making the stones, bread"...  :dontknow:

This is an ELEMENTARY observation bro... you are beyond this!  :dontknow:

We ALL have our "human nature" coming unto us DAILY "speaking" this or that to us in our minds... get real Paul!  You can't turn on a TV without SUGGESTION being made to your MIND, on an almost CONTINUING basis... Or driving by BILLBOARDS, or hearing humans converse... Please!

"Falling down" to "WORSHIP" is to INDULGE oneself in that which one KNOWS is contrary to the COMMAND of GOD -- thereby "worshipping" the disobedience, instead of the COMMAND, ...this is an aspect which is INHERENT in the nature of men, and was so from the BEGINNING of the Human race...

If the departure of Satan means the cessation of human nature's temptation of Jesus, why may not the arrival of the angels be no more than the comfort of the spirit of God within Him?! Can anyone fail to see that the treatment of Scripture which the Christadelphians propose in this passage involves the overthrow of the plain meaning of language?

Don't know about these "Christadelphians", dont care...  Their observations are theirs, mine are mine... if they agree, fine... "agreement" doesnt matter...  :dontknow:

HUNGER is a human experience that can find "cessation" aside from SUPERNATURAL means.

IMO it is you which are trying to create something in the TEMPTATION of CHRIST which is NOT there, and is ANTI-Scriptural...  :dontknow: ...in order to keep alive, your agreement with the Orthodox, and Traditional Christian position that "satan" is an (OMNIPRESENT) "being" (which is NOT noted as a "being" within the WORD)

The older Christadelphians are rightly indignant that anyone could suggest that Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by His own mind. One Christadelphian writes: "Some think that the devil in the case of the temptation was Christ's own inclination; but this is untenable in view of the statement that 'when the devil had ended all the temptations, he departed from Him for a season.' It is also untenable in view of the harmony that existed between the mind of Christ and the will of the Father (John 8:29). It might be added also that it is untenable because a tempter or devil, i.e. one who attempts to seduce to evil, is invariably a sinner (Matt 18:7, RSV) whether it is oneself or another.... [This is] illustrated also in Mark 4:19: 'The lusts of other things entering in choke the word.' Lusts, then, that 'enter in' and 'draw away' (James 1:14), being not legitimate desires...are forbidden and therefore sin. Jesus was not thus 'drawn away' or inclined from the right and consequently could not have been the devil or 'satan' in the case. The devil was obviously a sinner who aimed to divert Jesus from the path of obedience and wrested the Scriptures (Ps. 91:11,12) in the attempt. So that those who believe that Jesus Himself was the 'devil' and Satan [i.e. fellow Christadelphians] make Him a sinner, their protestations notwithstanding" (The "Devil" and "Satan" Scripturally Considered, by E.J.R.M., pp. 14, 15).

"Rightly" indignant Paul?  Says you... :rolleye:

What a bunch of "out-of-the-way" rambling is this?  You are wandering far from the discussion... this  TOPIC is not about the conflicting philosophies of "Christadelphians" which have garnered your "discussion attention"... it is about "What is satan"...

It does not matter that some of these older Christadelphians think on this subject, one way and younger others, another... thereby proving your view as true!  Don't make me :laugh:

What TOPICALLY matters here, is the observation of "what is satan"... and all your quotes of the "Christadelphians" and their conflicting theological viewpoints within their obviously divided "religious thought", does nothing to "establsh" YOUR observation of "what is satan"... nor does it serve to "correct" MINE...

That some MEN think one way (which agrees with you), and you thereby attempt to enlist their thinking to cement your viewpoint, is sorrowfully weak bro...   :pitiful:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Pierac]

"Rightly" indignant Paul?  Says you... :rolleye:

No, not me but Anthony Buzzard.  Read my post again.    :dontknow:

What a bunch of "out-of-the-way" rambling is this?  You are wandering far from the discussion... this  TOPIC is not about the conflicting philosophies of "Christadelphians" which have garnered your "discussion attention"... it is about "What is satan"...

It does not matter that some of these older Christadelphians think on this subject, one way and younger others, another... thereby proving your view as true!  Don't make me :laugh:

What TOPICALLY matters here, is the observation of "what is satan"... and all your quotes of the "Christadelphians" and their conflicting theological viewpoints within their obviously divided "religious thought", does nothing to "establsh" YOUR observation of "what is satan"... nor does it serve to "correct" MINE...

That some MEN think one way (which agrees with you), and you thereby attempt to enlist their thinking to cement your viewpoint, is sorrowfully weak bro...   :pitiful:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Just wanted to let you others know that Christadelphians have the exact same view you teach regarding Satan, it's nothing new. I also offered a link to a counter response from Anthony Buzzard. I though you might like to know of a Group that supports your view. But also offer a counter view for those who might want to read both sides of an issue.  :cool:

[sparrow]

Willie.... thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions.
Going to have to read and re-read and ponder that one for awhile. (and probably re-read it again... lol.)
Thanks brother, I appreciate it!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

Just wanted to let you others know that Christadelphians have the exact same view you teach regarding Satan, it's nothing new.

Okay brother P, sorry for misunderstanding you...  :mblush:  ...Of course it is nothing "new" it is the truth, and the truth has no age...  :laughing7:

I also offered a link to a counter response from Anthony Buzzard. I though you might like to know of a Group that supports your view. But also offer a counter view for those who might want to read both sides of an issue. :cool:

That's cool... However, it doesn't matter to me whether or not anyone "agrees" with me... I believe what I believe... and those beliefs are not based on agreements with anything other than the Scriptures... :wink:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

I understand what you're getting at here, Willie, and I think I tend to agree with you, at least to a point. My question though, is that if this is God talking to himself, what do we make of the passage that says that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all?

That GOD is light and "in Him is no darkness at all... means that within Him in the Eternal realm, no darkness is IN HIM... That He created EVIL to be in this realm, and holds the KNOWLEDGE of it, does not mean that there is DARKNESS "in Him"...

We do the things of EVIL and yet -- Acts 17:28 -- "IN HIM we live and move and have our being"  :dontknow:

I believe the statement which notes that "IN HIM, is NO darkness... means that His DOINGS and INTENTIONS are about LIGHT, and making that LIGHT known.  This is done by the EXPOSURE of DARKNESS (which He created) to the LIGHT (which He IS)...

(We know from Isaiah that He creates evil, but it is an entirely different matter to suggest that He contains evil within Himself) Also, what does the verse; "I have created the waster to destroy" mean in the context you're suggesting?

Any enlightenment here would be appreciated.  :thumbsup:

The waster which "destroys" ...is another element which is in DIRECT opposition to GOD who prospers and "creates"... 

In all things, GOD made an OPPOSITE which was set in place to DEFINE its OPPOSITE... North/south -- inside/outside -- Tall/short -- heavy/light -- new/old -- fast/slow -- the list is endless... But ALWAYS in EVERY CASE, an OPPOSITE is necessary to DEFINE its OPPOSITE...  If you just had "UP" what would determine it?  "DOWN", indicates "UP" and vice-versa...  :dontknow:

don't know if I answered your questions Doc... but I tried!  :prankster:  :pointlaugh:

Peace bro...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[legoman]

Thanks for the posts Willie, much to think on there.

One question about the LoF being "now".

How does the elect/non-elect fit into this view?  Are only the elect in the LoF now, and the non-elect will go through the LoF after death?  I don't think everyone reaps what they sow in this life.  If that were true, Hitler would have already received his just judgment... perhaps he did, but I have a hard time seeing it.

Interested in your thoughts.

Legoman

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lego... :hithere:

Sorry ahead of time for the long-windedness of this post...  :blush:

Thanks for the posts Willie, much to think on there.

One question about the LoF being "now".

How does the elect/non-elect fit into this view?

CHRIST was even "tried in FIRE" -- Rev 3:18

Mark 9:49 (a verse no ET person quotes, even though they often quote this part of the NT, but ALWAYS stop, ...at vs 48  :laughing7:):  For EVERY ONE shall be salted WITH FIRE and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Salt is a "flavoring" and a "preservative"...

PAUL notes that we are to be LIVING SACRIFICES -- Rom 12:1 -- and that which is realized in this brand of "sacrifice" abides the FIRE -- 1 Cor 3:14-15

Are only the elect in the LoF now, and the non-elect will go through the LoF after death?

I believe we are ALL in the Lake of FIRE... and that THIS LIFE is that FIRE... FIRE comes in many forms other than the Physical, there is FIRE in passion, FIRE in pain, FIRE in disappointment, FIRE in loss of loved ones, FIRE in teamwork, ...etc ...ALL these are a "burning" of sorts...

There are many verses which allude to THIS LIFE as a FIRE... here are a few:

Rev 3:18 -- CHRIST's "GOLD" was TRIED, in FIRE of THIS LIFE...

Rev 2:18 -- ALL events of THIS LIFE take place before those FIREY "eyes"...

1 Peter 1:7 -- Our FAITH (which is NOW) is "tried" by FIRE, in THIS LIFE...

Eph 6:16 -- The FIERY "darts" are found in THIS LIFE...

I don't think everyone reaps what they sow in this life.  If that were true, Hitler would have already received his just judgment... perhaps he did, but I have a hard time seeing it.

It's okay, don't feel bad about having a hard time seeing, Revelation is a process, and we all walk the pathway as individuals, that lead us to it... what will be, ...will be.

None of us really knows the details of Hitler, or the dealings of God, ...with him, so we are unable to denote that he did not recieve what was "due him"... JESUS specifically instructed to JUDGE NOT... therefore, in the matter of another, ...ANY other (including Hitler), we are to abstain from concluding them, on behalf of GOD... let us leave their JUDGMENT to Him.  My Bible says to FORGIVE enemies... this is become my vision, ...that the "JUDGMENT of GOD"... to FORGIVE, where otherwise is DUE...  :dontknow:

LOVE is devoid of FEAR and TORMENT... 1 John 4:14 -- and there is NO torment or fear wherein is found PEACE...  The GOSPEL ...and... GOD are specifically in the NT, denoted as PEACE --

GOD --  Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL --  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

I believe that GOD is LOVE... and the GOSPEL that I preach is devoid of EVERYTHING but LOVE and PEACE... Good News ONLY... no bad. 

Which is why you shall see from me, that I preach it to be JOY which is to come, and that GRACE does MUCH MORE "abound" wherever SIN "abounded"... That there is not WORSE to come, but BETTER... And that FORGIVENESS for even one such as Hitler... is the Greatest of GLORY that shall ENHANCE our God in our eyes... as even the most "vile" of us, are accepted into His LOVE... displaying the INFINITE length of His LOVING ARMS -- Isaiah 50:2

We as men, call for the "eye for eye", because it is NATURAL to do so... this is WHY there are TWO TESTAMENTS in the Scriptures...  Most do not see this. 

(1)  The OLD TESTAMENT is exactly that, ...OLD.  For it is UNFULFILLED.  It contains the LAW which (righteously) ACCUSES each of us, and which NONE of us can keep.  It demands VENGENCE and KILLING.  It, chronologically, is FIRST in the DIVINE order of YHVH (first the Natural, then the Spiritual 1 Cor 15:46), which makes it the "NATURAL Testament".  It displays MEN dealing with one another in their "eye for eye" hearts... and GOD dealing with them, as they deal with one another.

However...

(2)  The NEW TESTAMENT, is the FULFILLING of the OLD.  Where the OLD, lacked... the NEW FULFILLS... the OLD prophesied, the NEW FULFILLED... the NEW is filled with LIFE, the OLD is filled with DEATH... The NEW brings FORGIVENESS and VICTORY, the OLD breeds FAITHLESSNESS.  The OLD found GOD's people IMPRISONED, the NEW displays the ROAD to FREEDOM.  I could go on for hours about this... for it is so obvious to me, and yet I am often seen as a nut case by many (even here at TM) because my teaching never points to the NEGATIVE, rather always to the POSITIVE.  I see THIS LIFE which is filled with TORMENT and LOSS, eventually DEATH for ALL, as the OLD TESTAMENT, and the one in resurrection and IN CHRIST, and SALVATION to LIFE for ALL, ...as the NEW TESTAMENT...  I am forever bound to this teaching, and gladly so.

Concerning the "sowing/reaping" issue ...we cannot see all the detail of the others life, but GOD does.  Paul says that what we SOW of the FLESH is reaped of the Flesh... And it is GOD's mandate to us to FORGIVE those which persecute and bring harm to us.  Why?  Because THAT is what is to come for ALL...

Part of our JUDGMENT is recieving REWARD... The HIGHEST Reward we can recieve is to be COMMENDED by the MOST HIGH... ("Well done, good and FAITHFUL servant") Not additional swimming pools or, extra cable channels in Heaven!  :laughing7:

Those who receive NOT the COMMENDATION of the MOST HIGH, shall suffer the LOSS of that ETERNAL and EVERLASTING, COMMENDATION...  :dontknow:

Those who gain that very SPECIAL COMMENDATION shall FOREVER realize it in their hearts... It is not just a "HEY -- nice job, dudes" -- thing, said by YHVH at the moment of resurrection, and then eventually, forgotten...

It shall "musically" RING -- ETERNALLY ...the SONG of RIGHTEOUSNESS which was SACRIFICIALLY done by the elect, ...while they were amidst UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... LIGHT shown amidst DARKNESS... TRUTH amidst LIES, ...SACRIFICE amidst INDULGENCE,  ...Again, I could go on for hours about what the "REWARD" really is... and believe me, it is mispercieved by almost everyone, even those who bear the name of the MOST HIGH... expecting extra "bennies" in the Heavenly realm, bound in the carnal and selfish thoughts of this existent plane, ...instead of SEEING and KNOWING the riches of HEAVENLY LOVE.  Picturing GOD as giving "extra" THRONEROOM priviledges to some and leaving the "undesireables" outside the gate... :rolleye:

In reading the Parable of the LOST SON... both of them had lessons to learn, and both recieved the paramount LOVE of the Father... The LOST younger one, is found and celebration is enacted... the Elder one... is steeped in jealousy, and pride, and was taught that the FAMILY was INCOMPLETE without the LOST one... and that ALL ALONG, the riches of the Father were at his service...  :dontknow:  ...the Parable actually not about either Son, but about the LOVE of the Father for BOTH.

I have been married for 33 years.  And I can tell you that I have failed in my marriage many times.  And for each time that I failed my wife, ...if I could, I would have done or said otherwise.  But in those 33 years... I have found a treasure in her LOVE, which actually brought me from the clutches of DEATH during a surgery/recovery process last September.  It was Her LOVE, completely immersed and dedicated, and used by the LOVE of YHVH, that kept me alive on the brink of death.

I, during that FIREY and SORROWFUL trial, got a glimpse of the LOVE which is to come for ALL... and NO DEATH, Torment or Suffering is even REMOTELY associated with it...  :HeartThrob:

No, dear friend... THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE...

Interested in your thoughts.

Legoman

As am I, in yours bro!  :cloud9:

:Peace:

...willieH  :friendstu:

[Doc]

You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

[legoman]

Thanks for the post Willie - I totally agree with you about the fire in this life... I assumed it was the same type of fire as the LoF, but not the LoF itself.  But I am starting to see the possibilities.

For example it always confused me that those who believe get aionios life NOW and this life is to know Christ.  So the elect know Christ now and know (at least some of) the purposes for this life.  The non-elect don't know Christ and lead a purposeless life.  In some ways the life of the "elect" is a burden - you can feel isolated by not being in the "majority" with the world, but on the other hand you get a great sense of peace knowing that there is a reason for everything that is happening.  You can trust that God will work things out for the good of all.  The non-elect have no such hope.  The non-elect pursue things of the world - wealth, power, status, etc. but it always ends up being empty and unfullfilling - and they don't know why - its sad.

Also when it talks about the "saints" judging the world... as I am learning there are many different types of judgment.  For example, we are to love our enemies.  We are to be kind to them as this will be like "heaping hot coals on their heads" - so in this manner the "elect" judges the "non-elect", by doing kindness to them.  This is probably tormenting to an enemy, to have your evil acts repaid with kindness, when he is looking for a fight.

The torment "day and night" in Rev 14:11 makes perfect sense if one supposes the LoF is this life.

Regarding Hitler - perhaps he went through more torment that we know.  He had all the power of his country and army, yet he ended up killing himself.  Probably had ulcers and nightmares....

This is an interesting idea; Can't say I'm on board yet, but I will keep it in mind as I continue my studies.  I'm still working my way through the bible for the first time (since I came to understand UR last year). I'm not sure how everything fits, but eventually I will know one way or another  :Sparkletooth: 

Thanks Willie - I am only 36, have been married 7 years and have a wonderful 4 year old daughter.  I still have a lot to learn, even my daughter is teaching me so much.

Peace.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi doc...  :cloud9:

coupla comments bro...   :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:

This will be PART ONE -- MILLENNIUM :declare: 

This is going to be tough to put into words, so please bear with me,  ...it may take re-reading and a few questions to become clear... sorry, but I am not the best at putting into words, that which I have been given to see...  :sigh:

Might I say that SPIRITUAL understanding of the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, requires the abandonment of the NATURAL... and all parameters that measure things in the NATURAL...

In our endeavor, if we seek SPIRITUAL understanding by applying NATURAL designations upon Him, we unfortunately shall arrive at NATURAL (unspiritual) conclusions. 

It is hard to be a NATURAL man (which we all are), and endeavor to leave yourself and your natural eyes behind, in order to FIND the vision of a being which has NO NATURAL parameters or definition...

Yet, ...IS... the beginning and end of ALL that is in the NATURAL! (alpha & omega)  CHRIST has neither  beginning or end, ...but is BOTH to all that have these FINITE boundaries...

Whew!  :heat:  It is hard even to try to begin or preface a discussion of a subject without a beginning!  :pointlaugh:

You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

MILLENNIUM:  To begin with, the term "MILLENNIUM" is an UnBiblical term... and the "1000" year "age" indicated in the Revelation, ...is completely  SYMBOLIC, not Literal... 

I believe the "1000 years" mentioned in Rev 20 -- is the conversion experience within the DAY of GOD in which all generations exist... Gen 2:4 -- and this "1000 years" does not "follow" any "CHRONOLOGY" of TIME, ...for it is part of the REVELATION (revealing) of a being -- JESUS CHRIST, which has NO "CHRONOLOGY"... 

IOW... how can I use "apple pie" to define "ALGEBRA"?  One actually has nothing to do with the other... TIME has nothing to do with defining the ETERNAL (JESUS CHRIST), and cannot provide definition OF IT (Him).

As I see it, in order to SPIRITUALLY understand the SYMBOLISM within the term "1000 years" as mentioned in Rev 20, we must first abandon the idea and (natural) inclination of  applying NATURAL CHRONOLOGY to it.  For if we apply or attach FINITE and PHYSICAL boundaries (such as time) to this terminology, we shall arrive at an UNSPIRITUAL conclusion concerning it.  (My  :2c:)

The binding of "satan" is done within the FAITH of (and in) men, which is authored by CHRIST (all FAITH -- before and after the manifestation of the life of JESUS CHRIST is authored by Him -- Heb 12:2)...

Those who have had "FAITH authored", ...are no longer decieved by their flesh -- as Paul notes this within himself -- Rom 7:22-25...

"satan" bound is accomplished by CHRIST, within the obedience of those in whom He has "authored FAITH", and thereby submit to the COMMAND of GOD... As He does so in BELIEVERS, this "principality" within the heart of  NATURAL men (still in the FLESH of NATURE), is thereby imprisoned in a "bottomless pit" (representative of forever)... 

Revelation 20:5 which states that the rest of the "DEAD" (which implies that those who "rule and reign" with CHRIST were once "DEAD") lived not until the "1000 years" were FINISHED (complete), ...means that when FAITH is completed in the ELECT in this time realm... then shall ALL others find LIFE... which is found exclusively  IN CHRIST -- John 14:6

"satan" loosed... is within the (unbroken circle) DAY of GOD, in which ALL generations exist, ...in ALL directions simultaneously, ...is the "place" where skeptics, unbelievers, athiests, pagan religions, etc... are found existent... OUTSIDE, before and after those who are CONVERTED.

Remember, as I noted earlier... CHRONOLOGY must be abandoned in order to get the  Revelation vision of a being [JESUS CHRIST] which is NOT SUBJECT to it...

IOW... CHRIST exists in ALL directions... no beginning or ending... an "unbroken CIRCLE" is the best illustration I can muster... The observance of an unbroken circle notes no beginning or ending.  Just a continuing circle with neither of these parameters applicable to it. 

Rev 20:7 -- notes that when the "1000 years" are "expired" (which means COMPLETE)... then is "satan" loosed to decieve.  This "COMPLETION" is done Believer, by Believer... IOW -- Prior to AND after, Paul's conversion took place -- "satan" was LOOSE... but withIN the CONVERSION was "satan" BOUND...

Paul recognized this process (1000 yrs) within himself in Romans 7... as he deduced in describing his own experience, that "satan" was his flesh, WARRING against the inward man CHRIST...

The inward man was COMPLETE (1000 yrs) in him, ...yet even though he (Paul) was now set to DO as he willed, the FLESH in which he lived, would make WAR against that "will", and at times be victorious -- Rom 7:25 = "satan" LOOSED again...

I wish to comment on the "BEAST" and "FALSE PROPHET", but will do so in another post, this is enough for now... But these TWO entities (in my observation) are absolutely NOT what Orthodoxy indicates them to be...

Talk2ya later bro...  :HeartThrob:  Got to go finish recording a song I am working on...

...willieH :cloud9:

[Doc]

Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

[Taffy]

Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[Doc]

Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I can see that a 1000 years is likened to a day in scripture (and the other way around), so I can see how the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation could be referring to a 'day' or 'the day' of the Lord, yes.

[willieH]

Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I can see that a 1000 years is likened to a day in scripture (and the other way around), so I can see how the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation could be referring to a 'day' or 'the day' of the Lord, yes.

right on!   :goodpost:  In all my blabbering I forgot to include this element, thanks Graham & Doc!

Btw, Doc... I didn't take your mention of "millennium" as arguementative... What I meant to convey was that I see red flags when doctrinal things are built upon UnBiblical terms...

And the common Orthodox vision of the "1000 years" mentioned in Revelation, is observed strictly as a LINEAR (period of time) entity in their thought and perception... which distracts from the observation of it as a SYMBOLIC term...   :dontknow:

...willieH :cloud9:

[Doc]

Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I can see that a 1000 years is likened to a day in scripture (and the other way around), so I can see how the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation could be referring to a 'day' or 'the day' of the Lord, yes.

right on!   :goodpost:  In all my blabbering I forgot to include this element, thanks Graham & Doc!

Btw, Doc... I didn't take your mention of "millennium" as arguementative... What I meant to convey was that I see red flags when doctrinal things are built upon UnBiblical terms...

And the common Orthodox vision of the "1000 years" mentioned in Revelation, is observed strictly as a LINEAR (period of time) entity in their thought and perception... which distracts from the observation of it as a SYMBOLIC term...   :dontknow:

...willieH :cloud9:

I wasn't sure you thought I was arguing, but I wanted to be sure you understood that I wasn't.  :thumbsup:
Anyway, lets go with the thought that the 1000 years are the day of the Lord. Who are those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, and who is it that doesn't live again until the 1000 years are ended. Are the rest of the dead physically dead or spiritually dead? And, is the first resurrection physical or spiritual or both?

Thanks!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

****note... I got some things I must attend to, but I wished to get this answer to you, so if you see editing done, re-check it, as I always like to re-read what I have composed, before putting it on the board, and I may have a "tweaking" here or there that might be in order, or which was intended...  :cloud9:

In order to explain to you how I see this bro... I must refer you to my belief that I believe that we have ALWAYS BEEN... For YHVH never changes... which means that He never "becomes" something that He is NOT, for if He "BECAME" something, then He was NOT this "before" which would thereby denote CHANGE in Him... Also,  He IS (eternally remains) ...ALL in ALL... therefore, our ETERNAL existence preceeded this one... for we therefore, ALWAYS ARE part of HIM and He of us...

Though few have seen this, IMO this is clearly made evident in the following Scriptures...

Not only by the fact that YHVH never changes, but because of these verses:

Luke 15:11-32 The story (parable) of the LOST SON... notes that the LOST SON was WITH the Father to BEGIN with, ...THEN left and,  ...THEN came back... one cannot RETURN to a place one has not previously BEEN...  :dontknow:

Also, Job 38:7 notes that ALL the SONS of GOD shouted for Joy at the Creation... The word ALL means total, and the word SONS is the universal Hebrew word BEN which means SON or offspring... and is used throughout the OT in all references to  SONS and within GENEOLOGIES... and is always translated SON or SONS...

This verse states that ALL SONS were there... so they (we) were!

This is why it says (as you quote below) the rest of the DEAD lived not ...AGAIN... The word AGAIN implies that the DEAD were (spiritually) alive before they "became" DEAD... (for God is the FATHER of SPIRITS - Heb 12:9)

If you would keep those things in mind, here are my observations:

I wasn't sure you thought I was arguing, but I wanted to be sure you understood that I wasn't.  :thumbsup:

:2thumbs:

Anyway, lets go with the thought that the 1000 years are the day of the Lord. Who are those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, and who is it that doesn't live again until the 1000 years are ended.

The notation --- "REST of the DEAD"... implies that the ones in the "first resurrection" -- and thereby "members of the "1000 year grouping", ...were once part of this "DEAD grouping"...  :dontknow:  For they are part of the Human race as a whole.

CHRIST noted LIVING human beings as DEAD to the Apostles, who were also part of this ["DEAD"] group before CHRIST was revealed to them.

ALL resurrection is found IN CHRIST... for "resurrection" itself essentially means that one is entered into DEATH (absence of LIFE)... and now RISEN from it...

The "1000 years" again, is not a "chronological" period of time... Those who are part of the "first resurrection", are those who dwell IN the "1000 years"... It is "resurrection" to those who are become aware of WHO is LIFE... John 14:6 -- the "chosen" who are become REVEALED of the LIGHT, ...while... amidst the darkness...

Are the rest of the dead physically dead or spiritually dead? And, is the first resurrection physical or spiritual or both?

The "REST of the DEAD" who "lived not again, remain DEAD until those "chosen" (1st to be "WORD" REVEALED) are completed (1000 years ended)... and are those who are yet to "live again" -- or "be REVEALED".

The "second resurrection" includes ALL those who have not yet received the REVELATION as to "WHO" is LIFE (this would include almost ALL of the JEWS -- the "Natural branches", as well as most of humanity)... and thereby have gone THROUGH THIS LIFE, without that Revelation...

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, is Him REVEALED in each of the Children of YHVH... (God has NO RESPECT of persons - partiality)

The "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" ...is the WORD of YHVH, emerging from within the human HEART which is His THRONE and DWELLING place...

...willieH  :cloud9: