What is "satan"?

[NinjaWizards777]

I was watching a debate that was on tv not that long ago debating the existence of Satan...with carlton pearson (guy ive been listening to alot of sermons of lightly) was on the "non existent" side of satan.

So does he exist? surely he is talked about in the Bible...but in what way does he exist...what IS he really? is he a red guy with pointy horns and a pitchfork, is he a blue eyed bald woman in a black robe(passion of christ lol) or is he more figurative than that? a projection of our own sinful nature perhaps? Ive read some things that have debunked the "falling angel" story about him...so its called in the question what he really is.


thoughts?

[Jerm]

I saw that show too, pretty interesting to watch.  (Was kind of hard to listen to Mark Driscoll though, since I can't stand the guy)  Anyways, I personally do not agree with Carlton Pearson as far as Satan being a metaphor.  I do believe that there is in fact a literal, spiritual being known as The Satan (The Advesary.)  As far as exact details on him, that I do not know.  I don't whether he was an angel who rebelled against God or if he was created the way he is.  What I do know is that 1) His role and function is, as the name suggests, to be the Advesary, both to mankind and to God and 2) Even though he is a powerful enemy, he is not all powerful as some have depicted him.  We see in Job that Satan is under the complete control of God and can do nothing without his permission.  That's all I know and believe at the moment.  Hopefully some of our other members will have a better answer.

P.S. Love your avatar pic, his solo album was awesome!!!

[WhiteWings]

Things where so easy when I never opened a Bible.  It's a real person. Immortal and great powers. To much Hollywood I guess :laughing7:

Then I learned satan is the part of us that opposes (the laws of) God. But what part? I always assumed the dark side of our Spirit. But now I think that can't be true either because satan is always referred to as an he. And AFAIK a Spirit is a she. ???

Hopefully some of our other members will have a better answer.

I hope so too. But I'm fairly certain there won't be any real proof presented. Similar debates raged on and on in the past.
All sides supporting their own view. But IMO none of them presented the proof (verses) that ended the debate.

[Cardinal]

Things where so easy when I never opened a Bible. 

:cloud9: rofl......opened up a whole new world didn't it?

I remember not too long after opening it after coming to Him when He started to rock my world with revelations, I cried out to Him one night, "I feel like I'm losing my mind! Everything I thought was the truth is a lie and everything I thought was a lie, is the truth!"

He spoke plain as day, "I'm returning you to the dust!"  :mshock:

I said to myself...."OH sheet, it's worse than I thought!"  :mblush:

A few months later I discovered what the concordance in the back of my Strong's was actually FOR (I had just been using it to look up scriptures)  :mblush:, and my first word study was on the word "DUST". Whew! Glad we cleared THAT up.  :laughing7: Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

He spoke plain as day, "I'm returning you to the dust!"  :mshock:

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:coepFApzWnKKkM:https://www.evacuumstore.com/images/dirt-devil.gif)


Post the study notes little devil  :bgdance:

[Jerm]

I hope so too. But I'm fairly certain there won't be any real proof presented. Similar debates raged on and on in the past.
All sides supporting their own view. But IMO none of them presented the proof (verses) that ended the debate.

Yep.  Also considering that there's an infinite number of ways of looking at one verse, let alone a bunch of them, I seriously doubt an all time consencence will be met.  Still, should be interesting to see what comes up.  By the way WhiteWings, did you happen to see the Dateline episode NinjaWizards777 was talking about and if so, what did you think?

[NinjaWizards777]

I saw that show too, pretty interesting to watch.  (Was kind of hard to listen to Mark Driscoll though, since I can't stand the guy)  Anyways, I personally do not agree with Carlton Pearson as far as Satan being a metaphor.  I do believe that there is in fact a literal, spiritual being known as The Satan (The Advesary.)  As far as exact details on him, that I do not know.  I don't whether he was an angel who rebelled against God or if he was created the way he is.  What I do know is that 1) His role and function is, as the name suggests, to be the Advesary, both to mankind and to God and 2) Even though he is a powerful enemy, he is not all powerful as some have depicted him.  We see in Job that Satan is under the complete control of God and can do nothing without his permission.  That's all I know and believe at the moment.  Hopefully some of our other members will have a better answer.

P.S. Love your avatar pic, his solo album was awesome!!!

I tend to disagree with carlton on this as well(though from listening to his sermons i find I agree with him on virtually everything else, wonderful guy to listen to).
Whether its a result of my fundamentalist background I tend to believe in demons and satan pretty literally. But since coming to UR ive really just felt open to other interpretations...other perceptions, and try to see if there is something more that I havent seen on other subjects as well, you know? If the mainstream theology has salvation and Gods love for us all backwards, what else is backwards too? you cant help but ask that question.

Im not sure honestly on this subject, I plan to read a book or two on the matter when I get a chance

P.s yes it is a pretty good cd, i also enjoyed his book

[WhiteWings]

By the way WhiteWings, did you happen to see the Dateline episode NinjaWizards777 was talking about and if so, what did you think?

Dateline? Dating show? :laughing7:
Haven't seen it. I'm not living in the USA.

But I can say this. Unless some really really convincing things are said on that show my answer would be: I still don't know.

You know, you don't convince me with a few verses. I only stop doubting if all relevant verses align.
All verses are true. If they don't align... well either a translation error or lack of understanding.

[WhiteWings]

Just one of my most current toughts on this.

In Revelation we read there is a war and satan is defeated and locked up for a thousand years.
During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)
When Satan gets released again for a short while trouble starts all over again.
So just looking at that it appears Satan is some "person".
But it also shows humanity is easily walks towards the dark. Even if it has enjoyed 1000 year of light.

Reading a little more I see that satan is defeated a second and final time. Only then he's cast in LoF.
At that time we see that also sinners are cast in LoF. (all have sinned) Also there are verses that show fire is good.
Salt is good. Everyone is salted with fire.

So now one of my often changing conclusions on this subject is:
We all have our dark side. Our little part of satan.
In those 1000 years God simply fully suppresses that dark side. (satan is chained)
But the dark side is still present and waiting for its release after the 1000 years.
Trouble.
Then finally God takes drastic and everlasting measure. All darkness is burned out in LoF
10 billion pieces of satan get wiped out in that lake.

Time for some bottled spirit  :Party:

[sparrow]

Just one of my most current toughts on this.

In Revelation we read there is a war and satan is defeated and locked up for a thousand years.
During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)
When Satan gets released again for a short while trouble starts all over again.
So just looking at that it appears Satan is some "person".
But it also shows humanity is easily walks towards the dark. Even if it has enjoyed 1000 year of light.

Reading a little more I see that satan is defeated a second and final time. Only then he's cast in LoF.
At that time we see that also sinners are cast in LoF. (all have sinned) Also there are verses that show fire is good.
Salt is good. Everyone is salted with fire.

So now one of my often changing conclusions on this subject is:
We all have our dark side. Our little part of satan.
In those 1000 years God simply fully suppresses that dark side. (satan is chained)
But the dark side is still present and waiting for its release after the 1000 years.
Trouble.
Then finally God takes drastic and everlasting measure. All darkness is burned out in LoF
10 billion pieces of satan get wiped out in that lake.

Time for some bottled spirit  :Party:

Very interesting, whitewings...
I think I may see it in a somewhat similar manner.

Now... the question is....


When are these 1000 years?
Is it figurative, literal??

Is the "kingdom" here NOW? Is the world slowly being transformed NOW?
So many rely on this 2nd coming of Jesus... is that reality?
Or is the kingdom being rebuilt NOW amongst the darkness??
So many, who don't care about anything, (such as environmental concerns, animal abuse, human abuse, slavery, etc.) because they are expecting everything to very quickly just *poof* be transformed because "Jesus is coming soon".

Is this true? Or is the kingdom slowly in the process of being transformed and it will take a LONG LONG time?
And then once it is transformed (through the knowledge of God being made shown to human's hearts and therefore this CHANGE in their heart, this LOVE in their heart that is slowly evolving, slowly becoming stronger is really how things are going to be TRANSFORMED)?


I would love to believe that Jesus will one day just literally appear and we are transformed...
but I don't think that is how it really is. That kind of makes me feel.... blah.
But I'm just trying to think of this in the more realistic, what makes sense terms.

[WhiteWings]

When are these 1000 years?
Is it figurative, literal??

I would say literal because all prophesies are fulfilled with great accuracy.
So why would Revelation suddenly be different? Just because Revelation concerns us?

Is the "kingdom" here NOW? Is the world slowly being transformed NOW?

Unless it started this afternoon I would say: No.
Sparrow. Just pick up a history book. Read a news paper. Watch the news.
What do you see? Nothing but trouble. The only thing that's done in times of peace is building 'better' stuff to kill others.

So many rely on this 2nd coming of Jesus... is that reality?
Or is the kingdom being rebuilt NOW amongst the darkness??
So many, who don't care about anything, (such as environmental concerns, animal abuse, human abuse, slavery, etc.) because they are expecting everything to very quickly just *poof* be transformed because "Jesus is coming soon".

You just said it. There is no sign of *poof*
I only see things getting worse. USA starting war talk again against Iran. Israel isn't very quiet either.
Whatever you think of it I'm sure you don't call it part of the *poof* :winkgrin:

Is this true? Or is the kingdom slowly in the process of being transformed and it will take a LONG LONG time?

No speaking totally against what I wrote above..... Don't really care. All I do is writing down my thoughts.
Jesus rules a 1000 years (with a rod of iron) and puts everything under His foot.
That doesn't sound like a *poof* victory but a long process towards peace.

And then once it is transformed (through the knowledge of God being made shown to human's hearts and therefore this CHANGE in their heart, this LOVE in their heart that is slowly evolving, slowly becoming stronger is really how things are going to be TRANSFORMED)?

Sounds like a fake transformation to me.
All is quiet at/near the end of the end of Jesus. Then satan starts all over again.
If at that time the world was full of people that really are like Jesus then satan quickly would feel very lonely with his war talks noone listens to. But Revelation shows many will listen and many will wage war against Christ.
I know that sounds Jesus failed in those 1000 years.
I'm not really meaning to say that. Lets just say I don't really understand....
Perhaps God at the closing of the millenium of Jesus hold some speech. I gave you 7000 years with and without all kind of rules/kings/judges/grace and finally a perfect King (Jesus) and still you didn't learn. Now I'm going to burn the evil out.

Well that are just some thoughts of which I can only backup a small part with verses.
So nothing more than human reasoning. Waste of time :winkgrin:

[sparrow]

hmmm. yeah, I really just have no idea.

And yes I know how horrible things are out there...
BUT... we are also pretty much only SHOWN the horrible things.
The news has a way of manipulating.

Are we being manipulated into complacency?

These are just things I wonder about.

I just don't know...

I just really have no idea what I'm talking about, really.

Just putting some thoughts out there.

[Akira Takahashi]

For me, I believe that Satan does exist, but I have a hard time describing anything beyond that.  It reminds me of another thread I once started regarding the nature of Hell.  Is Hell an eternal holding place for sinners who never found Jesus?  Why were Satan and his demons supposedly thrown into there if it didn't hold them?  Is Hell a seperate place from where Satan dwells?

So what is Satan?  I can tell you first off that he was once Lucifer and God's favorite angel.  I can also tell you that he decided to start his own little mutiny and got kicked out of Heaven.  I'm pretty sure that he spends all his time now trying to torture God by deceiving us, etc.

Now, I don't think I believe that Satan can ever win.  By that I mean that I don't think he can forever hold our souls hostage.  God will always win out in the end, but I do believe that he uses his temporary hold on us to try and tick God off.  This is purely speculation on my part and would require an entire essay to explain myself properly, but that's my take on it.

Then there is the symbolic Satan.  This Satan acts as a reflection of our own faults and our own guilt.  Kind of like what people often call, "The demons in our lives."  Most of the time, we don't mean literal demons (although I believe that they exist also), and that is another definition of Satan.

I'm going way off track and am on the border of rambling.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Before I answer, know that I loveya, and intend no offense to you bro... but,

I would like to voice that the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is a SPIRITUAL (not LITERAL) matter... and the actual meanings of the WORDS in this book will NOT be understood as LITERAL, you are welcome to disagree... but if you do, you will find out otherwise one day...

If we take ANY of the terms in this book LITERALLY, then we must take them ALL literally... No "picking & choosing"...  and we therein blatantly DISREGARD it from its beginning, by dismissing the instruction plainly given in the first chapter of the book -- Rev 1:1 -- for the book states itself as SIGNIFIED by GOD -- which means it was/is revealed via SIGNS or imagery...

If we take a term such as the "1000" years literally, then we must, to name just a few:

(1) do we take the "half hour"  silence in Heaven -- in Rev 8:1 as 30 Literal minutes? (wow! their lunch breaks are as short as ours!) ...as well as

(2) the THIRD of the waters of the earth will become Literal WORMWOOD as a Literal "STAR" (which is the actual word for a STAR in the Heavens)... named WORMWOOD falls into them, as is noted in Rev 8:11... (It'll probably make a pretty BIG SPLASH dontcha think?  :laughing7: ) ...and,

(3) a Literal Sea of GLASS (wonder if there are any "glass fish" swimming in it?) and an EYE-filled BEAST (hope he doesn't need glasses!)... as noted in Rev 4:6

And many many more, which "literally' moves us into the BROAD area of NONSENSE...   :pitiful:

In Revelation we read there is a war and satan is defeated and locked up for a thousand years.

The "war" between GOD and "satan"... is figuratively done in the literal... How's that for a little "him-haw"?  :laughing7:

"satan" is not a being, so the war fought against this ADVERSITY (which is what the Hebrew word "satan" means) is that which Paul names in Rom 7:23... this "war" is going on in all of us... NOW!

For example:  It is the very battle that is being fought in one trying to quit smoking... The mind decides it wants to quit, but the BODY, says otherwise.

During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)

Again, this is NOT a "clock/calendar" measurement.  It is part of the REVEALING of a being which HAS no such parameters...

The "1000" years is the DAY of GOD...

When Satan gets released again for a short while trouble starts all over again.

Again, bro, no offense but this is of the same variety as the argument of "going to heaven" at death!  We "go to heaven" then are "reinserted" into our bodies that rise... Please!

I certainly do not claim to know everything about the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... but one thing I DO KNOW is that it is a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL book, which "Literally" disqualifies it from being LITERAL...

So just looking at that it appears Satan is some "person".
But it also shows humanity is easily walks towards the dark. Even if it has enjoyed 1000 year of light.

Think about it WW... As a little kid, if you burn your hand on the stove... do you stick your finger on the burner again?  Just to see if the circumstance might change?  C'mon... There is SPIRITUAL meaning in these WORDS, which can only be REVEALED by GOD... and taking them "Literally" is to dispose of His help... for any ATHIEST or believer in an opposing religion, can get as much out of this as any "Believer"...

If GOD's WORDS are reduced to the "Literal", then who needs "SPIRITUAL" help from GOD?

Reading a little more I see that satan is defeated a second and final time. Only then he's cast in LoF.
At that time we see that also sinners are cast in LoF. (all have sinned) Also there are verses that show fire is good.

"satan" is the ADVERSITY within MEN who have ALL been cast into the Lake of FIRE which is THIS LIFE...

Salt is good. Everyone is salted with fire.

THIS LIFE is the FIRE that ALL are salted with... Mark 9:49 --

So now one of my often changing conclusions on this subject is:
We all have our dark side. Our little part of satan.
In those 1000 years God simply fully suppresses that dark side. (satan is chained)
But the dark side is still present and waiting for its release after the 1000 years.
Trouble.

:omg:  Now you are sounding like you are taking a SYMBOLIC view of these things!

...willieH  :cloud9:

[legoman]

Wow willieH,

You have said some things here which are making me think.  I'm not sure what to make of it, if I'm taking things too literal or not. I have considered some of these ideas before, but they don't seem to fit with some scriptures.

"satan" is not a being, so the war fought against this ADVERSITY (which is what the Hebrew word "satan" means) is that which Paul names in Rom 7:23... this "war" is going on in all of us... NOW!

During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)

Again, this is NOT a "clock/calendar" measurement.  It is part of the REVEALING of a being which HAS no such parameters...

The "1000" years is the DAY of GOD...

This is interesting.  Is the millenium literal or a moment in our life?

"satan" is the ADVERSITY within MEN who have ALL been cast into the Lake of FIRE which is THIS LIFE...

THIS LIFE is the FIRE that ALL are salted with... Mark 9:49 --

So are you saying there is no being who is Satan - it is only our carnal selves?  I have seen this idea before, but it doesn't seem to fit.  Eve was tempted by the serpent in Genesis - was it just her dark side tempting her?

What about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

Also (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

I'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

Is there some articles/web pages that talk about this more? Thanks for any info on this willieH.

Legoman

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Akira... :hithere:

So what is Satan?  I can tell you first off that he was once Lucifer and God's favorite angel.

Where does it ever say this in the WORD, Akira? (1) That SATAN is or WAS, ever "LUCIFER"? (2) that "satan" was an ANGEL?  (3) that "he" was GOD's favorite?  (especially when GOD has no respect of persons!)

I can also tell you that he decided to start his own little mutiny and got kicked out of Heaven.

Again... where in the WORD is this stated?  In your pastor's memoirs maybe?  Or a "CARM" tract?

To think that "satan" started a "mutiny"... is to note GOD as a "tinkering" creator, which just hasn't "worked out the bugs"...  :mnah:

I'm pretty sure that he spends all his time now trying to torture God by deceiving us, etc.

More words with no substanciation...  :shakepoint:  Where is it stated that "satan" -- "spends time"?  Or that "satan" (noted as a being) even has an "involvement in TIME"?  :dontknow:

Now, I don't think I believe that Satan can ever win.  By that I mean that I don't think he can forever hold our souls hostage.  God will always win out in the end, but I do believe that he uses his temporary hold on us to try and tick God off.

Where is it ever stated that "satan" ...ticks God off?  :dunno:

"satan" posed as an "ANGELIC being" is the creation of THEOLOGIANS... the proprietor of "HELL", the arch-enemy of GOD, who for NO REASON, "rebelled" and got thrown out of Heaven...

If this actually occured, what is to keep it from re-occuring?  :rolleye:

The TRUTH is, that these things NEVER happened, and are misobservations made of NATURAL minds, of SPIRITUAL texts...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi legoman!   :cloud9:

Wow willieH,

You have said some things here which are making me think.  I'm not sure what to make of it, if I'm taking things too literal or not. I have considered some of these ideas before, but they don't seem to fit with some scriptures.

Scriptural observation is that which determines ones viewpoint... That certain Scriptures don't fit a given viewpoint, does not mean they are not a true vision of them...

I have ET believers telling me daily, that the Salvation of ALL MEN is not a Scriptural teaching, yet when I ask them to explain the verses which plainly state it, they find ways to sidestep them, by adding or subtracting from them...

"satan" is not a being, so the war fought against this ADVERSITY (which is what the Hebrew word "satan" means) is that which Paul names in Rom 7:23... this "war" is going on in all of us... NOW!

During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)

Again, this is NOT a "clock/calendar" measurement.  It is part of the REVEALING of a being which HAS no such parameters...

The "1000" years is the DAY of GOD...

This is interesting.  Is the millenium literal or a moment in our life?

ALL GENERATIONS take place within the DAY of the creation of GOD which is NOW -- Gen 2:4 -- ALL things that were part of the Creative work of GOD, were done by the conclusion of the 6th Day --  The SABBATH has NO beginning (morning) or end (evening)... and in the SABBATH are ALL THINGS found COMPLETE. 

CHRIST is the SABBATH rest of YHVH in which ALL THINGS are complete.

Gen 2:1 ...Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ALL the host of them

"satan" is the ADVERSITY within MEN who have ALL been cast into the Lake of FIRE which is THIS LIFE...

THIS LIFE is the FIRE that ALL are salted with... Mark 9:49 --

So are you saying there is no being who is Satan - it is only our carnal selves?  I have seen this idea before, but it doesn't seem to fit.  Eve was tempted by the serpent in Genesis - was it just her dark side tempting her?

Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.

What about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

If you read the text... GOD proposed the whole she-bang!  It is GOD who brings these things upon JOB... (adversity speaking)

Job 2:5 -- Put forth THINE HAND now and touch his bone and his flesh and he will curse THEE to THY FACE...

Also (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

I believe there is no "lake of FIRE" at the conclusion of this life...

I firmly believe that THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE... in which ALL DEATH, the 2nd DEATH (physical) and the GRAVE (hell) were cast...

I'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

If you have specific questions, I shall try my best to answer them...

Is there some articles/web pages that talk about this more? Thanks for any info on this willieH.

Legoman

My beliefs are not based upon "articles" written by others, so I have no web links to refer you to.  However I do have many agreements with J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach and L. Ray Smith... I can provide their links if you wish, but I do have a few differences with them as well...

The best way is to share the conclusions I have made in my studies, with the Scriptures they are based upon...

I don't have time right now, but I will be happy to answer any questions concerning the Lake of FIRE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[legoman]

Hi Willie, thanks for your reply.

Scriptural observation is that which determines ones viewpoint... That certain Scriptures don't fit a given viewpoint, does not mean they are not a true vision of them...

Agreed.  That is what I am trying to figure out - if I am totally missing the spiritual application of some scriptures - which I probably am.

ALL GENERATIONS take place within the DAY of the creation of GOD which is NOW -- Gen 2:4 -- ALL things that were part of the Creative work of GOD, were done by the conclusion of the 6th Day --  The SABBATH has NO beginning (morning) or end (evening)... and in the SABBATH are ALL THINGS found COMPLETE. 

CHRIST is the SABBATH rest of YHVH in which ALL THINGS are complete.

Gen 2:1 ...Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ALL the host of them

This I can see, but I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.

I can sort of see this.  Satan is like our inner voice that convinces us its OK to eat the forbidden fruit.

What about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

If you read the text... GOD proposed the whole she-bang!  It is GOD who brings these things upon JOB... (adversity speaking)

Agreed that God proposed the whole she-bang.  Its just the way Job 1 is written it looks like God is having a conversation with Satan.  But I suppose that could just be a literal interpetation of a spiritual/metaphorical passage?  I'm not sure.

Also (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

I believe there is no "lake of FIRE" at the conclusion of this life...

I firmly believe that THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE... in which ALL DEATH, the 2nd DEATH (physical) and the GRAVE (hell) were cast...

I'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

If you have specific questions, I shall try my best to answer them...

But what about judgement day?  ie. the day of the lord?  When do we give an account of what we have done?  Is that is what is happening right now in this life?  I've always viewed those things as happening after we die?  If they do happen after we die, that would mean the Lake Of fire must happen after we die.  Or do you mean the judgment before the GWT is happening right now, therefore we are in the lake of fire right now?

Its a bit of a paradigm shift for me.  And what about those who have died not knowing Christ?  Hitler?  Little babies?  It seems their "lake of fire" experience wasn't completed - therefore there must be more "lake of fire" after this life.

My beliefs are not based upon "articles" written by others, so I have no web links to refer you to.  However I do have many agreements with J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach and L. Ray Smith... I can provide their links if you wish, but I do have a few differences with them as well...

I realize your beliefs are based off scripture, I was just looking for pointers for these ideas and a bigger explanation.  I've read Ray Smith's stuff ALOT, and Eby's stuff at least twice.  Haven't read Elwin Roach before.

Is there someone who explains this in as much detail as Ray Smith would for example?  I haven't seen Ray talk about these types of ideas before.  Pointers to more info (thus the request for articles/web sites/studies) would be helpful. 

I see the potential of this idea, but am confused about a lot of scriptures.  I'm having trouble seeing how some concepts would fit in.  More study as always is needed  :grin:

Peace,
Legoman

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lego... :hithere:

Let me begin this answer by saying that it is not my intention to change you or your beliefs in any way (or anyone else for that matter)... I post observations which are a work in progress, and that are in need of further study.  That does not mean they are "incorrect", it just means they are mine for the moment, subject to further revelation."

We are all students (or at least should be), and a student is always in the process of learning...  I remain confident in my observations, but continue to seek God to "sand the edges" as He sees fit, within His time, PURPOSE, and WILL, as He continues to work Himself IN ME...  :mblush:

Hi Willie, thanks for your reply.

It is my pleasure to discuss with you bro...  :friendstu:

Scriptural observation is that which determines ones viewpoint... That certain Scriptures don't fit a given viewpoint, does not mean they are not a true vision of them...

Agreed.  That is what I am trying to figure out - if I am totally missing the spiritual application of some scriptures - which I probably am.

From what I have seen of your posts, you are very "spiritually" informed bro, ...that said, the humility you express here is inspiring!

ALL GENERATIONS take place within the DAY of the creation of GOD which is NOW -- Gen 2:4 -- ALL things that were part of the Creative work of GOD, were done by the conclusion of the 6th Day --  The SABBATH has NO beginning (morning) or end (evening)... and in the SABBATH are ALL THINGS found COMPLETE. 

CHRIST is the SABBATH rest of YHVH in which ALL THINGS are complete.

Gen 2:1 ...Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ALL the host of them

This I can see, but I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

Until just recently, ...neither had I!  :mshock:

Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.

I can sort of see this.  Satan is like our inner voice that convinces us its OK to eat the forbidden fruit.

If we seek harmony in the Scriptures, Eve's experience MUST be the same as James 1:14 notes it to be for EVERY man (woman)...

It is my observation, that "Christianity" gives OMNIPRESENCE and "beinghood" to a principality...  It makes LOGICAL sense that the "conversation" Eve had in the Garden, was with HERSELF, not a "talking snake"...  :dontknow: 

When it gets down to the truth, ...how many of us have had and DO HAVE, such "conversations"?   :wink1:

What about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

I shall go out on a limb here... but GOD states we are made in HIS IMAGE after HIS LIKENESS, and why should WE have such "conversations" as I just mentioned, and He ...NOT?  In my belief in Him, I give God the lee-way to "think to Himself"... It is a principle which most everyone denies Him...

The "conversation" in Job, (as I see it, and I am capable of error), is His KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, taking place within HIM... (you are welcome to disagree with this)

If you read the text... GOD proposed the whole she-bang!  It is GOD who brings these things upon JOB... (adversity speaking)

Agreed that God proposed the whole she-bang.  Its just the way Job 1 is written it looks like God is having a conversation with Satan.  But I suppose that could just be a literal interpetation of a spiritual/metaphorical passage?  I'm not sure.

It's okay to "not be sure"... It is the driving force which beckons us to continue to study!

If you take what I just said of the "conversations" of EVE in the Garden, and GOD with satan... what you have is...

willieH coming up to the "stop sign" on his way to work, without a "word" physically or audibly spoken, "saying to himself -- hmm, should I turn left here or go on down to the light?  I think I'll turn here..."  Who was I speaking (or not speaking) to?  Who answered?

As my wife, sitting in the seat NEXT to me, hears NOTHING of this "conversation"  :dontknow:  Yet it nevertheless, INDEED ...TOOK PLACE!

Also (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

THIS LIFE, is the LOF!

I believe there is no "lake of FIRE" at the conclusion of this life...

I firmly believe that THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE... in which ALL DEATH, the 2nd DEATH (physical) and the GRAVE (hell) were cast...

I'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

I understand bro, ...take your time... re-read some of the passages in question, and seek via prayer, understanding from Father... He will clear things up for you, in His time...  As I said, I certainly don't know everything!  But am quite confident in where I stand.  :happy3:

But what about judgement day?

John 12:31 --- NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...  We are part of THIS WORLD are we not? and we exist in ..."NOW"... do we not?

ie. the day of the lord?

If you will for a moment, just drop the LINEAR observations and realize that from the ETERNAL and UNMOVING perspective, that ALL is accomplished within the Declaration and Foreknowledge of GOD... IOW -- whatever GOD "foreknows" (which is EVERYTHING), it shall HAPPEN according to that "FOREKNOWLEDGE"

The Perfect FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, is the "DAY of the LORD"... which is found COMPLETE in the SABBATH...

Rom 4:17 ...and calleth those things which BE NOT, ...as though THEY WERE...

Whatever GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE indicates -- which is of events and beings which, according to time are YET to be manifest... When these things ARE indeed manifest in TIME, they shall occur EXACTLY as HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them noted!  This is HOW "prophecy" works... Could CHRIST have done other than that which was PROPHESIED of Him?  The answer is ...NO!  For if He had done other than that which was PROPHESIED of Him, the WORD of YHVH would be found as a FALSE WITNESS... bearing a LIE, ...inaccurate, ...incomplete...  to that I say HOGWASH! :mnah:

A while back it was revealed to me, that for instance... "Cain killing Abel"... could NOT have occured otherwise.  (I can almost see "eyes rolling" at this statement...  :laughing7:)

For the WORD of GOD does NOT NEED the manifestation of TIME in order to BE... (as Rom 4:17 and other verses state)... so the FACT that the account of this killing is found RECORDED in the WORD of God (which NEVER CHANGES), is an example to us that it could NOT have happened otherwise... irregardless of the imaginations of men which would propose it "could've", or "should've"... What "HAPPENS" in the course of the History of MAN is that which GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE indicated would HAPPEN.

What HAPPENS, is what HAPPENS... not the imaginary speculated "alternatives" men come up with in finite and sinfully infested, minds...

When do we give an account of what we have done?

We shall give account of ourselves (for OUR benefit)... which is nothing more than the exposure, good or bad, of what we DID while in the flesh of SIN (which contains "satan"=adversity to the COMMAND of GOD)...

When Adam & Eve had eaten, and GOD was calling for them in the Garden... Do we think He did not KNOW WHERE they WERE?   :laughing7:

And when He gained their audience... and they confessed they were "naked", to which God responded "who told thee that thou wast naked"... Was He investigating?  Or did He already KNOW ALL the facts?

It was for THEIR benefit that they "gave account" of their "nakedness"... and in the process, tried to "pass the buck"... which was NOT ALLOWED. (Adam blames the woman and GOD, then Eve blames the serpent)

As you read the curse given to the "serpent"... think about this:  Who "eats" of the dust?  Does not the food of man, ...come from the DUST?  What "snake" EATS of the dust?  ...isn't it interesting that JESUS on several occasions, called the Scribes & Pharisees -- SNAKES ["vipers"/serpents]... as they RELIGIOUSLY and TRADITIONALLY, ...MISLED the children of Israel!

Read YHVH's "curse" to Adam -- Gen 2:17 and compare it to the "curse" of the "serpent" -- Gen 2:14...

They are essentially, the SAME!  As GOD notes to ADAM that HE shall EAT of the DUST, and battle with it ALL the days of his life...  :dontknow:

Is that is what is happening right now in this life?

YES... the "books" (mens lives) are open before Him...  :Book:

I've always viewed those things as happening after we die?  If they do happen after we die, that would mean the Lake Of fire must happen after we die.  Or do you mean the judgment before the GWT is happening right now, therefore we are in the lake of fire right now?

YES !!... who can deny the MANY "FIRES" which exist in THIS LIFE?  Not only is there "physical" FIRE, ...but what of the MENTAL "FIRES" of disappointment, defeat, sorrow... what of the HEART "FIRES" of passion, and anger... what of the "FIRE" of DEATH which TAKES AWAY one by one, ALL the LOVES of our lives... and the "FIRE" which assualts our HEALTH, burning us with disease, and pain... 

The LOF (within a book of SYMBOLS) is observed as a PHYSICAL FIRE, when it is ALL manner of FIRES, engaging each of us continually during THIS LIFE, in one form or another!

The "books" are OPEN before Him... WE, are the "books"... Rev 20:12... GOD does not need a "review" or account... WE DO...  We live and give our "account" to Him, moment by moment -- NOW, ...right before HIS EYES...

Its a bit of a paradigm shift for me.  And what about those who have died not knowing Christ?  Hitler?  Little babies?  It seems their "lake of fire" experience wasn't completed - therefore there must be more "lake of fire" after this life.

Well, "babies"  :btantrum: ...have no sinful account to give, for they neither DID Good nor Evil... they were only CONCIEVED in SIN... Ps 51:5 and need a spiritual re-birth from the dust of death they entered into...

As far as the rest of humanity, ...their deeds are yet to be exposed TO THEM and before ALL... GOD has already SEEN and KNOWN each and every DETAIL...

In this account, ...these shall (before the conclusion of the LAST DAY), DO as did those who were CHOSEN for REVELATION, in THIS LIFETIME... fall to the knee (in belief) and confess the name of CHRIST (unto Salvation)

It is the NAKEDNESS of SHAME men shall face in giving their "account" -- Rev 3:18

My beliefs are not based upon "articles" written by others, so I have no web links to refer you to.  However I do have many agreements with J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach and L. Ray Smith... I can provide their links if you wish, but I do have a few differences with them as well...

I realize your beliefs are based off scripture, I was just looking for pointers for these ideas and a bigger explanation.  I've read Ray Smith's stuff ALOT, and Eby's stuff at least twice.  Haven't read Elwin Roach before.

Is there someone who explains this in as much detail as Ray Smith would for example?  I haven't seen Ray talk about these types of ideas before.  Pointers to more info (thus the request for articles/web sites/studies) would be helpful.

As I said, I have differences with these men as well as agreements... Ray Smith definitely has his ideas about the LOF... and I have read the entire LOF series he wrote (although it was a while back)... often finding disagreements with much of it...

Here is a link to Elwin Roach (he is quite a knowledgeable man!  I think you will enjoy his writings, and gain some new insights from him as well!):

http://www.godfire.net/index.html

Here is the Lake of Fire stuff for Roach:

http://www.godfire.net/Hellidx.html

I see the potential of this idea, but am confused about a lot of scriptures.  I'm having trouble seeing how some concepts would fit in.  More study as always is needed  :grin:

Peace,
Legoman

You are on the trail of learning bro... I salute your desire and committment!  :boogie: :happyclap:

I am on this same trail myself... on it, ...I have found that there is NO CONDEMNATION in GOD, so the LOF has to be other than a VENGENT / CONDEMNING entity as it is proposed by most Christian Theologians (Ray Smith, included)...  As I see it presently, it is a CORRECTIONAL entity which contains TORMENT of suffering and Hardship (as was experienced by our Savior within it), and is PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST

We follow Him IN SUFFERING (within THIS LIFE) -- Heb 2:10 -- for the process of PERFECTION (completion) includes SUFFERING... 

It is significant to note that an often UNMENTIONED part of the LOF is "Brimstone"... and "Brimstone" is a PURIFYING agent...  :giveheart:

Keep digging in the field bro...  :handshake:  ...much TREASURE, yet to be found!  Prov 25:2 -- Matt 13:44

I'm proud to stand beside you and join you in this wonderful "excavation" project!  :gimmefive:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[jabcat]

I'm still "up in the air" on some of this Willi, but I enjoyed your post and found it very interesting and informative. :thumbsup:.  Certainly things to consider further.  Bless you, James.

[Pierac]

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7  The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Satan is no angelic being, who waged war with God, as the casual conversation clearly shows. However, Satan is also not some "inner self" of man either, and for the same reason.   :2c:

Paul

[jabcat]

Cool verse..opens up interesting possibilities.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Long time no speak bro!  Hope you are doing well...  :friendstu:

With all due respect, ...A slight objection to your view below... no offense intended!  :mblush:

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7  The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Satan is no angelic being, who waged war with God, as the casual conversation clearly shows. However, Satan is also not some "inner self" of man either, and for the same reason.   :2c:

Paul

The conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD... 

No being can suggest to GOD, ANYTHING...

ONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...  :dontknow:

There are many times we have thoughts which are not outwardly expressed... silently asking OURSELVES things, silently conversing with ourselves... why should we LIMIT GOD, and say that He cannot do this? 

We are made in His image and LIKENESS... He is certainly able to at the very LEAST, do all that we can do and INFINITELY MORE...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[sparrow]

This is a very fascinating discussion.

Willie.. I agree with you on a lot of points.

I would like to understand more of your thoughts of what happens when a person dies...
Could you expand a little on your beliefs in that area? I think we disagree on that, and I don't want to argue at all. I'm just curious as to what your beliefs are, that's all....  (It doesn't hurt to have too many different perspectives to ponder!! I love having different things to take apart in my mind and rebuild them and see where it leads.)

thanks bro..

[jabcat]

I would like to understand more of your thoughts of what happens when a person dies...
Could you expand a little on your beliefs in that area?
thanks bro..

I was wondering the same thing...if all's now and complete, then what does bro willi see "ahead"?  :afFro:  Yeah, no arguing, everyone's free to see whatever it is God allows them to see, but curious, yes.  So since I was wondering the same thing, durn good question, Sparrow  :laughhand: