Tentmaker Forum

I was watching a debate that was on tv not that long ago debating the existence of Satan...with carlton pearson (guy ive been listening to alot of sermons of lightly) was on the "non existent" side of satan.

So does he exist? surely he is talked about in the Bible...but in what way does he exist...what IS he really? is he a red guy with pointy horns and a pitchfork, is he a blue eyed bald woman in a black robe(passion of christ lol) or is he more figurative than that? a projection of our own sinful nature perhaps? Ive read some things that have debunked the "falling angel" story about him...so its called in the question what he really is.


thoughts?

I saw that show too, pretty interesting to watch.  (Was kind of hard to listen to Mark Driscoll though, since I can't stand the guy)  Anyways, I personally do not agree with Carlton Pearson as far as Satan being a metaphor.  I do believe that there is in fact a literal, spiritual being known as The Satan (The Advesary.)  As far as exact details on him, that I do not know.  I don't whether he was an angel who rebelled against God or if he was created the way he is.  What I do know is that 1) His role and function is, as the name suggests, to be the Advesary, both to mankind and to God and 2) Even though he is a powerful enemy, he is not all powerful as some have depicted him.  We see in Job that Satan is under the complete control of God and can do nothing without his permission.  That's all I know and believe at the moment.  Hopefully some of our other members will have a better answer.

P.S. Love your avatar pic, his solo album was awesome!!!

Things where so easy when I never opened a Bible.  It's a real person. Immortal and great powers. To much Hollywood I guess :laughing7:

Then I learned satan is the part of us that opposes (the laws of) God. But what part? I always assumed the dark side of our Spirit. But now I think that can't be true either because satan is always referred to as an he. And AFAIK a Spirit is a she. ???

QuoteHopefully some of our other members will have a better answer.

I hope so too. But I'm fairly certain there won't be any real proof presented. Similar debates raged on and on in the past.
All sides supporting their own view. But IMO none of them presented the proof (verses) that ended the debate.

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2009, 06:58:21 PM
Things where so easy when I never opened a Bible. 

:cloud9: rofl......opened up a whole new world didn't it?

I remember not too long after opening it after coming to Him when He started to rock my world with revelations, I cried out to Him one night, "I feel like I'm losing my mind! Everything I thought was the truth is a lie and everything I thought was a lie, is the truth!"

He spoke plain as day, "I'm returning you to the dust!"  :mshock:

I said to myself...."OH sheet, it's worse than I thought!"  :mblush:

A few months later I discovered what the concordance in the back of my Strong's was actually FOR (I had just been using it to look up scriptures)  :mblush:, and my first word study was on the word "DUST". Whew! Glad we cleared THAT up.  :laughing7: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on May 17, 2009, 07:23:12 PM
He spoke plain as day, "I'm returning you to the dust!"  :mshock:

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:coepFApzWnKKkM:https://www.evacuumstore.com/images/dirt-devil.gif)


Post the study notes little devil  :bgdance:

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2009, 06:58:21 PM
I hope so too. But I'm fairly certain there won't be any real proof presented. Similar debates raged on and on in the past.
All sides supporting their own view. But IMO none of them presented the proof (verses) that ended the debate.

Yep.  Also considering that there's an infinite number of ways of looking at one verse, let alone a bunch of them, I seriously doubt an all time consencence will be met.  Still, should be interesting to see what comes up.  By the way WhiteWings, did you happen to see the Dateline episode NinjaWizards777 was talking about and if so, what did you think?

Quote from: Jerm on May 17, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
I saw that show too, pretty interesting to watch.  (Was kind of hard to listen to Mark Driscoll though, since I can't stand the guy)  Anyways, I personally do not agree with Carlton Pearson as far as Satan being a metaphor.  I do believe that there is in fact a literal, spiritual being known as The Satan (The Advesary.)  As far as exact details on him, that I do not know.  I don't whether he was an angel who rebelled against God or if he was created the way he is.  What I do know is that 1) His role and function is, as the name suggests, to be the Advesary, both to mankind and to God and 2) Even though he is a powerful enemy, he is not all powerful as some have depicted him.  We see in Job that Satan is under the complete control of God and can do nothing without his permission.  That's all I know and believe at the moment.  Hopefully some of our other members will have a better answer.

P.S. Love your avatar pic, his solo album was awesome!!!

I tend to disagree with carlton on this as well(though from listening to his sermons i find I agree with him on virtually everything else, wonderful guy to listen to).
Whether its a result of my fundamentalist background I tend to believe in demons and satan pretty literally. But since coming to UR ive really just felt open to other interpretations...other perceptions, and try to see if there is something more that I havent seen on other subjects as well, you know? If the mainstream theology has salvation and Gods love for us all backwards, what else is backwards too? you cant help but ask that question.

Im not sure honestly on this subject, I plan to read a book or two on the matter when I get a chance

P.s yes it is a pretty good cd, i also enjoyed his book

Quote from: Jerm on May 17, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
By the way WhiteWings, did you happen to see the Dateline episode NinjaWizards777 was talking about and if so, what did you think?

Dateline? Dating show? :laughing7:
Haven't seen it. I'm not living in the USA.

But I can say this. Unless some really really convincing things are said on that show my answer would be: I still don't know.

You know, you don't convince me with a few verses. I only stop doubting if all relevant verses align.
All verses are true. If they don't align... well either a translation error or lack of understanding.

Just one of my most current toughts on this.

In Revelation we read there is a war and satan is defeated and locked up for a thousand years.
During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)
When Satan gets released again for a short while trouble starts all over again.
So just looking at that it appears Satan is some "person".
But it also shows humanity is easily walks towards the dark. Even if it has enjoyed 1000 year of light.

Reading a little more I see that satan is defeated a second and final time. Only then he's cast in LoF.
At that time we see that also sinners are cast in LoF. (all have sinned) Also there are verses that show fire is good.
Salt is good. Everyone is salted with fire.

So now one of my often changing conclusions on this subject is:
We all have our dark side. Our little part of satan.
In those 1000 years God simply fully suppresses that dark side. (satan is chained)
But the dark side is still present and waiting for its release after the 1000 years.
Trouble.
Then finally God takes drastic and everlasting measure. All darkness is burned out in LoF
10 billion pieces of satan get wiped out in that lake.

Time for some bottled spirit  :Party:

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2009, 10:13:28 PM
Just one of my most current toughts on this.

In Revelation we read there is a war and satan is defeated and locked up for a thousand years.
During those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)
When Satan gets released again for a short while trouble starts all over again.
So just looking at that it appears Satan is some "person".
But it also shows humanity is easily walks towards the dark. Even if it has enjoyed 1000 year of light.

Reading a little more I see that satan is defeated a second and final time. Only then he's cast in LoF.
At that time we see that also sinners are cast in LoF. (all have sinned) Also there are verses that show fire is good.
Salt is good. Everyone is salted with fire.

So now one of my often changing conclusions on this subject is:
We all have our dark side. Our little part of satan.
In those 1000 years God simply fully suppresses that dark side. (satan is chained)
But the dark side is still present and waiting for its release after the 1000 years.
Trouble.
Then finally God takes drastic and everlasting measure. All darkness is burned out in LoF
10 billion pieces of satan get wiped out in that lake.

Time for some bottled spirit  :Party:

Very interesting, whitewings...
I think I may see it in a somewhat similar manner.

Now... the question is....


When are these 1000 years?
Is it figurative, literal??

Is the "kingdom" here NOW? Is the world slowly being transformed NOW?
So many rely on this 2nd coming of Jesus... is that reality?
Or is the kingdom being rebuilt NOW amongst the darkness??
So many, who don't care about anything, (such as environmental concerns, animal abuse, human abuse, slavery, etc.) because they are expecting everything to very quickly just *poof* be transformed because "Jesus is coming soon".

Is this true? Or is the kingdom slowly in the process of being transformed and it will take a LONG LONG time?
And then once it is transformed (through the knowledge of God being made shown to human's hearts and therefore this CHANGE in their heart, this LOVE in their heart that is slowly evolving, slowly becoming stronger is really how things are going to be TRANSFORMED)?


I would love to believe that Jesus will one day just literally appear and we are transformed...
but I don't think that is how it really is. That kind of makes me feel.... blah.
But I'm just trying to think of this in the more realistic, what makes sense terms.

Quote from: sparrow on May 17, 2009, 11:47:13 PM
When are these 1000 years?
Is it figurative, literal??

I would say literal because all prophesies are fulfilled with great accuracy.
So why would Revelation suddenly be different? Just because Revelation concerns us?

QuoteIs the "kingdom" here NOW? Is the world slowly being transformed NOW?

Unless it started this afternoon I would say: No.
Sparrow. Just pick up a history book. Read a news paper. Watch the news.
What do you see? Nothing but trouble. The only thing that's done in times of peace is building 'better' stuff to kill others.

QuoteSo many rely on this 2nd coming of Jesus... is that reality?
Or is the kingdom being rebuilt NOW amongst the darkness??
So many, who don't care about anything, (such as environmental concerns, animal abuse, human abuse, slavery, etc.) because they are expecting everything to very quickly just *poof* be transformed because "Jesus is coming soon".

You just said it. There is no sign of *poof*
I only see things getting worse. USA starting war talk again against Iran. Israel isn't very quiet either.
Whatever you think of it I'm sure you don't call it part of the *poof* :winkgrin:

QuoteIs this true? Or is the kingdom slowly in the process of being transformed and it will take a LONG LONG time?

No speaking totally against what I wrote above..... Don't really care. All I do is writing down my thoughts.
Jesus rules a 1000 years (with a rod of iron) and puts everything under His foot.
That doesn't sound like a *poof* victory but a long process towards peace.

QuoteAnd then once it is transformed (through the knowledge of God being made shown to human's hearts and therefore this CHANGE in their heart, this LOVE in their heart that is slowly evolving, slowly becoming stronger is really how things are going to be TRANSFORMED)?

Sounds like a fake transformation to me.
All is quiet at/near the end of the end of Jesus. Then satan starts all over again.
If at that time the world was full of people that really are like Jesus then satan quickly would feel very lonely with his war talks noone listens to. But Revelation shows many will listen and many will wage war against Christ.
I know that sounds Jesus failed in those 1000 years.
I'm not really meaning to say that. Lets just say I don't really understand....
Perhaps God at the closing of the millenium of Jesus hold some speech. I gave you 7000 years with and without all kind of rules/kings/judges/grace and finally a perfect King (Jesus) and still you didn't learn. Now I'm going to burn the evil out.

Well that are just some thoughts of which I can only backup a small part with verses.
So nothing more than human reasoning. Waste of time :winkgrin:

hmmm. yeah, I really just have no idea.

And yes I know how horrible things are out there...
BUT... we are also pretty much only SHOWN the horrible things.
The news has a way of manipulating.

Are we being manipulated into complacency?

These are just things I wonder about.

I just don't know...

I just really have no idea what I'm talking about, really.

Just putting some thoughts out there.

For me, I believe that Satan does exist, but I have a hard time describing anything beyond that.  It reminds me of another thread I once started regarding the nature of Hell.  Is Hell an eternal holding place for sinners who never found Jesus?  Why were Satan and his demons supposedly thrown into there if it didn't hold them?  Is Hell a seperate place from where Satan dwells?

So what is Satan?  I can tell you first off that he was once Lucifer and God's favorite angel.  I can also tell you that he decided to start his own little mutiny and got kicked out of Heaven.  I'm pretty sure that he spends all his time now trying to torture God by deceiving us, etc.

Now, I don't think I believe that Satan can ever win.  By that I mean that I don't think he can forever hold our souls hostage.  God will always win out in the end, but I do believe that he uses his temporary hold on us to try and tick God off.  This is purely speculation on my part and would require an entire essay to explain myself properly, but that's my take on it.

Then there is the symbolic Satan.  This Satan acts as a reflection of our own faults and our own guilt.  Kind of like what people often call, "The demons in our lives."  Most of the time, we don't mean literal demons (although I believe that they exist also), and that is another definition of Satan.

I'm going way off track and am on the border of rambling.

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Before I answer, know that I loveya, and intend no offense to you bro... but,

I would like to voice that the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is a SPIRITUAL (not LITERAL) matter... and the actual meanings of the WORDS in this book will NOT be understood as LITERAL, you are welcome to disagree... but if you do, you will find out otherwise one day...

If we take ANY of the terms in this book LITERALLY, then we must take them ALL literally... No "picking & choosing"...  and we therein blatantly DISREGARD it from its beginning, by dismissing the instruction plainly given in the first chapter of the book -- Rev 1:1 -- for the book states itself as SIGNIFIED by GOD -- which means it was/is revealed via SIGNS or imagery...

If we take a term such as the "1000" years literally, then we must, to name just a few:

(1) do we take the "half hour"  silence in Heaven -- in Rev 8:1 as 30 Literal minutes? (wow! their lunch breaks are as short as ours!) ...as well as

(2) the THIRD of the waters of the earth will become Literal WORMWOOD as a Literal "STAR" (which is the actual word for a STAR in the Heavens)... named WORMWOOD falls into them, as is noted in Rev 8:11... (It'll probably make a pretty BIG SPLASH dontcha think?  :laughing7: ) ...and,

(3) a Literal Sea of GLASS (wonder if there are any "glass fish" swimming in it?) and an EYE-filled BEAST (hope he doesn't need glasses!)... as noted in Rev 4:6

And many many more, which "literally' moves us into the BROAD area of NONSENSE...   :pitiful:

Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2009, 10:13:28 PM
In Revelation we read there is a war and satan is defeated and locked up for a thousand years.

The "war" between GOD and "satan"... is figuratively done in the literal... How's that for a little "him-haw"?  :laughing7:

"satan" is not a being, so the war fought against this ADVERSITY (which is what the Hebrew word "satan" means) is that which Paul names in Rom 7:23... this "war" is going on in all of us... NOW!

For example:  It is the very battle that is being fought in one trying to quit smoking... The mind decides it wants to quit, but the BODY, says otherwise.

QuoteDuring those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)

Again, this is NOT a "clock/calendar" measurement.  It is part of the REVEALING of a being which HAS no such parameters...

The "1000" years is the DAY of GOD...

QuoteWhen Satan gets released again for a short while trouble starts all over again.

Again, bro, no offense but this is of the same variety as the argument of "going to heaven" at death!  We "go to heaven" then are "reinserted" into our bodies that rise... Please!

I certainly do not claim to know everything about the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST... but one thing I DO KNOW is that it is a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL book, which "Literally" disqualifies it from being LITERAL...

QuoteSo just looking at that it appears Satan is some "person".
But it also shows humanity is easily walks towards the dark. Even if it has enjoyed 1000 year of light.

Think about it WW... As a little kid, if you burn your hand on the stove... do you stick your finger on the burner again?  Just to see if the circumstance might change?  C'mon... There is SPIRITUAL meaning in these WORDS, which can only be REVEALED by GOD... and taking them "Literally" is to dispose of His help... for any ATHIEST or believer in an opposing religion, can get as much out of this as any "Believer"...

If GOD's WORDS are reduced to the "Literal", then who needs "SPIRITUAL" help from GOD?

QuoteReading a little more I see that satan is defeated a second and final time. Only then he's cast in LoF.
At that time we see that also sinners are cast in LoF. (all have sinned) Also there are verses that show fire is good.

"satan" is the ADVERSITY within MEN who have ALL been cast into the Lake of FIRE which is THIS LIFE...

QuoteSalt is good. Everyone is salted with fire.

THIS LIFE is the FIRE that ALL are salted with... Mark 9:49 --

QuoteSo now one of my often changing conclusions on this subject is:
We all have our dark side. Our little part of satan.
In those 1000 years God simply fully suppresses that dark side. (satan is chained)
But the dark side is still present and waiting for its release after the 1000 years.
Trouble.

:omg:  Now you are sounding like you are taking a SYMBOLIC view of these things!

Wow willieH,

You have said some things here which are making me think.  I'm not sure what to make of it, if I'm taking things too literal or not. I have considered some of these ideas before, but they don't seem to fit with some scriptures.

Quote from: willieH on May 18, 2009, 05:16:00 AM
"satan" is not a being, so the war fought against this ADVERSITY (which is what the Hebrew word "satan" means) is that which Paul names in Rom 7:23... this "war" is going on in all of us... NOW!

QuoteDuring those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)

Again, this is NOT a "clock/calendar" measurement.  It is part of the REVEALING of a being which HAS no such parameters...

The "1000" years is the DAY of GOD...

This is interesting.  Is the millenium literal or a moment in our life?

Quote
"satan" is the ADVERSITY within MEN who have ALL been cast into the Lake of FIRE which is THIS LIFE...

THIS LIFE is the FIRE that ALL are salted with... Mark 9:49 --

So are you saying there is no being who is Satan - it is only our carnal selves?  I have seen this idea before, but it doesn't seem to fit.  Eve was tempted by the serpent in Genesis - was it just her dark side tempting her?

What about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

Also (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

I'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

Is there some articles/web pages that talk about this more? Thanks for any info on this willieH.

Legoman

willieH: Hi Akira... :hithere:

Quote from: Akira Takahashi on May 18, 2009, 04:57:36 AMSo what is Satan?  I can tell you first off that he was once Lucifer and God's favorite angel.

Where does it ever say this in the WORD, Akira? (1) That SATAN is or WAS, ever "LUCIFER"? (2) that "satan" was an ANGEL?  (3) that "he" was GOD's favorite?  (especially when GOD has no respect of persons!)

QuoteI can also tell you that he decided to start his own little mutiny and got kicked out of Heaven.

Again... where in the WORD is this stated?  In your pastor's memoirs maybe?  Or a "CARM" tract?

To think that "satan" started a "mutiny"... is to note GOD as a "tinkering" creator, which just hasn't "worked out the bugs"...  :mnah:

QuoteI'm pretty sure that he spends all his time now trying to torture God by deceiving us, etc.

More words with no substanciation...  :shakepoint:  Where is it stated that "satan" -- "spends time"?  Or that "satan" (noted as a being) even has an "involvement in TIME"?  :dontknow:

QuoteNow, I don't think I believe that Satan can ever win.  By that I mean that I don't think he can forever hold our souls hostage.  God will always win out in the end, but I do believe that he uses his temporary hold on us to try and tick God off.

Where is it ever stated that "satan" ...ticks God off?  :dunno:

"satan" posed as an "ANGELIC being" is the creation of THEOLOGIANS... the proprietor of "HELL", the arch-enemy of GOD, who for NO REASON, "rebelled" and got thrown out of Heaven...

If this actually occured, what is to keep it from re-occuring?  :rolleye:

The TRUTH is, that these things NEVER happened, and are misobservations made of NATURAL minds, of SPIRITUAL texts...

willieH: Hi legoman!   :cloud9:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 06:28:01 AM
Wow willieH,

You have said some things here which are making me think.  I'm not sure what to make of it, if I'm taking things too literal or not. I have considered some of these ideas before, but they don't seem to fit with some scriptures.

Scriptural observation is that which determines ones viewpoint... That certain Scriptures don't fit a given viewpoint, does not mean they are not a true vision of them...

I have ET believers telling me daily, that the Salvation of ALL MEN is not a Scriptural teaching, yet when I ask them to explain the verses which plainly state it, they find ways to sidestep them, by adding or subtracting from them...

Quote from: willieH on May 18, 2009, 05:16:00 AM
"satan" is not a being, so the war fought against this ADVERSITY (which is what the Hebrew word "satan" means) is that which Paul names in Rom 7:23... this "war" is going on in all of us... NOW!

QuoteDuring those 1000 years there is rest and peace (Sabbath millenium)

Again, this is NOT a "clock/calendar" measurement.  It is part of the REVEALING of a being which HAS no such parameters...

The "1000" years is the DAY of GOD...

QuoteThis is interesting.  Is the millenium literal or a moment in our life?

ALL GENERATIONS take place within the DAY of the creation of GOD which is NOW -- Gen 2:4 -- ALL things that were part of the Creative work of GOD, were done by the conclusion of the 6th Day --  The SABBATH has NO beginning (morning) or end (evening)... and in the SABBATH are ALL THINGS found COMPLETE. 

CHRIST is the SABBATH rest of YHVH in which ALL THINGS are complete.

Gen 2:1 ...Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ALL the host of them

Quote
"satan" is the ADVERSITY within MEN who have ALL been cast into the Lake of FIRE which is THIS LIFE...

THIS LIFE is the FIRE that ALL are salted with... Mark 9:49 --

QuoteSo are you saying there is no being who is Satan - it is only our carnal selves?  I have seen this idea before, but it doesn't seem to fit.  Eve was tempted by the serpent in Genesis - was it just her dark side tempting her?

Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.

QuoteWhat about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

If you read the text... GOD proposed the whole she-bang!  It is GOD who brings these things upon JOB... (adversity speaking)

Job 2:5 -- Put forth THINE HAND now and touch his bone and his flesh and he will curse THEE to THY FACE...  

QuoteAlso (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

I believe there is no "lake of FIRE" at the conclusion of this life...

I firmly believe that THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE... in which ALL DEATH, the 2nd DEATH (physical) and the GRAVE (hell) were cast...

QuoteI'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

If you have specific questions, I shall try my best to answer them...

QuoteIs there some articles/web pages that talk about this more? Thanks for any info on this willieH.

Legoman

My beliefs are not based upon "articles" written by others, so I have no web links to refer you to.  However I do have many agreements with J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach and L. Ray Smith... I can provide their links if you wish, but I do have a few differences with them as well...

The best way is to share the conclusions I have made in my studies, with the Scriptures they are based upon...

I don't have time right now, but I will be happy to answer any questions concerning the Lake of FIRE...

Hi Willie, thanks for your reply.

Quote from: willieH on May 18, 2009, 09:41:17 AM

Scriptural observation is that which determines ones viewpoint... That certain Scriptures don't fit a given viewpoint, does not mean they are not a true vision of them...

Agreed.  That is what I am trying to figure out - if I am totally missing the spiritual application of some scriptures - which I probably am.

Quote
ALL GENERATIONS take place within the DAY of the creation of GOD which is NOW -- Gen 2:4 -- ALL things that were part of the Creative work of GOD, were done by the conclusion of the 6th Day --  The SABBATH has NO beginning (morning) or end (evening)... and in the SABBATH are ALL THINGS found COMPLETE. 

CHRIST is the SABBATH rest of YHVH in which ALL THINGS are complete.

Gen 2:1 ...Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ALL the host of them

This I can see, but I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

Quote
Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.

I can sort of see this.  Satan is like our inner voice that convinces us its OK to eat the forbidden fruit.

Quote

QuoteWhat about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

If you read the text... GOD proposed the whole she-bang!  It is GOD who brings these things upon JOB... (adversity speaking)

Agreed that God proposed the whole she-bang.  Its just the way Job 1 is written it looks like God is having a conversation with Satan.  But I suppose that could just be a literal interpetation of a spiritual/metaphorical passage?  I'm not sure.

Quote

QuoteAlso (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

I believe there is no "lake of FIRE" at the conclusion of this life...

I firmly believe that THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE... in which ALL DEATH, the 2nd DEATH (physical) and the GRAVE (hell) were cast...

QuoteI'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

If you have specific questions, I shall try my best to answer them...

But what about judgement day?  ie. the day of the lord?  When do we give an account of what we have done?  Is that is what is happening right now in this life?  I've always viewed those things as happening after we die?  If they do happen after we die, that would mean the Lake Of fire must happen after we die.  Or do you mean the judgment before the GWT is happening right now, therefore we are in the lake of fire right now?

Its a bit of a paradigm shift for me.  And what about those who have died not knowing Christ?  Hitler?  Little babies?  It seems their "lake of fire" experience wasn't completed - therefore there must be more "lake of fire" after this life.

Quote
My beliefs are not based upon "articles" written by others, so I have no web links to refer you to.  However I do have many agreements with J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach and L. Ray Smith... I can provide their links if you wish, but I do have a few differences with them as well...

I realize your beliefs are based off scripture, I was just looking for pointers for these ideas and a bigger explanation.  I've read Ray Smith's stuff ALOT, and Eby's stuff at least twice.  Haven't read Elwin Roach before.

Is there someone who explains this in as much detail as Ray Smith would for example?  I haven't seen Ray talk about these types of ideas before.  Pointers to more info (thus the request for articles/web sites/studies) would be helpful. 

I see the potential of this idea, but am confused about a lot of scriptures.  I'm having trouble seeing how some concepts would fit in.  More study as always is needed  :grin:

Peace,
Legoman

willieH: Hi Lego... :hithere:

Let me begin this answer by saying that it is not my intention to change you or your beliefs in any way (or anyone else for that matter)... I post observations which are a work in progress, and that are in need of further study.  That does not mean they are "incorrect", it just means they are mine for the moment, subject to further revelation."

We are all students (or at least should be), and a student is always in the process of learning...  I remain confident in my observations, but continue to seek God to "sand the edges" as He sees fit, within His time, PURPOSE, and WILL, as He continues to work Himself IN ME...  :mblush:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PM
Hi Willie, thanks for your reply.

It is my pleasure to discuss with you bro...  :friendstu:

Quote from: willieH on May 18, 2009, 09:41:17 AM
Scriptural observation is that which determines ones viewpoint... That certain Scriptures don't fit a given viewpoint, does not mean they are not a true vision of them...

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMAgreed.  That is what I am trying to figure out - if I am totally missing the spiritual application of some scriptures - which I probably am.

From what I have seen of your posts, you are very "spiritually" informed bro, ...that said, the humility you express here is inspiring!

Quote from: willieH
ALL GENERATIONS take place within the DAY of the creation of GOD which is NOW -- Gen 2:4 -- ALL things that were part of the Creative work of GOD, were done by the conclusion of the 6th Day --  The SABBATH has NO beginning (morning) or end (evening)... and in the SABBATH are ALL THINGS found COMPLETE. 

CHRIST is the SABBATH rest of YHVH in which ALL THINGS are complete.

Gen 2:1 ...Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ALL the host of them

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMThis I can see, but I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

Until just recently, ...neither had I!  :mshock:

Quote
Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMI can sort of see this.  Satan is like our inner voice that convinces us its OK to eat the forbidden fruit.

If we seek harmony in the Scriptures, Eve's experience MUST be the same as James 1:14 notes it to be for EVERY man (woman)...

It is my observation, that "Christianity" gives OMNIPRESENCE and "beinghood" to a principality...  It makes LOGICAL sense that the "conversation" Eve had in the Garden, was with HERSELF, not a "talking snake"...  :dontknow: 

When it gets down to the truth, ...how many of us have had and DO HAVE, such "conversations"?   :wink1:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMWhat about Job?  God set Satan upon Job - was it only his dark self?  What about all the bad things that happened to Job?

I shall go out on a limb here... but GOD states we are made in HIS IMAGE after HIS LIKENESS, and why should WE have such "conversations" as I just mentioned, and He ...NOT?  In my belief in Him, I give God the lee-way to "think to Himself"... It is a principle which most everyone denies Him...

The "conversation" in Job, (as I see it, and I am capable of error), is His KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, taking place within HIM... (you are welcome to disagree with this)

Quote from: willieHIf you read the text... GOD proposed the whole she-bang!  It is GOD who brings these things upon JOB... (adversity speaking)

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMAgreed that God proposed the whole she-bang.  Its just the way Job 1 is written it looks like God is having a conversation with Satan.  But I suppose that could just be a literal interpetation of a spiritual/metaphorical passage?  I'm not sure.

It's okay to "not be sure"... It is the driving force which beckons us to continue to study!

If you take what I just said of the "conversations" of EVE in the Garden, and GOD with satan... what you have is...

willieH coming up to the "stop sign" on his way to work, without a "word" physically or audibly spoken, "saying to himself -- hmm, should I turn left here or go on down to the light?  I think I'll turn here..."  Who was I speaking (or not speaking) to?  Who answered?

As my wife, sitting in the seat NEXT to me, hears NOTHING of this "conversation"  :dontknow:  Yet it nevertheless, INDEED ...TOOK PLACE!

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMAlso (this is the big shocker) - are you saying the Lake of Fire is right now ie. this life?  Or only this life is Fire, but not the lake of fire specifically mentioned in Rev?  Is there still a LoF after death?

THIS LIFE, is the LOF!

Quote from: willieHI believe there is no "lake of FIRE" at the conclusion of this life...

I firmly believe that THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE... in which ALL DEATH, the 2nd DEATH (physical) and the GRAVE (hell) were cast...

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMI'm confused, perhaps not fully understanding the spiritual aspect of everything here.

I understand bro, ...take your time... re-read some of the passages in question, and seek via prayer, understanding from Father... He will clear things up for you, in His time...  As I said, I certainly don't know everything!  But am quite confident in where I stand.  :happy3:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMBut what about judgement day?

John 12:31 --- NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...  We are part of THIS WORLD are we not? and we exist in ..."NOW"... do we not?

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMie. the day of the lord?

If you will for a moment, just drop the LINEAR observations and realize that from the ETERNAL and UNMOVING perspective, that ALL is accomplished within the Declaration and Foreknowledge of GOD... IOW -- whatever GOD "foreknows" (which is EVERYTHING), it shall HAPPEN according to that "FOREKNOWLEDGE"

The Perfect FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, is the "DAY of the LORD"... which is found COMPLETE in the SABBATH...

Rom 4:17 ...and calleth those things which BE NOT, ...as though THEY WERE...

Whatever GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE indicates -- which is of events and beings which, according to time are YET to be manifest... When these things ARE indeed manifest in TIME, they shall occur EXACTLY as HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them noted!  This is HOW "prophecy" works... Could CHRIST have done other than that which was PROPHESIED of Him?  The answer is ...NO!  For if He had done other than that which was PROPHESIED of Him, the WORD of YHVH would be found as a FALSE WITNESS... bearing a LIE, ...inaccurate, ...incomplete...  to that I say HOGWASH! :mnah:

A while back it was revealed to me, that for instance... "Cain killing Abel"... could NOT have occured otherwise.  (I can almost see "eyes rolling" at this statement...  :laughing7:)

For the WORD of GOD does NOT NEED the manifestation of TIME in order to BE... (as Rom 4:17 and other verses state)... so the FACT that the account of this killing is found RECORDED in the WORD of God (which NEVER CHANGES), is an example to us that it could NOT have happened otherwise... irregardless of the imaginations of men which would propose it "could've", or "should've"... What "HAPPENS" in the course of the History of MAN is that which GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE indicated would HAPPEN.

What HAPPENS, is what HAPPENS... not the imaginary speculated "alternatives" men come up with in finite and sinfully infested, minds...

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMWhen do we give an account of what we have done?

We shall give account of ourselves (for OUR benefit)... which is nothing more than the exposure, good or bad, of what we DID while in the flesh of SIN (which contains "satan"=adversity to the COMMAND of GOD)...

When Adam & Eve had eaten, and GOD was calling for them in the Garden... Do we think He did not KNOW WHERE they WERE?   :laughing7:

And when He gained their audience... and they confessed they were "naked", to which God responded "who told thee that thou wast naked"... Was He investigating?  Or did He already KNOW ALL the facts?

It was for THEIR benefit that they "gave account" of their "nakedness"... and in the process, tried to "pass the buck"... which was NOT ALLOWED. (Adam blames the woman and GOD, then Eve blames the serpent)

As you read the curse given to the "serpent"... think about this:  Who "eats" of the dust?  Does not the food of man, ...come from the DUST?  What "snake" EATS of the dust?  ...isn't it interesting that JESUS on several occasions, called the Scribes & Pharisees -- SNAKES ["vipers"/serpents]... as they RELIGIOUSLY and TRADITIONALLY, ...MISLED the children of Israel!

Read YHVH's "curse" to Adam -- Gen 2:17 and compare it to the "curse" of the "serpent" -- Gen 2:14...

They are essentially, the SAME!  As GOD notes to ADAM that HE shall EAT of the DUST, and battle with it ALL the days of his life...  :dontknow:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMIs that is what is happening right now in this life?

YES... the "books" (mens lives) are open before Him...  :Book:

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMI've always viewed those things as happening after we die?  If they do happen after we die, that would mean the Lake Of fire must happen after we die.  Or do you mean the judgment before the GWT is happening right now, therefore we are in the lake of fire right now?

YES !!... who can deny the MANY "FIRES" which exist in THIS LIFE?  Not only is there "physical" FIRE, ...but what of the MENTAL "FIRES" of disappointment, defeat, sorrow... what of the HEART "FIRES" of passion, and anger... what of the "FIRE" of DEATH which TAKES AWAY one by one, ALL the LOVES of our lives... and the "FIRE" which assualts our HEALTH, burning us with disease, and pain... 

The LOF (within a book of SYMBOLS) is observed as a PHYSICAL FIRE, when it is ALL manner of FIRES, engaging each of us continually during THIS LIFE, in one form or another!

The "books" are OPEN before Him... WE, are the "books"... Rev 20:12... GOD does not need a "review" or account... WE DO...  We live and give our "account" to Him, moment by moment -- NOW, ...right before HIS EYES...

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMIts a bit of a paradigm shift for me.  And what about those who have died not knowing Christ?  Hitler?  Little babies?  It seems their "lake of fire" experience wasn't completed - therefore there must be more "lake of fire" after this life.

Well, "babies"  :btantrum: ...have no sinful account to give, for they neither DID Good nor Evil... they were only CONCIEVED in SIN... Ps 51:5 and need a spiritual re-birth from the dust of death they entered into...

As far as the rest of humanity, ...their deeds are yet to be exposed TO THEM and before ALL... GOD has already SEEN and KNOWN each and every DETAIL...

In this account, ...these shall (before the conclusion of the LAST DAY), DO as did those who were CHOSEN for REVELATION, in THIS LIFETIME... fall to the knee (in belief) and confess the name of CHRIST (unto Salvation)

It is the NAKEDNESS of SHAME men shall face in giving their "account" -- Rev 3:18

Quote from: willieHMy beliefs are not based upon "articles" written by others, so I have no web links to refer you to.  However I do have many agreements with J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach and L. Ray Smith... I can provide their links if you wish, but I do have a few differences with them as well...

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMI realize your beliefs are based off scripture, I was just looking for pointers for these ideas and a bigger explanation.  I've read Ray Smith's stuff ALOT, and Eby's stuff at least twice.  Haven't read Elwin Roach before.

Is there someone who explains this in as much detail as Ray Smith would for example?  I haven't seen Ray talk about these types of ideas before.  Pointers to more info (thus the request for articles/web sites/studies) would be helpful.

As I said, I have differences with these men as well as agreements... Ray Smith definitely has his ideas about the LOF... and I have read the entire LOF series he wrote (although it was a while back)... often finding disagreements with much of it...

Here is a link to Elwin Roach (he is quite a knowledgeable man!  I think you will enjoy his writings, and gain some new insights from him as well!):

http://www.godfire.net/index.html

Here is the Lake of Fire stuff for Roach:

http://www.godfire.net/Hellidx.html

Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 03:34:08 PMI see the potential of this idea, but am confused about a lot of scriptures.  I'm having trouble seeing how some concepts would fit in.  More study as always is needed  :grin:

Peace,
Legoman

You are on the trail of learning bro... I salute your desire and committment!  :boogie: :happyclap:

I am on this same trail myself... on it, ...I have found that there is NO CONDEMNATION in GOD, so the LOF has to be other than a VENGENT / CONDEMNING entity as it is proposed by most Christian Theologians (Ray Smith, included)...  As I see it presently, it is a CORRECTIONAL entity which contains TORMENT of suffering and Hardship (as was experienced by our Savior within it), and is PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST

We follow Him IN SUFFERING (within THIS LIFE) -- Heb 2:10 -- for the process of PERFECTION (completion) includes SUFFERING... 

It is significant to note that an often UNMENTIONED part of the LOF is "Brimstone"... and "Brimstone" is a PURIFYING agent...  :giveheart:

Keep digging in the field bro...  :handshake:  ...much TREASURE, yet to be found!  Prov 25:2 -- Matt 13:44

I'm proud to stand beside you and join you in this wonderful "excavation" project!  :gimmefive:

I'm still "up in the air" on some of this Willi, but I enjoyed your post and found it very interesting and informative. :thumbsup:.  Certainly things to consider further.  Bless you, James.

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7  The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Satan is no angelic being, who waged war with God, as the casual conversation clearly shows. However, Satan is also not some "inner self" of man either, and for the same reason.   :2c:

Paul

Cool verse..opens up interesting possibilities.

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Long time no speak bro!  Hope you are doing well...  :friendstu:

With all due respect, ...A slight objection to your view below... no offense intended!  :mblush:

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 01:55:27 AM
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7  The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."

Satan is no angelic being, who waged war with God, as the casual conversation clearly shows. However, Satan is also not some "inner self" of man either, and for the same reason.   :2c:

Paul

The conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD... 

No being can suggest to GOD, ANYTHING...

ONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...  :dontknow:

There are many times we have thoughts which are not outwardly expressed... silently asking OURSELVES things, silently conversing with ourselves... why should we LIMIT GOD, and say that He cannot do this? 

We are made in His image and LIKENESS... He is certainly able to at the very LEAST, do all that we can do and INFINITELY MORE...

This is a very fascinating discussion.

Willie.. I agree with you on a lot of points.

I would like to understand more of your thoughts of what happens when a person dies...
Could you expand a little on your beliefs in that area? I think we disagree on that, and I don't want to argue at all. I'm just curious as to what your beliefs are, that's all....  (It doesn't hurt to have too many different perspectives to ponder!! I love having different things to take apart in my mind and rebuild them and see where it leads.)

thanks bro..

Quote from: sparrow on May 19, 2009, 04:44:36 AM

I would like to understand more of your thoughts of what happens when a person dies...
Could you expand a little on your beliefs in that area?
thanks bro..

I was wondering the same thing...if all's now and complete, then what does bro willi see "ahead"?  :afFro:  Yeah, no arguing, everyone's free to see whatever it is God allows them to see, but curious, yes.  So since I was wondering the same thing, durn good question, Sparrow  :laughhand:

Deu 19:17  Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

Deu 19:18  And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Deu 19:19  Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Deu 19:20  And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Deu 19:21  And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.



Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:10  Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.



interesting article here

http://www.presence.tv/cms/con-out-of-darkness.php

and another here

http://www.presence.tv/cms/finalbattle.php

ok, so let me expand on my question willie...  :happygrin:

I guess what I'm really wondering about is..
- if our spirit does not go on to be with God when we die....   why not? Why must we be "turned off" and "tuned out" in a sense for a season? Sure, the same second we die, would be virtually the same second we are resurrected, even if it was 5,000 thousand years that we lay dormant, because it would seem instantaneous.
So.... why must our spirit lie dormant? I don't understand this viewpoint. and I would really like to understand it.

And then, when do all our spirits spring out of this dormant state?
and what happens then?





Just some points I wanted to add to your points..because I do think we agree on this:

Judgment is for instructional purposes. Judgment (rain) falls on ALL. Cause and effect.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust. We are ALL, BOTH just and unjust at the same time. There aren't a group of people who are "just" and then another group of people who are "unjust". We are all both.
The rain (judgement) falls on all. Some times it falls on us in and it is "just" because we perhaps did something to bring it about. We lie to someone, the person finds out, the person is hurt.... we are dealing with these feelings, this judgment, this "Fire". The person we lied to, just had "rain" fall on them "unjustly". But BOTH can learn from it.

I think we are all going to possibly learn from every life lived.

I've seen something quite a few times that wasn't the expression of the carnal nature or anything like that.  So, if Satan doesn't exist, per anyone's preferences on this thread, then I know for sure about the existence of Gargoyles 'cause I've seen them.  There is a 1Corinthians 12 operation of the Holy Spirit called the discerning of spirits, and I'm fully persuaded from how that operates in my life and ministry with real regularity that there's more than human and animal spirits, and that I'm not looking at something figurative, metaphorical, or allegorical.  I've seen blond Archangels pin somebody to the wall that tried to walk in the room, whether I was sharing the Word or simply praying the prayer of faith and interpreting other tongues according to the measure of my faith.  Whether a rose or a devil by any other name, I'm certain is the same; that it simply is what it simply is, even if someone wants to be deep about claiming there's no duality in the universe.  Came too late to bring me that philosophy.  I've seen the oddest things that you wouldn't think would be totally resolved with simply enforcing Satan's defeat and binding, although I understand the natural recoil of some 'cause not everything has a demonic origin or root.  It's amazing what happens when you simply take the Bible literally and imitate the faith and patience of those that have inherited any aspect of God's promises.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on May 17, 2009, 09:50:58 AM
I was watching a debate that was on tv not that long ago debating the existence of Satan...with carlton pearson (guy ive been listening to alot of sermons of lightly) was on the "non existent" side of satan.

So does he exist? surely he is talked about in the Bible...but in what way does he exist...what IS he really? is he a red guy with pointy horns and a pitchfork, is he a blue eyed bald woman in a black robe(passion of christ lol) or is he more figurative than that? a projection of our own sinful nature perhaps? Ive read some things that have debunked the "falling angel" story about him...so its called in the question what he really is.


thoughts?

Hi WillieH,  :hihat:

Quote from: WillieHThe conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD...  Satan only answered a question,

Maybe so, but that's not what's happening here in Job.   :2c:

Quote from: WillieHONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...

But this is not what's happening.... Indeed, Satan is not counseling, just answering a question was he not?  Your not suggesting God was talking to himself?


Paul 

The Christadelphians (A Group who do not believe Satan is a physical being) are unable to agree about the identity of the Tempter of Jesus. Most contemporary Christadelphians insist that Jesus was talking to Himself in the wilderness. Apart from the difficulty which this raises about the sinlessness of the Lord, it is arbitrary in the extreme to say that when Matthew reports that the Tempter "came up to Jesus and spoke" (Mat. 4:3), he meant that Jesus' own mind produced twisted versions of the Scriptures. Matthew ends the description of the Temptation by saying that the Devil departed and angels "came up to Him" (Mat. 4:11) to minister to Him. On what principle of interpretation can we justify taking the words "came up to Him" in two totally different senses in the same paragraph? Where in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation? It is most unnatural to think that Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself? If the departure of Satan means the cessation of human nature's temptation of Jesus, why may not the arrival of the angels be no more than the comfort of the spirit of God within Him?! Can anyone fail to see that the treatment of Scripture which the Christadelphians propose in this passage involves the overthrow of the plain meaning of language?

The older Christadelphians are rightly indignant that anyone could suggest that Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by His own mind. One Christadelphian writes: "Some think that the devil in the case of the temptation was Christ's own inclination; but this is untenable in view of the statement that 'when the devil had ended all the temptations, he departed from Him for a season.' It is also untenable in view of the harmony that existed between the mind of Christ and the will of the Father  (John 8:29). It might be added also that it is untenable because a tempter or devil, i.e. one who attempts to seduce to evil, is invariably a sinner (Matt 18:7, RSV) whether it is oneself or another.... [This is] illustrated also in Mark 4:19: 'The lusts of other things entering in choke the word.' Lusts, then, that 'enter in' and 'draw away' (James 1:14), being not legitimate desires...are forbidden and therefore sin. Jesus was not thus 'drawn away' or inclined from the right and consequently could not have been the devil or 'satan' in the case. The devil was obviously a sinner who aimed to divert Jesus from the path of obedience and wrested the Scriptures (Ps. 91:11,12) in the attempt. So that those who believe that Jesus Himself was the 'devil' and Satan [i.e. fellow Christadelphians] make Him a sinner, their protestations notwithstanding" (The "Devil" and "Satan" Scripturally Considered, by E.J.R.M., pp. 14, 15).

Pulled from  Anthony F. Buzzard  who gives a detailed account on this topic....
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/satan.htm


Paul

willieH: Hi sister S...  :cloud9:

Hope I can convey to you what I believe...  sometimes it is hard to put into words... :mblush:

Quote from: sparrow on May 19, 2009, 05:49:29 AM
ok, so let me expand on my question willie...  :happygrin:

I guess what I'm really wondering about is..
- if our spirit does not go on to be with God when we die....   why not?

I have never said that "our spirit" does not go on to be with God...

My belief is this... When man becomes a "LIVING SOUL"... the BREATH of GOD is combined with the FLESH...  The "spirit" that you or I might consider as "ours" is not ours at all.  It is HIS... and when we DIE... the soul that was realized by the combination of the TWO... goes to SLEEP... That is why there are DEAD in CHRIST...

If "Christians" --- NEVER DIE --- (which goes against Heb 9:27), then HOW are there "Dead IN CHRIST" -- "SLEEPING in JESUS"?  As stated in -- 1 Thess 4:13-16 

Btw... the word "SLEEP" as used in 1 Thess 4:13,14 & 15 -- 1 Cor 15:51 is KOIMAO [#G2837] which means ...DEAD...

And the word "DEAD" as used in 1 Thess 4:16 is NEKROS which is also found (to name a few of many places) in Matt 22:32 -- Mk 12:27 -- Luke 20:38 (concerning GOD) ...and Luke 24:46 -- Rev 1:18 (concerning CHRIST)

Let's face it... Paul is saying people that believe, DIE in CHRIST... They DO NOT "go to Heaven"...  We could argue the point until we are all DEAD, but it will happen anyway, irregardless of anyone's desire to AVOID it...  GOD told ADAM (and ALL DIE in ADAM), that He would RETURN to the DUST... Gen 3:19 (not "go to Heaven")

Since you wish to know what I believe, might I further say that we do NOT "spend" any TIME in the GRAVE... We become DISASSOCIATED with TIME at the MOMENT of DEATH... Only those who OBSERVE our DEATHS note TIME in association WITH IT...

IOW... ADAM has NOT "spent" even ONE SECOND of TIME, ...DEAD.  He is DORMANT.  As are ALL who DIE.  We cease involvment with TIME.  Ecclisiastes is quite thorough about explaining this for anyone who might wish further definition. 

Ecc 3 defines that which "goes on" in TIME, and NO ONE that is "DEAD" does ANY of these things... (dance, weep, build-up, embrace, love, speak, ...etc ...you get the idea! :wink:)

In Ecc 9:5-6 ...PLAINLY states that those who enter DEATH, do not have a PORTION (active part) in ANYTHING that is "DONE under the sun"... That which is "DONE" under the sun, are the ACTIVITIES of TIME.

It further states that JUDGMENT exists IN TIME -- Ecc 3:16 --- I saw UNDER THE SUN, the PLACE of JUDGMENT, that wickedness was THERE...

Quote from: sparrow on May 19, 2009, 05:49:29 AMWhy must we be "turned off" and "tuned out" in a sense for a season?

The vessels of DISHONOR, are active IN TIME... the vessels of HONOR are active IN ETERNITY... there is separation between the FINITE/EVIL realm, and the INFINITE/HOLY realm...  This TIME realm is the "AREA" of DEFILEMENT, used to indicate by our interactive experiences with IT and one another, ...the KNOWLEDGE.

Once the KNOWLEDGE is indicated in each... each is REMOVED from TIME... in DEATH... exiting TIME, to the ETERNAL from whence we ALL entered this realm, and where we ALWAYS ARE, and have ALWAYS BEEN.  :dontknow:

Quote from: sparrow on May 19, 2009, 05:49:29 AMSure, the same second we die, would be virtually the same second we are resurrected, even if it was 5,000 thousand years that we lay dormant, because it would seem instantaneous.
So.... why must our spirit lie dormant? I don't understand this viewpoint. and I would really like to understand it.

It IS instantaneous... for NO awareness of the passage of TIME is percieved by the DEAD.

Our "spirit" is that portion of YHVH that we ARE.  It is NEVER dormant.  However, the SOUL of man who each came into this realm and found DISHONOR, ...DIES... and until ALL have walked this course, ...NONE... are aware of the SPIRIT of HONOR which is found in that ETERNAL portion of YHVH that we ARE...

We each "spend" ZERO TIME dead... we each however, are BORN into, and DIE from the realm of TIME, in varying points within it.

Quote from: sparrow on May 19, 2009, 05:49:29 AMAnd then, when do all our spirits spring out of this dormant state?
and what happens then?

Our SOULS re-emerge into the ETERNAL realm @ resurrection... SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Even though we ENTER and EXIT TIME at different points IN TIME... the ETERNAL realm has NO such POINTS as ENTRY and EXIT... for an ENTRY is a beginning, and an EXIT is an END, ...our existence in ETERNITY just IS...  (This is hard to explain, because I am FINITE as well as are you... attempting to relate my vision of this matter!  Forgive me if it sounds confusing...  :blush: )

We do not spend "TIME" in ETERNITY, for TIME is not a parameter or measurement, OF IT...

When you stick your foot in a pool of water, are you not both IN and OUT of the water at the same TIME?  Can you be considered both WET and DRY simultaneously because your "foot" is in the water, but the rest of you is NOT? 

I believe (albeit as finite as anyone else) it is within a similar principle (please allow for  my own finite limitations to be considered as I try to convey this) that we are both IN TIME and IN ETERNITY... simultaneously... For we are each portions of YHVH (being His TEMPLE and the BODY of CHRIST = His DWELLING place) for He IS ...ALL in ALL... and HE never changes... but just as we might stick our foot" in the water... does He dip EACH of us in the REALM of TIME, to learn the KNOWLEDGE of G & E...

Quote from: sparrow on May 19, 2009, 05:49:29 AMJust some points I wanted to add to your points..because I do think we agree on this:

Judgment is for instructional purposes. Judgment (rain) falls on ALL. Cause and effect.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust. We are ALL, BOTH just and unjust at the same time. There aren't a group of people who are "just" and then another group of people who are "unjust". We are all both.
The rain (judgement) falls on all. Some times it falls on us in and it is "just" because we perhaps did something to bring it about. We lie to someone, the person finds out, the person is hurt.... we are dealing with these feelings, this judgment, this "Fire". The person we lied to, just had "rain" fall on them "unjustly". But BOTH can learn from it.

I think we are all going to possibly learn from every life lived.

Nicely said Sparrow... I agree we are all going to learn from every life lived, for we are all PART of one another... the BODY of CHRIST, CHILDREN of YHVH, and TEMPLE of the LIVING GOD...

:Peace:

willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

Quote from: WillieHThe conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD...  Satan only answered a question,

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:06:54 AMMaybe so, but that's not what's happening here in Job.   :2c:

That is your  :2c: and you are welcome to spend it however you choose, bro... But to say "THAT is NOT what's happening here in Job"... is only that  :2c: expressed, ...and nothing more... The fact you say that it is "NOT what's happening here in Job"... certainly does NOT prove that this claim, ...is true...  :dontknow:

Quote from: WillieHONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:06:54 AMBut this is not what's happening.... Indeed, Satan is not counseling, just answering a question was he not?

Paul!  ..."satan" suggests to GOD (a "suggestion" is an "advisement"):

Job 2:5 "but put forth THY HAND now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse THEE to THY face."

And WHAT happens then Paul?  I'll tell you what happens -- GOD, complies with this suggestion of "satan":

Job 2:6   And YHVH said unto "satan" behold he is in thine hand, but save his life...  :dontknow:

Sorry bro... we next see the "SUGGESTION" was then carried out:

Job 2:7  so went '"satan" forth from the presence of YHVH, and smote JOB with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown

And so the suggestion was thereby carried out... meaning that GOD complied with "satan"... and thereby was ADVISED by "satan"...

If indeed it is as you observe... however... as I said earlier...

Because you refuse to see this with your  :2c:  Does not make it so!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:06:54 AMYour not suggesting God was talking to himself?

Paul

And WHY NOT?  :dontknow:  We ALL, ...OFTEN, ...have such conversations with ourselves, do we not?  In our THINKING and SILENT inner selves...  :JCThink:

MANY things occur, which are not outwardly and AUDIBLY noted to others, BY US...  We are made in HIS IMAGE... that we "think things over" and "mull over the choices we have"... As I see it, this is evidence to me that HE does the same... (albeit in a far larger sense)...

Before He created everything... do you think it just all, "popped out of Him"? ...or is it likelier that He "thought out the whole thing?"  If not, why are we ADVISED by HIM to "count the costs?" before entering into a given thing... WISDOM, does not RUSH INTO things, it considers BEFORE it acts...

Luke 14:28 -- For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down FIRST, and COUNTETH the COST, whether he hath sufficient to finish it?

Are we "crazy" because we converse inwardly?  Of course not... and neither could GOD be considered such, as HE considers beforehand, what THAT which, He does...  :mnah:

The "trying" of Job makes MUCH MORE sense, that GOD observed Job as righteous, but without having been tested,  and then proceeds to TEST him... for our benefit, and an example for us to see...

We are TESTED often in life, as well... not by some mythical being named "satan", but in the FIREY and "BRIMSTONEY" -- trials of life, presented by YHVH...

Which is also WHY, we are NOT to worry... but to TRUST, during the times of TESTING, that we are in HIS HAND... and HE shall carry us to deliverance from that trial...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on May 19, 2009, 10:02:23 PM
willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

Quote from: WillieHThe conversation occuring in Job is one such as we have within ourselves... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL depicted within the mind of GOD...  Satan only answered a question,

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:06:54 AMMaybe so, but that's not what's happening here in Job.   :2c:

That is your  :2c: and you are welcome to spend it however you choose, bro... But to say "THAT is NOT what's happening here in Job"... is only that  :2c: expressed, ...and nothing more... The fact you say that it is "NOT what's happening here in Job"... certainly does NOT prove that this claim, ...is true...  :dontknow:

Quote from: WillieHONLY God can suggest to GOD, for NO one is EVER His "counsellor" -- Rom 11:34 ...NO ONE!

Including the deception of depicting "satan" as a being (which the text does NOT so define),   ...here observed by some, as "advising" GOD in these passages... informing Him of things of which He inquires (as most observe the text surfacely suggesting), ...seeking answers, which are answered by another entity OTHER than Himself... :mnah:

I say that this concept violates the Scripture AND the Sovereign power of YHVH...

NO being EVER "counsels" GOD...  EVER! :thumbdown: 

Just as you in your car with your wife next to you, and you approach a stop sign and converse with yourself:  "hmmm... should I turn left here, or go on to the stoplight -- I'll go to the stoplight"... your wife never heard a WORD of this conversation, but it took place nevertheless... the "conversation" was exclusively and SILENTLY between YOU and YOU...

YOU asked the question and YOU gave YOURSELF, the answer...

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:06:54 AMBut this is not what's happening.... Indeed, Satan is not counseling, just answering a question was he not?

Paul!  ..."satan" suggests to GOD (a "suggestion" is an "advisement"):

Job 2:5 "but put forth THY HAND now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse THEE to THY face."

And WHAT happens then Paul?  I'll tell you what happens -- GOD, complies with this suggestion of "satan":

Job 2:6   And YHVH said unto "satan" behold he is in thine hand, but save his life...  :dontknow:

Sorry bro... we next see the "SUGGESTION" was then carried out:

Job 2:7  so went '"satan" forth from the presence of YHVH, and smote JOB with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown

And so the suggestion was thereby carried out... meaning that GOD complied with "satan"... and thereby was ADVISED by "satan"...

If indeed it is as you observe... however... as I said earlier...

Because you refuse to see this with your  :2c:  Does not make it so!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:06:54 AMYour not suggesting God was talking to himself?

Paul

And WHY NOT?  :dontknow:  We ALL, ...OFTEN, ...have such conversations with ourselves, do we not?  In our THINKING and SILENT inner selves...  :JCThink:

MANY things occur, which are not outwardly and AUDIBLY noted to others, BY US...  We are made in HIS IMAGE... that we "think things over" and "mull over the choices we have"... As I see it, this is evidence to me that HE does the same... (albeit in a far larger sense)...

Before He created everything... do you think it just all, "popped out of Him"? ...or is it likelier that He "thought out the whole thing?"  If not, why are we ADVISED by HIM to "count the costs?" before entering into a given thing... WISDOM, does not RUSH INTO things, it considers BEFORE it acts...

Luke 14:28 -- For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down FIRST, and COUNTETH the COST, whether he hath sufficient to finish it?

Are we "crazy" because we converse inwardly?  Of course not... and neither could GOD be considered such, as HE considers beforehand, what THAT which, He does...  :mnah:

The "trying" of Job makes MUCH MORE sense, that GOD observed Job as righteous, but without having been tested,  and then proceeds to TEST him... for our benefit, and an example for us to see...

We are TESTED often in life, as well... not by some mythical being named "satan", but in the FIREY and "BRIMSTONEY" -- trials of life, presented by YHVH...

Which is also WHY, we are NOT to worry... but to TRUST, during the times of TESTING, that we are in HIS HAND... and HE shall carry us to deliverance from that trial...

...willieH  :cloud9:

I understand what you're getting at here, Willie, and I think I tend to agree with you, at least to a point. My question though, is that if this is God talking to himself, what do we make of the passage that says that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all? (We know from Isaiah that He creates evil, but it is an entirely different matter to suggest that He contains evil within Himself) Also, what does the verse; "I have created the waster to destroy" mean in the context you're suggesting?

Any enlightenment here would be appreciated.  :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi again, Paul :hithere:

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:23:19 AM
The Christadelphians (A Group who do not believe Satan is a physical being) are unable to agree about the identity of the Tempter of Jesus. Most contemporary Christadelphians insist that Jesus was talking to Himself in the wilderness. Apart from the difficulty which this raises about the sinlessness of the Lord

Why in the world would CHRIST's "sinlessness" be called into question by this? 

CHRIST was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5 and James 1:14 that EVERY MAN (which INCLUDES CHRIST)... is tempted by the desires which emerge from the flesh... TEMPTATION does NOT EQUATE to SIN... SIN is born, at the INDULGENCE of the TEMPTATION... (lust "CONCIEVING")

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:23:19 AMit is arbitrary in the extreme to say that when Matthew reports that the Tempter "came up to Jesus and spoke" (Mat. 4:3), he meant that Jesus' own mind produced twisted versions of the Scriptures.[/color] Matthew ends the description of the Temptation by saying that the Devil departed and angels "came up to Him" (Mat. 4:11) to minister to Him. On what principle of interpretation can we justify taking the words "came up to Him" in two totally different senses in the same paragraph?

Sorry, but it is argueable that "came UP" is the proper wording... the KJV notes "came" (no "up" -- which seems to suggest LOCATION)

NON PERSONAGE -- Matt 4:3  and when the tempter ...CAME... to Him, he said, if thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

PERSONAGE -- Matt 4:11  then the devil leaveth Him, and behold ANGELS ...CAME... and ministered unto Him...

For example:

IDEAS "come" to me as I write songs... they are NOT PERSONAGES... and IN THOSE VERY MOMENTS, ...my wife "comes" to me with a sandwich in the studio... which IS a PERSONAGE...

Your observation is that which is EXAGGERATED and EXTREME as I see it Paul (no offense)

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:23:19 AMWhere in Scripture does human nature come up to a person and speak, and hold an extended conversation? It is most unnatural to think that Jesus invited himself to fall down before himself and worship himself?

Again, I disagree for CHRIST was TEMPTED ...AS... are we... (in the SAME MANNER) Heb 4:15

JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5

And EVERY MAN is tempted via the same procedure:  James 1:14

JESUS did not "invite Himself" to SIN... His HUNGER (after a 40 day/night FAST) which is of the FLESH, called to Him and the POWER within Him, which He KNEW He had, and which was definitely available to Him, and easily afforded Him the capability of "making the stones, bread"...  :dontknow:

This is an ELEMENTARY observation bro... you are beyond this!  :dontknow:

We ALL have our "human nature" coming unto us DAILY "speaking" this or that to us in our minds... get real Paul!  You can't turn on a TV without SUGGESTION being made to your MIND, on an almost CONTINUING basis... Or driving by BILLBOARDS, or hearing humans converse... Please!

"Falling down" to "WORSHIP" is to INDULGE oneself in that which one KNOWS is contrary to the COMMAND of GOD -- thereby "worshipping" the disobedience, instead of the COMMAND, ...this is an aspect which is INHERENT in the nature of men, and was so from the BEGINNING of the Human race...

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:23:19 AMIf the departure of Satan means the cessation of human nature's temptation of Jesus, why may not the arrival of the angels be no more than the comfort of the spirit of God within Him?! Can anyone fail to see that the treatment of Scripture which the Christadelphians propose in this passage involves the overthrow of the plain meaning of language?

Don't know about these "Christadelphians", dont care...  Their observations are theirs, mine are mine... if they agree, fine... "agreement" doesnt matter...  :dontknow:

HUNGER is a human experience that can find "cessation" aside from SUPERNATURAL means.

IMO it is you which are trying to create something in the TEMPTATION of CHRIST which is NOT there, and is ANTI-Scriptural...  :dontknow: ...in order to keep alive, your agreement with the Orthodox, and Traditional Christian position that "satan" is an (OMNIPRESENT) "being" (which is NOT noted as a "being" within the WORD)

Quote from: Pierac on May 19, 2009, 07:23:19 AMThe older Christadelphians are rightly indignant that anyone could suggest that Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by His own mind. One Christadelphian writes: "Some think that the devil in the case of the temptation was Christ's own inclination; but this is untenable in view of the statement that 'when the devil had ended all the temptations, he departed from Him for a season.' It is also untenable in view of the harmony that existed between the mind of Christ and the will of the Father  (John 8:29). It might be added also that it is untenable because a tempter or devil, i.e. one who attempts to seduce to evil, is invariably a sinner (Matt 18:7, RSV) whether it is oneself or another.... [This is] illustrated also in Mark 4:19: 'The lusts of other things entering in choke the word.' Lusts, then, that 'enter in' and 'draw away' (James 1:14), being not legitimate desires...are forbidden and therefore sin. Jesus was not thus 'drawn away' or inclined from the right and consequently could not have been the devil or 'satan' in the case. The devil was obviously a sinner who aimed to divert Jesus from the path of obedience and wrested the Scriptures (Ps. 91:11,12) in the attempt. So that those who believe that Jesus Himself was the 'devil' and Satan [i.e. fellow Christadelphians] make Him a sinner, their protestations notwithstanding" (The "Devil" and "Satan" Scripturally Considered, by E.J.R.M., pp. 14, 15).

"Rightly" indignant Paul?  Says you... :rolleye:

What a bunch of "out-of-the-way" rambling is this?  You are wandering far from the discussion... this  TOPIC is not about the conflicting philosophies of "Christadelphians" which have garnered your "discussion attention"... it is about "What is satan"...

It does not matter that some of these older Christadelphians think on this subject, one way and younger others, another... thereby proving your view as true!  Don't make me :laugh:

What TOPICALLY matters here, is the observation of "what is satan"... and all your quotes of the "Christadelphians" and their conflicting theological viewpoints within their obviously divided "religious thought", does nothing to "establsh" YOUR observation of "what is satan"... nor does it serve to "correct" MINE...

That some MEN think one way (which agrees with you), and you thereby attempt to enlist their thinking to cement your viewpoint, is sorrowfully weak bro...   :pitiful:

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on May 19, 2009, 11:17:51 PM

"Rightly" indignant Paul?  Says you... :rolleye:

No, not me but Anthony Buzzard.  Read my post again.    :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
What a bunch of "out-of-the-way" rambling is this?  You are wandering far from the discussion... this  TOPIC is not about the conflicting philosophies of "Christadelphians" which have garnered your "discussion attention"... it is about "What is satan"...

It does not matter that some of these older Christadelphians think on this subject, one way and younger others, another... thereby proving your view as true!  Don't make me :laugh:

What TOPICALLY matters here, is the observation of "what is satan"... and all your quotes of the "Christadelphians" and their conflicting theological viewpoints within their obviously divided "religious thought", does nothing to "establsh" YOUR observation of "what is satan"... nor does it serve to "correct" MINE...

That some MEN think one way (which agrees with you), and you thereby attempt to enlist their thinking to cement your viewpoint, is sorrowfully weak bro...   :pitiful:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Just wanted to let you others know that Christadelphians have the exact same view you teach regarding Satan, it's nothing new. I also offered a link to a counter response from Anthony Buzzard. I though you might like to know of a Group that supports your view. But also offer a counter view for those who might want to read both sides of an issue.  :cool:

Willie.... thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions.
Going to have to read and re-read and ponder that one for awhile. (and probably re-read it again... lol.)
Thanks brother, I appreciate it!

willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

Quote from: Pierac on May 20, 2009, 12:03:52 AM
Just wanted to let you others know that Christadelphians have the exact same view you teach regarding Satan, it's nothing new.

Okay brother P, sorry for misunderstanding you...  :mblush:  ...Of course it is nothing "new" it is the truth, and the truth has no age...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Pierac on May 20, 2009, 12:03:52 AMI also offered a link to a counter response from Anthony Buzzard. I though you might like to know of a Group that supports your view. But also offer a counter view for those who might want to read both sides of an issue. :cool:

That's cool... However, it doesn't matter to me whether or not anyone "agrees" with me... I believe what I believe... and those beliefs are not based on agreements with anything other than the Scriptures... :wink:

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

Quote from: Doc on May 19, 2009, 10:36:00 PM
I understand what you're getting at here, Willie, and I think I tend to agree with you, at least to a point. My question though, is that if this is God talking to himself, what do we make of the passage that says that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all?

That GOD is light and "in Him is no darkness at all... means that within Him in the Eternal realm, no darkness is IN HIM... That He created EVIL to be in this realm, and holds the KNOWLEDGE of it, does not mean that there is DARKNESS "in Him"...

We do the things of EVIL and yet -- Acts 17:28 -- "IN HIM we live and move and have our being"  :dontknow:

I believe the statement which notes that "IN HIM, is NO darkness... means that His DOINGS and INTENTIONS are about LIGHT, and making that LIGHT known.  This is done by the EXPOSURE of DARKNESS (which He created) to the LIGHT (which He IS)...

Quote from: Doc on May 19, 2009, 10:36:00 PM(We know from Isaiah that He creates evil, but it is an entirely different matter to suggest that He contains evil within Himself) Also, what does the verse; "I have created the waster to destroy" mean in the context you're suggesting?

Any enlightenment here would be appreciated.  :thumbsup:

The waster which "destroys" ...is another element which is in DIRECT opposition to GOD who prospers and "creates"... 

In all things, GOD made an OPPOSITE which was set in place to DEFINE its OPPOSITE... North/south -- inside/outside -- Tall/short -- heavy/light -- new/old -- fast/slow -- the list is endless... But ALWAYS in EVERY CASE, an OPPOSITE is necessary to DEFINE its OPPOSITE...  If you just had "UP" what would determine it?  "DOWN", indicates "UP" and vice-versa...  :dontknow:

don't know if I answered your questions Doc... but I tried!  :prankster:  :pointlaugh:

Peace bro...

Thanks for the posts Willie, much to think on there.

One question about the LoF being "now".

How does the elect/non-elect fit into this view?  Are only the elect in the LoF now, and the non-elect will go through the LoF after death?  I don't think everyone reaps what they sow in this life.  If that were true, Hitler would have already received his just judgment... perhaps he did, but I have a hard time seeing it.

Interested in your thoughts.

Legoman

willieH: Hi Lego... :hithere:

Sorry ahead of time for the long-windedness of this post...  :blush:

Quote from: legoman on May 20, 2009, 03:44:23 PM
Thanks for the posts Willie, much to think on there.

One question about the LoF being "now".

How does the elect/non-elect fit into this view?

CHRIST was even "tried in FIRE" -- Rev 3:18

Mark 9:49 (a verse no ET person quotes, even though they often quote this part of the NT, but ALWAYS stop, ...at vs 48  :laughing7:):  For EVERY ONE shall be salted WITH FIRE and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Salt is a "flavoring" and a "preservative"...

PAUL notes that we are to be LIVING SACRIFICES -- Rom 12:1 -- and that which is realized in this brand of "sacrifice" abides the FIRE -- 1 Cor 3:14-15

Quote from: legoman on May 20, 2009, 03:44:23 PMAre only the elect in the LoF now, and the non-elect will go through the LoF after death?

I believe we are ALL in the Lake of FIRE... and that THIS LIFE is that FIRE... FIRE comes in many forms other than the Physical, there is FIRE in passion, FIRE in pain, FIRE in disappointment, FIRE in loss of loved ones, FIRE in teamwork, ...etc ...ALL these are a "burning" of sorts...

There are many verses which allude to THIS LIFE as a FIRE... here are a few:

Rev 3:18 -- CHRIST's "GOLD" was TRIED, in FIRE of THIS LIFE...

Rev 2:18 -- ALL events of THIS LIFE take place before those FIREY "eyes"...

1 Peter 1:7 -- Our FAITH (which is NOW) is "tried" by FIRE, in THIS LIFE...

Eph 6:16 -- The FIERY "darts" are found in THIS LIFE...

Quote from: legoman on May 20, 2009, 03:44:23 PMI don't think everyone reaps what they sow in this life.  If that were true, Hitler would have already received his just judgment... perhaps he did, but I have a hard time seeing it.

It's okay, don't feel bad about having a hard time seeing, Revelation is a process, and we all walk the pathway as individuals, that lead us to it... what will be, ...will be.

None of us really knows the details of Hitler, or the dealings of God, ...with him, so we are unable to denote that he did not recieve what was "due him"... JESUS specifically instructed to JUDGE NOT... therefore, in the matter of another, ...ANY other (including Hitler), we are to abstain from concluding them, on behalf of GOD... let us leave their JUDGMENT to Him.  My Bible says to FORGIVE enemies... this is become my vision, ...that the "JUDGMENT of GOD"... to FORGIVE, where otherwise is DUE...  :dontknow:

LOVE is devoid of FEAR and TORMENT... 1 John 4:14 -- and there is NO torment or fear wherein is found PEACE...  The GOSPEL ...and... GOD are specifically in the NT, denoted as PEACE --

GOD --  Rom 15:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23 -- 1 Cor 14:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL --  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

I believe that GOD is LOVE... and the GOSPEL that I preach is devoid of EVERYTHING but LOVE and PEACE... Good News ONLY... no bad. 

Which is why you shall see from me, that I preach it to be JOY which is to come, and that GRACE does MUCH MORE "abound" wherever SIN "abounded"... That there is not WORSE to come, but BETTER... And that FORGIVENESS for even one such as Hitler... is the Greatest of GLORY that shall ENHANCE our God in our eyes... as even the most "vile" of us, are accepted into His LOVE... displaying the INFINITE length of His LOVING ARMS -- Isaiah 50:2

We as men, call for the "eye for eye", because it is NATURAL to do so... this is WHY there are TWO TESTAMENTS in the Scriptures...  Most do not see this. 

(1)  The OLD TESTAMENT is exactly that, ...OLD.  For it is UNFULFILLED.  It contains the LAW which (righteously) ACCUSES each of us, and which NONE of us can keep.  It demands VENGENCE and KILLING.  It, chronologically, is FIRST in the DIVINE order of YHVH (first the Natural, then the Spiritual 1 Cor 15:46), which makes it the "NATURAL Testament".  It displays MEN dealing with one another in their "eye for eye" hearts... and GOD dealing with them, as they deal with one another.

However...

(2)  The NEW TESTAMENT, is the FULFILLING of the OLD.  Where the OLD, lacked... the NEW FULFILLS... the OLD prophesied, the NEW FULFILLED... the NEW is filled with LIFE, the OLD is filled with DEATH... The NEW brings FORGIVENESS and VICTORY, the OLD breeds FAITHLESSNESS.  The OLD found GOD's people IMPRISONED, the NEW displays the ROAD to FREEDOM.  I could go on for hours about this... for it is so obvious to me, and yet I am often seen as a nut case by many (even here at TM) because my teaching never points to the NEGATIVE, rather always to the POSITIVE.  I see THIS LIFE which is filled with TORMENT and LOSS, eventually DEATH for ALL, as the OLD TESTAMENT, and the one in resurrection and IN CHRIST, and SALVATION to LIFE for ALL, ...as the NEW TESTAMENT...  I am forever bound to this teaching, and gladly so.

Concerning the "sowing/reaping" issue ...we cannot see all the detail of the others life, but GOD does.  Paul says that what we SOW of the FLESH is reaped of the Flesh... And it is GOD's mandate to us to FORGIVE those which persecute and bring harm to us.  Why?  Because THAT is what is to come for ALL...

Part of our JUDGMENT is recieving REWARD... The HIGHEST Reward we can recieve is to be COMMENDED by the MOST HIGH... ("Well done, good and FAITHFUL servant") Not additional swimming pools or, extra cable channels in Heaven!  :laughing7:

Those who receive NOT the COMMENDATION of the MOST HIGH, shall suffer the LOSS of that ETERNAL and EVERLASTING, COMMENDATION...  :dontknow:

Those who gain that very SPECIAL COMMENDATION shall FOREVER realize it in their hearts... It is not just a "HEY -- nice job, dudes" -- thing, said by YHVH at the moment of resurrection, and then eventually, forgotten...

It shall "musically" RING -- ETERNALLY ...the SONG of RIGHTEOUSNESS which was SACRIFICIALLY done by the elect, ...while they were amidst UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... LIGHT shown amidst DARKNESS... TRUTH amidst LIES, ...SACRIFICE amidst INDULGENCE,  ...Again, I could go on for hours about what the "REWARD" really is... and believe me, it is mispercieved by almost everyone, even those who bear the name of the MOST HIGH... expecting extra "bennies" in the Heavenly realm, bound in the carnal and selfish thoughts of this existent plane, ...instead of SEEING and KNOWING the riches of HEAVENLY LOVE.  Picturing GOD as giving "extra" THRONEROOM priviledges to some and leaving the "undesireables" outside the gate... :rolleye:

In reading the Parable of the LOST SON... both of them had lessons to learn, and both recieved the paramount LOVE of the Father... The LOST younger one, is found and celebration is enacted... the Elder one... is steeped in jealousy, and pride, and was taught that the FAMILY was INCOMPLETE without the LOST one... and that ALL ALONG, the riches of the Father were at his service...  :dontknow:  ...the Parable actually not about either Son, but about the LOVE of the Father for BOTH.

I have been married for 33 years.  And I can tell you that I have failed in my marriage many times.  And for each time that I failed my wife, ...if I could, I would have done or said otherwise.  But in those 33 years... I have found a treasure in her LOVE, which actually brought me from the clutches of DEATH during a surgery/recovery process last September.  It was Her LOVE, completely immersed and dedicated, and used by the LOVE of YHVH, that kept me alive on the brink of death.

I, during that FIREY and SORROWFUL trial, got a glimpse of the LOVE which is to come for ALL... and NO DEATH, Torment or Suffering is even REMOTELY associated with it...  :HeartThrob:

No, dear friend... THIS LIFE is the Lake of FIRE...

Quote from: legoman on May 20, 2009, 03:44:23 PMInterested in your thoughts.

Legoman

As am I, in yours bro!  :cloud9:

:Peace:

...willieH  :friendstu:

You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

Thanks for the post Willie - I totally agree with you about the fire in this life... I assumed it was the same type of fire as the LoF, but not the LoF itself.  But I am starting to see the possibilities.

For example it always confused me that those who believe get aionios life NOW and this life is to know Christ.  So the elect know Christ now and know (at least some of) the purposes for this life.  The non-elect don't know Christ and lead a purposeless life.  In some ways the life of the "elect" is a burden - you can feel isolated by not being in the "majority" with the world, but on the other hand you get a great sense of peace knowing that there is a reason for everything that is happening.  You can trust that God will work things out for the good of all.  The non-elect have no such hope.  The non-elect pursue things of the world - wealth, power, status, etc. but it always ends up being empty and unfullfilling - and they don't know why - its sad.

Also when it talks about the "saints" judging the world... as I am learning there are many different types of judgment.  For example, we are to love our enemies.  We are to be kind to them as this will be like "heaping hot coals on their heads" - so in this manner the "elect" judges the "non-elect", by doing kindness to them.  This is probably tormenting to an enemy, to have your evil acts repaid with kindness, when he is looking for a fight.

The torment "day and night" in Rev 14:11 makes perfect sense if one supposes the LoF is this life.

Regarding Hitler - perhaps he went through more torment that we know.  He had all the power of his country and army, yet he ended up killing himself.  Probably had ulcers and nightmares....

This is an interesting idea; Can't say I'm on board yet, but I will keep it in mind as I continue my studies.  I'm still working my way through the bible for the first time (since I came to understand UR last year). I'm not sure how everything fits, but eventually I will know one way or another  :Sparkletooth: 

Thanks Willie - I am only 36, have been married 7 years and have a wonderful 4 year old daughter.  I still have a lot to learn, even my daughter is teaching me so much.

Peace.

willieH: Hi doc...  :cloud9:

coupla comments bro...   :blahgreen: :blah: :blahgreen:

This will be PART ONE -- MILLENNIUM :declare: 

This is going to be tough to put into words, so please bear with me,  ...it may take re-reading and a few questions to become clear... sorry, but I am not the best at putting into words, that which I have been given to see...  :sigh:

Might I say that SPIRITUAL understanding of the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, requires the abandonment of the NATURAL... and all parameters that measure things in the NATURAL...

In our endeavor, if we seek SPIRITUAL understanding by applying NATURAL designations upon Him, we unfortunately shall arrive at NATURAL (unspiritual) conclusions. 

It is hard to be a NATURAL man (which we all are), and endeavor to leave yourself and your natural eyes behind, in order to FIND the vision of a being which has NO NATURAL parameters or definition...

Yet, ...IS... the beginning and end of ALL that is in the NATURAL! (alpha & omega)  CHRIST has neither  beginning or end, ...but is BOTH to all that have these FINITE boundaries...

Whew!  :heat:  It is hard even to try to begin or preface a discussion of a subject without a beginning!  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 09:34:50 PM
You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

MILLENNIUM:  To begin with, the term "MILLENNIUM" is an UnBiblical term... and the "1000" year "age" indicated in the Revelation, ...is completely  SYMBOLIC, not Literal... 

I believe the "1000 years" mentioned in Rev 20 -- is the conversion experience within the DAY of GOD in which all generations exist... Gen 2:4 -- and this "1000 years" does not "follow" any "CHRONOLOGY" of TIME, ...for it is part of the REVELATION (revealing) of a being -- JESUS CHRIST, which has NO "CHRONOLOGY"... 

IOW... how can I use "apple pie" to define "ALGEBRA"?  One actually has nothing to do with the other... TIME has nothing to do with defining the ETERNAL (JESUS CHRIST), and cannot provide definition OF IT (Him).

As I see it, in order to SPIRITUALLY understand the SYMBOLISM within the term "1000 years" as mentioned in Rev 20, we must first abandon the idea and (natural) inclination of  applying NATURAL CHRONOLOGY to it.  For if we apply or attach FINITE and PHYSICAL boundaries (such as time) to this terminology, we shall arrive at an UNSPIRITUAL conclusion concerning it.  (My  :2c:)

The binding of "satan" is done within the FAITH of (and in) men, which is authored by CHRIST (all FAITH -- before and after the manifestation of the life of JESUS CHRIST is authored by Him -- Heb 12:2)...

Those who have had "FAITH authored", ...are no longer decieved by their flesh -- as Paul notes this within himself -- Rom 7:22-25...

"satan" bound is accomplished by CHRIST, within the obedience of those in whom He has "authored FAITH", and thereby submit to the COMMAND of GOD... As He does so in BELIEVERS, this "principality" within the heart of  NATURAL men (still in the FLESH of NATURE), is thereby imprisoned in a "bottomless pit" (representative of forever)... 

Revelation 20:5 which states that the rest of the "DEAD" (which implies that those who "rule and reign" with CHRIST were once "DEAD") lived not until the "1000 years" were FINISHED (complete), ...means that when FAITH is completed in the ELECT in this time realm... then shall ALL others find LIFE... which is found exclusively  IN CHRIST -- John 14:6

"satan" loosed... is within the (unbroken circle) DAY of GOD, in which ALL generations exist, ...in ALL directions simultaneously, ...is the "place" where skeptics, unbelievers, athiests, pagan religions, etc... are found existent... OUTSIDE, before and after those who are CONVERTED.

Remember, as I noted earlier... CHRONOLOGY must be abandoned in order to get the  Revelation vision of a being [JESUS CHRIST] which is NOT SUBJECT to it...

IOW... CHRIST exists in ALL directions... no beginning or ending... an "unbroken CIRCLE" is the best illustration I can muster... The observance of an unbroken circle notes no beginning or ending.  Just a continuing circle with neither of these parameters applicable to it. 

Rev 20:7 -- notes that when the "1000 years" are "expired" (which means COMPLETE)... then is "satan" loosed to decieve.  This "COMPLETION" is done Believer, by Believer... IOW -- Prior to AND after, Paul's conversion took place -- "satan" was LOOSE... but withIN the CONVERSION was "satan" BOUND...

Paul recognized this process (1000 yrs) within himself in Romans 7... as he deduced in describing his own experience, that "satan" was his flesh, WARRING against the inward man CHRIST...

The inward man was COMPLETE (1000 yrs) in him, ...yet even though he (Paul) was now set to DO as he willed, the FLESH in which he lived, would make WAR against that "will", and at times be victorious -- Rom 7:25 = "satan" LOOSED again...

I wish to comment on the "BEAST" and "FALSE PROPHET", but will do so in another post, this is enough for now... But these TWO entities (in my observation) are absolutely NOT what Orthodoxy indicates them to be...

Talk2ya later bro...  :HeartThrob:  Got to go finish recording a song I am working on...

...willieH :cloud9:

Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 02:14:27 AM
Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on May 21, 2009, 03:33:57 AM

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 02:14:27 AM
Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I can see that a 1000 years is likened to a day in scripture (and the other way around), so I can see how the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation could be referring to a 'day' or 'the day' of the Lord, yes.

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 03:45:33 AM

Quote from: Taffy on May 21, 2009, 03:33:57 AM

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 02:14:27 AM
Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I can see that a 1000 years is likened to a day in scripture (and the other way around), so I can see how the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation could be referring to a 'day' or 'the day' of the Lord, yes.

right on!   :goodpost:  In all my blabbering I forgot to include this element, thanks Graham & Doc!

Btw, Doc... I didn't take your mention of "millennium" as arguementative... What I meant to convey was that I see red flags when doctrinal things are built upon UnBiblical terms...

And the common Orthodox vision of the "1000 years" mentioned in Revelation, is observed strictly as a LINEAR (period of time) entity in their thought and perception... which distracts from the observation of it as a SYMBOLIC term...   :dontknow:

...willieH :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on May 21, 2009, 09:33:11 AM

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 03:45:33 AM

Quote from: Taffy on May 21, 2009, 03:33:57 AM

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 02:14:27 AM
Looking forward to it Willie;

BTW, I know millennium is not a biblical term, which is why I put it in quotations. What I meant was, the '1000 years' (which is as a day), whatever that actually represents. I was just kinda thinking out loud there. Not trying to argue, just trying to wrap my head around things from a different angle.

Hi Doc :icon_flower:

Isnt Christ THE DAY of salvation , twelve Hours in a Day , etc.a 1000yrs Likened to A DAY ..speaks of HIM...

To LIVE in the LIGHT of the DAY..TIS ALL THE SAME...always is... :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I can see that a 1000 years is likened to a day in scripture (and the other way around), so I can see how the 1000 years spoken of in Revelation could be referring to a 'day' or 'the day' of the Lord, yes.

right on!   :goodpost:  In all my blabbering I forgot to include this element, thanks Graham & Doc!

Btw, Doc... I didn't take your mention of "millennium" as arguementative... What I meant to convey was that I see red flags when doctrinal things are built upon UnBiblical terms...

And the common Orthodox vision of the "1000 years" mentioned in Revelation, is observed strictly as a LINEAR (period of time) entity in their thought and perception... which distracts from the observation of it as a SYMBOLIC term...   :dontknow:

...willieH :cloud9:

I wasn't sure you thought I was arguing, but I wanted to be sure you understood that I wasn't.  :thumbsup:
Anyway, lets go with the thought that the 1000 years are the day of the Lord. Who are those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, and who is it that doesn't live again until the 1000 years are ended. Are the rest of the dead physically dead or spiritually dead? And, is the first resurrection physical or spiritual or both?

Thanks!

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

****note... I got some things I must attend to, but I wished to get this answer to you, so if you see editing done, re-check it, as I always like to re-read what I have composed, before putting it on the board, and I may have a "tweaking" here or there that might be in order, or which was intended...  :cloud9:

In order to explain to you how I see this bro... I must refer you to my belief that I believe that we have ALWAYS BEEN... For YHVH never changes... which means that He never "becomes" something that He is NOT, for if He "BECAME" something, then He was NOT this "before" which would thereby denote CHANGE in Him... Also,  He IS (eternally remains) ...ALL in ALL... therefore, our ETERNAL existence preceeded this one... for we therefore, ALWAYS ARE part of HIM and He of us...

Though few have seen this, IMO this is clearly made evident in the following Scriptures...

Not only by the fact that YHVH never changes, but because of these verses:

Luke 15:11-32 The story (parable) of the LOST SON... notes that the LOST SON was WITH the Father to BEGIN with, ...THEN left and,  ...THEN came back... one cannot RETURN to a place one has not previously BEEN...  :dontknow:

Also, Job 38:7 notes that ALL the SONS of GOD shouted for Joy at the Creation... The word ALL means total, and the word SONS is the universal Hebrew word BEN which means SON or offspring... and is used throughout the OT in all references to  SONS and within GENEOLOGIES... and is always translated SON or SONS...

This verse states that ALL SONS were there... so they (we) were!

This is why it says (as you quote below) the rest of the DEAD lived not ...AGAIN... The word AGAIN implies that the DEAD were (spiritually) alive before they "became" DEAD... (for God is the FATHER of SPIRITS - Heb 12:9)

If you would keep those things in mind, here are my observations:

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
I wasn't sure you thought I was arguing, but I wanted to be sure you understood that I wasn't.  :thumbsup:

:2thumbs:

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 10:03:21 PMAnyway, lets go with the thought that the 1000 years are the day of the Lord. Who are those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years, and who is it that doesn't live again until the 1000 years are ended.

The notation --- "REST of the DEAD"... implies that the ones in the "first resurrection" -- and thereby "members of the "1000 year grouping", ...were once part of this "DEAD grouping"...  :dontknow:  For they are part of the Human race as a whole.

CHRIST noted LIVING human beings as DEAD to the Apostles, who were also part of this ["DEAD"] group before CHRIST was revealed to them.

ALL resurrection is found IN CHRIST... for "resurrection" itself essentially means that one is entered into DEATH (absence of LIFE)... and now RISEN from it...

The "1000 years" again, is not a "chronological" period of time... Those who are part of the "first resurrection", are those who dwell IN the "1000 years"... It is "resurrection" to those who are become aware of WHO is LIFE... John 14:6 -- the "chosen" who are become REVEALED of the LIGHT, ...while... amidst the darkness...

Quote from: Doc on May 21, 2009, 10:03:21 PMAre the rest of the dead physically dead or spiritually dead? And, is the first resurrection physical or spiritual or both?

The "REST of the DEAD" who "lived not again, remain DEAD until those "chosen" (1st to be "WORD" REVEALED) are completed (1000 years ended)... and are those who are yet to "live again" -- or "be REVEALED".

The "second resurrection" includes ALL those who have not yet received the REVELATION as to "WHO" is LIFE (this would include almost ALL of the JEWS -- the "Natural branches", as well as most of humanity)... and thereby have gone THROUGH THIS LIFE, without that Revelation...

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, is Him REVEALED in each of the Children of YHVH... (God has NO RESPECT of persons - partiality)

The "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" ...is the WORD of YHVH, emerging from within the human HEART which is His THRONE and DWELLING place...

Forum,
Alpha and Omega,

God is the same from the beginning to end.

A thousand years brings forth a different day but it may well only be seconds apart from the "day" that is a dispensation in time separating it from that "day" that was immediately preceding it.

I experienced that GWT scene exactly as it is written in the Bible when I did not know it was in the Bible when within a couple of seconds I went from this life as we know it to "another day", through flat lining and stood before the GWT to be judged. I see no reason not to believe that everyone else will not participate in the same scenario within seconds of their death even though the Bible speaks of 1000 years before their resurrection. (Those who are not amongst the dead in Christ that are alive in this life for their resurrection)

Moving on from what was experienced to speculation personally I do not believe you can have an LOF that is a body of drops made up drops of fire just as a real lake made up of drops of water without the "sons of God whom are those "drops of fire" that will make up the LOF of God.

Blessings

Doug

 :cloud9: Personally, I think all the confusion regarding the 1000 year thing is easily explained with the revelation that; THAT day, the 7th day, IS Christ, who IS SPIRIT, in which there is NO TIME (because time is the measurement of death), and there is NO DEATH, and therefore NO TIME, IN HIS SPIRIT, which IS LIFE. Blessings.....

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

Sorry it took so long but here is

PART TWO -- The BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET...

Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 09:34:50 PM
You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

I have already (IMO) jettisoned the idea that the "millennium" is a "period of time", now to --




The symbolic term, "BEAST" as it appears in Rev 20:10 I find is mentioned in Gen 3:1 -- the SERPENT that was more SUBTIL than any BEAST of the field...  What "beast" is the most SUBTLE in the forest? (field)

This subject immediately brings back the "disney film" BAMBI!  :laughing7:

MAN was in the forest!  The BEAST is MAN... the SERPENT is the transgression--oriented nature of the FLESH... which prompts man via TEMPTATION to SIN -- James 1:14

It is THIS nature, that EVE conversed with, and we ALL converse with!

MEN are noted as BEASTS in Scripture: 

Psalms 73:22 -- David admits himself (a BEAST) before GOD

Ecc 3:18 -- in Black & white -- MEN ...R... BEASTS!

Psalms 49:12 -- plain & simple, MEN are as BEASTS...

Psalms 49:20  Man is LIKE BEASTS...

The depiction of the BEAST in the Lake of FIRE and BRIMSTONE, is the NATURE of MAN... which is (even though the highest) just another BEAST...

Notice that "satan" was cast into the LOF, and is the ADVERSITY which is the NATURE of the FLESH... which DECIEVES us...

EVE was said to be in the "DECEPTION" -- not by some "omnipresent demon"... but her own LUST brought forth that DECEPTION...





The FALSE PROPHET was also in the LOF...  What do the Scriptures say of this entity?  Is this entity within THIS LIFE?  Oh YES! :yes:

Matt 24:7   MANY shall come IN MY NAME, saying that I am CHRIST [testifying of JESUS], and shall DECIEVE -- MANY!

A "FALSE PROPHET" teaches FALSE teachings... DECEPTION will ALWAYS use elements of TRUTH to persuade its victims...  Which is evident in this verse.  These COME (as MANY) -- in the NAME of CHRIST... yet they DECIEVE... MANY!

It is VERY significant that MANY are these... and MANY are their victims... Is this seen in Christianity?  well so sorry to say, ...Of course IT IS!  :dontknow:

This FALSE PROPHET has been around a LONG TIME:

Jer 14:14 -- Then YHVH said unto me, the PROPHETS prophesy LIES ...IN MY NAME... I sent them NOT... neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them,  they prophesy a FALSE VISION and DIVINATION and a thing of nought, and the DECEIT of their HEART...

This verse sounds very much like Matt 24:7, doesn't it?

If you will, ...Read -- Jer 13:16-27 -- the FALSE GOSPEL has been taught all along!  FEW have dedicated their hearts to the TRUTH... MOST wish to be part of the WHOLE... and being an OUTCAST doesn't "work" WELL for them...  :sigh:

Teaching UNCOMMANDED, ILLOGICAL and FEARFUL teachings -- such as HELL... and ETERNAL torment, or the threat of ETERNAL separation from GOD, not to mention resurrecting IDOLS such as the -- the Trinity, Free will, Fallen angels, and "satan" as a being who dominates ALL, everywhere at once! 

The FALSE PROPHET is ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY -- and She has been here in the Lake of FIRE & BRIMSTONE a LONG time... 

She was wearing in a "JEW suit" preaching (prophesying - Jer 14:14) IN THE NAME of YHVH, for a long while, and then a few thousand years ago, ...traded that wardrobe in for a "CHRISTIAN suit", and now preaches (prophesies -- Matt 24:7) IN THE NAME of CHRIST... working together with her INNER co-conspiritors "satan" and the "BEAST"...

Right here, in the ...LAKE OF FIRE and BRIMSTONE!

More later bro, gotta go nite-nite!  :laughhand:

Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.



Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 08:34:08 AM
I can sort of see this.  Satan is like our inner voice that convinces us its OK to eat the forbidden fruit.

If we seek harmony in the Scriptures, Eve's experience MUST be the same as James 1:14 notes it to be for EVERY man (woman)...

Hey All, this thread is very good! Above is some talk between Willie and Legoman and I just wanted to add my 2 cents.........

I totally agree with Willie that the spiritual is the only road to our Spiritual Father. I see Adam and Eve as representing spirit and soul. This makes so much sense to me and seems to fit in Scripture everywhere man and woman are talked about. Adam being our spirit while Eve is a persons soul. As long as the spirit is dominant then all goes well yet when our soul is dominant then 'all hell breaks loose'.

In the garden (our minds) Adam (our spiritual essence), Eve (our soulish essence) and satan (our adversarial or carnal nature) reside. Each person is a garden. Like in the garden, all seemed to be going well until Eve started to take over......conversing with the serpent, giving fruit to Adam.........

God, I love this Book, the Bible!

cp

I find it interesting that God basically brings in a serpent into His garden.

Willie, do you see all of life as kind of going on in God's mind? Is He kind of thinking out loud?

cp

willieH: Hi CP... :hithere:

Quote from: claypot on May 25, 2009, 02:42:46 AM
I find it interesting that God basically brings in a serpent into His garden.

Willie, do you see all of life as kind of going on in God's mind? Is He kind of thinking out loud?

cp

Now wouldn't that be interesting, if that is what all this is?  GOD "thinking out loud"?

I am not sure, but when it comes down to it... all that "actions" are, ...are nothing but THOUGHTS put into the EXTERNAL realm!  Even then, ALL THOUGHT is not manifest into "action"... sometimes, a "thought" just remains a thought. 

So in truth, ...there is much more going on in the "thought world" than in the "real world"!

ALL songs, inventions, business concepts, what's for dinner, WHATEVER... The whole doggone sh-bang is found born in "thought" first, ...then, sometimes an action follows!

So to discount EVE in the Garden, having a convo with herself, ...or GOD with Himself in the book of JOB, to me, dismisses one of the great and PRIMARY aspects of "LIVING" and "THINKING" beings!  :dontknow:

I admit and have admitted that I don't know everything, but one thing I do know... and that is that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD, including "thinking to Himself"!

peace CP...  :Peace:

Quote from: willieH on May 25, 2009, 04:24:06 AM

So to discount EVE in the Garden, having a convo with herself, ...or GOD with Himself in the book of JOB, to me, dismisses one of the great and PRIMARY aspects of "LIVING" and "THINKING" beings!  :dontknow:

Hey Willie, I am not understanding what you wrote here.

And I want to pursue your thoughts on the lake of fire. You did say you think the lake of fire is a present thing, didn't you? I have been pondering this all night between sleep.

Thanks for your patience in these things. I have read and re-read your words much in the past few days and they are doing a work on and in me. Thanks again.

cp

Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

Quote from: claypot on May 26, 2009, 02:13:57 PM
Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

Man is living their first death from the time of their birth......... we are born into the valley of death

Hi L,

I can understand how this 'life' is death but where does the second death come into play? Is it when we die to this 'death' (second death/lake of fire) that we go on to life?

cp

Quote from: claypot on May 26, 2009, 03:27:51 PM
Hi L,

I can understand how this 'life' is death but where does the second death come into play? Is it when we die to this 'death' (second death/lake of fire) that we go on to life?

cp

Really don't know

Some could well be living out (and/or find it) their second death in this life and for them it will not hurt them

IMO it is something all will find at some point and if not in this life as we know it to be then after it............. but as I said that is IMO as an educated guess but that is all.

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: willieH on May 24, 2009, 10:11:32 AM
willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

Sorry it took so long but here is

PART TWO -- The BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET...

Quote from: Doc on May 20, 2009, 09:34:50 PM
You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

I have already (IMO) jettisoned the idea that the "millennium" is a "period of time", now to --

THE BEAST:

The symbolic term, "BEAST" as it appears in Rev 20:10 I find is mentioned in Gen 3:1 -- the SERPENT that was more SUBTIL than any BEAST of the field...  What "beast" is the most SUBTLE in the forest? (field)

This subject immediately brings back the "disney film" BAMBI!  :laughing7:

MAN was in the forest!  The BEAST is MAN... the SERPENT is the transgression--oriented nature of the FLESH... which prompts man via TEMPTATION to SIN -- James 1:14

It is THIS nature, that EVE conversed with, and we ALL converse with!

MEN are noted as BEASTS in Scripture: 

Psalms 73:22 -- David admits himself (a BEAST) before GOD

Ecc 3:18 -- in Black & white -- MEN ...R... BEASTS!

Psalms 49:12 -- plain & simple, MEN are as BEASTS...

Psalms 49:20  Man is LIKE BEASTS...

The depiction of the BEAST in the Lake of FIRE and BRIMSTONE, is the NATURE of MAN... which is (even though the highest) just another BEAST...

Notice that "satan" was cast into the LOF, and is the ADVERSITY which is the NATURE of the FLESH... which DECIEVES us...

EVE was said to be in the "DECEPTION" -- not by some "omnipresent demon"... but her own LUST brought forth that DECEPTION...

THE FALSE PROPHET:

The FALSE PROPHET was also in the LOF...  What do the Scriptures say of this entity?  Is this entity within THIS LIFE?  Oh YES! :yes:

Matt 24:7   MANY shall come IN MY NAME, saying that I am CHRIST [testifying of JESUS], and shall DECIEVE -- MANY!

A "FALSE PROPHET" teaches FALSE teachings... DECEPTION will ALWAYS use elements of TRUTH to persuade its victims...  Which is evident in this verse.  These COME (as MANY) -- in the NAME of CHRIST... yet they DECIEVE... MANY!

It is VERY significant that MANY are these... and MANY are their victims... Is this seen in Christianity?  well so sorry to say, ...Of course IT IS!  :dontknow:

This FALSE PROPHET has been around a LONG TIME:

Jer 14:14 -- Then YHVH said unto me, the PROPHETS prophesy LIES ...IN MY NAME... I sent them NOT... neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them,  they prophesy a FALSE VISION and DIVINATION and a thing of nought, and the DECEIT of their HEART...

This verse sounds very much like Matt 24:7, doesn't it?

If you will, ...Read -- Jer 13:16-27 -- the FALSE GOSPEL has been taught all along!  FEW have dedicated their hearts to the TRUTH... MOST wish to be part of the WHOLE... and being an OUTCAST doesn't "work" WELL for them...  :sigh:

Teaching UNCOMMANDED, ILLOGICAL and FEARFUL teachings -- such as HELL... and ETERNAL torment, or the threat of ETERNAL separation from GOD, not to mention resurrecting IDOLS such as the -- the Trinity, Free will, Fallen angels, and "satan" as a being who dominates ALL, everywhere at once! 

The FALSE PROPHET is ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY -- and She has been here in the Lake of FIRE & BRIMSTONE a LONG time... 

She was wearing in a "JEW suit" preaching (prophesying - Jer 14:14) IN THE NAME of YHVH, for a long while, and then a few thousand years ago, ...traded that wardrobe in for a "CHRISTIAN suit", and now preaches (prophesies -- Matt 24:7) IN THE NAME of CHRIST... working together with her INNER co-conspiritors "satan" and the "BEAST"...

Right here, in the ...LAKE OF FIRE and BRIMSTONE!

More later bro, gotta go nite-nite!  :laughhand:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Interesting stuff in both posts, Willie. I was aware of that Job passage possibly alluding to "pre-existence", but I had never thought of the parable of the prodigal son in that way; but it makes sense! I also think it's interesting in Revelation that when the Adversary is cast into the LOF (cast from heaven), the wording makes it clear that the beast and false prophet are already there, which I think lends even more credence to this view that we are already in the LOF. I think I'm going to have to have a re-reading of Revelation with these thoughts in mind, and see what gets revealed...

It messes with my mind though to think that we've either already had our GWT judgment, or that it will follow the LOF in some sense. Or, have we just assumed that the GWT must occur before the LOF or, is it kind of separate? We know that it is for the purposes of receiving back for what was done in the body, so it can't be pre-mortal existence then...

I think it is good to acknowledge the existence of the devil. It's no good ignoring that facet of reality, because it simply does concern us.

The tricky thing about the devil is how he tries to get us away from God through tempting us into sinning. The problem for us humans is, we see ourselves as victims of the devil, and expect help and pardon for sins, but God seems to see the resultant sin as real. Of course He will punish the devil some day, but He also will punish us if we yield to the devil's temptations. That is, if we do not have Christ who paid the price for all sin.

The way to go is to resist the devil by keeping the teachings of God. Don't look to the left or to the right, stay on the good, and narrow, path. This can be very hard at times, but it's delusional. Apostle John writes that keeping God's commandments isn't grievous. This means, if your heart is at the right place, following God actually is easier than rebellion and sin. But it's a human thing to sin, the susceptibility to that is just in our nature.

Apply some wisdom. Solomon writes that God created the world through wisdom, this means that the world and the life on it is such that if you apply wisdom you can go through life awarely and you can avoid many troubles and do not get harmed.

With the same wisdom, we must yield to God in Jesus Christ where we find a salvation that is utterly tailored to our being and where we find safety from the devil's schemes. This does not mean we never get attacked, but we acquire faith that will douse all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.

willieH: Hi CP... :hithere:

sorry for not getting to this sooner...

Quote from: claypot on May 25, 2009, 04:12:31 PM

Quote from: willieH on May 25, 2009, 04:24:06 AM

So to discount EVE in the Garden, having a convo with herself, ...or GOD with Himself in the book of JOB, to me, dismisses one of the great and PRIMARY aspects of "LIVING" and "THINKING" beings!  :dontknow:

Hey Willie, I am not understanding what you wrote here.

Okay bro... We are made in the Image of GOD... which means that how we go about things as intelligent beings (outside of acting upon sin), is reflective of Him...

The "conversation" with "satan" in Job 1 is that which I was referring to...  :mblush:

As well as the "serpent" tempting Eve in the Garden... James 1:14 states that ALL MEN are tempted in the SAME manner... via the lust (desire) which emerges from the FLESH... Paul reiterated this procedure in Rom 8:29

Do you ever "think or converse with yourself" -- either silently or audibly?  Such as, you are standing in line at Taco Bell... and you are looking at the menu (shame on you for eating that stuff! -- okay, I do too sometimes!  :laughing7:)... anyhoo... as you ask yourself "what should I have?" -- who are you [silently] "talking" to?  :dontknow:

To think that we can and do, have inner conversation... only is indicative (IMO) that God does this as well...  No one ever takes this into consideration as they observe the Scriptures... I believe it is a revelation... and indeed, takes place in several places within the WORD of God...

Although there is MORE than sufficient proof that YHVH alone, is God, ...personally, I believe this explains the "Trinitarian" quotes Gen 1:26 & Gen 3:22 as a "proof" there is multiple persons in the "Godhead"... that GOD is thinking to Himself... rather than reporting that there are multiple "personages" in Him...

QuoteAnd I want to pursue your thoughts on the lake of fire. You did say you think the lake of fire is a present thing, didn't you? I have been pondering this all night between sleep.

Yes I did say this, and I would be happy to answer any questions you might have about my view of this...  :winkgrin:

QuoteThanks for your patience in these things. I have read and re-read your words much in the past few days and they are doing a work on and in me. Thanks again.

cp

You are more than welcome CP... Again, if I can help in any way to clarify portions that might not be clear, please let me know... It is sometimes hard to put into words what one sees...

willieH: Hi "AN"...  :cloud9:

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 01, 2009, 04:28:18 PMI think it is good to acknowledge the existence of the devil. It's no good ignoring that facet of reality, because it simply does concern us.

I disagree... on the contrary... it is NOT a facet of "reality"...

I think it is deception to agree with deception... To give the "devil" an OMNIPRESENT position is to equate "him" ("It", as I believe)... to a position only GOD occupies...

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 01, 2009, 04:28:18 PMThe tricky thing about the devil is how he tries to get us away from God through tempting us into sinning.

Again I disagree... temptation is not generated by any "devil"... it occurs in the SAME MANNER for EVERY MAN according to the Bible... James 1:14 -- not by a mythical and religiously invented personage that RELIGION has entitled "satan"... 

The invention of this (false) "personage" is the basis for MUCH distraction, even in NON-Christian scenarios... Movies, TV programs, books, magazines and newspaper articles have taken the "lead" of Christianity and its "FEARS" and BUILT this deception into the world's LARGEST...  :sigh:

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 01, 2009, 04:28:18 PMThe problem for us humans is, we see ourselves as victims of the devil, and expect help and pardon for sins, but God seems to see the resultant sin as real. Of course He will punish the devil some day, but He also will punish us if we yield to the devil's temptations. That is, if we do not have Christ who paid the price for all sin.

Sorry to be so disagreeable "AN", but here is more... GOD does not PUNISH "satan"... Where do you get this idea?  Neither shall He "punish" us... that is NOT the GOSPEL, ...AN!  The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS, and is INTENDED for EVERY CREATURE -- Mark 16:15...

GOD is amidst a purification process with us here, which includes SUFFERING...

But in the life in resurrection, there is no condemnation... nor is there torment... accountability of self... but,

Only the false teachings of Othrodox Christianity that preaches FEAR instead of the GOSPEL of PEACE... holds you in the GRIP of FEAR... Unperfected in the LOVE of GOD which is so stated in the WORD to CAST OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- NOT promote it in the message of the GOSPEL!  :mshock:

You are welcome to listen to their lies... as for me... I live for His LOVE, and FEAR not the one who LOVES me MOST....

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 01, 2009, 04:28:18 PMThe way to go is to resist the devil by keeping the teachings of God. Don't look to the left or to the right, stay on the good, and narrow, path. This can be very hard at times, but it's delusional. Apostle John writes that keeping God's commandments isn't grievous. This means, if your heart is at the right place, following God actually is easier than rebellion and sin. But it's a human thing to sin, the susceptibility to that is just in our nature.

Actually the WAY is CHRIST... and submission to HIM... if this is done, then our pathways are marked with HIS PRESENCE...

Even Paul, one of the greatest and most wonderful teachers of the GOSPEL... found that the WAR with SIN continued in his experience... Rom 7:21-25

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 01, 2009, 04:28:18 PMApply some wisdom. Solomon writes that God created the world through wisdom, this means that the world and the life on it is such that if you apply wisdom you can go through life awarely and you can avoid many troubles and do not get harmed.

Your life is FOREKNOWN by the PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD... you will walk in the steps that HE has purposed you shall walk -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:19-21

It is HE which is shaping you... be that shaping postive or negative, both are required to exist within HIS PURPOSE to teach ALL the CHILDREN, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...  :grouppray:

You will not avoid that which is ordained.   It is good to pray to avoid sin, for if you do, you are praying according to His ordaination of that prayer... and you are seen CALLED in this way...  But because you do not... also means that you have NOT been CALLED to do so...

This is not about US... it is about HIM... if we shall find WISDOM, we shall come to KNOW that ALL is within HIS CREATION for PURPOSE, and HIS agenda... not focusing upon OURSELVES... rather, LOSING ourselves, ...in HIM...

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 01, 2009, 04:28:18 PMWith the same wisdom, we must yield to God in Jesus Christ where we find a salvation that is utterly tailored to our being and where we find safety from the devil's schemes. This does not mean we never get attacked, but we acquire faith that will douse all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.

There is no "scheme" planned by any "devil"... the IMAGINATIONS of the HEARTS of men which are NOT submitted to CHRIST that "scheme" -- 2 Cor 10:5 --  And are DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9 -- therein are "schemes" found, not by a false personage upon which we might cast our own blame... as did Adam and Eve... rather, coming to KNOW that GOD is IN CONTROL and wherever we err, or wherever we succeed, it profits ALL within HIS PURPOSE...

That is not to say -- go out and DO what YOU PLEASE... for if what "YOU PLEASE" is other than what GOD commands... then you were not called in the first place...

For the CALLING and CHOOSING of GOD is firm and intentioned, and ORDAINED -- Eph 2:10 -- it is NOT by CHANCE that you shall walk in obedience... nor is it by CHANCE that you shall walk in disobedience... we are ALL part of HIS PROCESS and PURPOSE... for ALL THINGS are worked BY HIM and ACCORDING TO, ...His WILL -- Eph 1:11

The Firey arrows of the wicked one, are those imaginations and devisings of the carnal and unregenerate heart... not some imagined and NEVER SEEN -- "red guy with a pitchfork"... :mnah:

Hi Willie

We know that God created all things including evil so not to get into a chicken or egg conversation would you please comment on where do you think that the serpent seed came from and is it any less real than the seed that is Christ?

Blessings

Doug

Willie, your posts are of the highest quality; distinguished, and set apart.
Also, enjoyed the Scriptures posted by Laren, in reply #25, thanks for those, too!

peacemaker

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on May 17, 2009, 09:50:58 AM
I was watching a debate that was on tv not that long ago debating the existence of Satan...with carlton pearson (guy ive been listening to alot of sermons of lightly) was on the "non existent" side of satan.

So does he exist? surely he is talked about in the Bible...but in what way does he exist...what IS he really? is he a red guy with pointy horns and a pitchfork, is he a blue eyed bald woman in a black robe(passion of christ lol) or is he more figurative than that? a projection of our own sinful nature perhaps? Ive read some things that have debunked the "falling angel" story about him...so its called in the question what he really is.


thoughts?

My belief is that Satan is a reference to the disobedient nature of man.

Paul

I never quite understood the story about when Jesus drove the demons into the swine. And then the swine drowned themselves.
What are demons?

In the parable of the sower there is the housekeeper that sows. Plus the enemy that sows.
If the enemy isn't satan who/what is it?
Some/many on this forum say satan is our sinful mind.
Possible. But then I have a problem with LoF.
Satan is kicked into LoF. If satan is our sinful mind why are the sinners also cast into LoF?
A sinner with the sinful/satan part removed is no longer a sinner.

I think Christians can be somewhat ignorant about the power available to people through the black arts.

That power is real.  It is coming from another source.  It is evil.

We can see that many who use this power represent themselves as good, as opposed to evil. 

But, they are still operating out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It's the wrong tree.

No one is good but God, and man cannot make himself righteous.

We see a long history of the Jews dabbling in these black arts--starting with the worship of the golden calf.

King Solomon was seduced into this by his foreign concubines and wives.

This made God very angry and He calls the worship of these strange gods an abomination.  He removed himself from the presence of those practicing these black arts.



1 Kings 11:7
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.


2 Kings 23:13
And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.



21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

22Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

23Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

24But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

25Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?

26But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

27Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

--Amos 5

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 07:39:45 PM
In the parable of the sower there is the housekeeper that sows. Plus the enemy that sows.
If the enemy isn't satan who/what is it?
Some/many on this forum say satan is our sinful mind.
Possible. But then I have a problem with LoF.
Satan is kicked into LoF. If satan is our sinful mind why are the sinners also cast into LoF?
A sinner with the sinful/satan part removed is no longer a sinner.

I think Willie's view perhaps has an answer for this? If this life is the lake of fire as he suggests, and if satan has already been cast out of heaven and to earth, then satan is already being tormented (tried, tested) in the LoF on this view. In light of this approach, I find the language in Revelation interesting; When satan is cast into the LOF, the beast (carnal nature?) and false prophet are already there. Which would fit quite neatly with the view of this current existence as the LoF.
Around the time of his crucifixion, Christ said that he beheld satan as lightning falling from heaven, and that now was the judgment of this world, and now is the ruler of this world cast out. Could it be that satan was cast down into the torment of the LoF when he lost his authority over death with the crucifixion? Where the beast and the false prophet (already) are?

Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.
That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2009, 09:28:32 PM

That power is real.  It is coming from another source.  It is evil.

If anyone believes in telekinesis  raise MY hand.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PM
Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.
That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

It's true that only "sinners" are cast into the LoF (are we not all sinners, being saved by grace? Were we not all at one point fearful and unbelieving?), but LoF coming "after" judgment is only necessarily true if we can be certain that Revelation is linear and literal. If it's not, then it wouldn't be necessary to assume that we had a previous and bad life. Also, not all judgment comes after life. (If you're thinking of Hebrews, I think the context there suggests that the statement in question is in connection with a comparison of priestly systems). We know that at least for the believer, judgment actually (at least) begins taking place in this life.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

Aren't we purified and ready for heaven when we exit LoF?
If LoF is now we exit it at death.
Looking at Hitler and Stalin I don't really have the impression they died purified with a "love your neighbor" mindset....

willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Sorry for taking so long to get this reply to you...  :blush:

Quote from: claypot on May 26, 2009, 02:13:57 PM
Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

It is my opinion that Rev 21:14 is pretty much, universally misunderstood, and then those teach others their misunderstanding... and "voila", here we sit today...  with the LITERAL and carnal understanding of a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL notation...  :wacko2: :prankster:

Well God has taught me otherwise:

Here is how I see it...

Already leaning toward THIS LIFE as the Lake of FIRE, ...I once read J. Preston Eby's view of this verse, and his words coincided with the way I have come to observe Rev 21:14 -- (btw, to my knowledge, Eby doesn't profess that THIS LIFE is the LOF)

Rev 21:14 -- And death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd DEATH...

Most observe (because they have been falsely taught) that this "casting" takes place at the END of human history... as I see it, ...it takes place at it's BEGINNING...  :mshock:

The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, is NOT subject to Chronology... JESUS is noted to be the ALPHA and the OMEGA... in other words the END ...IS... the BEGINNING...

JESUS ...IS... simulataneously the END and the BEGINNING...

Eby noted the following example, about how the facts of a sentence can be rearranged in chronology, and NOT change the meaning:

(1)  An ISLAND is a body of LAND, surrounded by WATER...
(2)  A body of LAND surrounded by WATER, is an ISLAND...

Let us do this with Rev 21:14:

(1)  Rev 21:14  and Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd Death...

REVERSING the FACTS:

(2)  Rev 21:14  This is the 2nd Death -- Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE...

I have NOT removed or added anything... but the reversal of the facts gives affords a different perspective... If you "re-reverse" them, you will continue to have that NEW perspective of this verse...

The 2nd DEATH is the death of SINFUL Flesh (vessel of DISHONOR), which is brought into being by the state of man which is "DEAD" in the SPIRIT, and accordingly DISOBEYS the COMMAND of GOD which brings forth SIN and produces the 2nd Death...

JESUS noted LIVING and breathing men, as DEAD -- Matt 8:22 -- these were men which were NOT FOLLOWING Him... for He had just instructed the "scribe" to follow Him... leaving those who were "dead" to bury their "dead"...

That's interesting, WillieH--

Are you saying Adam and Eve were cast into the LOF when they were thrown out of the garden of God?

willieH: Hi brother WW...  :grin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PM
Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.

IMO you are using "time" and "chronological" notations in application to the REVELATION of a TIME-LESS entity, WW...  "after this", after that"...

JESUS said -- John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...

Shall we BELIEVE what HE SAYS?  Don't know about you, but I ...DO...

NOW is uhh, ...NOW...

NOW is the Day of Salvation, ...NOW is the accepted TIME... 2 Cor 6:2

When is "NOW" as you see it, bro?  :dunno:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PMThat would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

:thinking:  Not sure how you come to this conclusion... we ALL SIN in THIS LIFE... no previous life necessary...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 10:52:12 PM
willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Sorry for taking so long to get this reply to you...  :blush:

Quote from: claypot on May 26, 2009, 02:13:57 PM
Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

It is my opinion that Rev 21:14 is pretty much, universally misunderstood, and then those teach others their misunderstanding... and "voila", here we sit today...  with the LITERAL and carnal understanding of a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL notation...  :wacko2: :prankster:

Well God has taught me otherwise:

Here is how I see it...

Already leaning toward THIS LIFE as the Lake of FIRE, ...I once read J. Preston Eby's view of this verse, and his words coincided with the way I have come to observe Rev 21:14 -- (btw, to my knowledge, Eby doesn't profess that THIS LIFE is the LOF)

Rev 21:14 -- And death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd DEATH...

Most observe (because they have been falsely taught) that this "casting" takes place at the END of human history... as I see it, ...it takes place at it's BEGINNING...  :mshock:

The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, is NOT subject to Chronology... JESUS is noted to be the ALPHA and the OMEGA... in other words the END ...IS... the BEGINNING...

JESUS ...IS... simulataneously the END and the BEGINNING...

Eby noted the following example, about how the facts of a sentence can be rearranged in chronology, and NOT change the meaning:

(1)  An ISLAND is a body of LAND, surrounded by WATER...
(2)  A body of LAND surrounded by WATER, is an ISLAND...

Let us do this with Rev 21:14:

(1)  Rev 21:14  and Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd Death...

REVERSING the FACTS:

(2)  Rev 21:14  This is the 2nd Death -- Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE...

I have NOT removed or added anything... but the reversal of the facts gives affords a different perspective... If you "re-reverse" them, you will continue to have that NEW perspective of this verse...

The 2nd DEATH is the death of SINFUL Flesh (vessel of DISHONOR), which is brought into being by the state of man which is "DEAD" in the SPIRIT, and accordingly DISOBEYS the COMMAND of GOD which brings forth SIN and produces the 2nd Death...

JESUS noted LIVING and breathing men, as DEAD -- Matt 8:22 -- these were men which were NOT FOLLOWING Him... for He had just instructed the "scribe" to follow Him... leaving those who were "dead" to bury their "dead"...

...willieH  :happygrin:

So I have a question for you about this. If the second death (LOF) is death and hades being thrown into the LOF, then why are those part of the 1st resurrection not hurt of it?

Would anyone be hurt of death and hades being thrown into the LOF, regardless of the resurrection they were part of?

I am following your thinking here, but it seems to me to make the statement about not being hurt of the second death for those in the first resurrection redundant. Have I missed something?

If we are in the LOF now with death and hell and the beast and the false prophet and that old dragon, satan, it would explain a lot. :laughing7:

My question is what did Jesus mean when he told the Pharisees they would die in their sins?  Whatever it meant, it didn't sound very good.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Also, what would this mean?

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

--Rev 21

Quote from: Doc on June 16, 2009, 09:58:11 PM

I think Willie's view perhaps has an answer for this? If this life is the lake of fire as he suggests, and if satan has already been cast out of heaven and to earth, then satan is already being tormented (tried, tested) in the LoF on this view. In light of this approach, I find the language in Revelation interesting; When satan is cast into the LOF, the beast (carnal nature?) and false prophet are already there. Which would fit quite neatly with the view of this current existence as the LoF.
Around the time of his crucifixion, Christ said that he beheld satan as lightning falling from heaven, and that now was the judgment of this world, and now is the ruler of this world cast out. Could it be that satan was cast down into the torment of the LoF when he lost his authority over death with the crucifixion? Where the beast and the false prophet (already) are?

"...and he that doesn't believe is condemned already..." ?

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--John 3

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 11:17:22 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PM
Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.

IMO you are using "time" and "chronological" notations in application to the REVELATION of a TIME-LESS entity, WW...  "after this", after that"...:

Because that is exactly what I read in Revelation.
People are resurrected. After a while the others are resurrected.
Beast and false prophet are already in LoF. Satan not yet.
Then Satan is bound. Later he's released again. Then again later he's finally destroyed.
All the prophesies of the birth or Jesus are set on a timeline.
That's why I always use time references.

QuoteJESUS said -- John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...
Shall we BELIEVE what HE SAYS?  Don't know about you, but I ...DO...

Ignoring the fact that NOW is also a time reference it can also be read that our time on earth is the White Throne Judgement and LoF comes after that.
If someone reads a verse diffrently than you do doesn't automaticly mean they reject that verse....

QuoteNOW is uhh, ...NOW...
NOW is the Day of Salvation, ...NOW is the accepted TIME... 2 Cor 6:2
When is "NOW" as you see it, bro?  :dunno:

Now is a point in time.
Without Jesus no salvation. When Jesus 'was now' salvation became a fact. But that doesn't automaticly mean LoF has started. The fact is we will be saved. If that saving takes place the next second or in 1 billion years is another thing.

Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PMThat would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

:thinking:  Not sure how you come to this conclusion... we ALL SIN in THIS LIFE... no previous life necessary...  :dontknow:

[/quote]
I never said we don't sin in this life. In fact I wrote in thi s thread:

QuoteLooking at Hitler and Stalin I don't really have the impression they died purified with a "love your neighbor" mindset....

Isn't LoF about purifying people? Making the 'clean enough' to enter heaven.
No dogs, liers, adulters, thiefs, murders, etc, etc
If this life is LoF, does it mean our death is our exit point of LoF?
If yes do we all die as saints?
No one that dies is a thief? A murder? Some even die during performing the act of adultary.

willieH: Hi Molly...  :friendstu:

Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2009, 11:11:43 PM
That's interesting, WillieH--

Are you saying Adam and Eve were cast into the LOF when they were thrown out of the garden of God?

Most view the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, as the Last book of the Bible, and a prophecy of the END of TIME, and of this world...

When, from its beginning... it states that this entity is the BEGINNING -- and -- the END...  and that it REVEALS JESUS who is BOTH...  The "end" IS the "beginning" and the "beginning" IS the "end"... of what?

JESUS -- when HE is REVEALED, ...is the "END" of SIN... He is also the "BEGINNING" of RIGHTEOUSNESS for those who became IMMERSED in it... all due to their involvement in TIME and EVIL...

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is NOT a book of PROPHECY... it is the UNVEILING of the "beginningless, and "endless" WORD of GOD...

First -- I don't see that GOD "threw" them out of the Garden... they were SENT forth FROM it...

Second -- I guess it depends on what one considers "the GARDEN"...  :laughing7:

The LAKE of FIRE is part of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... and no matter how or when He is REVEALED to anyone, the LAKE of FIRE is part of that REVELATION.  :dontknow:

I believe that "satan" (adversity) was PART of the makeup of Adam & Eve... and it is that ADVERSITY ...IN THEM... which enabled them to DISOBEY the COMMAND of GOD... This DISOBEDIENCE took place IN the GARDEN...

PART of the GARDEN is the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... it shall ALWAYS be part of the GARDEN...

The Creation account (which is quite helpful in understanding "Revelation"), notes that it (the Creation) was VERY GOOD, but NOT PERFECT... Why not?

For the ALPHA of man is not PERFECT [which means COMPLETE] until the OMEGA of man is found present!  Once ALL MEN have come forth... then shall the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, which IS the Alpha of them and the Omega of them, ...BE...

GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE.

The Lake of FIRE is JESUS CHRIST... ALL THINGS are IN HIM... all things are made BY HIM... and FOR HIM -- Col 1:16-17  "ALL things" includes the LOF...

He is YET "making" ALL THINGS... Has everything been "made" that are considered part of creation?  NO.   Everyday MEN (more of the COMPLETE TOTAL of MANKIND) are born... Everyday the Creation brings forth NEW LIFE in ALL SPECIES...

What is the GARDEN?  This is a grand question, probably worthy of a NEW THREAD...  :HeartThrob:

I believe the GARDEN to be the  :HeartThrob: ...HEART of GOD, where GOD and His Children, DWELL together... It is not geographical... it is SPIRITUAL... It is not physical, as the physical is limited, it is a "place" where LOVE IS -- lives and emerges.  Where the mutual, the harmonious, the prosperous, and ONENESS bring into its occupants, ..."ALL" which is FOREVER...

It is not measured by weight, or height or depth or breadth, for it exceeds KNOWLEDGE...

There are 2 trees in the MIDST of the Garden... one (tree of the knowledge of G & E) contains KNOWLEDGE the other (tree of LIFE) is more than KNOWLEDGE, passing it, exceedingly exceeding it -- Eph 3:18-19  BOTH are found in the MIDST of the HEART of YHVH

LOVE is the Garden... and the flowers which grow IN IT... never perish... for they dwell in PERFECTION, without ADVERSITY...  we, are those flowers sister M... which are SENT FORTH, temporarily in this measured, limited space called TIME... to gain the COMPLETE Revelation of JESUS CHRIST which contains the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, but ...EXCEEDS it... and which is about doing the things of LOVE, and which does NOT...

DO the things of KNOWLEDGE -- :clock: -- TIME -- :eek:

but DOES DO, the things of LOVE -- :HeartThrob: -- FOREVER --  :myahoo:

...willieH

"GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE."

Hi WillieH, I found your above quote fascinating. ( I don't know how to use the quote feature)
Could you elaborate on that.
There is a finite number of humans to be born?
And when that final one is born, something will happen?
Asking, in part, because I saw a movie with that plot a long time ago with Demi Moore.

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 11:17:22 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PM
Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.

IMO you are using "time" and "chronological" notations in application to the REVELATION of a TIME-LESS entity, WW...  "after this", after that"...:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMBecause that is exactly what I read in Revelation.
People are resurrected. After a while the others are resurrected.
Beast and false prophet are already in LoF. Satan not yet.
Then Satan is bound. Later he's released again. Then again later he's finally destroyed.

It is okay to read what "you read" in this book WW... I do not demean you for your "understanding"... and as is the case in a journey... different things are gained along the way.  That is what DISCUSSION is all about... Each of us sharing with the others, that which we have "gained"...

You are welcome to disagree with my findings, and it is not my agenda to change you with them... If change occurs in your view... it shall be GOD which makes and ordains that change, and if no change occurs, it is also GOD which keeps you right where you are...  :cloud9:

Your view is orthodox... and really does not follow reason... Why would GOD "chain" up "satan" only to let "him" loose to continue decieving?

Your view is the Orthodox and THEOLOGICAL vision of the "Millennium" (which is a non-biblical term), a "theologically" gathered assumption...  And which traverses LOGIC in its presentation...  I shall not engage that arguement here, I have already commented upon it in the "1000 years" thread, and find no need to repeat myself here... If you wish to know my views on it look in the other thread...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMAll the prophesies of the birth or Jesus are set on a timeline.
That's why I always use time references.

What is Prophecy WW?  Is not "prophecy" the REVELATION of what is to BE... and if so, then ALREADY IS?  For "prophecy" is nothing but the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, revealed to men, and which COMES TO PASS in the doings of men, without regard to them or their desires to "do" otherwise...

The "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" is a book which proposes to REVEAL an entity which is NOT BOUND by TIME, so how can TIME be applied to HIM?  He pre-existed TIME and was relevent WITHOUT it... why is TIME therefore needful or relevant in His REVEALING?  It is NOT... unless YOU decide to attach it to Him... In that case He is not being REVEALED... YOU are proposing Him using "TIME" to do so...

EXAMPLE:  If visible things are revealed by SIGHT, shall we use EARS to discover those things?  Will our EARS establish their "visibility"?  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHJESUS said -- John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...
Shall we BELIEVE what HE SAYS?  Don't know about you, but I ...DO...

QuoteIgnoring the fact that NOW is also a time reference it can also be read that our time on earth is the White Throne Judgement and LoF comes after that.

I beg to differ that NOW is a time reference... if so "WHEN" is NOW?

As far as "chronology" (LOF comes "after")... you are welcome to your belief, but I see it as astray for "chronology" is NOT something that can be attached to CHRIST...

He is the SAME, yesterday today, and forever... which means that "chronologically" speaking... there is no "chronology" in Him -- Heb 13:8

CHRONOLOGY represents CHANGE... yesterday was NOT today... tomorrow is NOT yesterday, all are CHRONOLOGICAL notations of the movement and CHANGE which is found IN TIME...

The FIRST (is chronological term) is NOT the LAST (which is also a chronological term), neither is FIRST the SAME as the LAST...  They are "chonologically" speaking in OPPOSITION to each other!  They do NOT stand in the SAME PLACE, they do NOT occur in the SAME PROGRESSION, etc.

So how can you employ CHRONOLOGY to the REVELATION a being which is BOTH and yet has NEITHER beginning OR end?

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMIf someone reads a verse diffrently than you do doesn't automaticly mean they reject that verse....

Did I say you reject any verses?  I did NOT.

QuoteNOW is uhh, ...NOW...
NOW is the Day of Salvation, ...NOW is the accepted TIME... 2 Cor 6:2
When is "NOW" as you see it, bro?  :dunno:

QuoteNow is a point in time.

Oh yeah?  When was NOW?  What point?  Is not "NOW" -- ALL POINTS in time?  If so, then TIME is limited by NOW, rather than the opposite...

NOW is the representation and REALITY of the ETERNAL, occuring within the realm of the FINITE -- which is TIME.

WHEN did NOW begin WW?  Or WHEN shall it END?

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMWithout Jesus no salvation. When Jesus 'was now' salvation became a fact. But that doesn't automaticly mean LoF has started. The fact is we will be saved. If that saving takes place the next second or in 1 billion years is another thing.

You continue to endeavor to "TIE" CHRIST to TIME... and that does not work for He is -- OUTSIDE (before) and INSIDE (during) time and then again OUTSIDE it (exceeding it past the LAST DAY)...

His DEATH occured manifest IN TIME... however He was SLAIN before TIME began -- Rev 13:8

That He was eventually was manifest in TIME, was temporal... that He IS before, during and after it, is ETERNAL...  Time is IRRELEVANT to what and who He IS...

Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2009, 10:13:07 PMThat would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

Quote from: willieH:thinking:  Not sure how you come to this conclusion... we ALL SIN in THIS LIFE... no previous life necessary...  :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMI never said we don't sin in this life. In fact I wrote in this thread:

QuoteLooking at Hitler and Stalin I don't really have the impression they died purified with a "love your neighbor" mindset....

Isn't LoF about purifying people? Making the 'clean enough' to enter heaven.
No dogs, liers, adulters, thiefs, murders, etc, etc
If this life is LoF, does it mean our death is our exit point of LoF?

I was pointing out dear brother, that SINNERS are the residents of the LOF... and that ALL have SINNED...

The LAKE of FIRE is part of the REVEALING of LOVE which is JESUS CHRIST... not a chamber of HORROR and TORMENT...

There is NO TORMENT in LOVE, nor is there FEAR, for LOVE casts OUT torment -- 1 John 4:18

As I said before, you are welcome to take upon yourself FEAR as you search for GOD, that is your decision...

Just know that I consider that it is my mission to OPPOSE and DEFEAT such teaching... without demeaning you for your own conclusions...

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMIf yes do we all die as saints?

We are finished with SIN upon our exit... We ALL give account before GOD... When we rise, it is either IN the clothing of CHRIST or IN the nakedness SHAME -- Rev 3:18

The tears dried later, are those of the naked... but note they are DRIED, never to appear again -- Rev 21:4

Those rising in the Glory of CHRIST, shall not be CRYING bro... but those who are HURT (by the shame of nakedness), shall find remorse... and tears.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2009, 12:20:34 AMNo one that dies is a thief? A murder? Some even die during performing the act of adultary

So what is your point?  That men battle SIN until their last breath surprises you?

When CHRIST instructed others to FORGIVE enemies, and LOVE them, and BLESS them... do you percieve Him to "BLAST FURNACE" His?  :mshock:

What kind of GRAND HYPOCRISY would that display?  Learn, bro... that GOD loves us, and that we are HARDENED or FIND MERCY at HIS call, not ours... John 6:44 -- Rom 9:18 -- Jer 18:4

If you have found His call to you to follow, then it is HIS CALL is it not?  And if others do not HEAR His Call, does that display to you that He provided EARS for them to hear?

This WHOLE THING is HIS THING brother WW... you and I are just very fortunate to have been blessed with LIFE at HIS CHOOSING... And were born when, where, to whom, etc... by HIS CALL, not ours...

If HITLER would've been Billy Graham's son, would he have been the tyrant he became?  It was GOD's call that HITLER be HITLER, and that Franklin Graham be Franklin Graham...

:Peace:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 12:56:07 AM
"GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE."

Hi WillieH, I found your above quote fascinating. ( I don't know how to use the quote feature)
Could you elaborate on that.
There is a finite number of humans to be born?
And when that final one is born, something will happen?
Asking, in part, because I saw a movie with that plot a long time ago with Demi Moore.

That movie you saw BServ was The Seventh Sign. I liked it much. Weird but I liked it.

cp

Thanks Cp,
Glad someone else saw it too.
When I saw that on WillieH's post, I was like, huh?what?
I saw that movie!
I know that Hollywood, all the time, uses scripture or parts of it to make money.
I did not know, though, that it was in the Bible.

willieH: Hi Beloved... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH"GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE."

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 12:56:07 AMHi WillieH, I found your above quote fascinating. ( I don't know how to use the quote feature)
Could you elaborate on that.
There is a finite number of humans to be born?

LOGIC dictates that as long as MEN (mankind) are born, then the TOTAL of MANKIND is yet INCOMPLETE.

There are PERFECT numbers in Scripture such as 3, 7 & 12 -- I'm sure the COMPLETE number of MAN is a PERFECT number... do not have a clue as to what it might be other than INNUMERABLE... Heb 11:12 -- compared to the number of STARS in the SKY... which compose a number which only GOD can understand...

This WILL end somewhere, He WILL appear again, ...for the LAST TRUMP shall sound...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 12:56:07 AMAnd when that final one is born, something will happen?
Asking, in part, because I saw a movie with that plot a long time ago with Demi Moore.

Don't know everything, especially ...when or how... GOD knows...

GOD began CREATION and because He is PERFECT, MAN, made in His IMAGE, when it is COMPLETE shall bear the mark of His COMPLETE PERFECTION...

He WILL make an end to SIN.. and there WILL BE a LAST DAY --  John 6:44, 54 -- 12:48

What movie? :dunno:

Thanks WillieH,
Claypot remembered, it's called the "Seventh Sign."
Thanks also for the instructions.

So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 02:34:57 AM
So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

Thanks WillieH!

Thanks for you answer Willie.
I was typing my answer but deleted it because as usual we make zero progress when 'chatting' on this forum.
So this is the end for me. Oops another time reference... :winkgrin:

Hey, Willie; I just wanted to make sure that you saw my question in post #80. I think it got lost in the flurry of other posts.

Quote from: willieH on June 17, 2009, 03:45:07 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 02:34:57 AM
So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :grin:

Greetings,

this is all good and well, but when  teaching these things and one asks how did these adversities speak, what would you say?

Mar 5:9 Then He asked him, "What [is] your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name [is] Legion; for we are many." 

thanks
euty

Quote from: chuckt on June 17, 2009, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: willieH on June 17, 2009, 03:45:07 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 02:34:57 AM
So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :grin:

Greetings,

this is all good and well, but when  teaching these things and one asks how did these adversities speak, what would you say?

Mar 5:9 Then He asked him, "What [is] your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name [is] Legion; for we are many." 

thanks
euty

That's a confusing question no matter what position you take.

cp

Yea CP,
I'd like to know too.

Quote from: Doc on June 16, 2009, 11:27:20 PM

Quote from: willieH on June 16, 2009, 10:52:12 PM
willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Sorry for taking so long to get this reply to you...  :blush:

Quote from: claypot on May 26, 2009, 02:13:57 PM
Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

It is my opinion that Rev 21:14 is pretty much, universally misunderstood, and then those teach others their misunderstanding... and "voila", here we sit today...  with the LITERAL and carnal understanding of a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL notation...  :wacko2: :prankster:

Well God has taught me otherwise:

Here is how I see it...

Already leaning toward THIS LIFE as the Lake of FIRE, ...I once read J. Preston Eby's view of this verse, and his words coincided with the way I have come to observe Rev 21:14 -- (btw, to my knowledge, Eby doesn't profess that THIS LIFE is the LOF)

Rev 21:14 -- And death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd DEATH...

Most observe (because they have been falsely taught) that this "casting" takes place at the END of human history... as I see it, ...it takes place at it's BEGINNING...  :mshock:

The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, is NOT subject to Chronology... JESUS is noted to be the ALPHA and the OMEGA... in other words the END ...IS... the BEGINNING...

JESUS ...IS... simulataneously the END and the BEGINNING...

Eby noted the following example, about how the facts of a sentence can be rearranged in chronology, and NOT change the meaning:

(1)  An ISLAND is a body of LAND, surrounded by WATER...
(2)  A body of LAND surrounded by WATER, is an ISLAND...

Let us do this with Rev 21:14:

(1)  Rev 21:14  and Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd Death...

REVERSING the FACTS:

(2)  Rev 21:14  This is the 2nd Death -- Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE...

I have NOT removed or added anything... but the reversal of the facts gives affords a different perspective... If you "re-reverse" them, you will continue to have that NEW perspective of this verse...

The 2nd DEATH is the death of SINFUL Flesh (vessel of DISHONOR), which is brought into being by the state of man which is "DEAD" in the SPIRIT, and accordingly DISOBEYS the COMMAND of GOD which brings forth SIN and produces the 2nd Death...

JESUS noted LIVING and breathing men, as DEAD -- Matt 8:22 -- these were men which were NOT FOLLOWING Him... for He had just instructed the "scribe" to follow Him... leaving those who were "dead" to bury their "dead"...

...willieH  :happygrin:

So I have a question for you about this. If the second death (LOF) is death and hades being thrown into the LOF, then why are those part of the 1st resurrection not hurt of it?

Would anyone be hurt of death and hades being thrown into the LOF, regardless of the resurrection they were part of?

I am following your thinking here, but it seems to me to make the statement about not being hurt of the second death for those in the first resurrection redundant. Have I missed something?

I believe that those that don't get "hurt" of the second death are those that are because they are the FLAMES of the fire.  I'm one of those that believe the law exist though.  So that when I see Jesus calling His Apostles stones, I don't just see them as the stones of the Temple but they are also the Stones that get cast at sinners.  So I believe that Jesus is stoning all of us sinners (casting the Apostles at us).  These flames (those of the first resurrection) are those that are going to be instrumental in burning away our evil works. 

Paul

Quote from: chuckt on June 17, 2009, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: willieH on June 17, 2009, 03:45:07 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 17, 2009, 02:34:57 AM
So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :grin:

Greetings,

this is all good and well, but when  teaching these things and one asks how did these adversities speak, what would you say?

Mar 5:9 Then He asked him, "What [is] your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name [is] Legion; for we are many." 

thanks
euty

I would also say that many things are personified in Gods world so personifying the way our carnal thougths are expreseed in this manner is no surprise to me.

I mean who is this wisdom character who walks around crying in the streets?

cp

Ya lost me there CP
wisdom character? you me Jesus?

Yea, and I don't know CP.
The scripts don't imply personification of the swine.
That seems more of a reflex than a suicide.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 18, 2009, 02:24:02 AM
Yea, and I don't know CP.
The scripts don't imply personification of the swine.
That seems more of a reflex than a suicide.

I'm kind of thinking it's not personifying the swine as it is a personification of how depraved a carnal mind can become. I am legion. I'm not saying the pigs are a talking, I'm saying this is an outward manifestation on an inward reality.

Hmmmmmmm. Just thinking out loud.

cp

I am legion = they are one.
Yea, I get that.

Quote from: claypot on June 18, 2009, 02:13:23 AM
I mean who is this wisdom character who walks around crying in the streets? cp

:cloud9: Mother/sister.......which is why Song of Solomon makes a reference to "my sister (Christ's), my spouse (helpmeet of Father)". Wisdom, she was there before the foundation of the world. Pull up everything on wisdom, to start. And then get ready for an earthquake and a new can of "worms" to be opened.  :laughing7: Blessings.....

I saw john 12:47 posted earlier.  I feel posting the verse by its self leaves the verse without a context. And the message and be miss interpreted. This is still a segment and should be read in the entirety of the book of John. 

John12:47-50
47 "If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.

Welcome madmatan,
Thank you for sharing in our discussion forum. :Peace2:

After reading this post going back in time to 2009 I sure do miss WillieH and now Whitewings. :bsad: