Hi guys!
Do angels have freewill? Anyone here believe the "Satan was an angel called Lucifer who fell and took many angels with him" story?
So we're getting back to freewill? Just as Judas (to me) had no freewill in the betrayal, I don't think the angels had free will when they "abandoned their posts". All just part of God's plan for their to be the juxtaposition of good vs. evil and for man to know the difference, When He is all in all, evil will be no more. :2c:
I don't believe satan was lucifer. I believe adam is, the man that made the nations tremble. The guardian cherub who covered. The king of babylon :2c:
You don't think Adam was the first man and just the first man? I do.
What do you mean Ded?
I was responding to your statement
" I believe adam is, the man that made the nations tremble. The guardian cherub who covered. The king of babylon "
Well seeing that there have only ever been 2 men, then I would agree with you. But he has many names. The old man, the man of sin, the beast, king of babylon.
I believe that if the word "angel" had been translated properly as "messenger in OT and NT, discussion of having a free will would be void. I don't believe the story about a "lucifer." And in my opinion, " I believe adam is, the man that made the nations tremble. " is much closer to a truth. :dsunny:
freedom is being conformed to the image of Christ, the ultimate messenger. once sonship is yours, your freedom is to do the things that please the Father of spirits. Both men and angels are spirits and messengers. If any will is free, it is because they have been drawn into a union of purpose and spirit with the God from whom every spirit is breathed.
Amen!
Thanks Guys!
helps with the studying I'm currently doing :friendstu:
I personally lean more towards the Adam story too, but I am in the midst of study so only time will tell!
MissZ, here are 3 word studies that I did that all kind of go together. Hope it helps
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/luciferadam/
http://tentmaker.org/forum/book-of-revelation/carnal-nature-and-mark-of-the-beast/msg128913/#msg128913
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/covering-cast-over-all-people/msg133860/#msg133860
You legend ! :thumbsup:
Thanks a heap!
In occult circles it's said there was first the dragon gods whose offspring was the serpent gods, and that it was the wise serpent gods which seeded the earth, produced mankind and is guiding their evolution. A mean spirited god, they say, usurped the planet or ruler-ship. And it was a serpent benefactor which came and brought liberation and enlightenment (freedom) to Eve in the original earth garden.
- L. Ron Hubbard (founder of Scientology) and Aleister Crowley worked together many(?) years ago, doing rituals to bring wise beings from another dimension through portals to the 'earth plane'. They said they brought through an entity they called Lam. He looked a lot like the big eyed green e.t.'s (extra terrestrials) so popular as an image a few years back, only he was grey, and came first, before the green ones. Myself, I think we have plenty of dark entities active upon planet Earth already! And they don't need any help, nor portals or doorways.
- Is it Jude (or one of the Peters) which says "the angels which left their first place, are in chains waiting judgment" (/results!) "The chains" I figure is because once a being becomes imPerfect, they cannot reverse their course and make their self again perfect, and yes it becomes a pit, or tartarus (an abyss actually out of which who knows what can proceed, namely hitlers and the like for one thing, rev 9:2).
- A few years back I did some research on the roots and forming of the un and found it to be more or less a religious undertaking: http://modernhistoryproject.org/mhp?Article=UNSpirit - "The Spiritual Impulse Behind the United Nations" - Lucis Trust, the Great Invocation, and the ultimate purpose of the U.N. -- by: Ida Urso, 1995-05-13, source: Aquarian Age Community, Quote: "Since its inception, the United Nations organization has had a "spiritual purpose" well beyond its function as a secular globalist bureaucracy, as this talk given at the Arcane School Conference in honor of its 50th anniversary makes clear. The unfamiliar terms used ("the Great Invocation", "the Plan", "the Hierarchy", the "Tibetan Master", "Triangles of Light", "World Servers", etc.) are all based on the theosophical works of Alice Bailey and the Lucis Trust, which is closely affiliated with the U.N. Follow the links for further information." There's lots of info that can be googled, Alice Bailey, Madame Blavatsky, Lucis Trust and their meditation room at the U.N.. "Lucis Trust is a powerful institution that enjoys "Consultative Status" with the United Nations, which permits it to have a close working relationship with the U.N., including a seat on the weekly sessions, but most importantly, influence with powerful business and national leaders throughout the world... "
:2c: smile: [PART 2 ]I read lots like this, including in Wikipedia, but this site
[ http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Lucis_Trust.htm ] said it best..
Quote: " World Goodwill is a non-governmental organization (NGO) accredited with the United Nations while its parent, Lucis Trust, enjoys the prestigious "consultative status" afforded those non-governmental organizations on the roster of the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). Increasingly, powerful deep pocket NGO's, which are neither elected nor accountable, are received as the voice of "civil society." Those NGO's, which the United Nations selectively elevates to "consultative status," are called upon by ECOSOC as advisors representative of civil society. Both World Goodwill and Lucis Trust are engaged in Earth Charter advocacy. World Goodwill's spirituality is patently pagan. The following declaration is taken from their promotional material.
"During both the full moon and new moon periods there is there is a similar emphasis on the work of energy distribution in meditation .... we consciously align with the rhythmic pattern of energy flow each month, we become a part of a planetary meditative process carried forward at all levels of consciousness and with great creative potential for anchoring the seeds of the coming the coming civilization and the germ of the new culture."
If World Goodwill so unblushingly advocates neo-pagan meditative practices, its overt promotion of an occult "plan" for the governing of the universe is nothing short of chilling:
"There is an inner government of the planet known under such different names as the spiritual Hierarchy, the society of Illumined Minds, or Christ and his Church, according to various religious traditions. Humanity is never left without spiritual guidance or direction under the Plan... The widespread expectation that we approach the "age of Maitreya," as it is known in the East, when the World Teacher and present head of the spiritual Hierarchy, the Christ, will reappear among humanity to sound the keynote of the new age.... There are millions of mentally alert men and women in all parts of the world who are on rapport with the Plan and work to give it expression. They are people in whom the consciousness of humanity as one interdependent unit is alive and active... These beliefs give a new dimension to spiritual reality .... They provide opportunity for cooperation with the spiritual evolution of humanity... there is no group so likely to ensure that humanity achieves this most difficult goal as the men and women of goodwill .... requiring only courage... to initiate action to prepare for the New World Order."
Alice Bailey, Lucis Trust, Madame Blavatsky Bailey's tutor/teacher.. and many other occult connections to the u,n... Lucis Trust originally was a division of Lucifer Publishing (or vice versa) and company of Alice Bailey active in creating the U.N. meditation room and writing the famous "invocation" embraced by the U.N... and much more..
Sorry, just one more :smile:
Quotes by Blavatsky"
One of the most hidden secrets involves the so-called fall of Angels. Satan and his rebellious host will thus prove to have become the direct Saviours and Creators of divine man. Thus Satan, once he ceases to be viewed in the superstitious spirit of the church, grows into the grandiose image. It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God. Satan (or Lucifer) represents the Centrifugal Energy of the Universe, this ever-living symbol of self-sacrifice for the intellectual independence of humanity. "----Sister H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine Pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533.
ALICE BAILEY (student of Blavatsky)
Read more: http://www.disclose.tv/forum/hp-blavatsky-alice-bailey-lucius-trust-u-n-t74055.html#ixzz2MiXE529j
Well stated, Marie. We Christians, Jews, and Muslims are slated for extermination, but I believe God will step in at the right moment. BTW, if memory serves, the lobby of the UN building in New York contains a large pagan (Sumerian/Babylonian?) statue.
Marie - you're certainly free to read whatever you like - but why in the world would you choose to read occult stuff? Is there some truth there that you think Father has hidden from you or wants you to know by working through an occultist? Is it a desire to know the future? I can appreciate that. I'd like the powerball numbers for next week but I don't know if I'd take them if they were offered to me with a person that in the old testament would have been put to death, that we are told not to associate with and to pay no attention to. (OT)
Marie, I appreciate your expo'se on the roots of the religious occult
practices at the UN..especially so..that they are ready to move and
NWO is emerging.
Yes, Marie, some subjects are best delved into only so far as to see that they are error...I know, been there and done that.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 06, 2013, 02:05:30 PM
Marie - you're certainly free to read whatever you like - but why in the world would you choose to read occult stuff? Is there some truth there that you think Father has hidden from you or wants you to know by working through an occultist? Is it a desire to know the future? I can appreciate that. I'd like the powerball numbers for next week but I don't know if I'd take them if they were offered to me with a person that in the old testament would have been put to death, that we are told not to associate with and to pay no attention to. (OT)
hi Ded, you must have misread my post.. I study, 2nd to the Bible, history and also world institutions insofar as they affect history (the overall drama) and also Bible prophecy.. My post was an expose on Lucis Trust
closely related to the U.N. and its formation, and branched off from Lucifer Trust, or Publishing.. The idea being - are the fallen angels, Lucifer and 1/3 which fell like lightning, or is it metaphor. Some of the studies (I feel) the Lord has led me to and in, is what so called Lucerferians believe.. It's quite chilling, except of course we know God wins(!) :smile: In that crowd (which
btw are involved with the UN, a growing global governance(rev 13:1-10) "Lucifer" is referred to as savior and also as the HS! So is Lucifer real or metaphor merely alive in mankind? (Also to this group, scripture is metaphor.) To me. being so very very active in the world, means fallen angels, hidden forces, spiritual conspiracy, unclean spirits, dark entities, are not metaphor. I believe all this information is important, as the U.N is also a gathering world spirituality which is very much a danger. Even if we know God wins, I strongly believe we should know such a thing, so we can warn others, namely, and mostly, my own grand kids who I feel will have to deal with it far more than we do presently. :smile:
OK - was just curious and feel led by God so that's all that matters. I guess I was concerned mainly because I read a lot of that occult stuff when I was into new age (which is very similar) just kinda the light side of occultism(in appearance.) :Peace2:
Thanks Ded (and also for your concern:).. I guess what it was, was the occult connection to the U.N. :smile:
Thanks, Marie
If you haven't already seen it, this video about what's really happened in America may blow you away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klwWcp9eiPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klwWcp9eiPw)
Very interesting! Thanks! :Chinscratch: I do believe there is more goes on behind the scenes than any of us know and that world dominion is much farther along than we realize. I think of the two super powers of rev ch 13, verses 1-10 as a world body(beast) and verses 11-18 as a specific political office, a head, which actually caused the world power to expire when it didn't, after all, sign on. This office is pinpointed by "fire brought from the sky in the sight of men" which causes them to (re)make the image of the beast/governing power. This two horned, two office, office (of man) breathes life into the image of the governing power.. will breathe power and authority into it (now, or then, that is, openly powerful and with much authority, now openly) verse 15.. :2c:
God is the actor. Satan is the reacter. When Moses was coming the enemy tried to anticipate and destroy the plan of G0d but he failed because God is in control. When Jesus was born Satan tried to anticipate and murder the coming Messiah and Rachel wept for her children but he failed because God was in control, not the adversary- or man. When Jesus was slain the principalities and powers rejoiced at first, because they did not understand the hidden wisdom of God. When God decided to restore Israel to the land the enemy attempted to destroy the plan of God but he failed again, as usual, because God has an answer. In this generation, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness have gathered around the Lord and His anointed, but the God of glory thunders. He holds them in derision. He has an answer. It is His voice that will be heard. It is His righteousness that will be exalted. Get on the roof, rejoice, for your redemption draws near. As it was i the days of Noah. As it was in Sodom. Deliverance is at hand. Victory is already settled in the heavens. It is Finished.
MissZ, I get that there are angels; I also get there is a heavenly host (in aramaic = army). Are the two the same thing? Is everything in heavan either God or angel? If so, I can see the validity of your question. If there is more to a heavenly host, then is your question something else?
Just my opinion, but since the Bible does not mention any beings other than angels in heaven and since only angels were mentioned in the book of Genesis, I believe at this time, there is just the Father, Son and angels. :dontknow:
I re-read my post and thought, "What was I thinking??" Pretty bad when someone doesn't make sense to themselves :laughing7: :Peace2:
What about the saints who were resurrected when Jesus gave up the ghost?(Mt 27:50-53)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.
(Heb 12:22-25)
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
(Eph 4:8)
It appears to me that Jesus brought some folks home with Him in the ascension.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2013, 03:36:13 AM
It appears to me that Jesus brought some folks home with Him in the ascension.
I recall that was taught in the SDA church - brought to Heaven and presented to the Father as firstfruits. The SDA church is heavy into types, shadows, and fulfillments.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2013, 03:36:13 AM
What about the saints who were resurrected when Jesus gave up the ghost?(Mt 27:50-53)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.
(Heb 12:22-25)
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
(Eph 4:8)
It appears to me that Jesus brought some folks home with Him in the ascension.
Eagle, I don't see anywhere here that He leads them to Heaven.
Could you tell me which version you used for the quote from Hebrews. Every version I checked has a variation of 'he led captivity captive...' I didn't find a version which said 'captive a host of captives'.
Thanks
The quote is from the New American Standard. But I agree there is nothing conclusive about that verse. I am not trying to build a case for anything. I am just saying there is some evidence for an alternate conclusion.
Where is Enoch.
Where is Elijah.
Where is Moses.
What about the resurrected saints from Matthew. Where are they?
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2013, 05:49:46 AM
The quote is from the New American Standard. But I agree there is nothing conclusive about that verse. I am not trying to build a case for anything. I am just saying there is some evidence for an alternate conclusion.
Where is Enoch.
Where is Elijah.
Where is Moses.
What about the resurrected saints from Matthew. Where are they?
Oh, I concur. I was just checking the words. Got the verse, thanks.
I think ecclesiastes had the answer when it basically said, the body goes into the ground at death and the spirit returns from whence it came(back to God) A small thing for God to take the bodies of Enoch Moses, Elijah, etc and bury their bodies deep in the earth so as not to be dug up and venerated like some catholics do of some saints bones. I don't know what to think about the verses where it seems the bodies went to heaven. I'm not omitting the possibility of another dimension entirely unseen by us (current)mortals. :Peace2:
:thumbsup: I believe Paul touched on that when he spoke of 'not all of us shall die'
but be 'changed' in the twinkling of an eye. Also,Jesus testimony about..if you believe
you will never die, or if you do die,ye shall live..I believe He was referring to the same thing.
...when the disciples were speaking among themselves in regard to just 'who" would not die..
.........Jesus counseled them...that of something was His will..what was that to them....they
were to follow Him.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 08, 2013, 08:33:59 AM
I think ecclesiastes had the answer when it basically said, the body goes into the ground at death and the spirit returns from whence it came(back to God) A small thing for God to take the bodies of Enoch Moses, Elijah, etc and bury their bodies deep in the earth so as not to be dug up and venerated like some catholics do of some saints bones. I don't know what to think about the verses where it seems the bodies went to heaven. I'm not omitting the possibility of another dimension entirely unseen by us (current)mortals. :Peace2:
I am not either. I am simply saying that there is evidence for an alternate view. Ecclesiastes gives a general truth as do many other verses about death. Yet we see, as in so many cases, that the history- HIS STORY- presents exceptions we cannot explain so easily in order to prevent our wrapping it all up in a nice little bow and handing it out like a textbook.
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel
(messenger) which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
(Rev 22:8-9)
This messenger was not an angel. The heavens were opened and John saw "visions of God". John mistook the "messenger" as, perhaps, the Lord(perhaps because of the glory attending all beings in the higher heavens)- or some angel and fell on His face to worship.
The messenger refused him and clearly staed that he was a fellowservant of "his brethren the prophets". Is this an angel(imo definitely not). Is is a man of God, perhaps...... certainly any reasonable mind could read it that way. :o)
OR that even though this angel (messenger) was NOT a man, he was indeed, a fellowservant like the brethren the prophets. Since they also were messengers of God. and revelation has a lot of "LIKE" in it since the heavenly language is not yet available to describe the humanly indescribable. :dontknow:
Malak (OT) can also mean someone despatched as a deputy. Could this be the sense in which he was a fellow servant. In the NT angelos can mean someone who leads someone else. So, is it possible that at some level, angel is a function of purpose?
I also find this wording exquisite: "Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." (Rev 22:9) KJV. What I see is him telling John, 'don't worship me ... worship god'. What I don't see is a denial on the part of the speaker, that he is an angel. :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 09, 2013, 03:44:44 PM
OR that even though this angel (messenger) was NOT a man, he was indeed, a fellowservant like the brethren the prophets. Since they also were messengers of God. and revelation has a lot of "LIKE" in it since the heavenly language is not yet available to describe the humanly indescribable. :dontknow:
Maybe, but I posted the verse(Rev 22:8,9) and it says
I am thy fellow servant and
OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS.As I read it "like" doesnt enter into it.
Sometimes our brain refuses to read what's in directly front of our face in order to preserve our theology :dunno2: (No offense intended :o)
Jesus speaks of the children of the resurrection being like the angels....the children of God.
with the tongues of men and angels ! a message of the gospel to be preached
Paul was a messenger and he said woe is me if I preach not the gospel , saying he was taken captive of Christ
1Cr 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! :dsunny:
Wasn't Paul "bought with a price?" In my mind (which is rarely correct) that is a big difference than being taken captive. I guess it doesn't matter if we're only talking about the free will man doesn't have. :laughing7:
Luke 4;18 this is how He did it[take captivity captive] preach good news to poor..
proclaim freedom for prisoners..recovery of sight for blind..release oppressed..
proclaim year of Lord's Favour. our spiritual captivity taken cpative[[ as lawbreakers
condemned under law.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 10, 2013, 08:29:26 PM
Wasn't Paul "bought with a price?" In my mind (which is rarely correct) that is a big difference than being taken captive. I guess it doesn't matter if we're only talking about the free will man doesn't have. :laughing7:
Hi Ded Paul He proclaimed that indeed he was a bondservant/prisoner of Jesus Christ
as well as bought with a price ... being made captive /prisoner many times he said this
Strong's G1198 - desmios δέσμιος
Transliteration
desmios
Pronunciation
de's-mē-os (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
From δεσμός (G1199)
TDNT Reference
2:43,145
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) bound, in bonds, a captive, a prisoner Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Phm 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy [our] brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
Phm 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
I can only see we are a prisoner to sin
or Jesus ,being bought back by Jesus [price His blood= Life ] one or the other making us dead to the world in Christ
or dead to God because sins wages is death , But Jesus redeems us to Himself becoming our Lord and master :Peace2:
Strong's G3084 - lytroō λυτρόω
Transliteration
lytroō
Pronunciation
lü-tro'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From λύτρον (G3083)
TDNT Reference
4:349,543
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to release on receipt of ransom
2) to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom
a) to liberate
b) to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom
c) to redeem
d) to deliver: from evils of every kind, internal and external
so your right Ded and yet the other is also right captive and prisoner are synonymous :Peace2:
I hadn't seen that before. Thank you :Peace2:
Here is a must-see scripture verse:
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
This seems to be saying that Satan was created evil, since he was a murderer from the beginning. If he had been a good angel who later fell, then could this passage be true? What's your take on this?
Another thought:
I have become aware that some people believe that Satan is not a person, but is rather self-will. I haven't subscribed to that because I haven't found any scripture to back that up, but it is an interesting thought worthy of further study. What do y'all think?
This question has staunch supporters on both sides on this forum :o) I believe Satan is a being, otherwise the story of the temptation of Christ is an allegory. I believe it is literal history. The Lamb had no "evil self"- He was the Lamb without spot, never conceiving or being penetrated by temptation or sin. IMO this alone destroys the idea that Satan is a manifestation of the carnal nature.
Good thought JB.
If there is NO scripture to back up any idea or interpretation, chances are it's false.
Look at Jude . Archangel Michael is said to argue with Satan over the body of Moses... doesn't sound like
Satan is any mans' self will at all. :Peace2:
And a battle occurred in heaven. Michael and his messengers battle with the dragon, and the dragon battles, and its messengers. (Rv 127, Concordant Literal)
Other than "heaven" being a very different place than cartoon Christianity portrays, there must be opposing wills for there to be a war. God's nature being peace, "He is our peace," it is not likely this antagonism is God's work. This leaves us with enough autonomy among the angels, enough freedom of will to produce different beliefs, even schools of thought and armies under differing banners.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on March 20, 2013, 10:27:50 PM
Here is a must-see scripture verse:
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
This seems to be saying that Satan was created evil, since he was a murderer from the beginning. If he had been a good angel who later fell, then could this passage be true? What's your take on this?
Right on brother. Satan was evil from the beginning, he did not start out good and turn evil. Satan is a large part of our humanity/flesh and Jesus was every bit human as he was the Son of God. One advantage Jesus had over all of humanity is that He is the only person to have been totally filled with the Holy Spirit. In our flesh it is not possible to achieve the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We must put off this flesh/mortality and put on immortality. :2c:
My understanding is, angels do not have free will, neither do we. Satan is not Lucifer. It says Lucifer was a man. (Isaiah 15:16) Also in verse 19 it says Lucifer "but thou art cast out of thy grave. I think this man was the king of Tyre.
CHB
It's true that God is in complete control. But He still endowed rationality.
If no one has 'free will' God carries out all wrong choices and flaws? The world is right? Every evil ever done was chosen by God?
Was "David" ever used as a type of "Messiah"?
God gave thinking ability.
Logic - thinking ability includes being able to choose.
If ya don't believe kings and beasts in bible prophecy are types, then don't even bother reading the rest of this post, and likely no need to read prophecy at all. :wacko2:
Who was the "covering cherub"? of Ezekiel 28:13-15 (but if the only pertinent verse is 12, forget it, as 13-15 does not fit 12
"cherub" -
K@ruwb
Cherub = "blessing" an apparent exilic settlement in Babylonia from which some persons of doubtful extraction returned with Zerubbabel
Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version - K@ruwb
K@ruwb
Cherub = "blessing" an apparent exilic settlement in Babylonia from which some persons of doubtful extraction returned with Zerubbabel
Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard - K@ruwb
K@ruwb
cherub, cherubim (pl) an angelic being as guardians of Eden as flanking God's throne as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)
Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version - K@ruwb
"covering" =
Cakak
(Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover (Qal) to screen, cover to cover oneself protector (participle) (Hiphil) to screen, cover to cover, defecate (euphemism) (Qal) to cover, lay over to weave together (Qal) to weave together (Pilpel) to weave, weave together
Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard - Cakak
Cakak
(Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover (Qal) to screen, cover to cover oneself protector (participle) (Hiphil) to screen, cover to cover, defecate (euphemism) (Qal) to cover, lay over to weave together (Qal) to weave together (Pilpel) to weave, weave together
Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version - Cakak
- 2 -
Babylon grows to cover the earth.. goes global, is $iTy Babble-On with all man's cities of dark streets, garish avenues and dark alleys.. We can tell this by Rev 18:15 and 11 and the list of products sold right down to sex slavery one of the side effects in her golden cup. This babble, or rather her forehead/psyche is responsible for all slain on earth 18:24
Is "David" ever used as a type of "messiah" in Bible prophecy? (for example)
The king of babylon of Isaiah 14 "made the earth to tremble.. shook kingdoms.. made the world a wilderness and overthrew earth's cities" is too big to be a mere human king only.. when it comes to metaphor - types, would be it :smile:
the revelation visions are pretty elaborate to be mere metaphor (for things already covered elsewhere in the scriptures)
"And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand, and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary" (translated Satan/opposer) "and did bind him a thousand years, and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after that he must be loosed a little season." - Revelation 20:1-3
When Jesus said this - "`I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen`" - Luke 10:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) he meant mere metaphor? :umnick:
"How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations, And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north. I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High. Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit. Thy beholders look to thee, to thee they attend, Is this the man causing the earth to tremble, Shaking kingdoms? He hath made the world as a wilderness, And his cities he hath broken down, Of his bound ones he opened not the house." - Isaiah 14:12-17
(Is 14:11 - "'Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.")
Why all the fancy talk just to talk about.. what? if it's mere metaphor? If God is the author of all evil (rather than indirectly by endowing thinking ability) - what is there to metaphor about? Man's flaws? why?
I don't see how plain topics discussed openly in scripture need to be addressed again by metaphor.. why?
Oops! One more thing! :hiya:
"..was a murderer from the beginning" (imo) of the world.. of murder..
#746 was used -
Arche
beginning, origin the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause the extremity of a thing of the corners of a sail the first place, principality, rule, magistracy of angels and demons
Lexicons - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard - Arche
the verses: from Jn 8:43-45
"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. 44 You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me."
Quote from: marie glen}
If no one has 'free will' God carries out all wrong choices and flaws? The world is right? Every evil ever done was chosen by God?/quote]
It does say that God makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. He directs our steps. It is God who works in us BOTH to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.
CHB
It's true that God is in complete control. But He still endowed thinking ability.
Are we robots? The angels "left their first place" station..
Does God have to control every single thing in order to prove His point? In order to bring about what He is designing? What is He designing? An ant farm?
What is the purpose of life as we presently know it?
He directs the steps of a 'good' man.. some vessels of honor/salvation during this life/His truth proving drama, and some of dishonor.. no good story has only one 'side'
He is in full control.. No doubt about it. :smile:
P.S. - and since no one chooses their own way (vessels of honor and some of dishonor) all inherit eternal life.. and the resurrection of those who die in their sins, will catch up to the resurrection of those who died believing.. but at the same time man has still wandered from God..
[quote marie glen]
He is in full control.. No doubt about it.[/quote]
How can God be in full control, if we are partly in control?
CHB
the 'lot' is cast into the lap,but,it's every decision is of the Lord.
this nullify's CHANCE...anything happening not by design.
and so,too, man's lot..both down here in the good/evil exercize..and in the Heavenly perfect realm
is of His explicit design
Amen sheila,
CHB
regarding ;have angels got freewill. Jesus said..the children of the resurrection are like the angels
'children of God"..we have law of kinds..and nature. His children can not sin..for they are His
natural children and have inherited His nature. As such,they do only what they see their Father do
and are obediant children. Will they still honour their Father and Mother,and love their brothers
as themselves? Yes..even more abundantly..then we at present can imagine. Our Father will always
remain the Sovereign over His Family. Our Patriarch.
the characteristics and nature of God shall be in all His offspring. Incorruptible spirit clothed in an
incorruptible body. .
Awesome :cloud9:
..and won't it be nice, even ideal, when aLL freely choose to do aLL things God's way? Because they now have fuLL understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue :friendstu:
p.s.- what an aWeSome God we serve.. He didn't have to make us all as robots in order to be in FULL control of life and the universe.. and beyond :))
:hiya:
Marie,
We are not robots, we are dust. Dust thy art and dust thou shalt return. Mankind seems to forget that sometimes.
CHB
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2013, 09:01:40 PM
..and won't it be nice, even ideal, when aLL freely choose to do aLL things God's way? Because they now have fuLL understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue :friendstu:
p.s.- what an aWeSome God we serve.. He didn't have to make us all as robots in order to be in FULL control of life and the universe.. and beyond :))
:hiya:
:iagree: He gives us the ability to honor and worship him and the time it will take to convert every one of us willingly. Then every knee shall/will bow and every tongue willingly confess.
All of existence serves God's purpose.
When his purpose is done.
All will be in All.
Quote from: dajomaco on March 24, 2013, 06:30:04 PM
All of existence serves God's purpose.
When his purpose is done.
All will be in All.
Amen! and amen CHB and mplsfitter!