What's your take on Angels? Have they got "Freewill"?

[mplsfitter539]

Here is a must-see scripture verse:
John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

This seems to be saying that Satan was created evil, since he was a murderer from the beginning.  If he had been a good angel who later fell, then could this passage be true?  What's your take on this?

Right on brother. Satan was evil from the beginning, he did not start out good and turn evil. Satan is a large part of our humanity/flesh and Jesus was every bit human as he was the Son of God. One advantage Jesus had over all of humanity is that He is the only person to have been totally filled with the Holy Spirit. In our flesh it is not possible to achieve the fullness of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We must put off this flesh/mortality and put on immortality.  :2c:

[CHB]

My understanding is, angels do not have free will, neither do we. Satan is not Lucifer. It says  Lucifer was a man. (Isaiah 15:16) Also in verse 19 it says Lucifer "but thou art cast out of thy grave. I think this man was the king of Tyre.

CHB

[marie glen]

It's true that God is in complete control. But He still endowed rationality.

If no one has 'free will' God carries out all wrong choices and flaws? The world is right? Every evil ever done was chosen by God?

Was "David" ever used as a type of "Messiah"?

God gave thinking ability.

Logic - thinking ability includes being able to choose.

If ya don't believe kings and beasts in bible prophecy are types, then don't even bother reading the rest of this post, and likely no need to read prophecy at all. :wacko2:

Who was the "covering cherub"? of Ezekiel 28:13-15 (but if the only pertinent verse is 12, forget it, as 13-15 does not fit 12

"cherub" -
    K@ruwb
    Cherub = "blessing" an apparent exilic settlement in Babylonia from which some persons of doubtful extraction returned with Zerubbabel
    Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version - K@ruwb
    K@ruwb
    Cherub = "blessing" an apparent exilic settlement in Babylonia from which some persons of doubtful extraction returned with Zerubbabel
    Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard - K@ruwb
    K@ruwb
    cherub, cherubim (pl) an angelic being as guardians of Eden as flanking God's throne as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)
    Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version - K@ruwb

"covering" =
    Cakak
    (Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover (Qal) to screen, cover to cover oneself protector (participle) (Hiphil) to screen, cover to cover, defecate (euphemism) (Qal) to cover, lay over to weave together (Qal) to weave together (Pilpel) to weave, weave together
    Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard - Cakak
    Cakak
    (Qal) to hedge, fence about, shut in to block, overshadow, screen, stop the approach, shut off, cover (Qal) to screen, cover to cover oneself protector (participle) (Hiphil) to screen, cover to cover, defecate (euphemism) (Qal) to cover, lay over to weave together (Qal) to weave together (Pilpel) to weave, weave together
    Lexicons - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version - Cakak

[marie glen]

- 2 -

Babylon grows to cover the earth.. goes global, is $iTy Babble-On with all man's cities of dark streets, garish avenues and dark alleys.. We can tell this by Rev 18:15 and 11 and the list of products sold right down to sex slavery one of the side effects in her golden cup. This babble, or rather her forehead/psyche is responsible for all slain on earth 18:24

Is "David" ever used as a type of "messiah" in Bible prophecy? (for example)

The king of babylon of Isaiah 14 "made the earth to tremble.. shook kingdoms.. made the world a wilderness and overthrew earth's cities" is too big to be a mere human king only.. when it comes to metaphor - types, would be it :smile: 

the revelation visions are pretty elaborate to be mere metaphor (for things already covered elsewhere in the scriptures)
"And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand, and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary" (translated Satan/opposer) "and did bind him a thousand years, and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after that he must be loosed a little season." - Revelation 20:1-3

When Jesus said this - "`I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen`" - Luke 10:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) he meant mere metaphor? :umnick:

"How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations, And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north. I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High. Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit. Thy beholders look to thee, to thee they attend, Is this the man causing the earth to tremble, Shaking kingdoms? He hath made the world as a wilderness, And his cities he hath broken down, Of his bound ones he opened not the house." - Isaiah 14:12-17

(Is 14:11 - "'Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.")

Why all the fancy talk just to talk about.. what? if it's mere metaphor? If God is the author of all evil (rather than indirectly by endowing thinking ability) - what is there to metaphor about? Man's flaws? why?

I don't see how plain topics discussed openly in scripture need to be addressed again by metaphor.. why?

[marie glen]

Oops! One more thing!  :hiya:

"..was a murderer from the beginning" (imo) of the world.. of murder..

#746 was used -
       Arche
    beginning, origin the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause the extremity of a thing of the corners of a sail the first place, principality, rule, magistracy of angels and demons
    Lexicons - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard - Arche

the verses: from Jn 8:43-45

"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. 44 You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me."

[CHB]

/quote]

It does say that God makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. He directs our steps. It is God who works in us BOTH to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.

CHB

[marie glen]

It's true that God is in complete control. But He still endowed thinking ability.

Are we robots? The angels "left their first place" station..

Does God have to control every single thing in order to prove His point? In order to bring about what He is designing? What is He designing? An ant farm?

What is the purpose of life as we presently know it?

He directs the steps of a 'good' man.. some vessels of honor/salvation during this life/His truth proving drama, and some of dishonor.. no good story has only one 'side'

He is in full control.. No doubt about it. :smile:

[marie glen]

P.S. - and since no one chooses their own way (vessels of honor and some of dishonor) all inherit eternal life.. and the resurrection of those who die in their sins, will catch up to the resurrection of those who died believing.. but at the same time man has still wandered from God..

[CHB]

[quote marie glen]
He is in full control.. No doubt about it.[/quote]

How can God be in full control, if we are partly in control?

CHB

[sheila]

 the 'lot' is cast into the lap,but,it's every decision is of the Lord.

   this nullify's CHANCE...anything happening not by design.

   and so,too, man's lot..both down here in the good/evil exercize..and in the Heavenly perfect realm

   is of His explicit design

[CHB]

Amen sheila,

CHB

[sheila]

regarding ;have angels got freewill.  Jesus said..the children of the resurrection are like the angels

     'children of God"..we have law of kinds..and nature.  His children can not sin..for they are His

   natural children and have inherited His nature.  As such,they do only what they see their Father do

  and are obediant children. Will they still honour their Father and Mother,and love their brothers

  as themselves? Yes..even more abundantly..then we at present can imagine. Our Father will always

remain the Sovereign over His Family. Our Patriarch.

   the characteristics and nature of God shall be in all His offspring.  Incorruptible spirit clothed in an

incorruptible  body. .

[lomarah]

Awesome  :cloud9:

[marie glen]

..and won't it be nice, even ideal, when aLL freely choose to do aLL things God's way? Because they now have fuLL understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue  :friendstu:

p.s.- what an aWeSome God we serve.. He didn't have to make us all as robots in order to be in FULL control of life and the universe.. and beyond :))
:hiya:

[CHB]

Marie,

We are not robots, we are dust. Dust thy art and dust thou shalt return. Mankind seems to forget that sometimes.

CHB

[mplsfitter539]

..and won't it be nice, even ideal, when aLL freely choose to do aLL things God's way? Because they now have fuLL understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue  :friendstu:

p.s.- what an aWeSome God we serve.. He didn't have to make us all as robots in order to be in FULL control of life and the universe.. and beyond :))
:hiya:

:iagree: He gives us the ability to honor and worship him and the time it will take to convert every one of us willingly. Then every knee shall/will bow and every tongue willingly confess.

[dajomaco]

All of existence serves God's purpose.
When his purpose is done.
All will be in All.

[marie glen]

All of existence serves God's purpose.
When his purpose is done.
All will be in All.

Amen! and amen CHB and mplsfitter!